Is what happened to the Downes Family Arthur's fault?

Was Arthur Morgan to blame for the death of Thomas Downes? Was the tragedy of Edith and Archie Downes' decent into poverty to blame on Arthur in red dead redemption 2?
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[@theimperialist2686]

It's not entirely Arthur's fault, what he pretty much did was speed up the process of driving the Downes into poverty. Thomas Downes was the one who willingly borrowed money from Strauss, so agreed to the terms of paying it back which he failed to comply with. Also, they were on the way to poverty whether Arthur was involved or not, since Thomas was dying of TB and that would have definitely put a strain on their finances.

[@aspirantdrummer]

Also, burrowing money to support your charity instead of your family wasn´t the smartest move either

[@dogeshow2651]

Doesn’t justify Arthur whatsoever

[@Amk4421]

@@dogeshow2651don’t ask for money when you can’t pay it back when it’s time to pay up 😂

[@marythecontrarian]

He already owed more on the house than it was worth meaning he was already in debt and Strauss is not the only loan shark tbh if it hadn’t been him it would have been someone else. The other loan sharks might not have physically beat Downes so he would have likely had a more dignified death but the wife having to sell herself and the son having to work in coal mines was going to happen whether or not he even took a loan, much less if he had taken it from someone other than Strauss. The amount of money Arthur or anyone else would have had to give him to keep his wife and child afloat would have been crazy. Yes, Arthur can afford it but most people could not. It was inevitable.

[@marythecontrarian]

@@dogeshow2651no but it answers was everything Arthur’s fault. No. Beating him was Arthur’s fault, everything else was going to happen. Even if Arthur didn’t come to collect the debt at all, they were still in debt even then.

[@morganblackhand2020]

Nobody is innocent here. Strauss shouldn't target the desperate, Downes should have thought more of the potential consequences and dangers to himself and his family before taking the loan, Arthur shouldn't have beaten him like he did. Overall though I'd blame Strauss over anyone else.

[@baldcerat6578]

Well when you think about it the less fortunate are typically the ppl who takes loans the most. Rich people dont need loans

[@Existential_Robot]

@@baldcerat6578 Actually not true. I know many rich folks that take a loan for a business, then use the profit from said business to pay it back.

[@hornetguy9063]

@@baldcerat6578actually rich people take out loans all of the time. They’ll put assets up as collateral and take out a low interest loan. Which isn’t income. So rather than draw a salary from a company, they take out a loan for the same amount, save tax dollars (since it’d be paid at a corporate income tax rate and not a personal income tax rate), and keep money in a place where it’ll grow faster than the interest rate of their loan. It’s a little risky but it’s an effective workaround to high income tax rates in places like California. The better way of putting it is that rich people don’t take out loans from sketchy loan sharks who have a wandering outlaw gang backing their business ventures.

[@bendavenport4136]

@Garland846 The fact that Dutch let Strauss and, worse, Micah into the gang is pretty much proof that the gang stands for nothing and Dutch tricks the others into believing otherwise.

[@Abdallasweity]

I mean Straus is just a representation of Jews back then and even nowadays being loan sharks and all.

[@warmcanadain7649]

9:58 she knows who Arthur is she even says “oh no, not you” she’s scared Arthur will hurt her family further

[@majorlagg9321]

I've played computer games since 1983. This one is the best game I ever played.

[@siyacer]

It must be crazy seeing how much games have evolved

[@majorlagg9321]

@@siyacer From the days of Asteroids and Adventure? Yes. My kids don't understand how I'm fascinated with how well done these games are.

[@الطابق30]

You must be a very, very expert in video games and know everything about games Video games amazing talent

[@majorlagg9321]

@@الطابق30 I'm better at proper grammar. Something, you should try.

[@johnrockyryan]

Damn bro that is amazing you saw the evolution of gaming and gaming consoles happen right before your eyes

[@danielja1832]

I'll make a case for Strauss and Arthur here. Ultimately, they were doing what Dutch wanted them to do, which was make money the only way they knew how. I think I would be tempted to treat the gang like a business and say Dutch, as the leader, should be held responsible for the actions of his underlings. The gangs actions should be ultimately done under his supervision, and him held responsible for consequences. Everyone else was just surviving the only way they knew how. As the gangs leader, he had control over how Strauss and Arthur collected the money, and I believe Strauss is a Red Herring, or a scapegoat. Not that Strauss and Arthur have no responsibility whatsoever, to a degree they had their own agency, I just think people go way too hard on Strauss, when Dutch signed off on all his actions, and would not have kept him around if he wasn't making money.

[@manbearpig342]

Makes you wonder what would have happened if Arthur didn't beat Mr. Downes. Obviously he still would have died but would his family have been any better off? Perhaps, but maybe not, one could make the argument that had Arthur not done what he did and given them money they may have stayed poor and destitute. Im not suggesting what Arthur did was right but maybe it gave them a life they wouldn't have had otherwise.

[@IrishColin]

They would definitely still be destitute because he already owed more than his house was worth aside from the debt to Strauss. More than that though is Downes was a grown man and made his own decisions. I think money lending is dirty work for sure but I have ZERO sympathy for those who borrow and can’t pay it back because they made a choice knowing full well the consequences (which everyone back then did) including beatings, debtors prison, losing what you own etc. I’ve spent my life in poverty but I’ve never borrowed money I couldn’t pay back no matter how tough things got because my poverty is NO ONE else’s responsibility.

[@mieszkoi2746]

​@@IrishColin Human life is more important than money, Mr Downes made dumb decision with lending money but that does not mean he deserves dying. You should have zero sympathy to the people that lend money to desperate people and then cause psyhical harm to them when they cant pay back. Banks wont lend you money when you cant pay it back

[@digitalbathrx4529]

Just started up an old save I was playing early last year. And I ran into Mrs Downes in Saint Denis. Could not for the life of me remember who she was. And this video pops up. Thank you!

[@GamingSkeptic]

Arthur accelerated the inevitable. As you said maybe that's the better way for them cause now rather than blaming God they could blame Arthur and keep their sanity. I'm so glad they made money in the end. Beautiful story overall and that's just a side story.

[@JubeiKibagamiFez]

3:39 Here's the thing, the first time I played this mission, I only threatened Downes, I never beat him. When he didn't give up the money, I thought there might have been an alternate ending to the mission, so I reloaded and did the mission again, beating Downes severely, with the same mission ending. The player doesn't have to beat Downes at all to complete the mission, therefore, Thomas Downes' fate would still have been the same, he would've have died, they would've have lost the farm, and the mother and son would've been left destitute. The son blames Arthur because the son has no one else to blame, and it's easy to blame a heartless thug who only cares about money.

[@Novocane23]

Saying that Arthur was responsible for Downes death is like shooting someone who is already fatally wounded. Perhaps Arthur shortened his time on this earth, but by how much? A few days? A few weeks? Maybe months? Typically, after symptoms manifest tuberculosis is fatal within 30 days to 3 years without some form of treatment. There were some forms of treatment, even in 1899, but most people couldn't afford to move somewhere warm/dry and relax. Just like we see Arthur continue to do his best for the gang as the sickness claims him, extended bed rest and relaxation just wasn't something the common person could afford. Which brings us back to Thomas Downes, he was out tending to his field, which is physical work. The area of the Downes ranch is just east of the Grizzlies, between Strawberry and Valentine. It can get pretty cold at night and during the winter, an environment that isn't great for TB patients. So realistically, at the point he's coughing when we meet him at his ranch, I would say he has at most a month left. We also don't know the exact timeframe from our beating of Thomas and Strauss telling us about his death. Possibly a couple of days to a week. At the end of the day, I don't believe Arthur was to blame for what happened to the Downes family following their first encounter. My grandfather once said that life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you deal with it. In the end, it was Edith's choice to become a prostitute and refuse to leave the region.

[@fuejrbtb]

Yeah, Arthur is just a good man for helping them

[@puncake8945]

Do you think women had choices in 1899? Lmaooo

[@SIsReal]

14:36 you know a game and character is written well when you start to tear up just thinking about Arthur

[@loudelk99]

Downes borrowed the money. He had to know that someone would be by to reclaim the money.

[@Heisen_burger-dude]

I hate how so many people people just defend Arthur for no matter what. Like seriously, these people don't understand the story at all. Arthur himself knows he isn't a good person. At the end he just fixed what he could

[@Big-w9r]

15:28 "arther puts his hands on the forman" forman: gets slammed to the ground

[@lewis9159]

In part, yes, because he still took money off desperate people and assaulted a very ill man. Thomas Downes was trying his best, despite his illness, to provide for his family at a time when poor farmers had very few means of getting medical or financial help. Arthur isn't solely responsible, the society of the time was brutal for the sick and the poor, but he isn't completely innocent either.

[@Petmyhead]

ultimately it's the faullt of the dad and strauss

[@tigerfanfrv]

the Downes took out too many loans and relied on a known loan shark.. TB was not curable at the time. Mrs. Downes had some other options, she could have become a seamstress, worked at a factory, a nanny, a housemaid, anything. She chose that path. they are responsible for their own downfall. What happened to the Downes family is not completely on Arthur's shoulders. Saying as much implies that is Arthur had never visited them they would financially stable family. Mr. Downes even said they own more than the farm is worth. That implies that they owe multiple people.

[@shimozukachi5887]

i get it. you're trying to defend arthur. he's a bad person. being the protagonist doesn't change that.

[@ChiefThanos]

Thomas was part of the genocide of indigenous in the game. The game shows hints how you're all curses because of this and it's up to the individual to come to the light like Arthur

[@CleverRiley9]

You know, i never made the connection between the end slide and it being Archie and Edith, just assumed it was the Gray and braithwaite kids for some reason.

[@alimurph18]

I think Arthur sees his wife and son in the family but he won’t touch on that because he barely talks about them

[@enigma7310]

*The kiss assing for Arthur in these comments are crazy, but if Micah did the same thing to the debt victims yall would had hold nothing back....*

[@redfs7414]

If it wasn’t Arthur it could’ve been Charles. Or Micah. If Strauss hadn’t lent him money another loan shark he couldn’t pay back would have. Thomas Downes destroyed his own family

[@enigma7310]

@@redfs7414 *But if you was Thomas Downes and you were just trying to feed your family in the 1800s where they barely had toilets you will beg to differ, they were desperate, The Vanderlinde gang where just a gang of Vicious outlaws just like the rest of them making lives harder for people than they already were...😂🤷*

[@Pktommy1]

I mean, you can absolutely kill someone in a fight. It’s easier than you think. Downes could’ve had a concussion for instance.

[@unclesamiam5079]

I blame Thomas Downes solely. He knew he was sick, most likely knew he was dying and took a loan he knew he couldn't pay back from people who wouldn't be keen on no getting the money back. He left his family in a bad way.

[@40088922]

it really wasn't Arthur's fault, he may have "helped" the family get to rock bottom, but he wasn't the one who didn't think about asking money from a random stranger, he wasn't the family's failed breadwinner and he wasn't the one who put the family into debt, maybe his beating ultimately sped up Thomas' death, but everything else was abound one way or another, including Thomas' death ANYWAYS. it's true what the video says, it's just easier to give misfortune and a dead man's failures a form in Arthur... and I don't even know if I blame Leopold either, he was a loan shark, so he loaned, then he had to collect, "render unto Caesar" and all that, though he really should've chosen his clients better, in all fairness

[@sargepent9815]

Downs was severely ill with TB. If Arthur never went after him, he would have lived less than 6 months

[@DRourkey]

They could have improved the downfall so much if they made strauss the secret bread winner the gang relied on where they gave away what they stole to collect high yield interest and Arthur could have known that's the way things are and feels dirty about it, making the collection missions necessary for the gang, but the way it stands strauss doesn't seem like he belongs in the gang to begin with and the one forced collection being the sickness one does dull the story a bit. However this is something I only realized years later

[@michaelw6277]

I don’t see a scenario where the Downes family wasn’t plunged into to poverty. Thomas was two feet into the grave by the time Arthur met him. If anything it was pretty stupid of Strauss to lend money to someone who was very obviously dying and it was insane of Thomas to take on a loan his wife was going to have to pay. Yeah Arthur maybe shouldn’t have beaten a sick man to death but if Arthur wasn’t a part of this there wouldn’t have been anybody to lift Mrs Downes and her son out of the situation they almost certainly would have found themselves in anyway.

[@Heisen_burger-dude]

I think the point is that Arthur beat up a person who tried to make the world better while caring for his family and being sick. He couldn't apologies to thomas neither

[@lexi.j]

I didn't even hit him once during the mission and still got through it

[@ashvsthedeadite6091]

It was all Strauss, Arthur i felt never liked the idea of loan sharking. He would rather rob and steal from the rich than beat down the poor.

[@20somthingdrifter11]

Strauss's predatory it is lending practices, that much is obvious. On the other hand I placed most of the blame on Thomas Downs himself, the man knows he's dying, he knows his family is in desperate straits, but rather than attempting to do whatever he can to at least get his family on a upward trajectory before he passes, he's spending his time taking out loans and collecting alms for the poor, don't get me wrong charity is a good thing, but just like if you're on an airliner that has trouble you need to assist yourself before assisting others. Thomas should have been worrying about trying to help his family situation first before trying to do all the grandiose gestures that he was working.

[@bisvizstudio1242]

"I prefer robbing banks over usury. Seems more dignified, somehow." - Dutch van Der Linde

[@elegrin5170]

In this economical conditions, even NPC's life doesn't be so well..

[@sznxo]

tbh thomas shouldnt have taken a loan that he couldnt even repay in the first place, strauss shouldnt have preyed on the weak, and arthur..arthur was just doing his job. edit: thomas wouldve died anyways, since he had tb and since he could not repay 5 monehs i dont think he would be able to go to a sanatorium.

[@mzboone2012]

I would say it was more so leopard Strauss didn't he longshore the people that borrowed money from them

[@mvgikk1969]

its arthurs fault that they got to their lowest and also his fault they got to their highest

[@aeoey5251]

The dad was already dying and he accepted money from a loan shark. The dad is at fault.

[@squidward9747]

It’s literally Arthur’s fault yes. 😭. If downes lived longer maybe he would’ve been able to pay off the debt either that or the gang would’ve collapsed already and his family wouldn’t be in the trenches

[@marcnolan2409]

End of the day a debt is a debt if he couldn't repay the loan then he shouldn't have taken the loan in the first place

[@johnnyaverage9694]

Arthur and the gang destroyed scores of families all over America.

[@AidenTan-t4n]

The thanks buddy part is very funny

[@Flutterbutter22]

Yea I agree no one is incent but maybe if you don’t have money Don’t take out a big loan you know you can’t pay back

[@andreiflorean6068]

I disagree with the statement that he ruined their life. They had an agreement he wasn't forced in. Arthur shouldn't have beaten him or any of the others and he wouldn't have contracted tuberculosis. In that sense, karma's a bitch.

[@spikethedog6901]

Beating the shit out of someone who isn’t even attempting to defend themselves is actually a lot worse than you say it could be. There’s been people that killed others with 1 punch. Thomas has 2 black eyes by the time Arthur is done with him lol. He beat the brakes off him in 5 min

[@oxyyclan3649]

4:00 he probably got a concussion and a broken jaw

[@Kimberly-cx9uv]

Also it is said that Edith Downes is the founder of the Golf Course in Los Santos in GTA V is that true? because if so why didn't they put "Los Santos" in the Newspaper article, i know California and Los Santos are supossed to be literally the same thing, but when already making that connection somewhat, why not put Los Santos instead of Carlifornia unless it is a coincidence?

[@astoak8262]

I don’t think rdr and gta are in the same universe.

[@seanmccann3667]

See IV never blamed Arthur cause Tomas downs will slowly kill his hole family if they catch tb so was it really Arthurs fault. Even if he doesn't effect the family his funeral will cripple them anyway.

[@tsp988]

It’s not Arthur’s fault at all, nobody forced this man to take that money. He knew what the deal was when he took the money, his dumb wife and son can blame Arthur all they want but they know the truth

[@krrishivk0428]

Bro Mr. Downes started the fight tho

[@Lennox1224]

Its not his fault, Downes was dying anyway and his wife would've still turned tricks to get by.

[@channel45853]

We are all gonna die, but that doesn't mean a murderer is excused for rushing the process

[@Angeloading]

murdering someone thats dying doesnt justify it bro lmfaoo

[@shinrugal]

Thomas could have lived another 5=10 years if not for the beating Arthur gave him. Remember that Arthur's disease was accelerated due to his capture and torture by Colm and the shipwreck. Without those events, he still would have been sick, but he would've lived longer before the illness killed him.

[@TPFB129]

Was just going to say that!

[@Lennox1224]

@@Angeloading Nobody said it did, the question was , was it Arthur's fault that the family went broke, and no, it wasnt his fault, the family was already in debt with the bank before Strauss lent them money and Downes was already dying.

[@ccmcgaming327]

Unfortunately dowws just like arthur would have died no matter what he was already in debt so nothing good would have came for the family also if it wasnt for arthur the rest of the family wouldnt have the means to move west and be rich honestly arthur beating downs might have been the best option for that family

[@kieranmccabe]

If only they sent Micah instead 😢

[@fistinyourface7053]

Downes was a good man. Too good. Too good, because his will to help others hindered his family's stability. He sought help and found it from the least proper people for the task. So Arthur kinda just sped up their homesteads' downfall. Thomas was already sick with TB, he was already on a loan sharks' ledger. If not Strauss, it would be Colm. And as we know Colm's crew, it would end the same, or way worse.

[@8YoureRetarded8]

How is this even a question?

[@planderlinde1969]

In my opinion Arthur might have accelerated Downs' journey to the grave but ultimately the result would have been the same. The family was already in financial troubles and tuberculosis would have killed him at some point down the road.

[@mrgoober6320]

A quick google search reveals that a TB infection would be fatal within five years.

[@0xyg3ng0d7]

And they accelerated Arthur into the grave as well

[@Nifty102]

Yeah kinda like how the stress put on Arthur caused his TB to accelerate

[@cadence4527]

Two things: 1. Edith actually comes to Horseshoe Overlook to confront Strauss after Thomas dies, informing him that Thomas had died and even pays off some of the debt. 2: some NPCs around Valentine will elude to Thomas’ passing. I heard the shopkeeper at Wallace Station mention it and another instance, I heard the doctor in Valentine mention it as well all of this is before Strauss informs Arthur himself that Thomas had passed away.

[@juhaeerjayran4246]

man edith is a better tracker than the pinkertons

[@1mdr0w5y]

I never knew that, rdr2 has sm hidden details man

[@juanluisquinteroreyes7108]

I always had the questions: 1) How did Edith get the camp's location? 2) Why did the gang let her go after it's evident she discovered their hideout? The latter's location was supposed to be a zealously guarded secret and Edith had all the reasons to report such location to the authorities. 3) Once leaving, why did Edith did not report the location to the authorities? Being them the responsibles for her husband's assault, death and her and her son's desperate situation, she had more than enough motivation to report them, she would be the first one to want to see them in prison or hanging. Please don't tell me she did not know who they were, since they were the most wanted criminal gang in the USA, Arthur alone had a $5000 bounty on his head.

[@Ivkoni]

Interesting thing is that you can do the mission without laying a hand on Downes. You can just choose the intimidate option and Arthur won't hit him. He'll throw him to the ground in the cutscene, but no punches will be thrown.

[@ChuloInYourCulo]

Which is kinda pointless and annoying since Arthur still gets TB

[@BH02377]

That’s no fun!!

[@Dr.Gainzzz]

Let’s be honest though on our first play through almost 99% of us picked to beat him up. It’s canonically how the story is meant to unfold I believe.

[@Qwertzuioyxcv]

@@Dr.Gainzzz Like no! When I played the game firts time than mutiple times my Arthus allways just threaten never hurts if I can choose not to. It is more fun that Arthur want to be and is a good man but hist family don't let him be.

[@dastemplar9681]

But you still get infected with TB and the family still blames you for their downfall.

[@thechosenone4422]

A minor easter egg, that connects RDR2 and GTA V: the golf club in GTA V were called by the name of Edith Downes. A small detail that perfectly connects and finishes this story

[@kevinmcdonald951]

wrong

[@plebisMaximus]

@@wulfhere83 That implies RDR2 is based off entirely real history, which it's not. There never was a state called Lemoyne in the USA.

[@plebisMaximus]

@@wulfhere83 You're most likely right it's unrelated and at most a cute easter egg, but I love being a dick about semantics and you mentioned California, which isn't a real thing in Red Dead, so it had to hit you this time. Apologies lol.

[@titanusgodzillaa4274]

@@plebisMaximus California was mentioned multiple times in the story and even some animals have California in their name so its canon in rdr2

[@plebisMaximus]

@@titanusgodzillaa4274 I'm a moron with a horrible memory, you are correct. Disregard previous comments.

[@troperhghar9898]

Arthur: stop lending money to desperate people who cant pay Strauss: rich people dont need my help, but my work keeps us fed

[@dazmaz1269]

He says after I've caught the third meal for the day

[@Merica1776o]

11:55 I think Charles played a major role in the way Arthur turned out, especially his sacrifice. Charles demonstrated that you can be a loyal friend but still do what’s right, and he rightly called Arthur out on it. Virtue isn’t always convenient and we often don’t understand it. Until you end up in a better place, despite it’s difficultly. In this case Arthur found a better place to camp. Thats certainly one way in which God will test the hearts of men, unbeknownst by them. I’m also proud of Arthur’s humility when speaking with the nun. Rockstar and Obsidian have the best story writing imo.

[@dudebro8811]

I think the duality of Arthur between high and low honor is fascinating. Both are just as much who he is as the either, but this projection of what's inside to the outside world (to us, the audience). The honor system isn't come cosmic alignment between good or evil. It's how the character feels about themselves. Ultimately, playing Good Cowboy or Bad Cowboy doesn't make a difference. But the expression of the characters' internal dialog gives us real insight into the characters. Jack's expressions are much more plain to see because there really is no future for him, the story is over. If you think the concept is interesting as I do please cover it because your analysis is very welcome in the community.

[@Fishpasta4]

Arthur is no more responsible for Thomas Downs' fate than Thomas is responsible for Arthur's, they are both symptoms of wider issues in each others lives. For Thomas, Arthur is the embodiment of his desperation brought about by his failing health & finances. Turning to a loan shark to try and fix things in the short term which leads to Arthur shortening his life. For Arthur, Thomas is the embodiment of the consequences resulting from the lifestyle he has led for most of his life. While he may not have been actively aware of it Arthur's actions do have an affect and eventually these things catch up to you. This is shown literally when Arthur contracts TB from Thomas, something that wouldn't have happened if he wasn't collecting debts for Strauss. If I were to point a finger I'd point both fates to Strauss himself. Strauss targeted the Downes family specifically because they were destitute and had no alternative, Arthur himself tells Strauss how foolish it was to loan money to a family that had no means of paying it back. Meanwhile Strauss specifically instructs Arthur to not go gentle on Thomas because he 'doesn't like his sort' an act that would lead to Arthur's own downfall which Arthur comes to realize during his last days when he reflects on his life and the choices he has made.

[@shinrugal]

While Arthur didn't kill him he definitely accelerated Thomas's demise. If you remember the first time you meet Thomas is when you go to Valentine with Uncle and the girls. He's building a charity house, which goes unfinished due to his death. That charity house theoretically could've fed his family for years after his death if he could have been left to finish it. Tuberculosis would've killed him within a few years but at least his family would have been taken care of.

[@andrewf9423]

Is that house finished in the epilogue?

[@shinrugal]

@andrewf9423 no it never gets done. Or rather it might be built but it's repurposed for something else.

[@IrishColin]

Except Downes owed more money than his own house was worth between all the debt collectors he borrowed from, and if it’s for charity that it’s not like that house was gonna give him all sorts of cash. In case you’re unaware it can’t be called charity if you sell it for full price. Even if he did though, at best he would’ve paid back his debts but his family would still be destitute. The reality is Thomas Downes ruined his families lives with his choices.

[@shinrugal]

@JohnMarston1911s it was repurposed as something else

[@tacosaus5924]

I think it was good for the Downes that Arthur came into their lives since without the money he gave them in the last encounter, they wouldn't be able to get anywhere. Even if Arthur hadn't beaten Thomas, he still would've died from the TB, making his family have no money and thus sending them deeper into poverty.

[@whodatn4l948]

Arthur expedited his death by beating him into a pulp, who knows how much time he had left, he could've had time to make more money and keep the house...he still would've died but maybe they could've kept the house and Edith wouldn't have had to turn to prostitution.

[@thebandit9982]

Arthur only caught TB cuz of the beating. He was in Downes face and that’s when Arthur got coughed on. So no Arthur wouldn’t of caught TB had he not beaten downes

[@sociopathicsquirrel3989]

I think he meant thomas wouldve died from the TB regardless if Arthur beat him

[@tacosaus5924]

@@sociopathicsquirrel3989 exactly

[@violetaa_aa]

I'm fairly sure the Downes family even ends up wealthy by the epilogue, because of arthurs money giving them a new opportunity.

[@VileMr.Grinch]

The lack of understanding how the body works, and the Arthur meat riding in the comments is wild. Arthur 100% accelerated Thomas Downes death, his body is already quite weak with his immune system trying to fight off one hell of an illness, fever, cold sweats, shivers, and now it suffers the trauma of being punched, kicked and thrown about like a ragdoll by an absolute unit of an outlaw (hardened and used to fighting) in his physical prime. Downes even has to pull himself up with the fence because he's so weak after the beating he can't even stand on his own. Did he make a stupid, desperate decision in taking the loan ? Yes. Did he deserve what he got ? Absolutely not. Arthur CHOSE to beat an already dying man, and that imo, is THE most cruel and despicable thing we see Arthur do during the game that is out of our control, he also wouldn't have contracted TB if he wasn't so eager to beat Downes.

[@hornetguy9063]

Fair. But this is basically how loan sharks have always operated. They target people who are denied financing elsewhere, because lenders who only have legal means of getting their money back see them as too risky to lend to. Sharks have enforcers like this. So it’s probably not the first time Arthur has beaten a man up in search of payment. He had no idea Downes was essentially dying of TB. But it really comes down to organized crime being a nasty thing.

[@ambientnoiseaddict]

Dick riding or not, you still sound like you're taking this wayyy too serious/personal yourself.

[@VileMr.Grinch]

@@hornetguy9063 No I know all this, but I'm not talking about the ones we don't see in his past. The ones we do see, like Winton Holmes, Wrobel, the kid in Rhodes, but specifically Wrobel you can get away with simply intimidating him, you don't even have to take the gold ring if you already know about it and don't want to do that to him, so we know Arthur is capable of not beating them to a pulp. But with Downes we are forced to beat him, and in the cutscene it continues a bit, it's completely out of our control, it's all Arthur's own decision

[@mrspo7012]

You are right, the same thing Micah did to Arthur.

[@batkat0]

I think a lot of people underestimate how damaging a hard punch or kick can be.

[@theneweraofmusic5578]

You need to cover the fact of how Arthur could have been an amazing father. Like literally just how much the youngsters meant to him despite of him being a ruthless and honestly a cold killer but he’s a teddy bear once you get to know him. And I know you’re up for the task of him being a father or a father figure.

[@assbutt6969]

he was a father

[@theneweraofmusic5578]

@@assbutt6969 he was but not to the full extent… you see he tells rains falls that he has a son but he didn’t had that interaction on a daily basis and plus he die so young that I don’t really count it. Now with Jack you can see how he is or with Lenny, Archie, hell even kirean the “o Driscoll”

[@alienlife7754]

I don’t think Arthur would have been as good a father as you think. Remember when he and Hosea were discussing Hosea’s past marriage on their hunting trip? Hosea tried it but in the end drifted back into the life. I think Arthur would have been the same. Maybe he would send money to the woman raising his child and be a “pop in dad” every now and then but I don’t think he would have stuck around and become a farmer. In the end that’s what he wanted for John because because he knew John could do it. But he hi self? No.

[@ChasenColeman]

I think arthur would be as or just as good as john, john kinda neglected jack and abigail for a while if arthur settled down like john did, im sure they would both be good fathers@@alienlife7754

[@hornetguy9063]

@@alienlife7754do remember that back then, a woman having a child out of wedlock was basically a social death sentence. Making sure she was taken care of while not being able to physically be there was pretty big of Arthur. If not for misplaced loyalty, he probably would’ve stuck around and took care of his family. His failure to do so ate at him

[@androrobuiques9497]

How many other families have suffered a similar faith after their father or husband or brother or son was gunned down by Arthur's own hand?

[@TherealDexterMorgan]

Arthur Morgan clears

[@NamesPhimble]

You can’t change Arthur Stan’s minds

[@ros3m4ries]

I jist started the game and spend 46 hours into it. Though i believe that answer depends on how you played the game. I made sure to avoid killing innocent or even animals. Though i might have killed cops or hostile npc that could theoretically.

[@hrodebrt]

It honestly all comes back to Dutch, there's a conversation between Arthur and Dutch where he convinces Arthur to help Strauss if you wait on the missions. This is also why I don't believe Dutch was ever a "good" outlaw, he knew what Strauss was doing was immoral at best but because it made HIM money he allowed it and even pushed for it.

[@Foogi9000]

Exactly

[@liammurphy2022]

Has anyone noticed when Arthur picks up the cross of the floor and mrs downes is in the same shot u think it could be the first time he starts to feel bad about his choices that's what I got from it just a nice little detail I put together the other day during my 3rd play through (probably just me😂)

[@Aurainmaker]

There are several answers to the title, as it is more nuanced than a broad strokes question. Is it's Arthur's fault that Thomas died? Sort of, with a stronger bias to yes. The beating surely accelerated the TB, Arthur's TB also accelerates when he takes beatings and other similar bad health situations (Like Colm's torture, Guarma as a whole, the ending). Thomas was going to die anyway but it would have taken longer and Arthur was particularly brutal to Thomas who he knew was poorly because he didn't like him. If had been more merciful or pulled a gun on him instead of beating him, Arthur would not have caught the TB. Is what happened to the Downes family Arthur's fault? No. It's Strauss' fault. He predates on people who won't be able to pay back properly and Arthur was basically just a sentient baseball bat that Strauss used to extort the money out of Downes. Strauss is probably the worst of the gang, including Rat Bell and Dutch the Plan Man.

[@IrishColin]

Actually what happened to Downes and his family is Thomas’s fault. No one forced a grown man to take a loan he couldn’t repay on top of his other loans he couldn’t repay. How about some accountability here. I’ve said it in other comments but I think money lending is a dirty business but ultimately the choice to take a loan falls on the debtor, he was a grown man not a naive child, not someone mentally disabled, but a grown man. He knew the consequences of not repaying which he knew damn well he wouldn’t be able to repay. At what age do your choices become your fault?!?! Also don’t say I wouldn’t know because I’ve spent my life up until now in poverty and have never borrowed money I couldn’t repay no matter how bad things got because in the end your poverty is YOUR OWN responsibility and NO ONE else’s. I believe in helping people but that doesn’t mean it’s ok to borrow when you can’t repay essentially forcing the lender into being charity that they didn’t chose, that’s essentially just scamming someone out of money.

[@Aurainmaker]

@@IrishColin I'm not going to comment on your personal life but I'm sorry you've had to live through it. Think the overall point is simplistic. Downes has some responsibility, but it plays into the greater point of the capitalist society pushing the money rules the world appraoch further west. You can't live without it, and Sharks circle those who need it because they're the prey.

[@TheTwistedTraceur]

i think guarma is the thing that made the tuberculosis truly come out in arthur, he was really fine before that

[@stevepalpatine2828]

Tropical conditions and humidity is the worst environment possible for that kind of illness. Before antibiotics people with consumption (TB) were advised to stay in places with clean dry air, a lot of sanitoriums where in the desert and in arid alpine environments. Living in the Bayou swamps for months, and then being shipwrecked and being stuck on a tropical island, and then Beaver Hollow which has constant rain accelerated his illness. People could and did live for years with TB provided they stayed in dry climates. Doc Holliday had TB for years before he died.

[@goduxunike]

Solid point. Before the TB diagnosis, I assumed he looked sick because of some other disease from the island. Before he really looked fine. But what you wrote makes more sense.

[@stassie23]

Thomas could have died next day anyways either with his meeting with Arthur or without. Who would she blame? They already were broke af, so I didn’t blame Arthur to be honest. Just that woman decided to put all her emotions on Arthur.

[@mimonikeda5768]

Downes knew exactly what he was doing when he borrowed the money from Strauss. Arthur is in no way responsible for his death. Thomas would have died and his family would have wound up poor regardless of what Arthur did.

[@jacktaylor8195]

Think about it. If it wasn't Authur, it would probably be Micah who Strauss sent to retrieve the debt. And he would have absolutely robbed and killed the whole family.

[@billbombshiggy9254]

Okay, I have first hand knowledge of TB. I can tell you that you usually don't just contract it and start showing symptoms. You contract it and your body fights it, making you have it BUT you are asymptomatic. It's called latent TB. My husband and brothers in law contracted it from my father in law who, as the doctor said, likely contracted it years ago from someone who was active, and the stroke he had, triggered it. His body was weak and couldn't keep fighting it, causing him to go into active TB and start showing symptoms and becoming contagious. Latent TB is not contagious. My FIL, when he was in the midst of active TB, even a minor beating from a tiny girl like me (5'4" 125lbs) would have killed him. He's quite lucky we have modern medicine. One year of antibiotics later and he was cleared entirely. He had to do like six months of antibiotics before he wasn't even contagious anymore. So yes, Arthur did kill him. But I see what you mean that back then, he would likely die of it, and Arthur just sped it along. My question is what caused Arthur to go into active as fast as he did? I have to assume he was latent or would have been for a while, until the beating from the Odriscolls, combine that with all the stress from the gang, and his immune system probably wasnt up to par and it's why he went into active so quick. But you can take solace in the fact, likely everyone in that gang caught it from him, Micah included. Yes, poor Tilly, Mary Beth, etc. Whether or not they stayed latent through their lives is another question. Had dutch not taken the leap of faith, had John not killed Javier and Micah, and they likely would have died of TB.

[@aleNoyz91]

TB doesnt exist anymore

[@billbombshiggy9254]

@@aleNoyz91 I think you're thinking of smallpox. TB absolutely still exists and is still a problem in many parts of the world. Unless you're just joking around. Hard to tell. Either way, Google is your friend.

[@MrsJasmyn45]

​@aleACAB91 Oh, yes, it does. Tuberculosis is still around, and 1 million people die every year from it. We now have different kinds like DRTB. That stands for Drug Resistant Tuberculosis. This means medications won't touch this type of TB. Some research on your part might be a good idea

[@billbombshiggy9254]

Also, isn't the theory that Abigail died of TB?

[@billbombshiggy9254]

@@aleNoyz91 and yes, it absolutely does. I thought I had responded to you before about this, but it does. You may be thinking of smallpox which was labeled eradicated by the WHO in the 70s and by the 80s all routine vaccinations had stopped.

[@anthonyholmes5965]

I did catch this interaction of her in camp this last play through. I slowed down for awhile and caught a lot more conversations I’ve always missed.

[@cavemandude257]

Actually I don’t care about the Downes family any more than I would care about any other npc in red dead. We mass murdered entire towns as Arthur and beat thousands of people. We are a piece of shit and not better than Micah in this regard. The fate of the Downes family is the same fate that countless other families had in this universe. I don’t like helping them in Chapter 6. I still appreciate the story of Arthur and how he redeems himself but it isn’t actually that logical. Fans tend to romanticize the story but if we look at it cold it doesn’t really make that much sense

[@warrengouldthorpe5091]

Mrs Downes and Archie probably reminded Arthur of his own son and his kids mum

[@Shade04rek]

I have a thought after reading some comments. I think contracting TB is what saved Arthur mentally and morally. It might depend a bit on how you played him, but generally the story seems to try and show that Arthur is more ruthless up until that point of being sick and seeing the damage his past actions caused for others, if not only mentally, since I think the Downes's where already on this path even if Arthur never was involved. The interesting point I have though is that if Arthur never contracted TB, I think he would have remained more ruthless and unsympathetic to others, although while still knowing what's right, but also just not caring because of his own strength in self-preserving. I feel that strength kind of enables him to be willfully ignorant of his opportunities to do good, like when Charles needed to push him to not ignore the german family's plight by "playing evil" when Arthur in fact knows better. It makes me wonder if that healthy version of Arthur would have deterred Micah from poking and prodding him, which only happens because Micah notices Arthur's weakness of being sick. Micah might have been more of a suck up instead, while trying to "recruit" him to his thinking and style. Arthur's social status would have been even more feared and respected throughout many events, and he might even have stayed sided with Dutch in the end over helping John and the other "defecting" members. He'd maybe even make it to the events of rdr1 as a target, provided John would even survive with Arthur on the Dutch's side.

[@deleted_acoount_0530]

I think the canon may be: play low honor, get TB, then play high honor to redeem him.

[@Kimberly-cx9uv]

No, actually not, she would've still ended up poor, plus her Husband knew what he was getting him and *HIS FAMILY* into, actually it's her Husbands fault, it was kind of Arhur to help, they/he knew the rules, and that's it.

[@channel45853]

That sounds like Dimitri's line of thinking. And still, it's Arthur's fault that Downes died as quickly as he did. Just because a car is gonna crash sometime, doesn't mean you're excused for crashing it.

[@drrobotnik44]

​@@channel45853 No, it's strauss's fault

[@channel45853]

​@@drrobotnik44but Arthur actually did the job. Like the other men in the game, he could have said "No," to Strauss.

[@drrobotnik44]

@@channel45853 then dutch probably would have said something about it

[@Kimberly-cx9uv]

@@channel45853 That's the thing he would've died anyways, probably not even long enough to rake anything of worth up, but as he said in the Video he didn't really smack his Lungs or so.

[@endeavor691]

0:03 Before watching the video I would have to say by the time Arthur got to them it was already too late because Thomas fell for Strauss manipulation’s I mean, if you think about it Strauss could have sent John or Micah and the outcome would be the same

[@joelcarver8932]

I love how that guy says "you couldn't kill no one" and then Arthur later beats the sh*t out of Micah about 1 min. before he dies of TB. Tough as nails to the bitter end.

[@dastemplar9681]

In the end, Arthur does show the Downes family that he truly was sincerely sorry and deeply regrets for where he put the family. Both parties know and acknowledge that he can’t fix what he has done, but the Downes were at least able to see that there was indeed a change of heart in Arthur.

[@SillyNacho]

14:00 - You couldn't have worded that ANY WORSE

[@mttokrnk]

Imagine arthur getting salvia into the stew and everybody died of tb

[@wasabi5338]

Thomas was already a dead man walking at that point. Arthur killed him but honestly it was probably for the best that High Honor Arthur tried to make it right, because without him giving the Downes some money before he died (giving them a chance to leave and start new lives) then Mrs. Downes would probably continued working as a prostitute and Archie would get worked to death in the mines.

[@runicdiva]

Thomas Downes doomed his family, not Arthur. Downes could have gotten a loan from any other loan shark and it would have had the same outcome. I've known people who are like Downes, so charitable that they put themselves and their family into extreme poverty. I had an Evangelical Christian roommate years ago, she gave so much money to charities and her church that she only had $40 for food every month. I told her that she can't help others if she can't help herself. She didn't listen to me or her family that was telling her the same thing and things didn't turn out well for her.

[@MIKE2111ful]

And I bet you most of that money was not used for a good cause

[@arandomcivilian2988]

What happened to her?

[@MrsJasmyn45]

If you don't think the attack did anything horrible to Downes, then you do not understand much about a sickness like TB and the strain it puts on the body. Cause when a person is at a late stage of TB like Downes was, the body isn't able to recuperate. It's unable to heal from the wounds. The body is in a tired state, where moving around is a challenge on patients. That's why when you see a person who is sick without the ability to walk or get out of bed, that's the result of a debilitating illness, which is what TB is. To say that it only affects the lungs, you don't know anything about the body, or even tuberculosis, for that matter. I think it's important for you to research this horrific illness before saying anything like that.

[@richardemmart1954]

Debts are debts and should be paid. Any attempt to avoid the debt is trying to take advantage of the people you owe the money to and is highly disrespectful. When others wouldn't take a chance on your, they gave you a chance.

[@s0upra536]

Thomas Downes was a nice man. He was in crippling debt and extreme financial troubles, yet he still had the heart to raise money for the poor. He can even be seen donating money to beggers. Thomas was doing everything he could to help his family. He knew his time was coming, so he decided to do as many nice things as possible, including making money for the poor. Rest In Peace Thomas Downes, you were one of the nicest characters in all of RDR2

[@puzzlej7592]

no i don't think its arthurs fault. arthur didn't make thomas downes get tb. arthur didn't give them money troubles. if arthur didn't go to collect the money strauss would have sent someone else. i hate how edith blames arthur for everything. but i think it's her way of finding someone to blame for her unfortunate set of circumstances. of course she wouldn't blame her loving husband. so it's easy to blame the money collector. it's a sad thing that happened to that family. but if anyone is to blame it's her husband for making poor money decisions.

[@TheWilku22]

Arthur sped up the process, but Mr Downes would die anyway and his family would end up in the slums. The truth is all three of them are guilty - Arthur for being brutal, Strauss for being an agressive loan shark who will even target dead debtor;s family and Mr Downes for taking money to build fundation to get money for poor.

[@scrubbear2425]

Woah, I never noticed Thomas was there at the fist fight

[@TygerClawGaming]

Here's a hot take: Strauss is worse than Micah, Micah is an up front scum bag but at least he gets his hands dirty, Strauss sends others to do his dirty work. Arthur was being an enforcer, it's the same concept as people who borrow money from the Mob you know what you're getting into best to stay away from loan sharks. How much Arthur did or did not worsen his condition is unknown but at the end of the day Thomas Downes is responsible for that entire exchange.

[@Ernesto-ir8ds]

yea well strauss is a pretty accurate depiction of "the chosen people"... always plotting, but cowardly in nature...

[@stormichow5325]

As a person? Definitely not. Yes, what Strauss was doing was wrong 100%, but at least he was loyal to the gang. Micah was there only to help himself, and all he did was cause trouble. Strauss at the very least expressed concern for others, even Arthur himself. Plus, Strauss didn't tell the Pinkertons anything that he knew, and he was tortured to death. This happens even if Arthur throws Strauss out of the camp, showing that he held no disdain for them even after they removed him.

[@Ernesto-ir8ds]

@@stormichow5325 strauss was loyal only because it benefited him, if he could make more somewhere else, he would betray the gang in a heartbeat... such is the nature of his kind...

[@aurairl6406]

@@Ernesto-ir8dsthey literally say in the epilogue how Strauss was picked up by the Pinkertons and died in the custody, never saying a word about the gang.

[@chrislince5720]

The way I look at it, that mf Thomas Downes killed Arthur Morgan!

[@hopelesswolfkin5353]

Aggravated assault which in turn aggravated Downes tuberculosis, tuberculosis itself has progression almost exclusively tapered by immune system strength when taken into account alongside how ideal the current environment is for tuberculosis replication. Healing is one of the more taxing immune system processes lengthy and resources intensive already being compromised, even if not from the beating itself this beating especially from a low honor Arthur would be very difficult on his body that was already fighting tuberculosis.

[@babaduk7679]

Thank you very much for your video, this is for the people that keep saying, don't ask for money if you can't pay it back, it's easy to say this when you are not in the shoes of the person who is asking, like how Thomas was and Strauss knew that and still exploited that, god forbid that anyone ends up in a situation like that, also I thought that Dutch's group was all about helping those that are shunned and disadvantaged, I guess that's a another lie by Dutch, I am happy that we get a choice to at least help out Thomas's family later, so that his kid doesn't have to suffer in the mines with that crappy foreman and his douchebags, and that his wife doesn't have to sell her body to those assholes, Arthur definitely made a mistake for attacking Thomas in the beginning and yeah he paid for that mistake, as for Strauss, well what can I say about him, he always did like wearing his fancy clothes, while a lot of other people couldn't get their daily bread, atleast he wasn't a rat, and didn't squeal to the Pinkertons

[@joenesvick7043]

"Well Thomas Downes did borrow money he couldn't repay, so who's really at fault 🤔, now one could also say Tom killed Arthur" lol 🤪

[@raze5783]

Thomas Downes would’ve died from TB regardless, which would’ve resulted in Mrs. Downes and their son living in poverty anyways. It was inevitable.

[@Phantom-iv7lb]

I think what makes Arthurs moments in Annesburg with the Downes family even more tear jerking is that when Arthur gets to Archie at the mine and Archie proclaims that Arthur killed his dad, Arthur just stays in silent agreement which turns into a subtle admition of guilt when faced with the foreman he just says he's gonna kill him too as if he's agreeing to Archies prior comment.