CS Lewis and Suffering // Amy Orr-Ewing // Unbelievable? Conference 2013

[@PGBurgess]

It always gives me the shivers when people try to draw a line between 'real pain', 'intrinsic value', 'absolute morals', ... and that of 'merely our experience'. All it takes to break this nonsense is getting a grasp on the idea that our experience of things, however subjective that is, is real and it does matter to us. That are worldviews, the value we place on things and the emotions we feel are real and worth having a rational discussion.

[@ranferchristian8050]

Beautiful. God bless you all!

[@lainegordon5831]

always appreciate orr-ewing's thoughtful, comprehensive arguments. sometimes it is easier to answer the errant philosophist like dawkins , than the clever atheist like the late hitchens.... the holes in the world philosophies are often dismantled with decent logic, but the guy on the street isn't that critical a thinker, and hitchens made sense to them. amy has done an excellent job in both logic and the need to be sensitive to the pain of human suffering

[@louiscyfer6944]

Laine Gordon what video were you watching. she managed to engage in logical fallacies, how can you call that an excellent job with logic. she put on a clinic on how to try to weasel out of answering this question and tried to make other worldviews answer it by strawmaning them. she is incredibly dishonest.

[@Ninja1live]

Great. Good job Amy.

[@_a.z]

Why is it so difficult to understand that what hurts us hurts others, so treat others as you would want to be treated. Help others as you would want to be helped. We feel what others feel on a psychological level, it can be seen from MRI scans, and we rationalise what happens, it even provides survival advantages.

[@callienn]

This is so good. Thank you Amy!

[@townsendstephen]

Really nice lecture. But the true life examples from the suffering church at the end were incredible

[@GregSmith-nl8tz]

I had one lady tell me when she meets Christ, she will slap him in the face . A colleague of mine said he would "flip God off." This is how impassioned people are about this subject. Thanks, Amy.

[@Triumvirate888]

That's a curiously odd thing for your dad to say. It is strikingly similar to what pop psychology refers to as "daddy issues". Children (especially spoiled, rich children) who rebel against their parents' traditional values will often have this kind of reaction to being told what their fathers think of them and their behavior. Oddly enough, the Bible predicted that response. For when mankind actually did meet God, they killed Him.

[@adammeade2300]

It's sad, but I think from God's point of view, he'd rather someone be hot or cold than luke-warm. So long as passion exists, the heart is still able to be engaged. It's when a person grows indifferent that we truly have nothing to offer.

[@itsjustrenee1320]

Like the pow's of VietNam who often didn't recognize their rescuers and could no.longer speak english, they resisted their rescue. I consider humans as kidnapped. Jesus paid the ransom to get us back with His life but those who refuse Him prefer to stay in their cages with the enemy and suffer evil because they are brainwashed by deception and lies. We, who are Christians and have embraced the free gift of salvation, often spend the rest of our lives being deprogrammed and moving towards our understanding and therefore our peace. I meet people like these haters you are talking about and it breaks my heart , but after we've preached the gospel to them, all we can really do is pray for them and try to show them God's love so they may learn to quit blaming Him for their suffering.

[@kerenlopez7890]

Las conferencias las van a traducir en español?

[@jackdelaney6633]

yup literally......"UNBELIEVABLE"

[@Erwin70000]

Why are you putting the Iraq question aside? Can we use the equation of good and evil to define this tragedy? Does it depend on your personal point of view? Is it relativism or is there a moral position? What would Jesus position be on this point?

[@Erwin70000]

Dear Amy I am really thankful for all you do in spreading the Good News. As your brother in Christ and in all humility I felt kind of surprised by you referring to Ravi as your boss, not once but several times. He is not your boss! A teacher, a mentor, a guide in our journey? yes! A n instrument in the Lord's hands. I understand how you may feel inclined to use this term but you have graduated. And now God has a plan for you and your path is His and no one else. Please my comment is just an infinitesimal part of all the good shared on this, probably one of the most difficult subjects. I use this public forum and for this I do apologize. I do not have any other way to comment on a personal level. Love in Christ.

[@Erwin70000]

Yes, you are right.

[@pololololoy]

Morality, that is the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL started when Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden. Genesis 2:15-17 15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 3:4-5 4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing GOOD and EVIL.” ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That was when pain, suffering and death came to be. Genesis 3:14-19 14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring[a] and hers; he will crush[b] your head, and you will strike his heel.” 16 To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” 17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” The above verses show the profound responsibility of parents and the implication of each action the parents make.... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pain and suffering are tests of a person's faithfulness to God. And in order to ease the pain, offer each suffering to God for the intention of reparation of sins and for the conversion of sinners. satan will not keep on inflicting pain to someone who seeks pardon for sins and seeks conversion of sinners because satan wants people to keep on sinning. Matthew 11:28-29 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

[@dagwould]

It's not just knowing intellectually, but knowing experientially.

[@Ninja1live]

I'm crying and I'm not even 2 min. in. (Sigh.)

[@mattbrooker3482]

When it said "CS Lewis and Suffering" I thought we were going to get advice on how to read "That Hideous Strength"...

[@loganginger]

I think I'm in love with this woman.

[@loganginger]

+FlyingAxblade Nope. First thing I looked for. Im out of her league

[@robertoesquivel4447]

Logan Ginger Im sure that's not true, though she may be taken if you put it in God's hands I'm sure there's a beautiful, both inside and out, strong and passionate woman out there for you!

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

God loves us so much that he can do something about suffering but he'd rather just sit back and watch it happen.

[@HourForRevival]

Your Wrong God Gave us This life to help others in his name if your not doing your job thats your problem

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

So is God omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent? If it is it should want to get rid of suffering, be able to get rid of it and know how to get rid of it. So why hasn't it got rid of suffering? The only reasonable explanation of this conundrum is it hasn't got rid of suffering because there is no God in the first place, only exits in your head not in reality.

[@HourForRevival]

you know the bible says only a fool has said in his heart there is no God now God said that so you just confirmed that God is real Psalms 14:1 God Created People to Take Care of Every thing in This world but so many have aborted them .I dare you to give God a chance truly i am sorry his church has hurted you and miss represented him he is the father of the fatherless and the reason you hate God who you clam you dont belive in is cause somthing happened in your life that you blame him for it was not his falt. forgive God if your angry at him even though he is not at falt and He will heal your heart he loves ya he wants you he died for you he is crazy about you with all his loving heart.

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

Firstly - You totally avoided the question but your not alone, nearly every Christian does. So I'll ask again. Why can't God end suffering if he's all powerful, all knowing and all loving? Secondly - I don't hate God, I've yet to even hear a coherent definition of what anyone means by the word, so how can I hate it? Third - I know what the Bible says, but why should I believe it's anything more than a book? (Yes I know it talks about things that are historical but that doesn't prove that the supernatural parts of it are true, a man named Jesus may have existed but good luck proving that he rose from the dead with a book written by anonymous authors) Forth - If a fool can figure out that there's no God, what's your excuse? Fifth - You don't "know" that God said anything, you just "believe". You need to learn the difference. Sixth - Im only interested in believing things that are true. Faith isn't a pathway to TRUTH, if it was then Jews and Muslims would also have the truth because they also use faith as a method of finding truth, do you see how useless faith is now? Until you can prove that your book is anything more than just that (a book) I really don't care about what it contains. Ask yourself why you don't care about the book of Mormon or the Bhagavad gita and whatever your reason is is probably the same reason why I don't care about what's in the Bible.

[@HourForRevival]

Your Heart Is Stone Your Ears Are shut you dont have an Ear to Here What God says Cause your not willing To Give it a chance The bible Says Gods Word Was Inspired By God And wrote By Man Making The Word Of God Valuble It Is the only Book That Is Alive You Dont Read it It Reads you Its The only Book in The world That Was ever God breathed also The bible Has Been on The New york times best sellers list sence it was wrote if you cant see that Miracle your blind God Speaks both threw his word to his people and Odably To his peaple who belive his voice like i do. Can can do all things Nothing is Possible For those who belive And Nothing is Possible If We Belive God the Key Here Is Belief It Takes Faith to Have a Realtioship Faith is Not A Normal Acction Its What We Who Know him Persnally Are We are Faith Cause The father in Heaven Maniefeast his love Threw us ,.The word Is not A Verb or an Adgitive He Is A Person Jesus Christ Is The Word Of God Made Manfest In The flesh The only One Who can take away my Sins And yours The bible says That we are at war with God our flesh wars against him Thats why He calls us to walk in His Way in His Spirit Pilate Asked Christ A Quistan What Is Truth The same your asking me now And i answer As Christ Answered Him Again your Asking The Wrong Qusitan you say what is truth But Jesus Said he is The Way The Truth And the life no Man Comes to To The father But Threw Him. I know God So I know What He said Is true Casue he is Truth Go Back and listen to what you said orlginaly Though Only A Fool has said To Be a fool means your ignrant of The Truth that God Is Real Again your On Words Show His Proof of Himself he is showing you him self as real all you have to do is have the faith of A child to Accept it . The Books of other People are just books they carry no life Giving truth They Dont show the love of God threw there righting they show A crupt view of pure love for God so loved you ( the world) He gave his Only Begoton Son so That Who So Ever would Belive (there is that word again) on Him shall not persih but have ever lasting life He dont want you without him forever he came to love you and to live in your life ...and to live his new life threw you ...thats why i fallow the word of God cause he holds true to His promises thats the best answer i think you will ever get . If man had faith to belive God And obey his voice he would end all of the worlds suffering but until man can come to Jesus they can do nothing if they come to him they will have the anwers for all sickness all deasies will be cured murders would sees only if people would have faith and obey Gods voice there is your answer to it all my frined .its histrocally proven Jesus lived That He died but it takes faith to belive He rose from the Dead. you know you call me a christan but that means i fallow Christ Frined Jesus was Jewish But he is Still the Messiah The God of Heaven and Earth .and your heart knows it and your spirit if not burned by the hot iron of hell is Calling out begging for you to surrneder your life to Jesus he is know Knocking on the Door of your heart will you Answer .

[@urasam2]

I liked the speaker, she articulated her ideas and didn’t proselytise too much. However, she didn’t answer the objections to the Christian view of suffering, whereas Dawkins expressed view makes much more sense.

[@okfanriffic3632]

People (except psychopaths) have an innate moral sense, is it learned or innate, natural or supernatural? Wherever it comes from it cannot be from yahweh or allah because to know their morality we must look to the books and both books allow slavery. We all think slavery is wrong so our morality is not from those gods.

[@Jen8973]

Good look at how other faiths see suffering

[@dagwould]

Including godlessness. All the godless can do is look blankly and mutely at it as an inconvenient given. Not knowing what it is or does, only that they don't like it. Big deal.

[@Astronist]

Okay, the picture that emerges is that God is capricious: he helps some people, and lets others down (including Prof. Lewis towards the end of his life). I find this deeply unsatisfying. Also, the claim that God became incarnate and participated as a willing victim in this orgy of suffering is no answer as to why he hasn't taken steps to reduce the total pain level, especially from disasters and disease - unless of course the Devil has sufficient power to seriously limit his scope of action (which I think is not a Christian doctrine). I liked your summaries of how other religions approach the question, but I wonder whether there might be some non-religious philosophies which may deal with it in a more satisfactory manner than does Prof. Dawkins. Incidentally, you missed the point of the questioner who pointed out that 98% of all species have become extinct: clearly, he was referring to species which existed before humans ever appeared on the Earth. (But that's not really relevant to the discussion, because a species does not feel pain, and individuals may not even know they are they last of the species when they die.)

[@dagwould]

Not at all. What emerges is that when we reject God, we live in rejection of him. He respects our rejection of him and leaves us to the mess that we make for ourselves. Otherwise we wouldn't know that we are in the ShYt and would not seek to do anything about it. BTW, if you have no external reference point, how do you know there is suffering? Surely all you have is personal inconvenience.

[@anastasiadoxologia4846]

Jesus said " Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." Mark 10:11,12

[@_a.z]

Bloody hell I'm not becoming a Christian, it sounds like a death sentence!

[@DavidKnowles]

@a. y How exactly?

[@johnstewart7025]

From wikipedia: The Sunni view is in the middle between these two views, where they believe that God has knowledge of everything that will be, but that humans have freedom of choice.

[@curiousgeorge555]

That is precisely the Christian world view.

[@nikipedia2818]

There's a pretty heavy reliance on straw men and black and white fallacies going on here. Why does she think atheists believe in evil? Even if evil does exist it must either be because god created a universe with evil in it or he was powerless to stop it. In which case you are back at square one. I wouldn't keep bring up her boss if i were her. Someone might wonder who he is and do some research on him and that will bring up all the bogus claims he makes about hs education and credentials.

[@robertoesquivel4447]

You think those are the only two explanations for evil? They're not, but I understand if you have this thick emotional barrier between you and the truth you will never understand.

[@Resenbrink]

They've been crapping on about this question for years and still can't answer it.

[@Sergeantyummy]

And you have the answer? Its important to question these things, these difficult things in order to calibrate yourself with your circumstances and your beliefs.

[@DavidKnowles]

@robby rensenbrink Do you have the answer?

[@_a.z]

If suffering is bad why does "god" cause so much of it in the bible? Such as drowning almost everything on earth because he messed up and wanted to have another go? (p.s . . it didn't work) Omniscience! Pah!

[@paullafemina8260]

She points out the foolishness of other beliefs yet goes on to say suffering for a example is caused by the fall This boils down to.a telepathic serpent with legs persuading a woman made from a mans rib in a garden to get said man to pick a fruit from a tree. Hence bone cancer in children etc How sane is this?,How healthy is this belief?

[@_a.z]

Shit happens!

[@RkristinaTay]

This woman does an awful job at Apologetics. It sounds so therapeutic and cringe-worthy. I am a Christian and this makes me embarrassed, not strong.

[@robertoesquivel4447]

Yeah maybe you need to take a step back. Like the great metal band August Burns Red says, "He who keeps his mouth, keeps his life. I wouldn't pay a penny to hear your thoughts"

[@ramigilneas9274]

Worst apologist ever. ;)

[@danielwilliam4306]

2 main things wrong woman, you are forbidden to preach (1 Corinthians) and 2nd you are dressed like a man, wear garments that pertain to a woman!

[@_a.z]

Take religion out of the equation and all will become clear!

[@_a.z]

Shit happens!