D&D 5e has too many rules.

Greetings mortals. In this video, I go into
depth on Cairn, an indie RPG by Yochai Gal that’s only 20 pages long. I’ve only read it once and I’ve never played it, so I’m sure that I misrepresented some small things. But this game got me excited and I wanted to share my thoughts on it.
Follow @TabletopSandbox on Twitter to keep up with videos and other projects I’m working on.
Get Cairn: cairnrpg.com
Twitter: / tabletopsandbox
#ttrpg #dnd5e #dm

[@KevinKausch]

But my bookshelf needs to be full of $60 books that I’ve never opened…

[@tabletopsandbox]

A common sentiment, but have you ever stopped to ask yourself: why?

[@wingedhussar2909]

​​@@tabletopsandbox because our friends only want to play what's popular and in their comfort zone.

[@tabletopsandbox]

@@wingedhussar2909 I feel that, it's difficult being the new game evangelist. The only reason I've been able to get my friends to try so many games is because I'm enthusiastic and a forever GM. Cairn might be a good place to start because it's so short and approachable

[@rdmsh]

Are you me?

[@kiryls1207]

@@wingedhussar2909 you can always sneak into one of those tomes the 20 pages of cairn

[@FreyaVonBerg]

There's only one little error in your video, that I'd like to point out. If you read carefully the scars table you will notice that you do not roll d12 to determine the type of scar. The total dmg recieved in that hit equals the type of scar but otherwise very good summary

[@janet.snakehole]

scars are very unclear in Cairn imo

[@numbskull9481]

Funny thing is, you don't even need to buy the books, you find anything you need or want to know in D&D by just looking it up online. Even explained a little easier to digest sometimes. Would totally buy Cairn though, I've always wanted to take the D&D idea and break it down into something that's a lot easier to play and understand, this might be just what im looking for.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Sure, it's not necessarily a matter of monetary cost, rather investment cost. Especially for the GM running the game, they need to sink a lot of hours into those books/online SRDs to garner a working understanding of how to run the game. The pdf of Cairn is pay-what-you-want too. Link is in the description!

[@tylerurian]

Fun fact -- cairn is completely free 👀

[@groofay]

I've seen a few videos on Cairn lately, this is maybe the most interesting presentation of it yet. Positioning it as an imaginative, collaborative act of storytelling, with rulings before rules, is a beautiful thing to me, and I'm looking forward to getting a few friends together to play it.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Thanks for the kind words! Happy gaming!

[@kyleharder3654]

Good video. Just got Cairn a few weeks ago and it was refreshing to read. Goes to show how little you NEED to have fun!

[@tabletopsandbox]

The real TTRPG was inside you all along

[@ken.droid-the-unique]

Thanks for the intro to Cairn. I'm looking to punish Hasbro for their audacious bad behavior and find a new TTRPG. Looks like Cairn is getting a turn in my "alternative to D&D" carousel.

[@tabletopsandbox]

I will always support people branching out and trying new games, especially indie RPGs like Cairn!

[@Red_Tuxedo]

Fully agree. When I first ran games with the same core system as Cairn (Into the Odd and Electric Bastionland), I was struck by how liberating the experience was, for both GM and players. We got so much done in each session, and the players were more creative. It also teaches good GMing practices, like never calling for a roll unless you have a negative consequence for failure in mind. Looking forward to using Cairn with one of my groups in the near future.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Yeah, shifting to the practice of rolling less with more meaning while running Cairn has been an eye opening experience for me. Also the quick and simple character creation makes it so even first timers can have an adventure their very first session

[@guano524]

I will point out an error you made around taking damage to Strength. When damage cuts into your strength, you don't immediately fall down and out of the fight. You need to make a Strength Save before that happens (every time you take Strength damage), and if you make the save, you can keep on fighting. It makes the damage system more realistic by making it harder and harder to stay in a fight while you are wounded. Failing the Strength Save should be referred to as Critical Damage in the rulebook. Other than that, good video!

[@tabletopsandbox]

You are correct, and this has been remedied in my games. Yeah it's a death spiral type mechanic, but in my experience not one that makes the game less fun. The limited hp makes people very careful and thus clever when trying to avoid harm

[@spacelem]

@@tabletopsandbox nothing wrong with a well-implemented death spiral mechanic, they can help to make fights more decisive. This one only bolts on to the end after HP have been used, so it's kind of a hybrid. The fact that Hit Protection recovers so quickly can often keep careful PCs going well after their D&D level 1 equivalents would have needed to stop and rest.

[@drunkendelver1966]

I kept seeing Cairn online and thought it was just another retro D&D clone like White Box or Basic Fantasy. After this explanation, holy crap, I just might have a look at this. Quick character generation, only three stats, taking battle scars to level up, and a good amount of random tables and easily explained spells open to interpretation? That's some great stuff right there. I am absolutely loving the discovery of all these independent games after falling out with 5e. :)

[@tabletopsandbox]

Glad I could help you along that path, there's a whole world of amazing games out here

[@FHangya]

I love your content. Great voice, very easy to keep listening

[@nicka3697]

Cairn sounds like a good game. I got EZd6 which is a similar system. The freedom you get there in spell casting is really great. A character can cast fire spells if they want to hurt one opponent it's easy to make the roll if you want to do more damage or hit more opponents or last longer it's harder. But how you describe the spells effect is up to you a Fireball a wall of flames a sheet of fire or an illusionary fire that only they can see and feel its up to you but the mechanics just say how much damage to roll. Weapons are reliable magic is a gamble - I like that. Cairn sounds like it comes from a similar place get rid of all the rules you don't need, reward creativity and get out of the way so everyone can keep it fast and furious.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Hey Nick! Yeah I've heard good things about EZd6, it's definitely on my list of games to try. Cairn is super bare bones, and after playing my first session I can say it definitely keeps the game moving

[@Alvarhythm]

Great vid, you have a really nice flow!

[@tabletopsandbox]

Thank you! Big props to my editor

[@gearboxmerc1291]

This sounds good. After 20 years, Ive gotten fed up with DnD and WotC. Ill check out Cairn.

[@tabletopsandbox]

There's a lot of great TTRPGs out there but Cairn is a great one to pick because it's so simple and has an entirely different feel to modern D&D

[@afreestate8466]

Thanks! I've been looking for different games to run and could start quickly. Definitely going to try this out

[@tabletopsandbox]

Glad I could help!

[@anaisbir]

Thank you, this was an amazing and in-depth break down of Cairn. I personally love the multitude of options that a game such as Cairn offers, and others of the same vein such as Into the Odd, Mausritter and Knave to name a few. Having simple rules does not limit the game, but allows instead for much more creativity and immersive roleplay as well as open ended story lines. Excellent review and content! Also, you have really great audio, my compliments to the quality of your videos. Shadowdark is a game that offers some of the flexibility and simplicity of "old school' games yet provides some of the detail and crunch of 5E Dungeons and Dragons for those who find NSR, New School Renaissance, games too simple, I would also recommend it as worth a look. The Quickstart guides for the Player and Game Master are free to download as PDFs. I also enjoy a game called Quest, as it is simple enough and yet more focused on Narrative storytelling over crunch, great for beginners.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Thanks for the praise and all the great recommendations Anais! I've heard good things about all of those games, especially Shadowdark. They're definitely on my list of games to check out!

[@asraiSOA]

Great video. Been meaning to try this game.

[@SoloBattles]

As a wargame vlogger, I appreciate your simple, yet skilled, video style. Having played ttrpgs for over 40 years. I really like simple systems. It's obviously much harder to create a light framework that yields an authentic experience. Any fool can add a rule.

[@tabletopsandbox]

I'm surprised to hear that compliment from a wargamer, but it is very appreciated! Glad you liked the video!

[@SoloBattles]

@Tabletop Sandbox I appreciate how difficult it is to do an info dump on screen and not become tedious. It's not the big things, it's the little edits that folks don't notice that make all the difference. You're welcome.

[@matthewmcguigan4293]

Thanks for posting this video. I haven't heard of Cairn (until now), but I'm a huge fan of Deathbringer. I'm admittedly not a fan of gigantic rule books (although they do look cool), and even less a fan of people needing to read them during a gaming session, and even less of a fan of players who feel the need to min/max based on said gigantic rule book.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Plenty of people are very happy to play the kind of game 5e and other rule-heavy systems and I support that fully. I still very much enjoy playing 5e regularly, but for those who want to let the narrative or personal creativity of the players take the spotlight I'm excited to bring new, rules-light games to their attention

[@russellgardner5485]

I'll wait" lol, your ending cracjed me up. Thanka for the awesome video

[@Mrmogh]

Whoa, your channel is fantastic!

[@tabletopsandbox]

Glad you think so!

[@Sanguivore]

Fantastic and well-spoken overview of Cairn! :D So glad I picked this system (and it’s Bestiary) up recently! You deserve heaps more subs, my friend~!

[@tabletopsandbox]

Many thanks for your kind words!

[@thelaughingstorm6488]

Found a new channel to sub to, keep up the good work

[@tabletopsandbox]

I appreciate you!

[@vidgrip8622]

Great video. Cairn 2nd edition is currently in Kickstarter

[@markkreitler519]

Picked up Cairn a couple of weeks ago and am loving the rules so far. Excited to run a game. Also want to shout out to Index Card RPG, which is the system I'm currently using. Core rules there are also about 20 pages. Both systems encourage creativity and allow for short turn length (meaning you can get more done in a session). ICRPG is perhaps more familiar to D20 players, but Cairn's unique mechanics (like the HP and armor systems) make for an interesting and fun alternative.

[@tabletopsandbox]

I own a copy of ICRPG, but have yet to read through it. I've heard all sorts of good things about it

[@markkreitler519]

@@tabletopsandbox Most of it is sourcebook stuff for the 5 included worlds. To get the gist of the game, you only need to read through about page 20 of the Master Edition. Hope you'll do a vid on it once if you find the time to check it out.

[@pruter1234]

This video was great, Wish you had more introduction videos to other ttrpgs, keep the good work

[@tabletopsandbox]

Thanks for the feedback, I definitely have a few more TTRPGs I'd like to do videos on

[@jimjones7980]

Great video. I love Cairn. There are a couple of rules clarifications that I would present: * At the start of combat (not each round), each PC must make a DEX save in order to go before their opponents in Round 1. All those PCs that pass the DEX save act in whatever order they wish among themselves and the results of their actions are simultaneous. Then the opponents go in whatever order the Warden wants; all results from those actions being simultaneous. Those that did not pass the DEX save do not go in round 1. In round 2, all the PCs go (even those that failed the DEX save in the first round) in whatever order they choose; results being simultaneous. Then, in round 2, all the opponents go in the order that the Warden choose with the results being simultaneous. Then it continues like round 2 until the combat is over. * This is clarified in the Cairn FAQ on the Cairn RPG site. * The scars table is not rolled on. Instead, If an amount of damage reduces a PC to exactly 0 HP, then lookup what that damage was on the table and apply the result. So, if my PC has 3 HP and took exactly 3 points of damage, that would reduce their HP to exactly zero. At which point, I'd look at the scars table and apply the result for the entry for 3 (the amount of damage that reduced my character to 0 HP). * This is clarified in multiple places, but it is more explicitly stated in the Cairn 2e playtest rules.

[@gmdnik]

Great job highlighting that game. It's on my soon-to-play list along with its spiritual father Into the Odd. 5e has too many rules. I started a gaming club at my school and i found out that especially my younger students (like 10 or 11 years) play more in an OSR/indie play style. Itcomes much more natutral to them to use their imagination instead of their character sheet. The crunch oriented playstyle of d&d has to be trained i to a new player, at the cost of a truely liberating gaming experience. I might try starting next years club with cairn istead (or the black hack, or ose or ezyd6...thefe are so many good games out there!)

[@tabletopsandbox]

Yeah I find it's much more intuitive for new players to actually roleplay than to learn the rules of a crunchy new system, and the rules-light OSR games make that easy by encouraging that style of play

[@Memecraftverse]

Thanks I always wanted to play dnd but I could never understand it this would help

[@Kainoka]

Already signing a petition to take down big bird from sesame street, how could they try to be the bigger bird 😡

[@tabletopsandbox]

I appreciate your support in this endeavor

[@mattieglover2356]

I picked up Cairn not long ago and i'm very into it. I'm new to OSR games so i actually had started to make a standard plot-point adventure for a potential session. After watching this video i totally scrapped it (except for some creatures i'd made) in favor of a more action-reaction type of gameplay. Thanks for the video!

[@tabletopsandbox]

Glad to help! Hope you enjoy the new style of gameplay. I'd suggest looking up some videos on a point crawl style of adventure prep

[@TheGamingWard]

As the resident "other system" guy in my DnD group, Cairn was the first different system I picked up and I absolutely loved it.

[@tabletopsandbox]

It's got great bones and it's super approachable for new players or people who don't want to spend too much time learning a complex new system

[@f.a.santiago1053]

Bruh... Cairn is freekin AWESOME! Can't wait for the Cain 2e box to arrive at my door.

[@MemphiStig]

TWERPS (The World's Easiest RP System) was my first intro bitd to the idea that D&D was way too complicated. (You had ONE stat, and the rules were a mini-book about 10-15 pages long. It might have a been a bit too rules lite, tho.) The thing is I never played D&D as much as I would have liked, and the primary reason was always that we spent too much time creating characters and preparing, then we ran out of time and never finished anything. The new emphasis on simpler rpg's is a blessing to those of us who just want to play. No matter how much I loved having dozens of rule books and supplements from multiple games I'll never play or even incorporate into other games. As the man said, The PLAY's the thing.

[@tabletopsandbox]

I do love digging into rulebooks and lore and understanding every complicated mechanic of a system, but that's something most people don't have time for. Definitely agree that rules-light games are a blessing to jump right in and play without needing a bachelor's degree in the rules

[@Chance.Dillon]

I love the idea of these ruleslight games, knave, ezd6, cairn. I think it’s a very niche market that said. I think the “rules” are important for setting up characters and mechanics for the most part, but I agree a ruling in that setting is more fun than just following the rules. I think something between the two can create an ultimate experience.

[@Chance.Dillon]

The first eleven minutes are generic rules that I just think all gm’s in all ttrpg’s need to follow no matter how many rules exist in those games

[@tabletopsandbox]

Yeah it starts off as less rules and more "best practices" to use when running this sort of game. I'm a big fan of playing a bunch of different games, or having a few different games that you play based on the feel of game you want

[@Retrofun69]

Wow a roleplaying game about roleplaying and with a DM that enforces atmosphere and says NO? Sign me the fuck up.

[@zaqsiefert5508]

Carin sounds fun! I'd give it a shot

[@tabletopsandbox]

I'm running my first game for a group this evening!

[@Jay-ql4gp]

D&D has always had too many rules. This has only increased with each iteration. As I've always said, there is a rule for everything and ....everything has a rule. In the first edition DM's guide, there were even tables on what kind of city dweller you'd encounter in town. And your (circumstance dependant) chances for contracting diseases. In truth, D&D gave rise to video games, and now video games are the guiding light that 4th and 5th edition was made from.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Indeed, Cairn and the OSR function under the assumption that the referee/GM can make rulings about those specifics in the moment when they come up, rather than memorizing the rules or having to look them up. Though I'm a big fan of random tables

[@luxiscarbonus]

Great review! Thanks! Just one question, if anyone can awnser: what happens when you get more fatigue points than inventory slots? Do you have to drop an item? Thanks...

[@tabletopsandbox]

According to the rules if a PC has all 10 inventory slots filled they have 0 hp. They must drop something or rest and lose the fatigue to get their hp back. I would allow a PC to carry more than their inventory allows for a short time, but they'd still be at 0 hp. I also wouldn't let them travel for any meaningful distance overencumbered. What a PC can lift for that brief period of time I'd rule on a case by case basis

[@tabletopsandbox]

But yeah basically I'd make them choose another thing to drop if they got another fatigue

[@luxiscarbonus]

@@tabletopsandbox thanks! I'm going to run this with some students in my school library. I bet they're going to love it.

[@tabletopsandbox]

@@luxiscarbonus happy gaming and best of luck!

[@MrToastOmnomnom]

I'm sold

[@justthecraft]

Trying this out next week!

[@tabletopsandbox]

Glad I could bring it to your attention!

[@justthecraft]

@@tabletopsandbox ill let you know how it goes!

[@tabletopsandbox]

Please do!

[@gorywriter326]

Given everything WotC's been doing lately with DnD, I've been looking for other TTRPGs to learn/play/study, and Cairn got my interest for the possibility of solo play with either the Mythic GME or CRGE. Ironsworn may be my current go-to game (for similar solo play reasoning), but I'll be reading through this one's PDF as well. Could be interesting to go on an adventure or two in this game.

[@tabletopsandbox]

I've had great success with a few sessions of solo Cairn augmented with the Mythic GME, Perilous Wilds, and my own interpretation of the hexcrawling rules on the Cairn website

[@peachypet808]

Ohhhhh, especially the one-sentence-spells are the stuff I could make hell for my DM. I am great at arguing semantics! But then again, I am a forever DM and love it when players argue semantics. I will 100% try this system out the next time my players have time. It sounds awesoms!

[@josephwilliams9208]

Booked marked cairn just now. It sounds like a much better rpg than dnd. I don't like needing to be a rules lawyer before I can even play the game. 95% of the players will quit dnd, because it's overcomplicated, and requires a lot of knowledge to be able to run. Not just that, but it could cost players $400 to buy 1-5 e rulebooks, without having to also get into also buying premade game scrips, free or otherwise. In dnd if you want to organize what the status effects or player spells even do, without needing to remember everything, you only have 2 good options. You could play a dnd vtt game, or you could spend another 400 dollars on (deck of animated spellcards.) Dnd would be making a fortune right now if it could create a way to simplify its game, without needing 3rd party help.

[@tabletopsandbox]

I'd also say it's a barrier to players taking the step to become DMs (which obviously I'm a huge proponent of). Too many rules or a monetary barrier can be a big turn off for new players or seasoned ones thinking about running the game

[@willcool713]

I'm working on integrating the old Fantasy Trip magic rules for Wizards from Steve Jackson. They use pretty much the same stats and the mechanics don't clash. You have to adapt to a hex grid, but that's no biggie.

[@Sanguivore]

The Fantasy Trip is so heavily slept-on. Always happy to see it mentioned! :D

[@willcool713]

@@Sanguivore You can see the influence in GURPS, but The Fantasy Trip is as old school and as barebones as it gets. It's very primitive and thin on rules, born from arena combat. It plays best, imo, with older model fantasy, preTolkein sensibilities, like from Conan or Tarzan or any of that era's fantasy. Hard to get a hold of older Steve Jackson games now, but Cairn is very similar in structure.

[@Sanguivore]

@@willcool713 Yeah, the more I look into Cairn, the more I can see some of the influence from Steve Jackson’s design philosophy. Which I think is great! And pre-Tolkien/sword & sorcery is definitely my go-to style for fantasy, so The Fantasy Trip and its combat style is definitely perfect for me!

[@willcool713]

@@Sanguivore Ultimately, I would love a scalable system that can shift from lightweight for most situations to complex and detailed for when more realism is needed or would help. I think that's where the whole RPG world is headed, but there needs to be a shift in approach that we can't see yet, I think. I would love to integrate Cairn and Whitebox with Fate and D20, and then also top-level specificity like D&D and Traveller. All that together would be so clunky and unusable that it sounds like a pipe dream, but we all homebrew stuff like that all the time. A good rulebook for homebrew rules and how to make them might be the thing, but starting from scratch every campaign can be difficult, too. Idk. I have a dream, though. Fortunately I love to imagine various game mechanics systems almost as much as I enjoy playing them. A good system creates a world real enough that you don't need to believe in it. A variable scale system would be super playable, in my dreams anyway.

[@SuscriptorJusticiero]

An OSR game I play, _Tesoro y Gloria,_ has a somewhat similar approach to task resolution, although a bit crunchier (not actually _crunchY,_ but it's still _crunchIER_ than Cairn because that bar's so low it's a tripping hazard in Hell). When the GM decides that resolving an action deserves mechanical uncertainty, there are basically two levels of difficulty: for a _Simple Task_ you make a roll for the appropriate attribute (like Cairn you roll 1d20 under your stat) unless you are _proficient_ with what you are doing, in which case you succeed automatically; for a _Difficult Task_ you need to be proficient in order to do it in the first place, again with a roll. And then there are a few ways to be a "master" at something, which is like being proficient but more: you succeed at Difficult Tasks automatically (without a roll), and you can attempt to do things that are borderline unpossible for anyone else. (For example the Dog class* improves by one grade your proficiency to detect or search things by smell, and the Ranger improves proficiency for a few tasks in their Favoured Terrain). * And yes, the Dog is literally a dog. I have played a huge Grand Dane good boy as dumb as a sack of bricks, and it was a blast.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Honestly the fact that you can play a literal dog is enough to get me to check this game out, and the mechanics definitely sound interesting too

[@RhymesWithCrazy]

@@SuscriptorJusticiero@tabletopsandbox puedo ayudar! o también google translate

[@jayf6206]

I've decided upon Cairn as the rulekit for my next campaign. It forces players to utilize the fourth pillar of ttrpgs: shenanigans.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Strange, I've never had a problem with the players not embracing enough shenanigans, usually it's the opposite. But I suppose shenanigans according to the RAW is what you want to steer them toward

[@PeteLankston]

Please play Orson Welles soon. That's not an RPG, you should just play him. Wonderful.

[@ThomasGiles]

1 minute in… This guy’s voice is intense!

[@Retrofun69]

Cairn and other simpler TTRPGs are the way to go.

[@leandroschenone7253]

Hi! First timer here .. I want to know if you can give some recommendations about Pen & Paper adventure games for a group of neewies. Regards!!

[@tabletopsandbox]

Welcome to the channel! For a new group I could recommend Dungeon World or Blades in the Dark, and I would definitely say it's worth it to read through Cairn, even if you decide not to play it. The first two games do a good job of explaining how to play in addition to the hard rules, but I would definitely supplement reading the books by watching/listening to some actual play to get a feel for the flow of the game

[@leandroschenone7253]

@@tabletopsandbox Thanks soo much for the info! i was searching about BitD already, but we discart it because need to pay (in our country is almost imposible adquire external content). DW in the other hand.... WOW! a lot of variation, and some very simplified! Excelent oportunity for my group (i already play a lot of RPG, but for them is the first time). Thanks again. Regards!!

[@tabletopsandbox]

Glad I could help, happy gaming!

[@shenysys]

Have you ever played the Australian game - Hunter Planet ?

[@tabletopsandbox]

I haven't, is it similar to Cairn?

[@shenysys]

@@tabletopsandbox Not sure as I have not played Cairn. i no longer have access to the Hunter Planet rules. Also been awhile ages since I last looked at them. Hunter Planet turns up on ebay from time to time but mostly from America and the postage to Australia is a killer.

[@josephkrausz9557]

Like many people, I use Cairn to run a lot of old-school D&D modules. You could probably run 5e modules, should you care to, as well, with some fixing.

[@tesreso5448]

I dm, i barely look at the big books, ans if anyone wants to bitch i just go 'whose the dm?' The only rule that matters in dnd is the one on the first page, saying 'all rules are optional' and thus, if i dont want to, fuck it~ My house rule is 'sounds cool, roll for it' i encourage creativity, i dont care about lawyering~ these lite rules just sounds like that~

[@thealoisa3322]

tell that to PF2E

[@freethrall]

Cairn is awesome. It's one of many great hacks of my favourite game, Into The Odd.

[@tabletopsandbox]

I've heard all sorts of good things about ItO, I'll get it eventually

[@freethrall]

​@@tabletopsandbox There is a free version of Electric Bastionland by the creator of Into The Odd. The rules are practically identical with a slight shift in setting from industrial horror to weird science.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Thanks for the info!

[@ianwilbanks3015]

I really liked this video, but I must say that I don't really agree with the conclusion. Like many light weight games Cairn seems to put too much work on the DM, and to some extent the players. I agree that playing rules as written D&D 5e requires can stifle creativity, but I have never met a person that plays like that. As a DM I much prefer being given a precise framework to mold to my preference than a set of guide lines that make me decide everything.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Very valid criticism. I definitely do a lot of prep and supplement the rulebook with other resources when I run Cairn, but as a basic framework I really enjoy the simplicity of it. It makes it so there's virtually no time looking through the rulebook, not because I'm making a ruling in spite of the rules, but rather because I already know all of them. It also sets the expectation of ultimate GM authority for the players, rather than encouraging rules-lawyering with a GM who doesn't know all the many rules of a more complex system

[@OlderSnake]

My opinion and experience of rules-light systems is that it occupies a theoretical space, where the lack of rules allows you to have more unique characters. Perhaps you have no skills in the system. You define in your background that you're a fisherman, so you know how to do fisherman things. Cool, simple. But they tend to do nothing else. I played Numenera, and I wanted to be a tough warrior and took the things my DM recommended me to do that, and I almost died climbing down a ladder. Not even a very tall ladder. I'll be the first to admit dnd does definitely not hit the sweet-spot for great roleplaying, but going rules-light doesn't either. You lose all the tools you need to flesh out a character. The two best systems I find in this respect are the Storyteller system (Vampire the Masquerade and the other systems inhabiting that space) and Cyberpunk. They have one thing in common that really fleshes out a character: loads and loads of skills. You could argue that you can do this just as well in rules-light, as you just declare yourself to have these skills, but most people don't have that in-depth idea of their character. You may not need to always be in depth, but when you play long campaigns, that is what you want when you do deep dives with your friends. One of the bets bits of roleplaying advice I found was from the GreatGM channel here on youtube. The video had a list of 6 questions you should always answer in your background (where you are from, your family, why you left, etc.), and having these concrete things to just mull over changes everything. That is what rules-light lacks and DnD glosses over (for better combat, dnd has its advantages).

[@yochaigal]

Nice, excellent job pronouncing my name!

[@tabletopsandbox]

Thanks! I spent hours practicing

[@yochaigal]

@@tabletopsandbox Other games you may be interested in checking out: Knave Liminal Horror Into The Odd Maze Rats Tunnel Goons Troika! Mausritter

[@tabletopsandbox]

Thanks for the suggestions! They'll definitely go on the list

[@phoxpharms]

Everything you describe about freedom of choice is already freedom of choice in D&D, it all comes down to how good your DM is. I do not own a single D&D 5e manual, it takes 2 seconds to google anything you need to know free of cost. That said, Cairn still sounds pretty interesting and worthy of being in the repitore of games. Sounds like D&D fastplay. Learn that in a single round of play, enjoy it, maybe use it as a stepping stone to D&D or played instead of.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Sure you can do whatever you want if your GM is flexible enough, but I disagree in that 5e's rules do not enable or encourage that creativity. Spells do one specific thing according to RAW, and if your GM won't let you break the rules to do something else with it I wouldn't say that makes them a bad GM, just a more rule-focused one. Extensive class features and predefined abilities also encourage players to look for solutions within the rules of the game rather than relying on their personal ingenuity and critical thinking

[@phoxpharms]

@@tabletopsandbox I would agree with you if not for the fact that the rules also say it is always up to the DM, the rules are guidelines to work with, not adhere to. There is no difference in D&D and Cairn in that regard other then Cairn seems less built and thus has looser and more open ended options. But if we look at all the D&D groups that everyone loves watching, they all bend the rules and understand that the point of D&D is to encourage creativity. It is the difference in players and DM that make or break it. A sword is always a sword unless it is a shield. It depends on who weilds it as to which it can be. Just as players who think outside the box of murder hobo-ing that D&D provides a plethora of options if only the players looks for them and the DM goes for it. Anything is possible if the dice say so.

[@NiallMor]

The high page count is what turned me off to D&D 40 (!) years ago when I was in college and an acquaintance tried to get me into D&D.

[@tabletopsandbox]

It can be a hard sell for someone who isn't looking for a time sucking hobby

[@sweatyeti]

I think I'd really enjoy Cairn, however I anticipate the players in one of my D&D groups would hate it. Some people really like D&D 5e *because* the rules are so specific, as it doesn't require creativity or out-of-the-box thinking -- it's easier for them because they'll either memorize the rules or look them up when a situation that arises, and don't have to put in effort working together to come up with a ruling on the spot. Personally, I'm annoyed when players and DM's will defer to the exact wording of a rule in D&D 5e even when makes little to no sense narratively. So, thank you for introducing me to Cairn.

[@tabletopsandbox]

I'm in the same boat, recently I've grown really tired of how limiting of creativity 5e's all-encompassing ruleset is. Sure it gives a shared foothold for everyone, but that shouldn't be a replacement for trust and good natured creativity. The OSR asks not "What do the rules say?" But rather "What makes sense?"

[@briankelly1240]

I mean...you can always call back to campfire story style. No rules besides tell a fun story. S'mores optional.

[@tabletopsandbox]

True, always a valid option, but I find a (minimal) structure inspires creativity far better than a blank slate

[@PlanetOfTheApes999]

"The simpler, the better" might be true for some things, but not for gaming. While games can be too complex (World of Synnibarr immediately comes to mind), but they can also be too simple, like the game you mentioned in this video. You can't have a 20-page TTPRG with a well-developed world and enough options to make it worth playing again and again.

[@tabletopsandbox]

You're correct in that Cairn doesn't attempt to develop a world, it's simply a core set of rules. The world must be developed by a game master's homebrew or supplemented by prepared adventures, but that's the same with D&D. As for options, I suppose if you draw your enjoyment from min/maxing a character based on a robust set of options Cairn would be lacking, but such is not the way of the OSR.

[@PlanetOfTheApes999]

@@tabletopsandbox Min-maxing isn't necessary to have a good time, but if you don't have a lot of options, the game's replay value definitely suffers.

[@finger3181]

The options are limited to your groups imagination, rather than having a fixed set of options written in the book. There's none of 'you can't do that, as it's not in the rules', to limit players. It's a different mindset required to run and play this game, which can be far more creative. The more rules, the more players look to the rules and their character sheet for options. The less options there are written down, the greater the chance of creative thinking.

[@0ptikGhost]

Simplicity and options are not exclusive. Also, the OSR doesn't equate simplicity. Basic D&D was simpler than AD&D but the attitude and philosophy behind these rules sets (from the late 70s and early 80s) define a lot of the OSR that players and game masters are looking for now. I'd recommend focusing on the philosophy and attitude rather than the rules. First and foremost, a game master describes a situation and asks what the characters want to do. If players feel they must look at their character record to decide then the amount of rules doesn't really matter. Those players will still be equally restricted no matter how many rules they are using.

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

@@PlanetOfTheApes999 Many people don’t find fun in mechanical character options and instead find fun in interacting organically with a world. If you enjoy character builds, rules light systems won’t be for you and that’s fine! But for many people it’s the challenges and the world that provides variety, not game mechanics. (Not that it has to be binary)

[@Runehammer1]

came for the Cairn, sub'd for the hair

[@tabletopsandbox]

A high compliment from a man of exquisite taste such as yourself. Thank you sir

[@richardextall2002]

Play OSR, original 1st or 2nd Edition D&D.

[@Ornithopter470]

Having played and run DnD, 95% of the rules aren't needed for any given character. It's a reference document, not a novel. If you approach it like a novel, it's garbage. If you look at it as a reference manual, where you look up the things you need during character creation, and then take time between sessions to do in between session things, that tends to make a difference.

[@chaosgyro]

Everytime I feel like a game of D&D I just play Neverwinter Nights or Baldur's Gate instead. There's nothing that the modern, "campaign" driven, strategy game known as Dungeons and Dragons can do that isn't more easily handled by a computer.

[@tabletopsandbox]

I mean, if all you're interested in is RAW combat then this could be a correct statement, but I think you're forgetting the whole RPG component of a TTRPG, plus all the sandboxing and improvising that can be done that wouldn't be supported by something preprogrammed

[@kid14346]

"This game is classless and level-less." *runs to the download page so fast*

[@tabletopsandbox]

It's a breath of fresh air, and it puts the impetus on the players much more than their characters' abilities, which I like

[@kid14346]

@@tabletopsandbox I have been hunting for classless games for like 3 years and too many think that classes are inherent to the TTRPG space. Obviously I could make one, but between hobbies, charities, raising a kid, and working a full time job... it really would take too much time.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Glad I could point you in the right direction. I'd also recommend Knave, which in part inspired Cairn, and there's a second edition of which going to Kickstarter soon

[@kid14346]

@@tabletopsandbox Of course there is a kickstarter... *stares at shriveled and starving wallet*

[@kyrnsword72]

I got Cairn and it looked nice. I found the ttrpg I ❤ called D100 Dungeon! D100 Dungeon is not as complicated as D&D 3.5 or 5e but still uses these 3 great books: *Books of D100 Dungeon 1)A Solo Adventuring Game (must have) like GM's guide 2)The Lost Tome Extraordinary like Players handbook 3)The Dragons Return like Monster manuel.

[@tabletopsandbox]

I've heard this recommended for solo roleplaying, it's definitely on my list to check out!

[@edgelord0923]

but harrison, part of the fun of dnd is the mental superiority you have because you know how to play the game

[@tabletopsandbox]

You know, I really can't argue with that

[@dm4life579]

Remember the days when "DnD 5e is a simple game!"? What a load bullcrap they fed us.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Nowhere close to the simplest game to be certain, though there are games that are far more complex and crunchy

[@17joren]

Geez with all the hyperbole you’re hitting 5e with, I’d think you would find PF2e an easier target on book size and rules bloat. With 5e, the rules are already simplified and accessible compared to old editions, you don’t need the monster manual, you don’t need the DMG, and not everyone plays it a particular way. But I am still getting Cairn :) I’ve been a big Mork Borg fanboy lately!

[@shadedreaver]

scars arrent a roll though, its a weird interaction at a glance if you have 5hp and you take 5 damage your at exactly 0 and you take the 5th result if you have 3 hp and take 3 damage , you take the 3rd result, its not a role.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Correct, I think it might be because the higher number scars are more serious?

[@shadedreaver]

@@tabletopsandbox yes , in essence getting a scar is winning the lottery. just enough damage to get you prone but not enough to take you out

[@Sylvie_without_surname]

If anyone out there wants to try something really different, take a gander at some Belonging Outside Belonging games. They're all diceless and GMless, and make for a great departure from the wargaming roots that bog down some TTRPGs. As a bonus they tend to be very openly queer and welcoming to everybody. Some other fun and different things to try are Powered by the Apocalypse games and Forged in the Dark games. These refer to specific lineages of games with common design philosophies. And then finally things like The Quiet Year or Dialect can be great for opening new horizons of what an RPG can be. They ask you to zoom out beyond the perspective of a single character, and collaborate to tell the story of a community with your friends. If anyone wants to know more about any of these ask away and I'll fill you in, point you towards some good recommendations.

[@tracyburnham604]

if you’re relying on the game master to make rulings then the game is only as good as the talent of the game master. If the players and gm are new than the rulings can feel arbitrary and that you aren’t playing a game that objectively exists

[@Shadowizardmoney_Kai]

You must be new here

[@cabalarcana6996]

5e has too many rules? Homey, have you ever even looked at 3rd and 3.5?

[@jaimerivera2382]

When I think of games with complicated rules, I think of things like Shadowrun or GURPs or RIFTS but never 5e. 5e is the simplest D&D of the modern era (I suppose an argument could be made for 1e and 2e being simpler, which is why OSR is trying to get back to that - but it also had Thac0, which was wholly inelegant as a system).

[@tabletopsandbox]

I've read through all of the Pathfinder 1 corebooks. I know 5e isn't the most rule heavy or complicated, but just because other games have more rules doesn't mean 5e doesn't have a lot. You can't tell me that 1000 pages of core books is light reading.

[@cabalarcana6996]

@@tabletopsandbox I figured. It's difficult to convey sarcasm in text without abusing capitalization and asterisks.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Indeed, text is a hard medium to convey nuance with. I appreciate the discourse!

[@ZombieDish]

it's either D&D 5th edition has too many rules or it doesnt have enough rules where it counts. Make up your minds.

[@tabletopsandbox]

Why can't it be both?

[@ZombieDish]

@@tabletopsandbox makes no sense really. If you want to plug this new game just do that instead of beating a dead horse to do it.

[@tesreso5448]

This is when the DM says 'my rules!' 😂

[@StanNotSoSaint]

For a person who critisizes overabundance of information you sure spend a lot of time to explain a 20 pages system.

[@tabletopsandbox]

That's simply because I love the sound of my own voice

[@roccov3614]

OMG! That sounds terrible. It means you can't really rely on anything. If you have 5 players you might end up with 5 opinions on what would happen in a situation and no one agreeing. It's like playing a card game with no rule. Total anarchy.

[@tabletopsandbox]

There might be 5 opinions, but the Warden/GM/referee has final say on each ruling. But really even that isn't necessary if you have a group of players that trust and respect each other. Your hypothetical scenario seems to contain people who are pretty intolerable

[@rosi4510]

Very funny nonsens! In comparison to other RPGs D&D is a very slim system, especially 5e!! You don‘t need all three Books to start. Please Talk about PF2… 😉

[@tabletopsandbox]

Sure you don't need all the books to start something resembling D&D, but they are all CORE books, which means to play the game "correctly"/as intended you should be consulting all three

[@rosi4510]

@@tabletopsandbox 👍 if you‘re a DM you need the PH and MM, the DMG is optional. As a player you only need the PH.

[@tabletopsandbox]

ALL the books are optional, but all three are CORE books, core doesn't mean necessary if you don't care about following the rules as written

[@grognardgaming8952]

😂😂😂 5e is too smooth compared with previous systems. I'm sick of these rules lite systems. Look just sit around a table and play pretend like you were 7 again. Absolutely no rules needed. However I want to play a GAME, with MECHANICS. I'm totally over rules lite. I want tables and crunch!

[@shadowmancer99]

This is hilarious. 5e is the LIGHTEST rule set aside from the boxed Basic set I own from the early 80s. This is just sad, that people cant handle the bare minimum without complianing. Have you seen Shadowrun? Gurps? Get out of here...lol.

[@rosi4510]

Commercial video?

[@cobinizer]

Wow. WotC dumbed down D&D for the younger indoctrinated generation, but it has too many rules? I play 3.5 and I love it.I don't know what's wrong with these kids.