Could Identity Politics Help Democrats Engage Men?

[@skrv8588]

This went exactly how I expected. A lot of needing to "fix" men and the same talking point that have been trotted out for years. I really hope the left keeps digging this hole

[@wudubora]

Of course it is our fault and we are wrong and we have to change. Trump didn't win because he was a better candidate he won because we are all misogynists. They keep deflecting on to us. We are the fount of all the troubles on Earth or so they would have us believe.

[@KevinUchihaOG]

you didnt listen to it did you? I just finished it and i heard no discussion about "fixing" men.

[@skrv8588]

@@KevinUchihaOG It's all from Jackson, 5:00 "A way to think about themselves as part of the positive changes" 16:55 "not because of policy... but because the narrative" 34:00 the whole bit on "masculinities" which culminates with 36:04 "how to transform masculinity" 42:45 gamergate mentioned 48:00 discussion of needing to restore "progressive inputs" 58:00 all about narrative change to peel off some men 59:00 "adjusting to the changes brought on by feminism" 1:00:00 the peer pressure bit. On rewatch, I'll conceed that 41:25 is just normal gobbledygook rather than something I'd toss in the "fixing" category I've heard for over a decade at this point. "Fixing" probably wasn't the best term to use. However, Jackson's points are all things I've heard before, and seems to be the thoughts of the mainline party apparatus which feels the best way to reach men is to browbeat them for not behaving correctly, hence the use of the term "fixing." Thomas' position is the correct strategy, broad based, and if you are going to group voters, you do it based on class.

[@wudubora]

I would love to hear how feminism helps men. I don't see how "men's health" is an outcropping of feminism.

[@ValkesNuhuh]

I can take a stab at that but if you're really curious I suggest reading Will To Change or Feminism from Margin to Center by bell hooks. Men are also greatly harmed by patriarchy. We are told to subsume the aspects of ourselves that are generous, loving, giving, emotional, we become shuttered as humans and made disposable by the patriarchy that serves only a class of men for whom this lack of a loving character would be true regardless. "Real men don't cry" "Real men do x" These notions create a cage for us. For example, bell hooks writes in from Margin to Center ". . .unlike working women, working men are fed daily a fantasy diet of male supremacy and power. In actuality, they have very little power, and they know it. Yet they do not rebel against economic order or make revolution. They are socialized by ruling powers to accept their own dehumanization and exploitation in the public world of work, and they are taught to expect that the private world, the world of home and intimate relationships will restore to them their sense of power, which they equate with masculinity. They are taught that they will be able to rule the home, to control and dominate, this is the big payoff for their acceptance of an exploitative economic social order. By condoning and perpetuating male domination of women to prevent rebellion on the job, ruling male capitalists ensure that male violence will be expressed in the home and not in the work force." Unless men are also brought into the fold, seen as the co-victims of a system that dehumanized women more, but still men also, I don't know that we can make the progress we need. Similarly, any spirit of cooperation is killed (or at least maimed) by capitalism which acts as a barrier to liberation for all because hierarchy of wage is equated in this system to human value as not only the individual but also the family is made into a product that exists only to be sold. The equation of (Wealth = social value) allows the rich to use wage as a carrot to breakup working class movements with the wedge of bigotry. "You may not be on my level, but at least you're not gay, brown, or a woman so here's $2 more an hour." and in this way encourages the worst aspects of our nature. Unless we are all free from exploitative work, all free to live without force or domination, none of us are not free at all, and the chosen work of all must belong to all. Least people think I'm try'n to say "Women should stop talking and focus on men" I feel I should include here that the liberation of women is critically dependent on the liberation of men and the reverse is also true. We can see this clearly in the sexual liberation movement and lean-in white feminism. Which socializes women to behave like they're playing the game of capitalism on Men+ mode. "Have it all by working yourself to death and taking care of the unpaid, unappreciated care work necessary to reproduce labor." Intersectional feminism recognizes the need to include men as it not only helps to prevent negative outcomes for women by, frankly, civilizing men but also allows men a freer more loving relationship with themselves. In this way we basically change the perspective of men from "I am a dominator, I am a boss, a king that is threatened by feminism" to "I am a partner. I am allowed to be a man and a victim of capitalism and that capitalism drives me to dominate in the home which creates more victims. I do not have to base my sense of worth and self on that domination. I should base it on how I, instead, free all around me from need, desperation, and domination." Imo, A lot of what women are oppressed by is the cage patriarchy creates for men who aren't allowed/encouraged to do anything but oppress women. Free men can choose affection and softness without being emasculated, can choose less demanding and less lucrative careers without being emasculated, can choose self-care without being emasculated, can choose to participate in chores without being emasculated, etc. and with that women's freedom no longer threatens emasculation instead becomes allowable. This loosening of gender roles opens up categories of being to be seen as legitimate for all. I can be a stay at home dad and not be emasculated. Women can be programmers without challenging the misogynistic Cartesian view of logic as a male trait. Women can be mechanics and feminine. Freeing all to be all or not according to their own sense of self.

[@drewcross9927]

Jackson really missed the mark here.

[@MidnightRambler]

Maybe just drop the woke shit and lectures and scolding