Counterspell 9th LVL | Critical Role Campaign 3 Episode 75

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Counterspell 9th LVL | Critical Role Campaign 3 Episode 75
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[@MeerkatADV]

She rolled a 14, so exactly what she needed to save. She says it in the episode it's just hard to hear over everyone.

[@Thehermitflav]

I just saw on the CR tiktok that it was actually a 14 that she had rolled! (It shows the photo she took too)! Also watching back I can see both Travis and Marisha screaming “IT’S A FOURTEEN” - can’t believe I missed that hahah

[@noemiedepatie3987]

Ig its because of their reaxtions everyone in chat just assumed it was a natural 20 haha but yeah i missed it too it is still awesome tho haha

[@Thehermitflav]

@@noemiedepatie3987 yeah! Honestly all I remember seeing was Laura screaming NATURAL 20 so I kinda just went along with it hahah. Awesome either way!! :)

[@nephalos666]

Laudna: "NO! BAD LUDINUS! BAD, BAD, BAD LUDINUS!"

[@AdrasAdraki]

I hope ludinus is petty enough to remember this.

[@GZilla311]

Ok so judging from Ludinus's counter roll, he got a 6, and it meant a 12, so… he has a 22 INT at least.

[@SirFoxbutt]

The counter roll was a mistake, counterspell automatically kills 3rd level spells (which Marisha's counterspell was) and you only roll if it's 4th level or higher. I don't know if Matt forgot or just wanted to give Marisha her moment but had to make Ludinus try just for narrative, we'll never know.

[@Dorokill]

i would imagine either forgot or it's his House Rule after all the counter spells in the past 2 campaigns @@SirFoxbutt

[@davidhudgin]

Laudnas counter spell was probably LVL 5 as Warlock

[@diegomurillo5562]

​@@davidhudginhe's a wizard not a warlock

[@davidhudgin]

@@diegomurillo5562 yah I meant that he was trying to counter spell a LVL 5 spell not LVL 3 like she said

[@monika1196]

it shows that Marisha was playing with Brennan. This suspence, counting what she needs to roll. It felt like D20 they just needed Box of Doom.

[@zztwig1]

Travis yelling like a little kid was awesome

[@kalebjernigan2394]

This was SUCH an epic moment watching this live!!

[@waldowallace9102]

Even watching it later was pretty awesome!!!!

[@Jimbob1337]

So he attempted to cast Weird, a very deadly 9th level spell, and got shut down by a 3rd level Counterspell. Bear in mind this guy is probably a 21st level caster with 22 INT, he probably had an insane DC to beat, around 21, meaning it was TPK city.

[@cryofpaine]

Unless they could kill him first. But yeah, 4d10 each round is brutal.

[@JeraldJohnsonE]

I mean not really. Weird is probably the worst 9th level spell in the game. You have to fail two wisdom saves to even take damage. I suspect what he wanted was to frighten them so he could run away with fern.

[@Jimbob1337]

@@JeraldJohnsonE 4d10 per round on a DC 21 wisdom save is pretty rough, particularly when you consider that this is for a minute. Either they fluke the save or they take 20 Psychic damage every round and cannot move towards Ludinus. The only one who even remotely had a chance at avoiding this spell ironically is Laudna who while Form of Dread is up is immune to Fear, which means she auto passes the save.

[@SkyMcSparkle]

He also was a simulacrum.

[@tadious9415]

@@Jimbob1337 It doesn't apply the damage on the first round though. So they do get a full turn to attempt to deal with it or break his concentration. It's certainly better for them that they counterspelled it. But Matt also cast it thinking it would work and that they wouldn't just instantly die from it. He could've thrown meteor swarm at them with the same spell slot which would've been a TPK.

[@user-jg9dm3pq2m]

He was actually casting Weird judging by the description. Would be painful.

[@hfar_in_the_sky]

Know I'm late to comment here, but I figured I drop what Weird does here in the replies if anyone else comes across this and wonders: "Drawing on the deepest fears of a group of creatures, you create illusory creatures in their minds, visible only to them. Each creature in a 30-foot-radius sphere centered on a point of your choice within range must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, a creature becomes frightened for the duration. The illusion calls on the creature's deepest fears, manifesting its worst nightmares as an implacable threat. At the end of each of the frightened creature's turns, it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or take 4d10 psychic damage. On a successful save, the spell ends for that creature." Also the effects of thespell lasts for a minute, or ten combat rounds, and does not reacquire concentration to maintain. Shit's basically the Tsukuyomi from Naruto

[@syetpakable]

@@hfar_in_the_sky If only there were 2 thumbs-up. One for the spell description and one for the Tsukuyomi reference.

[@huntertaylor367]

When I realized it was Weird I about had a heart attack, cause my entire experience with the spell at the time came from Pathfinder, where it is 'save-or-die'.

[@lucasm.3864]

@@hfar_in_the_sky Honestly, that spell is pretty bad for being 9th level. Frightening a group of enemies and dealing 4d10 (which can be stopped at the end of every turn) isn’t really impressive compared to dropping four meteors out of the sky, permanently changing someone into a dragon, or outright warping reality.

[@JB-xl2jc]

​@@lucasm.3864 I guess you could say it's... Weird how underpowered it is comparatively

[@potchatokpotchatok6084]

Ironic that Laudna conterspelled the spell that would apperate everyone's fears

[@jaysonburke6839]

Counterspelling a 3rd level spell has a 100% success chance. Therefore, there was no roll required to counterspell Laudna's Counterspell

[@chihuahuatacos1979]

True but moments like this, a DM may ignore that to give the players a cool moment

[@bskec2177]

Matt may have altered the rules around counterspell to make it more dramatic, and give higher chances of failure - so that you roll everytime instead of only on spells of higher level. Counterspell has been used at very key points in previous campaigns, so it's hard for me to think this was a simple mistake over a very commonly used spell. It still could be just an oversight of course. CR has a reputation for that, and some "lawyerly" gamers have a real hard time because of it. (it does bug me a little from time to time as well)

[@Osideous]

She was counterspelling a 9th level spell my guy.

[@bskec2177]

@@Osideous Laudna was counterspelling a 0th level spell, however, their opponent tried to counterspell the counterspell, which failed. However, counterspell is only a 3rd level spell, and it should always work on a spell of third level or lower. So the counterspell should have automatically worked on the counterspell, counterspelling it. However, Matt rolled to see if the counterspell successfully counterspelled the counterspell, and ruled it a failure, which RAW would be impossible.

[@SpartanerChief117]

​ @bskec2177 Also last time i looked counterspell needs a reaction, which can only be taken on someone elses turn. So counterspelling in ones own turn is not possible. In addition to that, counterspell is a 3rd level spell or higher. Normal DnD rules allow only one spell to be cast in a round, so since the 9th level spell was cast before he would only be able to cast a cantrip, not another (counter)spell.

[@JaviusSama]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if Laudna cast Counterspell at level 3, Ludinus' counter shouldn't have instantly succeeded?

[@Krazi_AJ]

....just embrace the hype

[@christophergoberdhan2849]

You’re right, but rule of cool

[@JaviusSama]

I suppose it's more like Matt making it so that his baddies, don't automatically counter the player's spells.

[@hfar_in_the_sky]

To be fair there have been a couple of times where Matt has accidentally misinterpreted the rules in a way that screwed one of the players, so really it's only fair that he occasionally misinterprets a rule that screws over his own hostile NPC. And since it's all in good fun it all works out in the end

[@bigtiredpotato]

All I will say is....he didn't need to roll a spellcaster check because Counterspell doesn't need a roll if the targeted spell is 3rd level or lower.

[@LeMayJoseph]

I was thinking that too, but if she cast it as a Warlock, it would automatically be cast at her highest spell level.

[@Bears5056]

Rule of cool before anything else

[@pardox28]

Maybe do a re-edit of this video since in actuality Marisha rolled a 14. Feels weird (reference intended) to keep a video up w/ the wrong graphics.

[@TheMusicalBoy93]

I’m sorry but… does Matt Mercer have Paul Rudd syndrome!? Man doesn’t age, unless he grows facial hair. Then he shaves, and loses 10 years of age

[@jeroen92]

He didn't need to roll for the counter spell. He also can't wait to see if Marisha's counterspell works before counterspelling. Otherwise the players can counterspell after seeing if they fail the saving throw.

[@Stryk3r300]

I absolutely adore Ashley’s 5 second delay on almost everything.

[@Ugliduckie]

Anyone have any idea what spell Ludinus was casting?

[@Melthazar]

Yes. Based on the things that Matt said - we can deduce that it was Weird. 30-ft sphere, reference to worst fears and nightmares.

[@The_Cowwwthem]

Matt needs a box of doom to see the dice. Also good on matt for rolling that counterspell against the 3rd level

[@GunnerM60]

It was not a Nat 20, buy it WAS A 14! Which is the bare minimum she needed!

[@TragerM]

Watch again. She needed a fourteen but she rolled a twenty.... Matt wouldn't hop around, in joy, asking her to take a picture of a fourteen....

[@GunnerM60]

@@TragerM No, it was a 14. It's REALLY HARD to hear cause the whole group is flipping out. Go to 1:44 & replay it bunch. If you listen to it enough & listen closely she does say, "It's a 14!"

[@TragerM]

@@GunnerM60 Yes, sadly.I found that out after I posted that but it was too late at that point so I just let it go...

[@LeMayJoseph]

I’m confused, counterspell automatically counters a spell of level 3 or lower. If she cast her counterspell at 3rd level, making it a 13, shouldn’t he have not needed to roll?

[@ryan1000011]

She's a warlock so her counter is automatically at 5th at her lvl here Thus his 3rd lvl counter is of lower lvl

[@LeMayJoseph]

@@ryan1000011 ahhhh of course. I’d forgotten she was a Warlock.

[@ryan1000011]

@@LeMayJoseph she is part sorcerer also as says she used a 3rd lvl so while it's possible and was just a cool moment, I don't know how many lvls outside warlock she had to even have a 3rd lvl slot 🤷

[@kkjjqrysdgadff7782]

Ryan is correct, she didn't have any spell slots above 3 as a Warlock. The counterspell should have been instantly countered.. BUT.. rule of cool was probably the right call here. Super fun moment for the players, meaningless in the grand scheme as it wad a simulacrum anyway, so let the players have the moment.

[@JKin-nv2oy]

YOU CAN'T CASUALLY DROP THE NINE!!

[@DevilWearsAdidas]

benevolent matthew. Coutering a counterspell at level 3 doesn't need a roll.

[@levindeed]

Brennan does it too, he did it when he was running Calamity. Seems like it's just their homebrew ruling to add more drama. It doesn't seem that cool to take away such a success from a player just because the rules say so

[@Sepricotaku]

Travis just intimidated Marishas dice into that 14.

[@royalrosepetal]

I desperately want to see this dunk on Twodinus animated

[@matheusfiorelli8829]

anyone wandering, im pretty sure he was casting Weird

[@davide7039]

sneaky ahh mage tryna sneak in a power word

[@matheusfiorelli8829]

pretty sure that was the Weird spell

[@zero3045]

There some announcement on what Counterspell rules they going by? Feels like it keeps changing or they just forget.

[@KolmManison]

Or it's just d&d where houserules change from table to table, it's fine.

[@whitevii1533]

DC 14 and she rolled 14

[@xalxika]

DC 19, she rolled 14+5=19

[@grandpa6065]

Did Marisha say "I must overcome the man" as she was about to roll?

[@GewalfofWivia]

Honestly, I don’t think the DC for Ludinus to counter-counterspell should be 13. It should be 19. 😂

[@TrueLoveGuard]

It is. Marisha rolled a 14 and added her spell modifier, and that was enough to reach the threshold.

[@AronZNovak]

as it was.

[@bskec2177]

Counterspell is a 3rd level spell, and counterspell automatically works against 3rd level spells, so Lewdness shouldn't have had to roll at all - unless Matt added some Homebrew to change how counterspell works, which is possible. Although CR is great for storytelling, they do miss rules like this from time to time, so it may just be a missed ruling.

[@Tank22080]

Feel sorry for the DM he obviously had great story/plot twist set up from the look on his face. The big bad seemed like it was on its last legs to. 😢 But epic rolls and he just sucked it up and let the players bask. o7

[@TheCart54321]

Wait a minute counterspell is a leveled spell, Ludinus RAW should not have been able to cast a 9th level spell then counter on the SAME turn

[@babzm.1666]

Nope. RAW, you can cast as many leveled spells as is available per your Action Economy so long as no more than one of them are a Bonus Action. So two Actions can mean two spells, but a Bonus Action spell and an Action or Reaction spell cannot occur on the same turn. It’s a bit of a finicky rule, so many DMs change it their tables (in Campaign 1, I believe Matt said you can only cast multiple leveled spells in a turn if the second is of a much lower level, though I forget his exact ruling), but you can indeed cast multiple non-cantrips in a turn RAW.

[@Mashcroft88]

I have no clue what’s happening but it seems fun lol

[@0saintclark0]

I miss seeing your reactions to these episodes.

[@SkyMcSparkle]

I'm editing one right now!

[@CwHart]

Can't counter spell a counter spell when it's your spell being countered cause you have the interrupt the spell you already are casting to cast that counter spell

[@postomnis6134]

This is blatantly incorrect. The spell is already being cast, counterspell intercepts it between the activation stage and the effect stage. Also, two totally different action types. The action is used, and it costs a reaction to counterspell, all the costs have already been doled out

[@Michael-dy2lb]

Ettin wizard. One head casts while the other waits for someone to try to counter it, and then counterspells the counterspell. I know that's the situation here, but another wizard could do it. I actually recreated Demogorgon and was set for him to do exactly this.

[@Mr_Hoppykwins]

@@postomnis6134 But you cannot cast 2 levelled spells in 1 turn. SO you cant counterspell someone counterspelling your own spell unless its a cantrip

[@CwHart]

@@postomnis6134 counterspell interrupts a spell that is in the middle of being cast, you would need to drop the spell you were casting to counterspell the counterspell, wizards have already addressed this

[@postomnis6134]

@@Mr_Hoppykwins only applies when casting a Bonus Action spell

[@Stolenbyfriend]

huh.. Matt got it wrong.. the only time you roll for a Counter Spell is when the Spell you are Countering is using a Higher Level Spell Slot than the one you are using to Counter it.. I.E. the 3rd level Slot she used VS the 9th level slot Matt used.. BUT.. if he Countered with a 3rd level slot of his own.. then no Roll is needed as Counter Spell Instantly Counters Any Spell of 3rd Level or Below.. part of those Meet or Beat Mechanics that are all over 5e..

[@Whitewolf1984p]

I mean, I see ya point. But I feel it's also better to have counterspell not adhear to that mechanic when countering another counterspell. Otherwise it just takes away from a 3rd lvl counterspell countering a high level spell. (Like in this instance)

[@iHaveOneArm]

Remember though, he likes to make it fun for his players. So with as long as he's been playing I doubt he "Got it wrong"

[@supermat264]

But Laudna is a warlock so the spell slot used for the spell was higher than third. That means there would have been a roll if he cast his counter spell at third level.

[@grandpa6065]

but laudna has access to higher spell slots than that - and she didnt say what lvl counterspell

[@SpartanerChief117]

Also last time i looked counterspell needs a reaction, which can only be taken on someone elses turn. So counterspelling in ones own turn is not possible. In addition to that, counterspell is a 3rd level spell or higher. Normal DnD rules allow only one spell to be cast in a round, so since the 9th level spell was cast before he would only be able to cast a cantrip, not another (counter)spell. So if they not playing with some houserules, then quite a lot differed from how it should run given normal rules.

[@KittyMax97]

It wasn’t an actual nat 20. Laura asks if it’s a natural twenty while top row is celebrating, but Marisha yells “it’s a 14!” But, In this situation that’s as good as a nat 20!!! 😂

[@andypham4216]

Can you cast counterspell in the same turn in which you cast a 9th level spell? Im pretty sure you cant.

[@TheDudewithpie]

Yes, you can take reactions even during your own turn.

[@CwHart]

​@@TheDudewithpieyou would be interrupting the spell you were already casting unless you are using a subtle spell, because you would need to be using separate verbal and semantic components, wizards addresses this some time ago

[@Mr_Hoppykwins]

@@TheDudewithpie This is true, but not for counterspell.

[@SignoftheMagi]

Ever notice that Matt never uses Counterspell on the party?

[@brettchew3771]

I hate to be "that guy", but... ...Laudna's clutch level 3 counterspell should have been countered, RAW. Fortunately, Matt decided "Rule of Cool" trumps "Rules As Written" in this instance. Thanks for the video, love your face!!!

[@kalebjernigan2394]

I agree with you, but it’s a rule that Brennan Lee Mulligan does as well, so I’m thinking it may be a home rule that he has incorporated since. I think it feels more fun this way anyways tbh

[@OptionZero]

Matt didn’t decide that for story reasons, he just made a mistake. We can love Matt and still be honest about what happened. If he wanted to gift a win to the party, why bother casting and rolling at all? He doesnt fudge rolls. Brenna does not, as a baseline, do what matt did. He ran it RAW (3rd level counterspell succeeds against any 3rd level spell) in CALAMITY; when he changed rule slightly adjust the DC, he specifically announced it, demonstrating he knew the rule)

[@KILAH4716]

Does level 3 Counterspell counter a level 3 Counterspell? Also Marisha and Matt made a combined mistake. Marisha should have claimed what level she wanted to cast Counterspell at before Matt announced his intended spell was level 9. Or is she casting as a Warlock (as opposed to a Sorcerer) and the rules are different? I can also be that guy, but I'm a fan of if something amazing happens, let it happen.

[@cryofpaine]

​​@@KILAH4716​ she only has access to 4th level spells at most, and CS is 3rd level. So it was going to be one of the two. Which isn't much difference. And it's entirely possible she only had a 3rd level left. And yes, CS auto-succeeds against same level or lower.

[@donnatroy5381]

​@@OptionZerohe didnt make a mistake. Matt said that he rolled for Ludinus' counterspell to respect the difficulty of the initial counterspell

[@jeremy3770]

Matt does not look happy about this turn of events.

[@MetalGearCheese14]

Being allowed to counter spell when you're in the middle of casting another spell, makes no sense. It means you're casting two levelled spells in one turn in most cases.

[@CaptainNoodle]

Also if both spells require somatic components it should be impossible to do both

[@nieldoe1751]

Well he has two hands, also "two leveled spells in one turn" doesn't actually exist as a restriction in the game's actual rules. Only if you cast a spell (even cantrip) as a bonus action can you not cast more leveled spells as part of the same turn. Not that it matters considering Laudna cast Mirror Image + Blight with Quickened Spell earlier that session.

[@gollumandeowyn]

It's also worth remembering that there's a difference between a turn and a round.

[@Shadowrendx]

The actual rule is that you can’t cast two leveled spells in a turn if one is an action and the other is a bonus action. Reactions aren’t included in that

[@GewalfofWivia]

“A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.” This bit from the PHB doesn’t actually say anything about not allowing multiple levelled spells per turn. And honestly, this rule is lame. BG3 ignores it. CR ignores it.

[@thanesgames9685]

I'm so disappointed than none of the CR content thieves named this "Laudna counterspells the Patriarchy."