This is a HUGE Problem

  Рет қаралды 191,577

Cube Master

Cube Master

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер
@jan_Masewin
@jan_Masewin Жыл бұрын
Intentionally setting up a misscramble would be a very convenient way to eliminate dangerous competitors
@jawstrock2215
@jawstrock2215 Жыл бұрын
harder scramble specifically.
@TheUntamedNetwork
@TheUntamedNetwork Жыл бұрын
@@jawstrock2215 That works for WR, but if your just trying to win your tourny then you could easily lose even if they had "much harder" scrambles. Remember you can only alter the cube by a move or two.
@jamesflames6987
@jamesflames6987 Жыл бұрын
A significantly easier scramble will lead to disqualification.
@jan_Masewin
@jan_Masewin Жыл бұрын
@@jamesflames6987 exactly, this
@J.J.J.J.J.J.J
@J.J.J.J.J.J.J Жыл бұрын
There's probably miscrambles that have occurred creating worse scrambles and stopping world records, but the competitor never knows, because they only check when there is a world record. Thus, misscrambles are just double penalising people.
@Dannerrrr
@Dannerrrr Жыл бұрын
if a normal scramble is 18-20 moves optimal, you're not gonna get much more mixed up than that. there's a limit to the distance from solved you can be, but it's an explosion in all directions. how much do you know about cube complexity?
@Dreamville4L
@Dreamville4L Жыл бұрын
@@Dannerrrr but what if, theoretically, max park was supposed to get a double x cross into pll skip that would probably be a world record, but it ended up being misscrambled. nobody would check if the cube was misscrambled right (cuz nobody would KNOW it was misscrambled)
@Dannerrrr
@Dannerrrr Жыл бұрын
@@Dreamville4L is it worth discussing systems rather than optimal paths?
@TetraCubing
@TetraCubing Жыл бұрын
This actually happened with Ryan Minjun Cho who could have gotten Pyraminx WR single (it was on the same scramble as Ben Kyle’s former 1.28 WR single but Ryan got a worse scramble on that solve).
@louisrialland2527
@louisrialland2527 Жыл бұрын
I hope this gets more recognition. Somewhat unbelievable that a scrambler's mistake can lead to repurcussions on the solver's side.
@henrybusse7513
@henrybusse7513 8 ай бұрын
I find it mindblowing that the solvers are so heavily penalized for something that isnt even their fault
@coasterthekid8867
@coasterthekid8867 7 ай бұрын
@@henrybusse7513 it’s not about a penalty, but rather that it’s not fair to the other competitors for record holders that had 100% legitimate solved
@jonnyrichards
@jonnyrichards Жыл бұрын
It would be pretty easy to make a computer program or even a phone app to verify scrambles just by taking pictures of them
@thomasrad5202
@thomasrad5202 Жыл бұрын
would slow things down a lot, but maybe
@lswcs
@lswcs Жыл бұрын
@@thomasrad5202 At least it would be feasible doing this for top solvers :)
@StretchyDeath
@StretchyDeath Жыл бұрын
​@@thomasrad5202 it could be done with 2 pictures and computer vision. Shouldn't be too hard to do in
@BigDaddyWes
@BigDaddyWes Жыл бұрын
​ If you use mirrors you could even do it in one photo. Either way, you just have to double check it. You don't need software to verify, just one more step.
@6infinity8
@6infinity8 Жыл бұрын
@@thomasrad5202 Can't be worse than a DNF
@cube_range
@cube_range Жыл бұрын
Completely agree with your recommendation of "flagging" high profile solvers to double and triple check their scrambles. This is logistically the best way to do it IMO.
@tamardolenjishvili3542
@tamardolenjishvili3542 Жыл бұрын
100% best solution to the problem
@voodles3
@voodles3 Жыл бұрын
I actually think this would have the opposite effect. When mis-scrambles are intentionally performed to give an easier solution, the person doing it likely knows who their scramble is going to and that's why they do it. Having the star would just make it easier for them to know.
@tamardolenjishvili3542
@tamardolenjishvili3542 Жыл бұрын
@@voodles3 its highly unlike that both scramblers' intentions will be the same if they both will be obligated to check stared competitors cube
@eragon78
@eragon78 Жыл бұрын
@@tamardolenjishvili3542 On top of that, then when miss scrambles do happen, its much easier to know it was intentionally done, and find the scramblers who did it, and deal with the issue there. So it makes finding the people who are trying to cheat easier to find and verify their intentions.
@tamardolenjishvili3542
@tamardolenjishvili3542 Жыл бұрын
@@eragon78 yeap, definitely best and only solution
@TheOrigamiGenius
@TheOrigamiGenius Жыл бұрын
This may be a far-fetched idea, but we could use the GAN robots to scramble for us
@Adi_Cubes
@Adi_Cubes Жыл бұрын
no actually, thats a great idea, the only thing is that gan would have to make a better robot which can also turn the u layer (which it cannot yet), and ould also have to be accessible with all cubes, not just gan ones.
@benjaminschmutter
@benjaminschmutter Жыл бұрын
The real problem with robot scramblers is the expense. Delegates don't have an unlimited amount of money to buy new scrambling robots, so something like this is unlikely to work.
@TheAmazingHuman-Man
@TheAmazingHuman-Man Жыл бұрын
I came just to comment robots. Probably pretty far from that being affordable/feasible, but someday hopefully. Scrambling is not always an easy job especially when you’re also competing and it’s just mentally/physically draining. Or even just some software that automatically checks for misscrambles maybe.
@kattdemko7259
@kattdemko7259 Жыл бұрын
That would be significantly better, but the cubes could still be tampered with before or after the scramble, as well as during transport.
@infinitycuber324
@infinitycuber324 Жыл бұрын
@@benjaminschmutter Maybe at big championships like us nats/worlds scrambling robots can be used? idk
@anthonytonytelford2945
@anthonytonytelford2945 Жыл бұрын
I really believe that Yiheng should get the WR, only the AUF being different, as opposed to almost any other misscramble altering almost the entire solve.
@Hermanator1124
@Hermanator1124 Жыл бұрын
I don't know, I feel like we should never ever allow mis scrambles.
@mccardrixx5289
@mccardrixx5289 Жыл бұрын
​@@Hermanator1124 exactly! The WR avg is still 4.86
@duvi9898
@duvi9898 Жыл бұрын
​@@Hermanator1124 why not? The cube is still scrambled right?
@jasonchen5056
@jasonchen5056 Жыл бұрын
@@duvi9898 obviously some scrambles are easier than others. You can’t just say “it’s still scrambled” and say that it’s fair for someone to get a much easier solve than someone else
@eragon78
@eragon78 Жыл бұрын
@@jasonchen5056 Yea, but in this case, it wasnt really easier. By basically every metric it was virtually equally as difficult, there was no advantage. Since this sort of thing is already done on a case by case basis and not a blanket rule, I think that it should definitely count as the WR. Especially when considering the 5th solve didnt have as much pressure when he already had the WR by the 4th in his mind. That really does effect how you perform, and it cant be overlooked.
@TetraCubing
@TetraCubing Жыл бұрын
I definitely agree that misscrambles are a huge problem, hopefully the WCA does something about this.
@abhaythecuber1837
@abhaythecuber1837 Жыл бұрын
Use GAN robots to scramble
@Dumbledorf1234
@Dumbledorf1234 Жыл бұрын
​@@abhaythecuber1837 wait that sounds like a good idea:O
@samueljehanno
@samueljehanno Жыл бұрын
​@@abhaythecuber1837 but they are slow
@Deathranger999
@Deathranger999 Жыл бұрын
@@abhaythecuber1837 How much money do you think the WCA has lol.
@daileeedunno
@daileeedunno Жыл бұрын
if felix's 6.88 is allowed, then how come a misscramble which is 99% identical to the original scramble isn't allowed? it just feels like a whole double standard to me. maybe standards have changed with time, but i believe that the world record should be Yiheng's 4.75
@Technoplane
@Technoplane Жыл бұрын
yeah but now it doesent matter yiheng got a 4.69 world record avg
@kupaN9
@kupaN9 Жыл бұрын
As a complete novice, I think the difference is that in the first case the number of steps to solve was identical but in Yiheng's case it reduced the number of steps needed by one move.
@daileeedunno
@daileeedunno Жыл бұрын
@@kupaN9 it didn't, it just changed the last move from a clockwise move to an anticlockwise move, the move count stayed the same.
@rich1051414
@rich1051414 Жыл бұрын
@@daileeedunno Disqualify is always given. Rarely exemptions are given after an uproar, if they determined the misscramble was still a 'valid' possible scramble, so no advantage was given. It is possible that the misscramble wasn't considered valid for one reason or another, even if the solution used ended up being the same number of moves.
@cch8034
@cch8034 Жыл бұрын
@@Technoplane now it really doesn’t matter since he got a 4.48 avg
@AndyMok
@AndyMok Жыл бұрын
it was very pain to watch his reactions in person, this misscramble is really unfortunate
@jameschea.
@jameschea. Жыл бұрын
it sucks so much that misscrambles have caused many results to be dnfed lately. also it is crazy that a scrambler would purposely make a scramble easier for top solvers because they should no that if they get a good result the scrambles will be checked and it will just create drama and waste time.
@ItBeOnai
@ItBeOnai Жыл бұрын
The organizers for South East Champs last year actually did mark the top competitor’s score card, though it was mostly to let the runners know to take that cube to a more experienced judge. I can see the same thing working for scramblers too
@Dr_exztravagant
@Dr_exztravagant Жыл бұрын
I think the best way to prevent misscrambles is to have one of those Rubik’s cube robots scramble the cubes so there is no mistake.
@George-li1yv
@George-li1yv Жыл бұрын
I feel like a pretty simple solution to this is have a picture of the scrambled cube. Like there's websites that can show what the final scrambled cube should look like for a particular scramble. Quickly checking that can avoid misscrambles if integrated right
@Yurio
@Yurio Жыл бұрын
I really hope if WCA is still discussing this, they can reverse the decision. This case is the bare minimum for a misscramble, so if this doesn't count as a correct solve then no future misscrambles should count.
@TesserId
@TesserId Жыл бұрын
I can imagine having a way to check scrambles. One way would involve a box with four mirrors in a square tilted at 45° to show 4 of the 6 sides simultaneously, along with one face shown directly (not in a mirror), to show five sides overall. Stereo imaging could overlay the image of this with a reference image to immediately reveal any pieces out of place. And of course, the image could be displayed on a monitor/projector, for everyone to see and so everyone can know it was a fair scramble.
@ster2600
@ster2600 Жыл бұрын
Just a phone app to check scrambles using the camera would be easy
@n4cubing
@n4cubing Жыл бұрын
I scrambled for Zayn Khanani’s 1.02 WR Average, the delegate checked the scrambles before they were even sent out. It’s crazy what’s been happening recently
@AnthonyRochester
@AnthonyRochester Жыл бұрын
I was the scrambler for Jode Brewster's 3.88 and I was initially a bit worried it could have been a misscramble - I was checking my scrambles but not really thoroughly. Fortunately the reconstruction showed scramble was right.
@nasdfigol
@nasdfigol Жыл бұрын
Wait, you scrambled for Joe Brewsters sub 4? Cool, lucky u didnt mess up haha
@AnthonyRochester
@AnthonyRochester Жыл бұрын
@@nasdfigol correct
@Feverstockphoto
@Feverstockphoto Жыл бұрын
I mentioned on Yiheng's video about 3x3 robot scramblers before. Also simple handheld scanners can be used very easily and quickly to scan the scrambled cube and compare it to a predefined scramble in it's software, app. It can notify if it matches or not. There would also be a need to have senior delegate person or persons overseeing everything that leaves the scrambling table. It's not rocket science. If we can send man to the Moon reducing or eliminating these mis-scrambles should be a walk in the park. I've never once picked up a tin of beans in a supermarket to open it and find peas. It's up to WCA to get their act together 👍
@sebastiannielsen
@sebastiannielsen Жыл бұрын
Why are misscrambles punished on the solver? And why are the solver banned from competition at a intentional misscramble? I mean, its not the solvers fault if the scrambler cheats in favor, and this could be used to eliminate competitors scramblers dont like. A idea would be this: If a misscramble is caught: If its for another solve - then just record the time for that solve. For example: If the 2nd solve is given the 3rd scramble, record the time as 3rd solve, and then intentionally give 2nd scramble for 3rd solve, and record 3rd solve in column for 2nd solve. If its a scramble for a already completed solve - record the best time for that solve, and award an extra solve. If other scramble, use a computer program to compute the MOST optimal solve for the intended scramble, and then count number of steps the solver took. If solver took fewer steps than optimal solution for intended scramble, take his time, and divide the time with his steps + 1. So if solver took 20 steps in 2.1 seconds, his "per step time" is 0.1 sec. (2.1 / (20 + 1)) Then add the difference in steps to his final time, so if optimal solution was 25 steps, he would finish with a time of 2.6 sec. This should compensate for the advantage the solver got due to the misscramble. If solver took equal or more steps than optimal solve for intended scramble, then just award time as-is with no modifications, since then solver clearly got no advantage.
@TheBookDoctor
@TheBookDoctor Жыл бұрын
Your suggestion about marking the scorecards for high-level solvers to promote double-checking is a very good idea, though. I help organize comps (printing the scorecards) , and I will incorporate that into my workflow. Thanks for the idea!
@OlgaFyodorova
@OlgaFyodorova Жыл бұрын
This was my thought as well. Appoint a "scramble checker" for fast solvers' cubes. Your idea with two scramblers' signatures is great. One scrambler scrambles and checks, the other double checks.
@benjaminschmutter
@benjaminschmutter Жыл бұрын
0:37 im taking credit for this connection, i pointed it out in the livestream What you said at the end with the extra checks for top competitors, I think most of it is good. Actually the idea where both scramblers check is would be smart and relatively easy to implement. The thing is, where to draw the line for "top competitors" is very ambiguous. Should it be anyone who is a world record contender? Continental record contender? National record contender? Anyone who may podium in a major competition? Anyone in finals? How about local competitions? The point is, everyone always needs the same scrambles to ensure fairness. Whatever measures used for the highest level of competition must also be used for anyone else.
@fc3x336
@fc3x336 Жыл бұрын
I think there can be a line drawn somewhere. (at UK comps at least) the groups are generally sorted by speed, with the 'fast group' last. Maybe it would be worth having the double signature scorecards just for that group
@InfinityCuberRS3M
@InfinityCuberRS3M Жыл бұрын
Watched this live, it was so heartbreaking and soo so annoying I believe Yiheng's solve definitely should count
@jeremiahajam1949
@jeremiahajam1949 Жыл бұрын
How did he react? I feel so bad, especially since he’s just a kid:(
@ThatCubeKidd
@ThatCubeKidd Жыл бұрын
5:42 A friend pointed out to me that I was in this video. Didn’t notice until watching the video a second time. lol
@dirp_dcb9531
@dirp_dcb9531 Жыл бұрын
I don't get the part of verifying the scramble though. It's literally the easiest part 😭
@J.J.J.J.J.J.J
@J.J.J.J.J.J.J Жыл бұрын
4:24 max park type scramble is very possibly what will get a sub-2 second solve with 12 tps in the future
@Herbert.
@Herbert. Жыл бұрын
Very insightful. I'm sure this is something that can very easily be automated. A simple app that loads the scrambles, verifying the scrambled cube with the camera (three adjacent sides should be sufficient). Sure this takes extra time for the scrambling process, but as you said, this could be an extra step for more experienced/faster cubers (although this classification is subjective and will undoubtedly lead to more discussion).
@williamdowling7718
@williamdowling7718 Жыл бұрын
Why not just have a 3rd party check the scramble before the attempt starts? Right before the cube is placed on the table. Each scramble could have a corresponding image set so that each side can be verified before the attempt starts.
@kasparaslienys1458
@kasparaslienys1458 Жыл бұрын
On miscrambles themselves: Most of the miscrambles go unnoticed. Yes, really. Because of survivorship bias, we only notice the ones that break records. Also, at least in my short organiser/delegate/competitor experience, the fastest groups are prone to having the most issues with misscrambles. Why? Because the most experienced scramblers are competing in this group. The remaining best scramblers tend to avoid scrambling duties because they want to watch how the fastest ones solve (this is not absolute everywhere, but that's my experience so far). What remains are usually nowhere near the top and thus, errors begin. Rule imposed double-checking the scramble before sending it out is a nice idea, but, considering the paragraph above, the second "more experienced" checker isn't as experienced as we would like. Usually, the scramble is checked with 2-4 sides matching, because checking more than 4 is really, redundant. Still, it takes time; even to check 2 sides optimally, you'll spend at least 2 seconds (look at screen, side A -> Look at cube, match side A, look at cube side B, look at screen, match side B), given that the cube is already in your hands. It might seem like not much, but if we did that for every finals scramble, it would quickly pile up and bottle-neck the whole processing of the competition. Although, I tried punching in numbers and it wasn't anything too bad. Still, finding an extra person from organisational perspective sounds like inconvenience at best. In my practice, top 3-5 competitors always receive double/triple checked scrambles, especially in the finals. Sometimes, we only allow the best scrambler of the group scramble for them. This is my and only my opinion: a misscramble is not fair scramble. period. All records (read: all results) should be achieved on fair scrambles. period. The standard (so far) proceeding is this: if scramble is found to be unfair while the competition is not over, it should be replaced with extra. If scramble is found to be unfair after the competition, the result is illegitimate, as it is not done on fair scramble and thus, it should be removed. Even considering one move misscramble that only affects AUF, it is slippery slope to allow it; because it's an arbitrary selection of how many moves and when applied to the scramble can be allowed and when not. This (as far as I know) goes against the spirit of WCA, which values fairness (check 11e3 regulation) over dubious results every time. My biggest condolences to the competitors that did everything right and got punished for errors of others. Again, disclaimer: this is my personal opinion and in no way representative of WCA's. But, given the fact that the punished top competitors showed being able to do it on almost-a-fair-scramble, it's only a question of time when they will do it on a fair scramble. The scrambler robot: logistics make it very unfeasable. It's not cheap, you have to store it somewhere, you have to transport it, you have to protect it from accidental damage. As a delegate/organiser I already have 1/3 of all my containers filled with comp equipment. The twisted corner advice: If you notice a twisted corner during your solve and you're sure you didn't twist it yourself, don't stop the timer and ask for delegate to come to you. Stopping the timer indicates that you've finished solving and twisted corner is not solved cube (duh), thus, you'll have harder time convincing the delegate to give you an extra instead of dnf. Meanwhile, if the timer is running, the incident isn't technically over AND you technically don't know if you have a bad result, which is indicative for a motive to purposely alter the puzzle to get an extra. I learned this from Von Bruchem myself, lol. You'll get extra 95% of the time, if not more. These are my 5 cents.
@drmonkeys852
@drmonkeys852 Жыл бұрын
Wonder if someone could make an app that just let you take a picture of a cube and verify the scrambles for you?
@kasparaslienys1458
@kasparaslienys1458 Жыл бұрын
@@drmonkeys852 that's extremely problematic solution; scramble secrecy would be in shambles. Scrambles during competitions are usually displayed in pdf format or printed on paper. Making an app that reads pdf, converts it into virtual image and then compares with fotos is just asking for trouble. If it miraciously weren't buggy, it would open the scrambles for more chances to be leaked. Scramble secrecy is taken very seriously by the wca.
@mattmatt244
@mattmatt244 Жыл бұрын
This was so painful to wait for 😭😭
@Elijahthecubeyboi
@Elijahthecubeyboi Жыл бұрын
Nvm u were first
@abhaythecuber1837
@abhaythecuber1837 Жыл бұрын
They should invent a robot for the WCA to do scrambles
@ichokefinals
@ichokefinals Жыл бұрын
looking forward to this vid. u don't disappoint
@DongyoungLee212antisune
@DongyoungLee212antisune Жыл бұрын
Im also concerned about corner twists during scrambles as there’s no way to check that.
@DongyoungLee212antisune
@DongyoungLee212antisune Жыл бұрын
@@four_cubed yeah but how do they prove that it wasn't them accidentally twisting the corner during the solve and it was the scrambler
@DongyoungLee212antisune
@DongyoungLee212antisune Жыл бұрын
@@four_cubed I have scrambled in comps before and if you have too, you will know that they don't check if the scrambles are correct by looking at the pics since thats too hard and there is gonna be atleast 1 cube thats loose af
@draakisback
@draakisback Жыл бұрын
It wouldn't be hard to have a computer display the sides of the cube to the judge and have the judge check the cube before presenting it to the competitor. If you had multiple redundancies, you could easily find misscrambles before they are given to the competitor. Another solution would be to create a program that takes the misscramble and checks to see if it's still a legal scramble. If it's off because of one minor move, the WCA should automatically just ignore it. One opposite move is not going to make that much of a difference even at the highest level. Obviously each puzzle should have their own tolerance for this, for example square one would be a lot different than 3x3. And finally we're not have like a a gan robot scramble all of the cubes? You don't need a Bluetooth cube to use something like the gan robot, and having a robot do the scramble means that it's probably going to be correct every single time.
@darkphoton_15keV
@darkphoton_15keV Жыл бұрын
Why cannot the whole community digitize the whole scramble process? The assigned scramble is sent via an app and after the scramble the faces of the cube get scanned by the phone's camera to check for the correctness. This shouldn't be hard to implement.
@MrCatalyst56
@MrCatalyst56 Жыл бұрын
come on it's 2023, automate the scrambling by a machine
@Gretchaninov
@Gretchaninov Жыл бұрын
It's super-frustrating. In Sydney recently, a guy got one of the best SQ-1 solves ever - around 4 seconds. But, of course, it was a misscramble and didn't count. I usually record my solves and I've found at least one misscramble, but only by one extra move at the end (possibly an accidental turn in the box). I DNF'd anyway as it was a blind solve, but it's annoying to have to sometimes do extra solves because someone messed up. I agree with extra checks for top cubers. In fact, maybe the scramble should also be checked under the box, to make sure no accidental turns occurred. Or you could have a cover that holds the cube in place or something.
@QuantumQber
@QuantumQber Жыл бұрын
At my last comp, One of the scramblers was intentionally scrambling randomly and not following the scramble. I got a extra because of it.
@cubeflipper
@cubeflipper Жыл бұрын
Thanks for all this new information that I didn’t know before! Thanks.
@thomasstokes9412
@thomasstokes9412 Жыл бұрын
I was scrambling a fair amount at the European Championships last summer and we had to write our ID numbers on the score card so that any problems with the scramble could be traced back to us. This is also the case for all the local comps I have been to in the past 5 years. I would be surprised if they weren't doing that at the SE Asian comps mentioned in the video. I think having another experienced competitor check scrambles for the top solvers might be a good idea. But if they are doing that then they might as well be scrambling instead of the more in-experienced scrambler. I have two suggestions: The WCA could introduce a rule which requires any scramblers for the fastest groups to have a minimum amount of experience scrambling or competing. Or if a scrambler is found to have deliberately mis-scrambled a puzzle then all their results from the competition are DNF'd or some other disiplinary action.
@joeyoest1105
@joeyoest1105 Жыл бұрын
Agreed. I was surprised that the intentional mis-scrambler only got an 10-month suspension for intentionally cheating. It seems to me that that’s deserving of a much harsher suspension or a ban.
@username7790
@username7790 Жыл бұрын
I'm not a cuber but from an outside perspective, this just seems unprofessional and embarrassing for the cubing community. they should definitely need to fix it
@samwizeG
@samwizeG Жыл бұрын
In my opinion once a record is set it should be held. Unless the can prove it was intentionally tampered with, to make it easier
@davidepstein7397
@davidepstein7397 Жыл бұрын
as someone who has had a world record taken away due to a misscramble i 100 percent agree that there should be further action taken against this issue
@speedsnake2
@speedsnake2 Жыл бұрын
Which one
@samueljehanno
@samueljehanno Жыл бұрын
👍
@FatedGamer
@FatedGamer Жыл бұрын
Sounds like there needs some software validation either through a picture with algorithm or small scramble devices on the table that will follow a shuffle input and just set it down and not let anyone touch it.
@asailijhijr
@asailijhijr Жыл бұрын
If there's a problem of scramblers making misscrambles that are easier to solve on purpose, then the body that validates world records needs to have some lasting power over the scramblers. Either by payment structure, or by holding publishing rights to records they hold, or by publishing their names and giving them honour in the general community. If the body that validates or publishes world records doesn't have power over scramblers that lasts beyond the conclusion of these competitions, your problem is going to continue indefinitely.
@comicsansgreenkirby
@comicsansgreenkirby Жыл бұрын
A more immediate solution is to add a 'Misscramble' tag to the records list, so if there is a WR, it can still be up there, but viewers will need to decide for themselves whether this truly counts as a WR.
@DZSRUBIKSCUBE
@DZSRUBIKSCUBE Жыл бұрын
It's really painful for Yiheng
@Napert
@Napert Жыл бұрын
For 1-2 move mistakes, you could just put an asterisk next to the time to notify that the solve might not have been 100% correct or whatever
@gabrielwykle
@gabrielwykle Жыл бұрын
It would be so simple to create an app that would show each face after the scramble. Require a second scrambler to verify and I don't see how non-malicious misscrambles still happen
@6TDOW66
@6TDOW66 Жыл бұрын
Scrambling multiple cubes seems wiser than checking scrambling of one; unlikely to make the same mistake twice. Also delivering them to the table together; even if the tray falls, they're unlikely for all to get same errors. Different ppl can scramble different cubes of the set if you doubt intent as well as precision.
@lorddeathside
@lorddeathside Жыл бұрын
print out the scramble and have it checked right before the solved.
@baactiba3039
@baactiba3039 Жыл бұрын
I think that accidental misscrambles should be allowed. After all, it's still all up to randomness how the cube turns out.
@hellboy19991
@hellboy19991 Жыл бұрын
while i agree that a lot of misscrambles should be allowed, this logic is very flawed. one random state of a rubix cube is (theoretically) a solved cube or only a handful of moves away from its solve. There is a reason why the scrambles are monitored if something seems problematic, because you want to give everyone a very similar chance of winning a competition or record. In essence: Not all misscrambles are made equal and thusly they should not be treated equal.
@orangeapples
@orangeapples Жыл бұрын
Robots should be doing the scrambles, verifying the scrambles and boxing the scrambles in little paper boxes. Give each a 1-5 star difficulty rating or whatever. Maybe even have a printout of what the scramble should look like so both the competitor and the judge can verify before starting. If something as simple as placing the cube on the table wrong can be the difference between WR or not, then you can’t leave it up to chance.
@hunter-yt4eq
@hunter-yt4eq Жыл бұрын
i think for averages like yiheng's he should get an extra for the last solve too because he didn't need a good time when he first did it
@BwakBirb
@BwakBirb Жыл бұрын
As you suggested at top skill levels to have two scramblers to verify, why not have two cubes both be scrambled and reference them to make sure they're in the same position before starting?
@klapiroska4714
@klapiroska4714 Жыл бұрын
Double (or even triple) checking scrambles, at least on national and worlds events would definetly be a good idea. Also, there could be some experience requirement for 1 or 2 of the people who check the scrambles, just to try to get rid of neglegent checking. I think there should also be a clear rule, that the inspection of the scramble should not be done by the one who scrambled the cube. Another option would be to set some requirements for people inspecting the scrambles. This would likely involve training, supervision etc. and it would end up being quite costly, but it's effectively the system in industries where mistakes can have serious consequenses. Probably overkill for cube community. My personal preference would be to build an official app, where you verify the scramble before handing the cube to a competitor. It would only need some way to identify which scrable is supposed to be used (could be done with a QR-code, or a system based on name, ID number or some other kind of identification), and then two pictures of the scramble (3 sides on each picture). Identifying colored squares on a grid isn't exactly a hard problem for a modern smartphone. Once the app has verified the scramble (pass/fail system), you'd still need 2 people to verify the result given by the app.
@AsmodeusMictian
@AsmodeusMictian Жыл бұрын
Would it be possible to get one of the robots that have been custom designed to *solve* these cubes involved? I would imagine OSS could easily be developed that would scramble a cube to whatever config was desired. OSS would mean that the code could easily be verified by the community and accepted as valid with little to no issue.
@affegpus4195
@affegpus4195 Жыл бұрын
as long you see 3 of the faces, it shouldn't be hard to have a program in a phone to check if the cube is in the right state after a following the scramble steps
@karol1158
@karol1158 Жыл бұрын
How about scrambling machine? There are machnies that can solve cube in seconds, why can't them scramble cubes with given moves? Then you won't have to worry about whether the scrambling was done properly. When 'human factor' is removed from sport it becomes more fair.
@JimFarrand
@JimFarrand Жыл бұрын
In the cases where misscrambles have been deliberate, do we know the motivation? Are the folks doing the tampering trying to help competitors by giving them an easy solve, or trying to get them disqualified?
@ivolol
@ivolol Жыл бұрын
If you set a cube in front of a camera with 3 sides viewable, some vision learning on a laptop and some code, could it detect 90% or 100% of miss scrambles? Heck maybe even doable in a phone app
@ignDart
@ignDart Жыл бұрын
man i dont get why it's so hard to scramble correctly
@liamrichter9314
@liamrichter9314 Жыл бұрын
this is one of my favourite videos EVER! on the whole of KZbin!
@origamieder
@origamieder Жыл бұрын
6:32 hey that's me at the top
@SerKubos
@SerKubos 2 ай бұрын
Pos si
@Who_Flipz
@Who_Flipz Жыл бұрын
its not possible that it was turned bringing it to the station because the cubed would have to turn 3 times
@kyleochoa9004
@kyleochoa9004 Жыл бұрын
KZbin seems to recommend me the most random videos sometimes. So obviously I watch them cuz... Anyway I am amazed to learn that there is this serious of a competitive Rubik's Cube scene. Wow.
@ericstorm4613
@ericstorm4613 Жыл бұрын
Putting a hair in the cube would be very deadly for lockups.
@boomercuber
@boomercuber Жыл бұрын
This one was particularly hard to see as Yiheng is so young and that's a brutal thing to happen. I feel like if Feliks' misscramble from the start of the vid was allowed, then there's precedent for letting Yiheng's one count as they were both off due to one seemingly unintentional mistake. Also agree that there is definitely precedent here for the WCA to take a look at how scrambling is managed at comps. It's clear that the current system is far from foolproof, and I get the impression sometimes that speed of getting scrambles done and delivered to competitors is given far more importance than accuracy. I think you're onto something with the idea of flagging, for example, the top ten competitors in any round and having those scrambles double checked. Any extra time taken in a new process like this will be eclipsed by the time involved afterwards in situations of a WR misscramble. I really feel for Yiheng in this situation. My son is about the same age as him, and I know that this would not be an easy thing for him or me to deal with! (If only my son was interested in cubing though ha ha!)
@cookierobber
@cookierobber Жыл бұрын
Feliks and Yiheng's situations differ in that Feliks didn't receive an extra at the comp, so the alternative to letting it stand would've been DNFing it, which is obviously a far harsher punishment than giving an extra (as Tymon showed, it's still possible to perform well on an extra - hell, in theory it's even possible to do *better* on the extra). Also, the Feliks misscramble incident (and the controversy following it) was A) many years ago, and it's arguable whether we should be beholden to precedent from then; and B) is literally the reason it became standard practice to check for misscrambles after records. It's a tough situation and I hope the original solve is restored, but I don't think the comparison to Feliks' situation should be the reason why
@boomercuber
@boomercuber Жыл бұрын
@@cookierobber Yah all fair - I guess the thing I thought was most similar is that they were both seemingly unintentional misscrambles and only off by one clockwise instead of an anticlockwise (or vice-versa) move, ya know? Regardless of what happened after that's the thing they had in common initially. I definitely still feel like it's worth considering a change in procedure, because as this video points out there have been a lot of these situations for WR potential solvers, and getting to the cause of the problem at that stage would be beneficial.
@jeremyarcus-goldberg9543
@jeremyarcus-goldberg9543 Жыл бұрын
Great research for this video
@sumanmndl
@sumanmndl Жыл бұрын
They could just use image recognition to verify every scramble
@iamdozerq
@iamdozerq Жыл бұрын
Slow motion camera + scramble app and any judge (even me, i cant solve 3by3 at all) and few minutes after solve we can say was it misscramble or not. Wtf
@jawstrock2215
@jawstrock2215 Жыл бұрын
I don't get why the competitor don't call for suspected misscrambled before their attempt. to be inspected or reviewed or something.
@xqiuvmah
@xqiuvmah Жыл бұрын
If the scrambler mis-scrambles, fine them a huge amount of money. People will be damn motivated to scramble the cubes perfectly if a few thousand dollars were at stake.
@diegomastro5681
@diegomastro5681 Жыл бұрын
Just a dumb ass take
@qsquared8833
@qsquared8833 Жыл бұрын
There are plenty of scramblers and solvers, it should be fairly trivial for a decent app company to make an app that can take a pic of a cube in a mirror box to verify the scramble. For most competitors it could be done once, at the scramble table. While for the fastest competitors it could be done a 2nd time when the cube is presented to them. That's seems fairly reasonable.
@BillyHudson1
@BillyHudson1 Жыл бұрын
A potential control could be to have two people scramble two cubes and make sure they match.
@SlowerCuber
@SlowerCuber Жыл бұрын
Comprehensive stories, analysis, and perspectives
@GullsForSale
@GullsForSale Жыл бұрын
I think that problem could be solved with a cheap webcam, OpenCV, QRcodes, and like a few hundred lines of python.
@Games-bl7hm
@Games-bl7hm Жыл бұрын
its the first time I heard about scrambling, but yeah, makes a lot of sense that something like this has to exist
@thekilla1234
@thekilla1234 Жыл бұрын
Allowing any misscramble for any reason is a recipe for disaster. The people doing these intentional misscrambles will just learn what they can get away with and do them. If a misscramble is allowed then it is essentially considered a legal scramble, because that means it must be allowed in the future for consistency. It seems incredibly odd to me that they just wing it sometimes, I can't see how that could ever end well for anyone.
@Abcwhatever
@Abcwhatever Жыл бұрын
I'm completely new to Rubiks cube competitions and I have no clue wtf a Miss scramble is
@epoc162
@epoc162 Жыл бұрын
The fact this happens is hilarious. Like, this doesn't seem like it should even be a thing.
@ryanjohnson3615
@ryanjohnson3615 Жыл бұрын
My unscramble time is going on 40+ years.
@JohnSmith-kf8mv
@JohnSmith-kf8mv Жыл бұрын
Is it so hard to check the cubes before giving them to the competitors.?
@KestrelForever
@KestrelForever Жыл бұрын
At this point I feel that there should be a machine that scrambles for the computer and boxes the cube.
@hawoi
@hawoi Жыл бұрын
me living in vietnam and not knowing there's a cubing competition
@adondriel
@adondriel Жыл бұрын
how are they not using a robot scrambler?
@abj136
@abj136 Жыл бұрын
Computer video check can verify a scrambled cube matches the computer’s scramble.
@ZeketheZealot
@ZeketheZealot Жыл бұрын
So here’s the thing: if the competition organizers sign off on a scramble and the cube gets to the competitor, then that should be an official scramble. It’s incredibly unfair to the competitors that a world record performance can be negated because the organizers fucked up in not vetting a scramble.
@zerotsang4604
@zerotsang4604 Жыл бұрын
Isn't it easy to check if the cube is scramble correctly or not? Just look at a picture of what the cube should look like on all 6 side and look at the cube.
@gkcuber
@gkcuber Жыл бұрын
For this reason, I think only experienced / at a certain speed Cubers should be allowed to scramble for world class Cubers
@ebn1412
@ebn1412 Жыл бұрын
Huh I thought a verification system for the scrambles is already in place, considering the highly competitive nature of these competitions.
@vaishanthjv2519
@vaishanthjv2519 Жыл бұрын
Was the extra not the original scramble?How did rihan get a 6 sec when it was basically the same scramble
@Gentoli
@Gentoli Жыл бұрын
Can't they have a robot/ camera check before they solve?
@jetseverschuren
@jetseverschuren Жыл бұрын
Why is there not yet a computer scramble verifier? As a programmer, it's not trivial, but should be doable enough
@MattMcConaha
@MattMcConaha Жыл бұрын
Probably just cause it is extra hardware that needs to be brought to the event, prone to failure that could be hard to fix quickly if the people there don't know exactly how it works, and unless the process is highly optimized then it would take more time to get the scrambled puzzles out to the solvers and slow down the event.
@jetseverschuren
@jetseverschuren Жыл бұрын
@@MattMcConaha That's fair. But there are solutions for it. Perhaps use a phone app. And/or only on the really high level games. If getting it correct is so important, and there are this many errors, I really expected there to be better solutions
@euclideanspace2573
@euclideanspace2573 Жыл бұрын
I know nothing about cubing even though I hold the 1x1 cube world record of solved in 0 seconds, but wouldn't it be trivial to make a robot that takes photos of all sides to verify the scramble?
@JaminRat
@JaminRat Жыл бұрын
Why does nobody produce a cube scrambler? I know gan make the robot but it could be done chaper and easier. This would remove all mis-scrambles.
@solver5k
@solver5k Жыл бұрын
Excellent video. Thanks for explaining mis-scrambles. A second person should sign off on all scrambles. It would hardly add any time to the process.
@Uncle_Servo_21
@Uncle_Servo_21 10 ай бұрын
Hopefully the “time base” will solve this
@KiWi220
@KiWi220 Жыл бұрын
i should say that they should develop scrambling robots like gan robot but one who can do scramble on a non smart cube
@stefanf922
@stefanf922 Жыл бұрын
Even if you need to have experienced people do the scramble, you could easily have an independent person verify the scrambles.
Using Numbers to Find the Greatest Cubers of All Time
15:28
Cube Master
Рет қаралды 63 М.
How Many Queens to BEAT Stockfish 17?
29:54
iwantcheckmate
Рет қаралды 30 М.
Жездуха 42-серия
29:26
Million Show
Рет қаралды 2,6 МЛН
Becoming the BIGGEST Snake in Roblox!
3:07:50
Daaash
Рет қаралды 369 М.
The Craziest Day in Rubik's Cube History
6:59
Cube Master
Рет қаралды 27 М.
The trick that solves Rubik’s Cubes and breaks ciphers
14:17
Polylog
Рет қаралды 2,6 МЛН
When Chess Cheaters Get Caught
6:56
Classical
Рет қаралды 8 МЛН
Matty Hiroto Inaba’s Incredible 3.08 3x3 Single
2:48
Luke Smith Cuber
Рет қаралды 18 М.
We Waited 6 YEARS For This Moment...
15:03
STUCUBE
Рет қаралды 107 М.
The BEST Method You’ve NEVER Heard of (APB)
8:36
Liam Highducheck
Рет қаралды 358 М.
Making another pickproof lock (but better)
15:14
Works By Design
Рет қаралды 5 МЛН
I found the best Rubik’s cube scramble!
17:20
CubeHead
Рет қаралды 327 М.
The Most Advanced Method for Every WCA Event
19:33
Cube Master
Рет қаралды 311 М.