Orings vs fire rings on a cummins diesel

Orings vs fire rings on a cummns diesel
I get asked this question all the time. So here is a video about it and when I think you should use it.

[@ryanallard4640]

Hey pal Just wanted to say I enjoy your videos and all the knowledge you have. Much apperciation to you for sharing it

[@CUTTERUPROB]

Thanks for watching. please share if you have buddies that need the help.

[@jassibrar8418]

I love this channel!!!! I'm so glad your Canadian, I know where I'm coming for my parts 😉

[@CUTTERUPROB]

Awesome! Thank you!

[@Kfiedler932]

Again another great video! Thanks for going into such detail. Have been on the fence with my 12 valve build sounds like fire ring will be the way to go for my goals.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

Right on!

[@buckshot927tx]

Thanks for your info brother!!!! Please keep em coming!!!

[@CUTTERUPROB]

You got it!

[@ricardomartinez4898]

Thanks, enjoy watching your videos.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

🙏

[@MalakaMotorSports]

Appreciate the Video, not many know what either is.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

🙏

[@dante04srt]

Perfect timing for this video. My 12v swapped K3500 is having HG trouble as my cooling system is building excessive pressure and pushing lots of coolant out. I put the engine together about a year ago (has just ~6000 miles on it) and did use 425 studs. I'm thinking I'm going to o-ring the head when I redo the HG as I'm under 450hp.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

I would oring for sure

[@ppump24valve53]

Coming from a sled puller’s experience- His way to go is to o ring the head and block for longevity- Keeping the factory ‘fire ring’ in the gasket. And yes, the correct sizing on injectors, timing and turbos / airflow plays huge on how long the head gasket will last

[@CUTTERUPROB]

Yep a lot that goes into it

[@mutantryeff]

I just had an ARP bolt on exhaust side of 3rd cylinder snap at block level on 5.9 (1993). Wasn't fun to get it out.

[@bullybluecoal1831]

Thank you Rob, this clears up a lot for me but also raises another question. In pursuit of a 6.7 12v, what are your recommendations for say 700-800HP? Already planning on 14mm studs.... I'm liking the reliability of the O-rings and not having to change out fire rings every 150kish miles. Keep pumping out the great content.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

oring will work just fine

[@dante04srt]

Picking up my o-ringed head tomorrow. Machine shop said thr head was .003 under spec after machining and recommended running a .010 thicker head gasket. Should be installing it all this week. Fingers crossed. My previous gasket and stud install only had 6000 easy miles on it but failed and was pushing combustion into the cooling system via the HG break (clearly evident on the old gasket).

[@CUTTERUPROB]

just make sure you do a retorque on the studs and as long as the block is be good you should not have a issue

[@dante04srt]

@@CUTTERUPROB I'll definitely be doing a hot retorque on this new gasket. I neglected to do a retorque at all this last go-around, as I was just following the instructions from ARP and didn't realize it was imperative.

[@elroyelblander6277]

Well put sir👍👍great stuff...

[@CUTTERUPROB]

Thanks. Please share if you see guys talking about it

[@elroyelblander6277]

@@CUTTERUPROB 104👍... Seriously ,I really like your point of view and explanation on things...you're not an arrogant, opinionated prick who's just out to make a buck off the video, or who wants to people to think he's special... really enjoy your videos and material...will definitely look into getting parts from you in the future as well.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

thanks ! I really don't see myself as a rocket scientist , I don't know everything. when i get the website you if guys want to buy stuff that's cool witch will help the channel do more cool stuff / giveways . If not there will be part numbers for reference to make sure there buying the right stuff.

[@elroyelblander6277]

@@CUTTERUPROB 👍👍

[@TheJohndeere466]

I tried to cut the original fire ring out on a John Deere head gasket using snips and its very hard to do so I made a jig that clamps the head gasket between 2 pieces of steel and then I cut the hole in the head gasket out with a carbide endmill on a cnc mill. It works great.

[@robertmason8341]

Years ago, 80-90s, was dragracing suzuki gs/gsxr engines with nitrous. I would oring the top of the sleeve (flange) machining the groove to leave the oring wire about .010-.015” proud. Then set the head on the mill table, deck surface up. Put the head to block dowel in and bolt the jugs down on top of the head (these motorcycle used a cylinder block that is seperate from the crankcases. Indicate in on the center of the bore. Now centered over the bore, remove cylinders and you know your exactly centered over head where oring wire is in the top of sleeve. Use the same cutter used for the block oring, without altering its setting and cut a receiver groove in the head. I used a criterion style boring head with like a lathe tool grooving/parting insert. I had two inserts I had ground slightly wider than one another. The groove in the head needs to be about .005-.010” wider yet still directly above the blocks oring groove. This is to allow the block oring wire to displace a little bit of head gasket up into the empty receiver groove in the head. We ran copper gaskets but I’d imagine this would work for other gaskets like the one you showed with the in-built fire rings or even MLS gaskets. You might have to play with the stick out of the wire ring in the block (or vice versa if you put it in the head) and the depth and width of the empty receiver groove. This is common practice in top fuel dragsters/funny cars, at least it was, can’t speak for recently as I haven’t kept up. Imo, the oring wire in one side and and empty receiver groove in the other side (head/block) produces a much better sandwich bite on the the head gasket. Before this, was just oring the block and the head gasket was the fuse (first thing to let go when everything was hooking up and on a killer pass. After the receiver groove that went away and would actually start breaking other parts when pushing it hard. Kind of validated that it was working really good. Over the years have seen copper wire used, copper fire rings made from sheet copper, stainless hoops made from large stainless tubing machined on a lathe into the rings, composite/graphite gaskets cut for a copper fire ring. There’s even a ring used in some Indy cars engines and other exotic racing engines called a Wills ring. It’s a hollow tubular ring/hoop but gas filled, just like the solid fire rings. Seen them when I used to have a shop on gasoline alley and neighbors built Indy car engines.

[@ChaosViper67]

Another great video. Just curious do you cut round groove in block and head for fire-rings? From my research that's the best way for longevity. With the length of time you are having fire-rings last it sounds like you're getting all the miles out of them that they're worth.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

I like doing both head and the block.

[@Tylerpoole]

Hey Rob, love the content and info in your vid’s. You helped me out a lot when I rebuilt my first 12v. Just a question about when you said you cut the receiver groves in both the block and the head.. do you install the o ring to both the head and the block? Or is the receiver groove in the head to squash the gasket into that groove with the o ring below in the block? Thanks!

[@CUTTERUPROB]

Doing both is for fire rings. ( in diesel stuff ). The oring we just use to add seat pressure tot he head gasket not as the seal

[@Tylerpoole]

Oh yep sweet. Thanks for that mate. And cut the o ring grooves in the head? Not the block?

[@robertoudokrapf453]

OLÁ . Assisti todo o vídeo. O que passo a informar não é uma "opinião" , é um fato que facilmente pode ser constatado por quem tiver conhecimento técnico para tal. Motores com cilindros "algemados" (como o é o apresentado neste vídeo) possuem deformações dimensionais quando aquecidos. O uso de "oring" em motores NÃO ALGEMADOS ´´e viável se forem inteiros e sem emenda. O uso de arame cortado é totalmente inadequado em qualquer tipo de motor a combustão ou detonação interna a ponto de poder ser identificado como uma piada. ABRAÇOS... Roberto Udo Krapf

[@MrF20accord]

Great vid Question what is the best way to remove the ring from a block

[@CUTTERUPROB]

best way is to cut them out

[@trevinmorrison5047]

Heh Rob love your vids. I am in Washington state, retired mechanic after 40+ years. most of my experience is with large diesels 5000 h.p. + such as E.M.Ds Manns etc. am building my first 12 valve for a 1993 f-350. am looking for a good block? will run compounds. what do you do for oil drains on turbos? what are your thoughts on #53 blocks? and storm blocks? Do you machine in a new drain hole? or do you Tie the two in, for compounds? What block would you personally use for this build, looking for around 750 at the wheels. also looking for good M.P.G. and reliability. Any input would be much appreciated.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

i stay away from the 53 block for the most parts ( i know there not all bad ) i like the older blocks for the 14mm mains ( pre storm ) for the oil drain i run dungs in the oil pan myself , check out the video;s onmy truck pig ( the 95 ) i do them on the engine

[@coalstang]

👍👍

[@CUTTERUPROB]

👍🙏

[@scottnachtigal1616]

Hey rod. Great info. On fire ring and o-ring. I have a 12v that I overhauled had the head and block ground so they are flate. It's making about 550 to 600hp with a stock .10 over head gasket with arp 624 studs. It makes about high 50's to 60 psi boost. With about 10 thousand miles on it. Its putting comp. In the cooling system. In 20 min. It will max a pressure gauge out at 30psi. So I am going to o-ring the head. Do you think its possible that the head could be crack have you seen anything like that. There is no coolant in the oil or oil in the coolant. What do you think.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

i would say it likely just the gasket,

[@ashfordcombs8658]

Got a 95 12v stock other than 425 ARP stud and a number 5 fuel plate with boost elbow do you think at mildly fueled the head gasket will stay sealed if I do compounds for towing and to lower my EGTs not looking for big power just more towing torque too pull my trailer . Again stock with mildly fueled form with transmission already built to handle more power. My EGTs pulling a some hills around me run close too 1400 if I still say in it. Thanks for the videos

[@CUTTERUPROB]

more to do with timing then power at the point. i have run alot of tow rigs with no oring. but if it does blow i would oring it. thanks for watching

[@ChaosViper67]

So you've been having good luck with o-rings on a 6.7 with a stock MLS? I've heard about shops doing it but not much reports back on forums which is where I get my info cause there are no performance shops near me.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

I oring all the 6.7 heads we do.

[@darrinstone49]

Do you do much pocket porting & if so at what rpm do you notice a difference? Guessing mid to higher rpm flow but no clue on my cummins.

[@benjamininman7754]

Well I see where they say there useless smashing the loc-wire into a gasket of that sort. To seal things to any H.P. you could possibly make is .080" recess in head and set the wire not "stainless" either down into block anneal copper gasket spray with halomar and back together she goes. Not sure your cylinder pressures but I'm sure they aren't like my aa/fd altered. That setup has worked for me for years

[@CUTTERUPROB]

a top fuel cylinder pressures are around 5500-6500 psi mid mod cummins is a 5000-6500psi full race can see 8500psi. the o-ring that done on the diesel just adds seat pressure on the stock fire to help it take more, full race stuff more guys go to the .105 steel ring ( fire ring) with a groove on both sides, the gas world has always done things different, like doing a hoop, one day i would like to try doing hops on a diesel and seeing what happens, but need the time for that,

[@weduhpeople8504]

With a Cometic mls head gasket is it prefered to use a copper o-ring? Using a steel o-ring a copper head gasket is usually used? I’m having a K20c1 block for my 2018 Honda Civic Fk8 Type R sleeved with Darton mid sleeves and the machine shop is cutting the groove for copper o-rings together with a step deck. My head guy says it should be one or the other. The machine shop will start on my block next week so I need to let them know what to do. My last Darton sleeved k20c1 block was open deck and no oring or step deck made 686whp 575 ft lbs. It failed because the last tune the tuner had the di injectors off in a di port injection combo which was too lean and burned a hole in cylinder 3. I am using ARP +625 head studs.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

A lot has to do with if the block and head have a receiver groove. I personally would run a ss ring.

[@Andres-ow2sn]

Fire rings are Top Fuel is way of sealing cylinders... 150/200k miles is a big number... Brand new cars don’t last that long... Great Video...

[@CUTTERUPROB]

🙏

[@jamesebanks5543]

Can o-ringing the block help to eliminate a very small gouge next to cylinder bore?

[@MechanicalMafioso]

Couple items I’ve seen not addressed in this great vidya that I’m curious to your opinion on. Cylinder pressure at lower rpm’s IE higher dwell time with compounds vs a single charger. Do you see a need for O-rings at lower HP numbers with compounds vs a single charger? I would imagine yes but not a Cummins engine builder so this is just hypothetical. Reusing ARP 2000’s or anything outside of ARP 625’s. Most manufacturers say no, but what’s your experience been. Oh Xotic is a Canadian company.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

This is a good ideas for videos. I will answer in some videos

[@hotrod6919]

On o-ringed head's, If say someone installed but need to either pull head back off or run a different short block, or just buying used heads, does the o-ring wire need replaced every install

[@CUTTERUPROB]

Most of the time the wire is fine. No need to replace

[@adambatchelder4121]

So I work for a shop that maintains a fleet of CNG converted cummins powered garbage trucks. The shop can't keep head gaskets in stock. I'm wondering if o rings would help.

[@mikemosley1396]

I feel like I'm right on the edge of needing to fire ring or just O-ring. 6.7 build around 850hp with compounds Daily drive and tow frequently. Block is at the machine shop now. What's your opinion?

[@CUTTERUPROB]

Lot of guys running 900 plus on ring. But same can be said about fire rings. I personally would just run orings. For that if the rest is stock

[@charlesisbell4340]

My question is why does anyone need that much HP for a daily driver and towing. I mean most semi trucks are under 550 horse and move 80K lbs GVWR just fine.

[@Acquireboy]

When I was o-ringing engines, we always cut the rings into the block or liner tops, because the block is more substantial and way less likely to warp and need resurfacing, and then having the ring grooves recut. Heads are just more fragile, especially aluminum ones. We also did not have special tooling or templates to align the grooves, and using the cylinder tops for alignment was simple and almost fool-proof. An interesting variation was a very shallow, about .040" wide and .005" to .010" deep grove only, that the fire ring could "bite" into. This was done to iron block decks on formula "Super V", water-cooled four cylinders with aluminum heads. The heads apparently could walk at high RPMs and the gaskets were more durable if they didn't join this dance. The difference in expansion between an aluminum head and iron block was always a concern. I wonder if this shallow receiver groove opposite an installed o-ring might make a really durable installation on a standard-style gasket, biting on both sides. A final memory. On BMC "A" series four-cylinder sports car racing engines, the fire ring of the gasket was not round or concentric to the cylinder bore. Without pantograph technology available, we would tease up the rolled over edge of the fire ring on the multi-layer metal gasket, and lay a fine wire (.025"?) into the fire-ring itself, then carefully burnish the fire ring flange back down and install the gasket with Copper Coat gasket spray. This added far more substance to these gaskets and we never failed one modified in this way. These engines were used primarily for club racing, so never accumulated high mileage, but this technique might be handy in some circumstances. I did love this video, takes me back to the old machine shop floor.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

I love hearing from guys that have / do it. I have seen lot of old gas stuff done that way. I like the head myself for ease. I have thought of do a groove on the block side to allow the gasket to go in. I will have to try that and see what happen. Maybe we will do that on the quest for the 1020hp ve Cummins. Thanks for commenting and watching

[@matthewsplawn729]

What do you think is a safe psi with compounds with a Vp truck and o ring? Daily drive and tow regularly.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

depends on the timing your running more then boost. but i would oring it if or wrong you have the head off

[@matthewsplawn729]

@@CUTTERUPROB ok thanks I wasn’t sure about o ring or fire ring it’s a vp truck so no crazy power I plan on getting tuning from 1badvp and not sure what the timing will be on a quadzilla. I o ringed my 12valve but only made about 500hp. Thank you for the videos they are awesome

[@dman1049]

Any tips on removing the wire after a heads been o ringed? Wanting to install new wire on a used head

[@CUTTERUPROB]

I cut them out on my mill. But you can tac weld the wire to them and pull them

[@josepeixoto3384]

I do Rover´s K engine,4 cyl. 1.4 and 1.6 and i use both,the gasket fire ring and a copper ring just to the inside of it; no groove in head nor in the block; copper goes from 1.70 mm down to 1.40 mm,and that takes 4 x 4 or 16 tons (16000 kgs),very easy calculation, copper at 32000 psi yield The 10 bolts of 8 mm compress the gasket+copper with 5000 x 10 or 50000 kgs should i expect some kind of failure on that ? started 2 years ago ,done 8 or 9, so far so good

[@CUTTERUPROB]

Lots of guys do it the way. I don’t see it being a issue

[@bearwolf1316]

Hello I have a 12 valve fresh rebuild with arp625 and fire rings. I don’t have a good answer as to weather I do my first start up with or without coolant I’m hoping you could tell me what the best thing to do it since you do these engines all the time, Thanks

[@CUTTERUPROB]

I do all Cummins no coolant on first start. I just bring the oil temp up to 180-190 on the filter

[@bearwolf1316]

@@CUTTERUPROB okay so start it up with no coolant get it up to temp at the filter, I bought a thermal gun at harbor freight today. After that I shut it down and retorque while it’s hot or wait for it to cool completely before retorque? Thanks! Great content as always

[@trevinmorrison5047]

Rob I have been using fire rings for all my professional life. On industrial engines, you say consumer-available rings for small engines are eroding?? inferior material?? have you P.M.Id any of these rings? (positive metal identification) take one to your local scrap yard, they will have a PMI gun and can give you the exact material composition. I suspect they are just mild steel?? on the big boys we use Inconel material, and I have never seen any signs of erosion ever. Just my opinion rob, have some rings made out of decent material, and never suffer erosion problems??

[@CUTTERUPROB]

i am not sure what there made from i know its not mild steel and they dont rust, but thats a good idea to have them tested

[@notchback93]

What’s a proper amount of protrusion for the .041 o-ring over the deck, Any opinions or knowledge is welcome

[@CUTTERUPROB]

Depends on the gasket. But for the most part I do .012-0.018

[@notchback93]

@@CUTTERUPROB my landed at about .013 -.017 I used a Isky grooving tool on a bare block. What would be the best cylinder head gasket?

[@CUTTERUPROB]

@@notchback93 I use mahle or Cummins

[@bladenrexroth2555]

Can a fire ring groove be cut into a wet sleeve? If so? What would that cost?

[@CUTTERUPROB]

You can yes. That would question for the shop doing it.

[@bladenrexroth2555]

@@CUTTERUPROB thinking about doing this to a DTA360 and wasn't sure if the fire rings needed to be in the block or could be put in the sleeve. Appreciate it.

[@jackzeilsdorff3164]

Whats a good head gasket to use with o rings with 600 hp?

[@CUTTERUPROB]

mahle or cummins is what i use

[@jackzeilsdorff3164]

@@CUTTERUPROB thank you sir!

[@incolink]

Where do you buy the fire rings and wire ?

[@CUTTERUPROB]

fire orings are from halsey diesel , oring is sce gasket

[@Dieselpwr]

I am 😂

[@bradleybono8304]

I don't want to run o rings or fire rings. What is the best head gasket I can get for common rail. I have arp 425 studs.

[@CUTTERUPROB]

mahle or cummins gaskets are both just fine. running a 5.9 without , but on a 6.7 much over stock i would recommend to oring at least i won't do a 6.7 headgasket un less it's ringed

[@fahmiabdullah4871]

You have for engine toyota diesel 1 kd gasket head

[@CUTTERUPROB]

So I don’t

[@esraacell5343]

Hey bro , can we make our fire rings

[@CUTTERUPROB]

cheaper to buy that, but you likley could

[@oldschool1993]

5 minutes of information intermixed with 15 minutes of "basically this and basically that"

[@CUTTERUPROB]

Yep

[@dangerdiesel3106]

What about the copper wire Isky sends? I get that SS is obviously stronger and won’t squish as much, but would the copper .041 wire be better than nothing?

[@CUTTERUPROB]

If your going to cut the groove and put copper wire. Just buy your stuff the ss wire for doing it. It’s cheap to buy Google sce 31541