Check call ONLY with a Strong Hand?

Another interesting hand with a QJT board. Andrew 4-bet preflop and flops middle set. He and Bart discuss the best line.
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[@scotthastings8771]

What an awesome hand and analysis! Thanks, I enjoyed this one

[@prestonskelding5227]

I really enjoyed Bart's analysis here. I agree with the 4-bet sizing pre as in these max bet games people are so much more incentivized to open call 4-bets pre so sizing up makes a lot of sense to me. I agree also that C-betting this board with JJ to a smaller sizing is good because you get to charge spades, AQo AA,KK, and random Kx and 99. The small sizing might even get a rec to dock off more as he interprets that siding as weakness compared to a check. On the turn I might even check raise to an even smaller sizing such as 850 or 900 to make his draws/combo draws more likely to call or just jam it in. The only problem with that approach is on bad rivers you are in a terrible spot with a really weird SPR so I would rather make this sort of min-click bet in position. Tough hand great video as always.

[@ryanlisterman1864]

Sounds like hero is describing rampage lol

[@sammerritt8]

He 100% is haha

[@marcoyip5812]

Rampage is so bad lol

[@ruudbakstra1805]

😂

[@duece3000gt24]

Lol sounds like it.

[@edwardmauer7442]

@@marcoyip5812 No idea how he's still around lol

[@TheAepread]

@CrushlivePoker, really enjoyed the discussion around the 15 minute mark about remembering hands, true blanks, comparing to chess etc. You mentioned not remembering people names, and I'll extend that to you not remembering who you might have played a hand against - but you would remember that they were a nit, or that they liked showing bluffs or whatever detail actually mattered for making sense of the hand you played with them however long before. No real point, but I think it's interesting thinking about the way expertise in something can let you remember something so well if it fits into your model for how that thing works.

[@karlseastrand7678]

15:00 funny I had always thought I was weird cos I forget names instantly but remember hands from years ago. In Vegas IMO it is very helpful to remember players, esp the bad ones so you can play with them when possible. I try to remember fish from facial features or even a ring they wear.

[@jamesfranks1790]

I think the CR on turn is good because he can push opponent of some equity if he has any 2 pr hands, or pair with open ender, as you can't draw with a k or 9 against what appears to be the nuts

[@TheGuyCalledX]

You absolutely want those hands to call. Cant be scared of variance when you dominate those hands with one card to come

[@jamesfranks1790]

@@TheGuyCalledX not saying you don't want them to call and to be scared of variance. Saying raise an amount that makes it an unprofitable play for them to call, so they are either calling with bad odds or folding out their equity.

[@TheGuyCalledX]

@@jamesfranks1790 you're contradicting yourself though-- the point of betting isn't to push people off of low equity hands with one card to come. Betting and raising you want to fold out better (or hands with decent equity against yours) and get called by worse.

[@jamesfranks1790]

@@TheGuyCalledX the point IS to push them off equity, or make an unequitable call. If the guys got 20% equity, and you check raise 25 into a 110 dollar pot, calling is profitable for him. You raise an amount where he either folds his equity, or makes an unprofitable call.

[@TheGuyCalledX]

@@jamesfranks1790 You certainly don't want to give them a free card if that's what you mean, but the point is to bet a size that hands that you have 80% equity against will call most of the time, not to get them to fold their 20% equity. 80% equity of a larger pot > them folding because you bet too big to "deny equity."

[@cmc0605]

I don't think the flop range bet discussion is correct in this hand, because Villain is still very uncapped and can have QQ+, AK. You don't get to range bet in a normal configuration just because you're the preflop raiser, but rather because you have range and nut advantage, which isn't true when V can't 5-bet. Being OOP likely shifts things toward a check.

[@dot333333]

Agreed. Also since villain can't 5bet and ruin the equity of light 4bets, hero should be cold 4 betting significantly wider than normal which further reduces hero's range vs range equity when called.

[@tylermokarry9731]

playing vs a 4bet range that can't 5 bet isn't the same thing as playing against a 5bet range, i see what your saying, but hero still has the betting lead and i would think that most of V's 3bet range is just going to call pre, so all those hands are still in there, the nuts just can't be fully discounted

[@alistairwillock7266]

@@tylermokarry9731 The nuts can't be discounted _at all_. All 16 AK combos are mixed in there, along all the rest of the villain's 3-bet range that continues against that 4-bet sizing. Including the QQ combos of course.

[@dot333333]

@@tylermokarry9731 Villains range should probably include all hands of hero's range plus some. That plus some likely gives hero a slight range advantage, but not nearly as much of a nut advantage compared to if this was a typical 4bet pot. In a typical 4bet pot, villain can't accomplish much if anything by raising the range bet, but here he could successfully polarize over a range bet because he has all of the strongest hands too. Although polarizing on the flop and splitting your range might not be that attractive to either player here since many turns and rivers can change relative hand strength considerably. For instance if either player bets/raises big and defines their range as mostly AK and bluffs and then the board pairs you are in a world of hurt. So f*** it I don't know what's correct here, maybe a tiny range bet? or a super complicated mixed frequency check+bet strategy? Anyone have a solver?

[@MrJamberee]

@@alistairwillock7266 Yes, and somebody’s likely going all in here, so might as well just get to it.

[@patrick_kyker]

I think if you go in to check call mode. You should stay in C/C mode. When you change from that it makes your hand look so strong. I think I would lean towards a lead. You would think the V would have a piece of that flop in a 4 bet pot.

[@paulcoene6094]

So Bart I think I've heard you say multiple times that three betting out of position you tend to make the three bet more like 4x whereas if you're in position you make it 3x.. so why is it when it's a four bet, suddenly out of position you want to make the pot smaller?

[@danielcooke9974]

One thing I have found in playing for a short time is, you can't always fear that the vilian has the nuts or that you think the vilian will think you have the nuts.

[@cnyjay]

villain having A9s makes total sense here especially considering villain's comment when folding

[@bondjames5874]

yeah i remember that study with chess players.

[@brentpeterson2813]

I love your analysis. This hand i thought it was confusing and wrong at times.

[@willinnewhaven3285]

Spread limit with a cap? I think we did that in spread limit games back in the day.

[@alistairwillock7266]

At the 4:00 minute mark, I'm going to disagree with Bart and endorse the caller's 4-bet sizing. One of the theoretical reasons for sizing up when cold-4-betting out of position is to reduce the postflop SPR, and thus disincentivize your in-position opponents from set-mining. I think that's even more important with JJ - _because you're more incentivized to continue betting on low flops_ (as your hand needs protection more than KK and AA). Also, since you'll also be cold-4-betting with some hands that have less-than-ideal playability post-flop (AQo for example), narrowing your opponents' calling ranges by sizing up seems like a good idea to me. Also, an additional benefit is that you further reduce your odds of having to take the flop multi-way. Given the starting stack depth, I advocate for at _least_ the 4x sizing that the caller used.

[@briancrist6388]

Does the bet cap come into play in sizing? Obviously in a normal NL game if you get jammed on with jacks its not going to be great

[@alistairwillock7266]

@@briancrist6388 It sure does, but I didn't factor the spread-limit 4-bet preflop cap into my analysis 😐 The biggest factor that wrinkle changes is the HJ can now call with impunity, so I think it ends up being another argument in _favour_ of a larger 4-bet sizing.

[@briancrist6388]

@@alistairwillock7266 Yeah i agree in this situation. Playing online i cant see 4 betting large on jacks though, everyone is so tight you will end up getting jammed on by queens+ too often

[@alistairwillock7266]

@@briancrist6388 You have 4-bet/fold range right? At 150BB, what is your 4-bet/call range? AA/KK/QQ/AKs, and fold JJ/TT/AKo and the rest? Seems reasonable. Likewise, lowering 4-bet sizing in this spot against tight online opponents seems reasonable, given that they're going to continue with a much narrower range of hands. Caller characterized both villains as opening pretty wide, so I'd definitely size up.

[@immortalcrypto5837]

Bart's already addressed in previous videos that he knows that its generally recommended to bet larger when out of position however he prefers to not size as high while OOP and given the style he plays and advocates it makes sense as you can still withdraw from the hand should your opponent continuing to display strength throughout and this way youre able to minimize potential losses. Thats a good point about you made about your opponent potentially hitting sets on lower card boards when your hand is the strongest but by and large this does not occur often, you can also still be against higher pairs on and post flop which is more common actually. Also almost any time theres a four bet pot as in this case and you aren't extremely deep you're in very good shape against the pairs you dominate and post flop you can still build up big pots and/or stack your opponent (though I personally dont think Jacks is all that great to play for full stacks with unless you are versus particularly loose opponents), sets aren't all that frequent. Also in online play against more difficult opponents I think Bart's logic is even more sound here.

[@danstrickland4445]

By your caller not betting the flop his opponent gets to see his response to the bet and your caller does not see a response to the bet he should have made. That's vital in this situation.

[@marilynfreedberg8575]

Where was this spread limit game played? If they said, I didn't hear it.

[@patrick_kyker]

TX?

[@marilynfreedberg8575]

@@patrick_kyker Not sure? I know AZ is spread limit but that's only State that i am aware of.

[@PhilipJReed-db3zc]

@@marilynfreedberg8575 $600 max sounds like AZ. Washington has the 4-bet cap rule too, but $300 max bet. ($500 max for tribals but not sure if any of those still has poker.)

[@paalsandmo9728]

Love the randomiser joke 🤣

[@jack42011]

so many bad rivers can come out on a board like this, any spade, any ace or King, any 9, any board pair besides a J... I have run into these spots many times where i have a very strong non nut hand on a very dynamic board in a three or four bet pot, have a very good feeling that I am ahead at the moment when do you want to go all in to push the villain off a strong draw before the river and when do you just want to check call it all the way through, damn the torpedoes, four bells??? Most of the time I find myself wanting to close out a hand like this on the turn and just take the pot down, how wrong is that in most similar situations???

[@groovygrover190]

Dude had kings

[@donaldcedar7574]

Check min-raise on the turn? Villian will feel like an idiot folding even his bluffs so that will probably make him jam bluffs. To be honest this would probably work better on the flop.

[@MXDRE907]

I’m not sure that checking flop is better than betting in that one.

[@andreshernandez1820]

Can you post a video where someone played it correctly? Every video is you explaining to someone how to fold

[@compteofficiel4112]

i think you are missing a lot of nuance because he tends to discuss the pros and cons of various plays and isn't usually talking in blanket "good/bad" judgements at all....sometimes, sure, Bart can be a little rough on really bad callers, but that is part of the learning process.

[@cerealmilk6877]

I think people get caught with the difference of a blank and a brick. I guess a brick is when a draw doesn’t get there

[@compteofficiel4112]

i think i'd have led out on the flop..definitely a bad board for free cards and also if he shoves over the top you could consider folding...and just for value.

[@ruudbakstra1805]

Consider folding vs shove 😂

[@pokerqAK47]

Folding a middle set? Nit alert

[@why-even-try-brotendo]

I feel like he was open ended and didn't like his chances after the brick turn.

[@scottgunn9978]

I find that it's more profitable to read their souls rather than their hands.

[@johnwallner]

Lets go next

[@mikeob6325]

Yikes dangerous flop,,,,bet flop200-250 fold if R...V will check flop with AK...so put him on QQ or TT or KK or AA or ss or AQ,,turn pot committed go all in

[@snobes4825]

👍

[@aceking5360]

He might have got QQ to fold there

[@lazyman114]

Very hard to call there with QQ or TT.

[@compteofficiel4112]

those rules about no 5-bets and sizing limits really screws up thinking clearly about this hand...i think villain's (who was described as loose/splashy, right?) range is very wide. you gotta give him some credit for firing two barrells, it probably would have worked against AQ or even QJ or TT.

[@compteofficiel4112]

@@lazyman114 aren't the direct pot odds pretty close though? you have 10 outs to fill up, about 20% so you need about 4-1 right? and you know the rest of the money is going in, so actually lower. and that doesn't consider bluffs (maybe with big combo-draws) or just worse hands spazzing out..

[@nicks210684]

@@compteofficiel4112 yeah I don’t see how you could fold QQ. TT sure.

[@lazyman114]

@@compteofficiel4112 Yeah but only if you think he might be bluffing with pocket kings or something. Still hard to call even though it's really bad to fold QQ.

[@stevenc8281]

“ Chess player are like poker players” LOL By the way my father looks just like me

[@stevenc8281]

If you are a millennial chances are you don’t get it

[@noThankyou-g5c]

I feel like the whole point of your channel is to make Japan look horrible 😅

[@danielcooke9974]

I would down bet.

[@danielcooke9974]

That's after the flop.