Crossrail 1974: RIP Covent Garden

[@JagoHazzard]

Go to ground.news/jago to spot media bias and make sure you’re getting the full story. Subscribe through my link to get 50% off the Vantage subscription this month only.

[@MichaelCampin]

I seem to remember a consultative document that proposed that Liverpool Street was turned into a bus/coach station and trains would have been scrapped and buses only on the route, this was back around 1976 or 1977, totally impractical but that's plans for you.

[@DanBen07]

12:50 Customise your news remind me of the 90s sci-fi show Babylon 5 where captain Sheridan get a newspaper from the computer dispenser. It asks if he would like to customise his newspaper and he lists more topics including Sports.

[@jackmartinleith]

@MichaelCampin No Michael, that was Marylebone, as a replacement for Victoria Coacj Station. I think it came close to happening. [...] Right, here's an article, which includes "The plans got as far as formal consultation": carolineld.blogspot.com/2016/10/marylebeon-coach-station.html

[@bfapple]

Another channel to succumb to the mid-reel adverts...

[@archstanton6102]

​@@bfappleYes, how dare he try and make an income from his videos!

[@isashax]

I am glad that this didn't happen! I really like the Covent Garden area as it is!

[@ludoviclemaignen9432]

Hopefully they would have left covent garden untouched and remodeled Leicester Square...

[@isashax]

@@ludoviclemaignen9432 we will never know!

[@alexandraclement1456]

Im so glad Covent Garde did not get destroyed. It is beautiful.

[@alfyryan6949]

the inspiration from the Paris RER on the plan is clear, given that the French built the initial system’s main city hub on the site of Les Halles, which was the central wholesale market until it was decamped to the southern outskirts. presumably Covent Garden’s fate would have been very similar, with a massive new shopping centre on top, or perhaps even a proto-mini-Canary Wharf

[@sglenny001]

Wait is that where that skyscrapers pompidou wanted is😊

[@phaasch]

"Enough of your foolish speculation, Hazard!" A brief image of sword sticks, unnecessary moustaches and Edwardian tomfoolery went through my mind.

[@chrisoddy8744]

Someone complaining about the writing of *King Solomon's Mines* to its author, I think 😂

[@nicolasbessin3705]

To extend the comparison with the Paris RER, in Paris in the 70's the historic food market was actually destroyed to make room for the transport hub that became "Châtelet - Les Halles", now the nevralgic center of the RER network ("Les Halles" meaning food market in French).

[@GaryJohnWalker1]

On youtube somewhere there's a Thames TV report from the early 70s headed by Bill Grundy (sex pistols fame) and Tony Bastable (I think, as in Magpie). It discussed the Covent Garden plans after the market closed, and the one on the table was effectivwely demolition of the lot. 'Heritage' sites kept - probably just the Opera House and maybe Theatre Royal since a big road - dual carriageway was to be built from Drury Lane (maybe Kingsway?) straight to Trafalgar Sq. Just north of the Strand. And at a time when big ideas like the London box hadn't quite gone out of fashion. Anyway, Covent Garden would be pretty much no more. In which case a big rail station as well would have a nice brownfield site to be plonked.

[@johnmurray8428]

Thank you! All these ideas being bandied about at the time I was leaving, compared to what is there every time I visit.

[@PLuMUK54]

Aaaw! You should have used Elizabeth Line and Philip Line...

[@caw25sha]

I'd have called it the Corgi Line 😅

[@nathanw9770]

Or Elizabeth II line, kinda like a sequel 😆

[@bostonrailfan2427]

@@caw25shais that one of the new line names for the Overground? 🤣😎

[@katrinabryce]

Or Charles Line? Probably that will be what the next one is called.

[@mubzytv]

The Elizabeth Line should be called the Charles Line

[@151mattwilson]

Thank you Jago!

[@tantaf123]

I may be two hours late, but it’s never too late to watch another master piece from Jago Hazzard :)

[@wanderingorganist]

Fascinating. Thank you. And I'm really looking forward to the other videos, very much hope that's in the plural.

[@kaitlyn__L]

You've got me reminiscent of regularly racing friends up the Covent Garden stairs now. Something you can only do as a teenager!

[@EngineerLewis]

Surely the other line should be known as the Charles Line as it is a curved one forming the letter "C" .. like a curved ball! 🤣

[@sierraalphaalphabravo9705]

What a lovely pair of documents they are as well - I'm seeing a proto-Network South East logo design there!

[@jonasrosengren9093]

Thanks

[@AtheistOrphan]

0:31 - That was almost my exact view of Jean-Michel Jarre’s ‘Destination Docklands’ concert back in 1988!

[@RogersRamblings]

Oh dear, as much as it pains me to find a difference of recollection in a Hazzard production, it's my belief that it was Horace Cutler, leader of the then Greater London Council who insisted on the name change from Fleet Line to Jubilee Line. The change was widely viewed as nothing more than an attempt to curry favour with the powers that be.

[@PedroGeaquinto]

A line stopping at Victoria, Westminster, Charing Cross, Ludgate, Moorgate would be an excellent addition to the transport system (and would connect with all lines, unlike Elizabeth line which avoids Victoria line)

[@kinrah1711]

Going by the map, it looks to me like the Eastern end of the "Southern" line would have resurfaced on the lines going out of Bricklayers Arms.

[@Acela2163]

6:31 Presumably the "Holborn" in this case is Holborn Viaduct Station

[@bostonrailfan2427]

9:11 this seals it: it’s linked to the loss of Holborn Viaduct/creation of City Thwneslink

[@Steeyuv]

Why did it occur to no-one that what the rest of the country needs is express through trains across London so we can have much quicker (for example) Norwich to Bristol services? All the Elizabeth line has done is driven up house prices (even further) within the M25.

[@Wildcard71]

There is a South Midlands line (no idea what name it'll get) under construction. The western part is said to be ready.

[@tonys1636]

The idea then and probably today is they don't want people passing through London quickly but to change modes of transport and spend some money in London. The only current North South connection is HS1 at St Pancras and Eurostar but one still has to change trains and maybe buy something. Even HS2 will be a subsurface Station between Euston and St Pancras.

[@caw25sha]

@@tonys1636 Yes, I heard there was a train service to St Pancras Shopping Centre 😃

[@TravelWithMeGadget]

I have been asking myself this for decades. I live in Berlin now and we have mainline tracks north-south and east-west. They carry "regional expresses" much like the Lizzie line and proper main line ICEs, meaning that you can do the equivalent of getting a train from Bristol through to Liverpool Street. When crossrail was first announced, I was amazed that this wasn't considered. Yes it would have increased the cost, needing additional platforms at some stations and passing loops at others, but the benefits would have been enormous

[@CM73878]

Because the demand for a service from Bristol to Norwich would be in the hundreds per week whereas the rail services in the south east are simply much busier as travelling by road is difficult in urban areas with inadequate roads. The Elizabeth line extends beyond the M25 allowing commuters from Reading to get into London for example. The fact is that London is both a major international city and has to deal with commuters and tourists alike. Norwich is a rather lovely backwater but is never going to justify large investment in public transportation. As for Bristol, it’s more overpriced than London in that house prices are a greater multiple of earnings, as salaries are relatively low by national standards.

[@pacificostudios]

I'm surprised Jago didn't mention that this plan would have also doomed Liverpool Street. At the time, BR's consultants were probably thinking of building another Euston Station, with a money-spinning office block over it.

[@caw25sha]

@@pacificostudios That's what's being planned now, and getting all the John Betjeman types in a tizzy.

[@pacificostudios]

@@caw25sha - I've heard that. But in the 1970s, it would have been possible to flatten Liverpool Street without a thought. London Euston is kind of like New York's Penn Station.

[@phaasch]

Perhaps we can only be thankful for the impecunious state of Britain's economy in 1974, otherwise we may yet have had Covent Garden Grand Central, with the interchange below being opportunistically smothered by the Brutalist development some were itching to dump there.

[@bostonrailfan2427]

“every one of them is worth a video itself” well then, you know what to do! you tease us but will spoil us eventually 😎

[@sjcuk]

Is it just me or does the rail map look like a cross? Is that where ❌Crossrail got its original name? 🤔

[@peterharris3563]

it's worth taking a look at the 1991 Crossrail scheme, whose core section is the same as the Elizabeth Line but instead of a branch to Heathrow, it would have taken over the Metropolitan line to Amersham and Aylesbury.

[@jfreilly135]

Thanks!

[@Jimyjames73]

Interesting in what could have happened Jago!!! 🤔🚂🚂🚂

[@GeorgeChoy]

good morning jago

[@jadeboswell-rz2ly]

You are my hung parliament to my Sir Reg Goldwin. What could have been, we shall never now.

[@MrSmith1984]

There wouldn't be a need to actually demolish the Market Building at Covent Garden. Especially when one could convert the building into a Station and build the Platforms Underground. It would also mean that the inadequacies of Covent Garden Tube Station could finally be addressed.

[@richarddaygm]

the southern line curves away from the lines out of london bridge to meet them again at right angles at new cross gate. they'd do that to tunnel onto lewisham.

[@ten-bob-note]

The map shows it following the route of the Bricklayers Arms (freight only) line, south of London Bridge, which was still in operation when the report was written. I rather doubt that they would have built an even longer tunnel, all the way back to the Brighton & Southeastern main lines, when there was already a working railway on the surface at the time.

[@richarddaygm]

​@@ten-bob-note thanks -that would explain why they thought goods trains might use the line, if it is fed by an exclusive goods line. I just had the proposed bakerloo extension on my mind which might tunnel from new cross to lewisham, 2 important interchange points, and wondered if this line had similar ambitions given the then curious angle of the line. but no.

[@ten-bob-note]

I was also puzzled about angle of the line, at London Bridge, until I zoomed in on the map and saw that the sweeping curve brought it into direct alignment with the (at the time massive) goods terminus at Bricklayers Arms. The Bricklayers Arms line had direct links to both New Cross and New Cross Gate back in 1974.

[@pmunity]

Thanks for your really informative and clear videos - can you do one on Victoria Station please which I think is especially interesting given that it is actually two connected stations - thanks again.

[@fernbedek6302]

The Ludgate/Blackfriars/Holborn blob leaves me wondering if it could have ended up as much of a mess as Chatelet-Les Halles over in Paris.

[@TimMiddleton]

It is interesting that the proposals didn't include a link to Heathrow, and that it is not obvious how an upgrade to connect to Docklands would have worked. There would also have needed to be an upgrade to connect with Eurostar services. I'd suggest that we are far better off with what we ultimately got.

[@highpath4776]

I think I like the route of the southern line.

[@MrSmith1984]

A Victoria-Charring Cross-Bank-London Bridge Crossrail Line wouldn't be such a bad idea to be honest.

[@ten-bob-note]

The "Southern Line" appears to resurface at the Bricklayers Arms Goods Depot and re-use its branch back to the Brighton & South-eastern main lines. Does the 1974 report go into any detail on this?

[@roderickmain9697]

Given the various hoo-hah's about knocking down St Pancras, rebuilding Liverpool Street, probably all driven by the pigs-ear they made of Euston, I could see that "a fuss" might have been made about knocking down Covent Garden. So I think it possible that the above ground area could have been turned into an entrance way for a largely under ground stop on these lines had they gone ahead. Where theres a will etc, etc. You might still have got the London Transport museum and who knows, it might have been doing more business. The freight thing has peaked my curiosity though. Moving people around with accessibility et al has obviously been at the heart of London Terminii and the Underground. You've covered one or two cases where freight was actually move around on Underground lines but there must be another history of goods - yards, through routes and so on. Where does the freight go these days - there still is some. 50 odd years ago (pre-tunnel) I came across a French (SNCF) parcel van at Oxford station. How did that get there?

[@TinaJavaid]

Your channel is one of the best places on KZbin for quality content. Thank you for all your hard work!🍟🌖🐰

[@highpath4776]

I dont know, it looks like that "Elizabeth Line" might connect to the East London Line for New Cross - to Hayes ?

[@tajammulrizvi9504]

Time for the Philip Line to be built Brentford to Thamesmead.

[@tallthinkev]

A rail study is just train spotting that costs money

[@brianfretwell3886]

As a later Crossrail scheme (again not the one actually built) had Reading and Aylsebury as the western termini and only a line through London Bridge I don't think Abbey Road and Heathrow were anywhere near being on the list.

[@caw25sha]

If it had gone to Abbey Road they'd have called it ZebraCrossingRail.

[@brianfretwell3886]

@@caw25sha Subconcious Beatles fan slip. Ooops! 😁

[@CJonestheSteam72]

Heathrow have changed a lot in the last 50 years. Abbey Wood probably hasn't but I think ESE London (Woolwich eastwards) is in massive need of regeneration still

[@Andrewjg_89]

If only Crossrail could have come lot earlier and it still would have been called Crossrail. But at least we now got the Elizabeth Line and there plans for Crossrail 2 to be built that would go from Northeast London to Southwest London. And a brand new station in Chelsea that the people of Chelsea don’t want to see a railway station built there as it would ruin what Chelsea is.

[@johnhamilton2923]

Covent Garden could have been repurposed as a Station rather than Demolished.

[@stephenlee5929]

Maybe, but I doubt BR would have.

[@bostonrailfan2427]

@@stephenlee5929maybe not with enough pressure from historical preservationists…

[@bostonrailfan2427]

it’s rife for just that: plenty of space for passengers, retail, platforms, and is already a landmark

[@stephenlee5929]

@@bostonrailfan2427 Given the level of vandalism BR inflicted on Euston Station only 11 years earlier against massive public outcry, I think BR were quite capable of further damage.

[@bostonrailfan2427]

@@stephenlee5929 true...

[@neilmaskell9200]

What was the western terminus of 1974 Cross Rail?

[@gobiwaq]

Like Battlestar Galactica 1980, best forgotten

[@GreenJimll]

So did they protect both routes, and if so is the southern route still mostly available?

[@stephane_massey]

The Charles line ??

[@bostonrailfan2427]

at the rate things are going, it’s going to be the William Line

[@telhudson863]

@@bostonrailfan2427 More like the George Line.

[@bostonrailfan2427]

@ …good point

[@Keithbarber]

4th - thought i was 3rd

[@ianthomson9363]

Hooray!

[@AngusGoldie]

What would this mean for the west end

[@joethebrowser2743]

👍🏻🇬🇧👀...

[@maedero05]

That route would be duplicate too much exciting cir le line. Marble arch, Canonstreet little pointless. Souther route little use for southern london as more bakerloo, northern or Victoria line would be, Both routes have cross platform exchange ?

[@teenoso4069]

micky hazard?

[@richardekers3025]

I remember Crossrail in 1974. People were VERY cross about British Rail in 1974. Not me though, I could go to London for 50p each way by saying to the Station guys that I had come from the previous station and handing them a shiny 50p piece. They never smiled though.

[@MorganTheTimeLord]

2nd

[@TheManFrayBentos]

"Reflect from your shadow." What meaningless drivel is this?

[@brettpalfrey4665]

1st?

[@Mark.Andrew.Pardoe]

Whato Oh come Jago. Elizabeth and Southern? You can do better than that. How about Elizabeth and Philip? Then other new lines could have been called Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward. Mmm; perhaps not Andrew now.

[@JamesMurphy-ry2mx]

Seven words or more for the algorithm. Slava Ukraine ! 🇺🇦

[@AndreiTupolev]

And that comment is relevant to the subject of the video how, exactly?

[@JamesMurphy-ry2mx]

It’s not relevant to the subject. It’s support in general for the channel. Slava Ukraine ! 🇺🇦

[@JenniferHong-u3s]

Each of your content is a masterpiece! Keep inspiring us with your creations!😇🐕🦬

[@CJonestheSteam72]

Heathrow has changed a lot in the last 50 years. Abbey Wood probably hasn't but I think ESE London (Woolwich eastwards) is in massive need of regeneration still