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Cosplay 101: Fabric Basics || MangoSirene

  Рет қаралды 106,935

MangoSirene

MangoSirene

Күн бұрын

If you're new to sewing, walking into your local hobby store to choose fabric for your next costume can be totally overwhelming! So in this episode of Cosplay 101, we're talking fabric basics to make your hunt for the perfect cosplay materials a bit less stressful. Tune in to learn about natural vs. synthetic fibers, weaves vs. knits, some of the most popular fabrics to use for cosplay, and how to choose what fabric to use for your next project!
There's a lot of info in this video that I pulled from the Garment Construction class I took in college, but if you'd like more reading, I recommend picking up a copy of the New Reader's Digest Complete Guide to Sewing: www.amazon.com/... (Which is truly a vital resource that every cosplayer should have on hand!)
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** COSPLAY 101 **
In each video, I'll be covering a different cosplay topic.
These videos will range from how-tos, tutorials, and discussions. :D
If you would like to vote on future topics for Cosplay 101, consider supporting this series and my channel on Patreon! / mangosirenee
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Subscribe for more cosplay videos, including work logs and tutorials!
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★ Tumblr: / mangosirene
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★ Twitter: / mangosirene
★ Facebook: / mangosirene
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♫ MUSIC ♫
"Morning Sun" - Nicolai Heidlas ( / vercittyfilms )
"Sunny Afternoon" - Nicolai Heidlas ( / vercittyfilms )
All music was used under the Creative Commons license.

Пікірлер: 138
@cassius4471
@cassius4471 8 жыл бұрын
I took notes on this video like a nerd at 1am. Damn I'm tired.
@angela-francescamejia1522
@angela-francescamejia1522 8 жыл бұрын
haha I did too xD
@tiny_star2271
@tiny_star2271 8 жыл бұрын
+Emmi Song It took me like and hour to take the notes
@tiny_star2271
@tiny_star2271 8 жыл бұрын
+Emmi Song It took me like and hour to take the notes
@AikaLove629
@AikaLove629 8 жыл бұрын
+Hannah Keifer why would you take notes :/
@cassius4471
@cassius4471 8 жыл бұрын
+AikaLove629 so if we needed something from this we didn't have to go back and forth with the video
@Stahlherz
@Stahlherz 8 жыл бұрын
I'm a clothing and textile technology student and have worked in this field for a while and I really have to say, this was so well made!!
@whiteasbleach
@whiteasbleach 8 жыл бұрын
You forgot "itchy" under the tulle section XD
@JessePhoenix
@JessePhoenix 8 жыл бұрын
A lot of things there that has been inside my head but never quite connected for me, but now it all makes sense, yay! Also, I actually let slip an audible squee when I saw that picture of Balsa! No one I know has ever heard of Seirei no Moribito, so I'm sooo happy whenever I see other people who knows about it
@MangoSirene
@MangoSirene 8 жыл бұрын
+mistiannyi It's one of my favorite shows~! I'm hoping to get started on a cosplay of her after Katsucon next year :D
@JessePhoenix
@JessePhoenix 8 жыл бұрын
+MangoSirene That's awesome! She's been in my "want to cosplay" folder ever since I started, but I'm still looking for the perfect wool for her (I'm going to die, but I want wool and linen for that costume).. I'm sooo looking forward to seeing your version now!
@naluheartneel1656
@naluheartneel1656 8 жыл бұрын
Yas moribito fans
@naluheartneel1656
@naluheartneel1656 8 жыл бұрын
+MangoSirene Also Mango quick question! if I was wanted to do alibaba's from magi (his gladiator attire; 2nd outfit) would it be alright to use a linen fabric instead of cotton? It's durable and lightweight and may be close to what they were wearing since they are always traveling and battling. But you listed linen as upholstery and said to use cotton for Balsa whom is also a traveling warrior. :0 help please.
@leahiddlebarnes
@leahiddlebarnes 6 жыл бұрын
I studied fashion but I forgot some of this facts! Haha! My memory feel refreshed. 😃
@pocketdenizen5728
@pocketdenizen5728 5 жыл бұрын
you are an ANGEL holy carp. I knew like NOTHING about fabrics before watching this and I'd just kinda go into the store and pick out what feels correct which,, isn't always wise lmao.
@RM-nl9es
@RM-nl9es 8 жыл бұрын
Your hand writing is so pretty 😱 thanks for the video!!!
@legendarymudkip2096
@legendarymudkip2096 8 жыл бұрын
This is a godsend! I've been wanting to cosplay for a couple years but nobody's been able to tell me about different fabrics for different purposes. I love you so much right now!
@sebastianlugo5781
@sebastianlugo5781 5 жыл бұрын
My biggest tip is to have a "worst case scenario budget". I always figure out everything I need, find it at the most obvious stores first (which is usually more expensive), then I go back in and try to find those same items for cheaper. It allows me to know that if I can't find something anywhere else, I have somewhere to turn to, plus it's SO satisfying to see how much money you shaved off. I just finished finding my cheaper options and shaved off a full $100 while finding products that feel more reputable (like finding a store that specialises in rhinestones rather than hoping Micheal's doesn't fuck me over).
@spindleblood
@spindleblood 6 жыл бұрын
Weave vs. Knit!!! Basic of basics. Took me a while to learn this....didn't really "realize" until I learned how to knit and weave separately, LOL.
@quietrioter
@quietrioter 8 жыл бұрын
-Making Relius Cosplay -Tries to find green moleskin for the lining on the cape -Checks Spandex World, Fabric.com, Jo-Anns and Fashion Fabrics. -No luck -Searches again thanks to info from Mango video Thanks Mango
@tamsinokumurataylor8462
@tamsinokumurataylor8462 7 жыл бұрын
This is really going to help with my Seven cosplay (from Mystic Messenger), I am sewing on the yellow/orange bits to the jacket because 1. The original jacket is expensive and I'm on quite a low budget and 2. I live in England, so we might get customs charges if we order it, which is really annoying. I already have a black zip up hoodie (I'm wearing it as I type this) and there is a fabric shop somewhere down town so I'll just get the yellow fabric from there! Thank you so much Nina!
@pocketsizedviking4555
@pocketsizedviking4555 5 жыл бұрын
This whole channel has been a life saver for me!
@EbonGra13
@EbonGra13 7 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this overview! Types of fabrics and how to choose them for your cosplays is something that I feel is often overlooked, even though it's one of the most important aspects of the garments! My mom taught me to sew when I was little, and she used to work in the textile industry so I was lucky that she taught me about different fabrics too. I'm post-college and working now, but I still go to her for advice when I'm not sure what to buy. Another really good piece of advice, is to take a picture of the end of the bolt (with the care instructions!) of any fabric you buy, so that you'll know how to properly wash it after conventions, and if you like the fabric and want to use more of it for a different costume, you'll know exactly what to look for :)
@jennadrake6011
@jennadrake6011 8 жыл бұрын
Wow!!! I'm new to cosplaying, and honestly this has been more help to me than my parents have. Thank you so much!!!
@abbyleona05
@abbyleona05 Жыл бұрын
i’m making a christmas themed tifa cosplay it’s my first time ever sewing and i decided to use stretchy red velvet fabric I HAD NO IDEA WHAT I WAS GETTING INTO. but it all worked out and it turned it very nice
@DannaDarling
@DannaDarling 8 жыл бұрын
I'm cosplaying now for over 7 years and I still can learn something from your videos! Great job!
@drew1054
@drew1054 7 жыл бұрын
Fleece looks perfect for lining sweaters.
@Sandy33569
@Sandy33569 8 жыл бұрын
This has been very helpful! Even as someone who no longer makes their own costumes, if I am working with a commissioner, or even more importantly, if I am purchasing a costume off of a Taobao store and I want to determine quality, knowing about fabrics and what could be a good choice and what is bad is good to know. I've been learning as I go and with someone I am commissioning my costume for, I had options and I was able to figure it out more easily because of some basic knowledge but I love these kinds of videos because I always learn something new. :)
@bonkbeep647
@bonkbeep647 8 жыл бұрын
Ahh I've recently started to make my cosplays instead of buying them (and buying them is totally fine, I just feel like I should be making my own), and this was super helpful! You're awesome!
@jichiie63
@jichiie63 8 жыл бұрын
This video was so helpful! Just in time for my next cosplay :D Great video!
@KristinaMarie96
@KristinaMarie96 8 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for putting all the time you do into these cosplay 101 videos. I really don't know of anyone else that does these, and it's really nice for those of us that don't have a clue where to start on thongs.
@featherhatter
@featherhatter 8 жыл бұрын
THANK YOU FOR THIS !! You just saved my life
@pathaorion
@pathaorion 7 жыл бұрын
I actually took notes on the fabrics and type of fabrics so I can keep this on hand when I need to pick the right fabric. Lots of help I can use
@emmadowney7210
@emmadowney7210 7 жыл бұрын
This is the helpful video that I really wanted, but no one else had posted! Thank you so much Nina! ☺
@narutogoldylocks
@narutogoldylocks 8 жыл бұрын
This video is sooooo helpful! My knowledge of fabrics is very minimal, and I've never known where to start to learn about them. Thank you, MangoSirene!
@silverdragonfour
@silverdragonfour 5 жыл бұрын
This video is a godsend. Thank you thank you thank you! I live making cosplay and I've got about 3 under my belt but I'm always so confused when picking out fabric! I'd just go by feel and usually pick the wrong thing lol. But this put everything in such simple and understandable terms! I feel like I actually know what to look for now!!
@WhazzupWasabi
@WhazzupWasabi 8 жыл бұрын
Lots of notes taken. This was a very helpful video. Could you possibly post a basic troubleshooting guide to sewing machines? I've looked but I can't find an easily understandable video to how to adjust (and fix) tension on a sewing machine. It would be very helpful. Thanks for the video!
@MarijaEnchantix
@MarijaEnchantix 8 жыл бұрын
I think those things depend on your machine really. Each manufacturer and model is different. If you want to understand it, the "hard" videos will be best because they actually explain what is happening and why. You know, makes you learn not only gives a ready answer on a silver plate :)
@kuroso4259
@kuroso4259 8 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for doing this! This is actually perfect, because I was trying to figure out which fabrics to use for my cosplay! Could you also do a "motivation" video? I think it would be highly appreciated by my friends and me xD
@wtora777
@wtora777 5 жыл бұрын
This is super useful!! It helps get you into the world of cosplay
@catyarbrough1682
@catyarbrough1682 5 жыл бұрын
This is the single most helpful video I’ve ever seen. Thank you!!
@lucybirchtree2526
@lucybirchtree2526 8 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much! I'm 13 and i just got a sewing machine, I can't wait t make my own cosplay outfits!!!
@wildxeyes
@wildxeyes 8 жыл бұрын
This video is so well done! Beautiful, visual, and comprehensive.
@kishochan92
@kishochan92 5 жыл бұрын
Would have been nice to see a breakthrough of what fabrics are good natural-sources wise, which were a thing that I had no real insight on until I studied clothing design and had a material assigment. Some are really bad towards animals, others are bad towards our water resources, and some are bad due to chemicals. For me this is personally not a huge dealbreaker, but it has made me think more about what I choose for my sewing projects, and I think that for some it might be a bigger deal than they've thought before. Great video however, now I feel like I know the actual weave names more on the fabrics I have used over the years.
@starleen1981
@starleen1981 8 жыл бұрын
I'm beginning my sewing adventure and this tutorial is extremely helpful for me. Thanks!
@thesilverchronicles9465
@thesilverchronicles9465 8 жыл бұрын
please make more of these videos!! i find them super helpful as im just starting out cosplay :) Love your channel!!
@shellebelle093
@shellebelle093 8 жыл бұрын
You have wonderful videos, so much helpful information! I know a lot about sewing but NOT a lot about cosplay, so you've given me a few good ideas to keep in mind. Thank you!
@ghoulpixels
@ghoulpixels 8 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much for making this Mango! I'm a beginner in sewing and making costumes and I needed these tips. - Kal
@kyanitecosplay7711
@kyanitecosplay7711 4 жыл бұрын
I took some notes on the fabric types and stuff. My head hurts now since is 9:32pm and i have a light glaring in my face. Taking a break and shall return soon. Edit: im back and have taken some paracetamol . All my notes are finished, thank you for such helpful videos ^^
@DantesCanto
@DantesCanto 7 жыл бұрын
I eat at that Cherry Blossom next to Jo-Anne's all the time!
@lazuligrotto5674
@lazuligrotto5674 8 жыл бұрын
This is sooo useful and helpful thankyou🤓🤓 such an amazing video!!!
@spindleblood
@spindleblood 6 жыл бұрын
Also wish there were more fabric options at big box stores. I cringe whenever I feel certain polyester fabrics. e___e but I realize you pretty much have to live in like NYC or LA to get a wide variety of awesome fabric... even the locally owned places around here (midwest) barely have any selection. I went to Mood once in L.A. and had such a major fabricgasm!!! If only they had more stores... until then it's swatch city online for me lol.
@basicwhitegirl1017
@basicwhitegirl1017 8 жыл бұрын
Wow, I have never understood any kind of fabric knowledge, its just been to complicate (Like math) But now it makes sens, amazing 8))
@marieprestegard2495
@marieprestegard2495 8 жыл бұрын
Ok, I know it looks cheep, but don't hate on velvet or chrused velvet like you say in this video. I make small jackets, plushies and I'm planning on making a onepiece out of this fabric. The indide of it is realy soft and comfy, and even if it looks cheep it is actualy cheep as well, I don't have that much monney and since I'm still not that confident in my sewing skills using cheep material makes it a little less frightening. My point is, it can be cute and affordable if your creative with it.
@sweetcan83
@sweetcan83 6 жыл бұрын
Marie Prestegård I totally agree with you!! I made a cape out of crushed velvet and it gave such a nice and beautiful look even though it look cheap!
@TeaforTinka
@TeaforTinka 8 жыл бұрын
One of the videos that I was waiting for! :) thanks so much for making this!
@nervousbumblebee
@nervousbumblebee 5 жыл бұрын
Wow, this is SO helpful!!
@CliffKarrow
@CliffKarrow 8 жыл бұрын
Nice, very helpful tips. Please do more like this. A video on sewing basics would be great too. I had to pause multiple times though; it went by too quick for me to read everything.
@TwilightsInferno1701
@TwilightsInferno1701 8 жыл бұрын
Thank you for these videos so much!!
@DisenchantedDeath
@DisenchantedDeath 8 жыл бұрын
this is perfect timing since I'm buying more fabric today xD
@txcjllyfsh
@txcjllyfsh 8 жыл бұрын
Ughhh thank you so much for this video...!!! 💜
@roxylynn109
@roxylynn109 7 жыл бұрын
this is a great video!! exactly what a beginner needs!
@ellesbellsxxx
@ellesbellsxxx 8 жыл бұрын
I'd love to see your sharon rainsworth cosplay!
@jordenb5906
@jordenb5906 8 жыл бұрын
Ugh! SO HELPFUL
@MISSnowWolf
@MISSnowWolf 8 жыл бұрын
Awesome video! in february i will buy my own sewing machine :) (yes it's far away i know) i will buy it from the money i will get for my bday. you help me out a lot with your videos
@irradix213
@irradix213 5 жыл бұрын
thank you, so i'm gonna have to embroider all the spider web? love it
@lizpinky1453
@lizpinky1453 8 жыл бұрын
Omigosh thank you so much for making this video!!!! It helps a ton!! OMG you're making Sharon from Pandora Hearts??!! So awesome!!!!!!!! I'm planning a Alice cosplay for next year! :D
@xXxakurokuxXx123
@xXxakurokuxXx123 8 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this video! I used to be nervous when going into a fabric store but now I'm not :3
@isabellablank1404
@isabellablank1404 8 жыл бұрын
Oh this was so helpful and I'm so glad my grandma works at a quilting shop so I can get a discount on some things😂
@CH-kr3wk
@CH-kr3wk 8 жыл бұрын
This is a really good and informative video. I love it!
@karidunne3541
@karidunne3541 7 жыл бұрын
extremely helpful, thank you for making this!
@thecosplay461
@thecosplay461 8 жыл бұрын
I started freaking out when I saw the picture of Hans from Rokka No Yuusha! Are you planning on doing a cosplay of him?
@MamotteLollpop123
@MamotteLollpop123 8 жыл бұрын
awesome vid,really helpful! 😁👍
@UmbraPrelaitor
@UmbraPrelaitor 8 жыл бұрын
Oh my gosh! I got so excited when I saw Balsa and Hans Humpty because they're so obscure! Question, What kind of fabric would be good for Hans? I'm actually planning on Cosplaying him but I can't come up with the right fabric to use.
@scp049hasbreachedcontianme9
@scp049hasbreachedcontianme9 8 жыл бұрын
I did a Balsa cosplay... I think it would be wise to line the thing next time.
@lea_chiin
@lea_chiin 8 жыл бұрын
OMG!! thank you soo much! :D :D I am going to make a new cosplay and was wondering about what fabric and so.. so Thanx!! :D
@Saisoo
@Saisoo 8 жыл бұрын
Thank you! 💜💚💙
@allisonmcnatt2841
@allisonmcnatt2841 10 ай бұрын
Thank you so much I had no idea wear to start😭
@moonchild971
@moonchild971 8 жыл бұрын
OMG thank you so much for this video! It really helped me
@amberproctor3996
@amberproctor3996 8 жыл бұрын
i love this
@roobunni
@roobunni 6 жыл бұрын
Sharon! From pandora hearts!
@mona9393
@mona9393 8 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this video! I often have problems with choosing a fabric but now it should be working! >w
@sevenover42
@sevenover42 5 жыл бұрын
boy how I wish we have a similar store like Joann's here where I live
@AoiKitsu
@AoiKitsu 8 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this video Mango! I'm a beginner to making my own cosplays. I bought my first cosplay (Please don't judge) and I feel like I should make my next one. I'm thinking of doing Erza Scarlet's (From Fairy Tail) Japanese Cloth "armor". I need to make the chest piece for it. What kind on fabric would I use? Would I want to use Knitted Fabric? Ive never sewn anything other than a pillow before... Any tips? Thanks! :)
@christiangillespie3374
@christiangillespie3374 8 жыл бұрын
I was laughing because the fabric your got is for hans
@hunterwilson5042
@hunterwilson5042 8 жыл бұрын
Thank you very useful
@kaitlynsorensen1288
@kaitlynsorensen1288 8 жыл бұрын
Is that a Seraph of the end costume I see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
@idunablack2592
@idunablack2592 8 жыл бұрын
Can u please make a video about how you make armor?
@britwit2335
@britwit2335 8 жыл бұрын
hey sirene can you make a non zipper/non elastic skirt cause your one of the few sewing people i understand so if you have time can you do thank plz and thank youuuu soooooo muchhh-wanting to make my first cosplay(satsuki from my neighbor totoro) :)
@ravenuchiha9664
@ravenuchiha9664 8 жыл бұрын
I love your videos
@Adelicate
@Adelicate 8 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much! This is so helpful!!
@hatsunemisty
@hatsunemisty 8 жыл бұрын
Could you at all possibly provide the link for the website you used for the swatches of fabrics? I took this into consideration and went to my local Joanne's and picked out two for my cosplay but my issue now is finding the exact color of something and they didn't have too many options 😞
@zackypoohplays8792
@zackypoohplays8792 8 жыл бұрын
I guess after learning this I cant us bed sheets for every cosplay
@notusedanymore7971
@notusedanymore7971 8 жыл бұрын
XD Poor bedsheets, they might be shy!
@zackypoohplays8792
@zackypoohplays8792 8 жыл бұрын
+Jess but they are cheap :P
@notusedanymore7971
@notusedanymore7971 8 жыл бұрын
+ZackypoohAndFriends True
@toeslooklikebeans
@toeslooklikebeans 8 жыл бұрын
+ZackypoohAndFriends I work in a professional theatrical costume shop and believeme bedsheets are nothing to turn your nose up at. Bedding, curtains, clothing, and other household fabric items can be repurposed for costumes (cosplay to historical re-creation), they all started out on a bolt and so can be made anew! If a sheet doesn't work for your final garment at the very least it could be very handy to draft your mockup with or even for lining your garment.
@zackypoohplays8792
@zackypoohplays8792 8 жыл бұрын
that's really insightful, Thanks
@chthoniccosmoschats7771
@chthoniccosmoschats7771 8 жыл бұрын
Hi Mango! I'd never heard of Spandex World before and when I visited I found the PERFECT fabric I needed for my Kuvira armor. I was just wondering what other websites you use to find fabric that they don't necessarily have Joanns?
@Fhornergal
@Fhornergal 8 жыл бұрын
What do you think of the new line of cosplay material that Jo-Ann is offering?
@pokemonnarutofan10
@pokemonnarutofan10 8 жыл бұрын
So for something like a hooded cloak would just plain cotton fabric be alright or should I go with something else. I'm looking for fabric that won't break my wallet for my Teen Titans Raven cosplay and I thought cotton would be alright. Any fabric suggestions would be great. Thank you :-)
@meganrwake
@meganrwake 8 жыл бұрын
Do you have any advice on cosplay that requires bodysuits? Like say peridot from Steven universe or Ladybug from miraculous ladybug?
@Hannon866
@Hannon866 8 жыл бұрын
hey MangoSirene, Om new to cosplay but i want to try and sew it. Im tring to cosplay Taeyeon form Akatsuki no Yona but he isnt a popular/ main character so i have to make it. Which fabrics and patterns should I look at as a starting point? BTW, lose your videos, they're very helpful. :]
@bigGuyOclock
@bigGuyOclock 8 жыл бұрын
i am pretty good with this kinds of stuff (clothing and stuff) but what i wanna know is what should i use for making armor or weapons, or mask or you name it Thank you
@SaltedMallows
@SaltedMallows 8 жыл бұрын
Woah you go to Youmacon how have we never met?
@emilywang8078
@emilywang8078 7 жыл бұрын
I spy seraph of the end
@jolienvp5277
@jolienvp5277 6 жыл бұрын
I just hope I get the privledge one day to learn how to make anything of clothing.. not even for cosplay but just because fuck the fashion industry: I want to wear whatever the fuck I want despite my size and I don't take kindly on online services who refuse to pay my refunds..
@mysteriousecstasy3590
@mysteriousecstasy3590 7 жыл бұрын
I want to make a Dr. Stein cosplay from Soul Eater. I want to sew it by hand (I know what kind of thread I'm going to use), but I don't know what kind of fabric to use. I was something that stretches and is soft. Any ideas?
@Sarah54474
@Sarah54474 5 жыл бұрын
You're saving my life ! Even if it's not for cosplay it's so usable ! Can I call you goddess ?
@ameliad507
@ameliad507 8 жыл бұрын
I wish my city's Joann fabrics were that big ;v; sadly its only one story. not a huge fabric selection either.
@JeonJungkook-wy2vo
@JeonJungkook-wy2vo 8 жыл бұрын
+MangoSirene What fabric can I use to make thigh high socks??
@Lisasplace
@Lisasplace 8 жыл бұрын
i always have waaay too much since i have no clue how to see how much i need
@kellergie2602
@kellergie2602 7 жыл бұрын
I bought a 77% polyester, 19% rayon, and %4 spandex fabric before really thinking about what exactly I'd need. (The store started closing and I'd drove 1.5 hours to get there so I panicked and made a purchase) I'm making a knife pleated school uniform skirt with a zipper. I've tried doing some research to find out if this kind of fabric will hold pleats, but so far I've found nothing. Do you know if this kind of fabric would be okay to make a pleated skirt out of? Thank you!
@kellergie2602
@kellergie2602 7 жыл бұрын
It was labeled as "suiting", in case that's an important detail.
@pienpurin
@pienpurin 6 жыл бұрын
What kind of fabric would you use for a basic anime sailor fuku?
@Synbihan
@Synbihan 6 жыл бұрын
Ella Haden Hello! I'm no MangoSirene, but I'm a cosplayer who made a sailor fuku for my Yandere-chan cosplay! I used a fabric called "Symphony Broadcloth" for my uniform! Usually any cotton fabric works really well for school uniforms! Hope this helped! :)
@runlittlelamb5115
@runlittlelamb5115 8 жыл бұрын
sharon :o pandora hearts :O
@mattheiustrider5587
@mattheiustrider5587 8 жыл бұрын
Can anyone help me with a fabric I am supposed to use for a Chibi America cosplay? It's like the antique dresses for dolls but it's just plain white. I used to have someone sew my costumes for me but I figured making my own would be cheaper since I wont have to pay for the labour.
@jj_hoolio
@jj_hoolio 8 жыл бұрын
+Mattheiu Strider my thought is cotton; it's likely what would have been used for it back then, anyhow
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