D&D Stun and Paralyze Ruin Your Game. Here's how to fix it.

Stun and Paralyze: For the DnD player who wants to play less DnD
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[@SilvrSavior]

Legit sat around doing nothing for at least half an hour because a DM made some modifications to a Candlekeep module and turn a human mage into a warlock whose patron was a mind flayer. This apparently let him use mind blast once per day but I had a -1 to int saves. Not to mention he also didn't know he was using 2 concentration spells so he was using greater invisibility and Tasha's Otherworldly Guise... needless to say I was not happy...

[@bonewizard]

Aren't you glad you set aside time for D&D to not play :D

[@HeroGamingFan]

Found you from Reddit. Couldn't agree more. "Is there a mechanic that excludes the player?" Yes, Forcecage. I'm a fan of only using it on a (powerful) NPC ally.

[@bonewizard]

Forcecage is one of those spells i look at and say, "who approved this?"

[@theuncalledfor]

Get Disintegrate and solve this problem instantly. I have an "escapist" wizard character that gets Disintegrate specifically to destroy a Forcecage or Wall of Force. Also Banishment to banish himself back to his home plane if he ever gets stuck on another plane of existence.

[@bonewizard]

@@theuncalledfor i personally don't think people should be required to play a specific class or take specific spells just so they don't miss play time.

[@theuncalledfor]

@@bonewizard Oh hey that's exactly my opinion about possession. There's only like _one_ spell that can reverse it. But yes, fair point, I actually agree.

[@lukenator115]

@@bonewizard I, as a DM, purposefully use these spells ONLY when the players have already taken the countermeasures. It makes them feel like their choices are valid, let's cool moments happen, and allows me to use the excluders to add false tension

[@uriangelimer5050]

This reminds me of when I was affected by the Confusion spell and I got to do nothing for 3 rounds. So fun watching the rest of my party be cool while I manage to roll the effect that made me do nothing or attack the nearest creature

[@bonewizard]

Ya confusion is in the same boat for me too. The result when it says they cant take action, i still allow the players to take bonus actions. Forcing a player to skip their turn is anti-fun

[@kingoftrashopinions6633]

Honestly yeah, I’ve never really liked stuns or paralyze abilities? I used Hold Person a few times before, but after like the 3rd use I realized I felt really bad for my DM whenever I used it? I was just stopping some of his enemies from having a turn, and I know I hate losing out on my turns as well as a player (had a boss fight when another one of my friends was DM’ing once where I was the only player who got stunned in a fight, but it happened twice so I had one turn in the entire combat while the rest of my friends either kicked ass or needed to focus on keeping me out of danger), so I just dropped the spell and haven’t used anything like it since

[@jackdanson2]

I'm all for limiting the use of these spells against players, players should use their skills though. The DM has a multitude of ways to deal with it. My players have learned that sprinkling in some cheese tactics is completely fine, but relying on them for every encounter is a good way to get in over their heads. I play to what the party is doing, if they're just having fun and aren't trying to min/max or cheese the system then I create easier encounters. If they want to be min/max and play it like a competitive video game then I'll crank up the difficulty.

[@zgubionywpolscemomonga4734]

Well. I was 3rd level (rolled stats) 18STR 18CON 3INT (10-11 rest) Barbarian. Got paralized for 5 turns of combat as party was getting floored by the boss (that we weren't supposed to fight yet) got released on 6th turn (2 players rolling death, 2 more below 50%) and proceeded to become MVP by throwing the spider priestess so far off the cliff she missed the webs below, and pummeling every drow in the vicinity with my cuffs. It was fun when it ended, but man, the first irl hour of combat kinda meh, having to listen to all the others struggling)

[@VimyGlide]

my mans out here broke out of paralyzed and immediately went "THY END IS NOW". king

[@demonderpz7937]

I mean, it's still antifun as a DM to have your favorite big nasty be unable to play the game. For instance, at one point there was a major plotpoint where a drow our party was acquainted with was secretly a Balor. We were level 13, there was a singular Balor in front of us. Our party consisted of a GOO Warlock, a Vengeance paladin (dmnpc of our level the dm wasn't using to max capacity so he wouldn't outshine anyone), my human battlemaster greatsword fighter, and a shadow sorcerer. Imagine my dm's surprise when our warlock casted hold monster, the balor failed the save, the sorcerer hasted the paladin, and the paladin *with guaranteed crits* as well as the greatsword fighter *with guaranteed crits on top of superiority die* instantly killed the balor in a single round. The balor got a single turn to swing on the paladin then died instantly, so the gm had the balor in it's dying breath attempt to grab the paladin to explode (as balor's do upon death), ruled the paladin failed the save, and tried to justify killing the otherwise over 80% hp paladin that was a red Dragonborn resistant to fire. The party invoked basic rules, the gm was even more annoyed because he had no clue what just happened, and the only person who was happy was the warlock. I personally had fun in that game with that fighter, but man the GM was a sight for sore eyes when that happened.

[@Elfflix]

one time a DM tried to hit me with an (effectively) permanent stun from 1 dex saving throw. I happened to roll low, and got trapped in a pocket dimension and could only be free'd if the creature that trapped me died. Thankfully the creature was rather squishy, but the DM also tried to have it fly off the battle map and just make it so I wasn't allowed to play the rest of the session. I am playing the only front-liner in the party, (other players were a druid that the DM let trade their wild shape for more spell slots, and a wizard who got their spellbook destroyed at the start of the fight,) so things could have gone really bad if that plan came to fruition. EDIT: now that I think about it the dm was probably trying to throw an impossible encounter at us, since we were fighting a level 40 sorcerer who was casting heightened spell meteor swarm twice a turn, who also had goons that were pushing players close together so that each spell would hurt more of us.

[@TheDreadWalker]

Your main points are valid, but I love sitting in jail during Monopoly.

[@bonewizard]

Love?

[@thatguyinyellow2950]

I got petrified turn 1 in a beholder fight and just sat on reddit for the entire thing

[@bonewizard]

Ya man, it sucks. Aren't you glad you set aside time to play dnd?

[@raunob]

Me: subscribing to the channel Bone Wizard: I'm not gonna tell you to subscribe Me: ):

[@bonewizard]

I don't wanna be one of those youtubers that begs for likes and smashings of the bell, ya know?

[@bigsmoke8816]

I honestly dont run into these problems a lot, my party is usually really min-maxed so all of our players have ways to counter this sort of stuff. A monk tries to stun a player? Reaction silvery barbs. A caster tries to put down a powerful control spell? Welp be ready to have 3 people counterspell em. A spell effect is debuffing our party member? Be ready for an instant dispel magic

[@metalskirmish]

Stuns holds and paralysis all are things that can happen irl, ever had the wind knocked outa yah and stayed on your feet? I say all you need is a diminishing dc to snap out of it, eg dc-1/turns since initially stunned, maybe -2 in a campaign with mostly spellcaster pc’s.

[@theuncalledfor]

It's not fun when it happens to you IRL either.

[@Sr.Pirulito]

Great video, one mistake though. In Monopoly, you want to be in prison, if you are there, it means you won't risk paying rent while the other players will.

[@bonewizard]

Ya know monopoly was originally called "the land lord's game" and it was made to not be fun. Thats real.

[@MumboJ]

In my last session, one of my players wasn't present in combat because his character was off scouting elsewhere. So I let him control the NPC that was currently in the party. The NPC immediately got Petrified, and didn't recover for the rest of the session. I felt so bad.

[@bonewizard]

Ya dont do that

[@Lordmewtwo151]

I'm not an expert, but here's an idea to keep the stun and paralysis effect as is and still have fun with it. How about a Constitution check to overcome it, maybe even a two-tiered Con. check? a) If the easier Con check is passed, stun/paralysis becomes what you homebrewed in this video. b) If the harder Con check is passed, the effect is completely ignored that turn.

[@TwinSteel]

Where’d you go - like *NSYNC said, “I want you back”

[@bonewizard]

How to buff Barbarian is in the works! Over 300 individual drawings and its gunna be over 30 minutes long! My actual job has been busy, and I recently went away for a week to see an old friend. The goal is to get that video out before September ends. Your patience and appreciation warm my heart... well they would if I had any internal organs at all, but you get my sentiment.

[@TwinSteel]

@@bonewizard Your content deserves more attention - you’ll blow up once your number of videos grows large enough - best of luck - looking forward to more

[@bonewizard]

ok, I was a bit off. But a video WILL be released the afternoon of the 21st!

[@TwinSteel]

@@bonewizard 😊

[@hopefullyhopless]

Very well said.

[@bonewizard]

Thank you!

[@lukenator115]

This reminds me of the time I got banished, then the party lost and fled 4 rounds in... And I unbanished into imprisonment..

[@peterusmc20]

I agree, honestly save or suck as a concept is kinda dumb. I've never had a fight that was decided by this sort of thing be interesting. I think petrify does it well where it gives allies time to help you before it happens, forces people to consider actions not just not take actions. At least such effects should be reserved for higher spells that 1-3rd level.

[@bonewizard]

Ya, a game or sport isnt as interesting when the opposition can do nothing.

[@mochristie5419]

But it also make petrification kind of trash? Like save or suck is bad but it does make the thing legitimately dangerous over.... Not at all that

[@peterusmc20]

@@mochristie5419 really ? I've always found petrification pretty scary in 5e. One fail and you're restrained and then if you fail twice more you are a statue that can't do anything and can be smashed to pieces and you need 3 successful saves to end it. I think that's a cool way to have it rather than boom you're paralysed.

[@mochristie5419]

@@peterusmc20 I just find the three saves to be basically impossible for a high level or mid level pc to fail, even if it was two is would be ok because restrained is decent, but three turns ends up being so much of a combat that most times you have just about ended it by the time you are stone

[@mochristie5419]

I believe you can also use mending or stoneshape on them but I would need that checked tbh

[@cb2291]

That's me in the DemiLich battle🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@jemm113]

speaking of monk. I was thinking either doubling their Ki after level 5 or 6. if stunning strike is still a thing, make it 2 ki to use. everything else stays the same. not only does this mean more fury of blows, which frankly aren't too op since it uses martial arts die, it also just inherently buffs elements monk. that could use a massive rework on its own anyway. maybe a clearer table of effects to use, more variety of effects, more of them in general, maybe have some effects that are unlimited use that are simply replacing your normal attacks with small, tiny buffs to usage. perhaps even gate them to one or two elements then buff them all to hell. just a thought. if we wanna be the Avatar explicitly I think some of the abilities still need work. they're also way more MAD due to the frequency of saves so maybe Elements monk being reworked as a WIS focused build could be fortuitous.

[@SCh1m3ra]

"Monks can use a special meditation ritual to refocus their minds and bodies. PB/day you can spend 10 minutes engaged in this ritual (which uses your concentration) to gain the full benefits of a short rest." Add a deal in there for meditation reqs if that comes up for your campaign. Or make it a Ki Surge in exchange for their action so they can 'power up' dbz style. Though I agree 4E monks could stand to get a Genie-Warlock-but-Monk rework.

[@mortalitydoesstuff8965]

@@SCh1m3ra I would love more excuses to do epic screams at the table, I will absolutely take the power up action and use that, maybe as a quest reward for a monk's character arc early in the game Maybe make it either an action or bonus action but as a bonus action you get 1/4 of the ki back, scaling to half at like level 13, and the amount of ki you gain from the power up scales at different levels as well In keeping with the theme as well as giving the player a moment to shine, if they take the power up action when something thematically related to their character happens, their Ki refills completely and they gain an aura of a color they choose that gives them a bonus to intimidation checks

[@SCh1m3ra]

@@mortalitydoesstuff8965 SR benefits for an action every rest won't terribly bust the encounters I see at my table. Maybe give .5PB surges per rest if it still feels light. I don't get terribly much monk action at my table, so there's definitely some tuning to be had.

[@mortalitydoesstuff8965]

@@SCh1m3ra also the meditation ability would make monklock the best multiclass ever

[@mortalitydoesstuff8965]

@@SCh1m3ra I'm mostly a player but I do plan on running a campaign soon and I feel like I'm gonna have a similar problem to my current DM where the monks just don't show up because the game isn't fun for them. These options would make it a lot more fun and encourage more class diversity

[@baconboi4482]

Don’t forget fear, fear is stupid

[@bonewizard]

I don't think fear is that bad, i think its actually pretty well designed. It can be very debilatating but you can still do things when your pc is afraid. A barbarian can still throw javelins for example.

[@yaman9463]

add options for every class to cleanse while stunned

[@bonewizard]

Not sure how bathing would help your bought of paralysis.

[@yaman9463]

I'd say your joke is unpolished @@bonewizard

[@bonewizard]

@yaman9463 your right. I guess it's time for me to hit the showers.

[@illegalmemedealer3549]

Haha autocrit go brrrrr

[@isaackarr6576]

The monk can counter attack opportunity attacks within range (monk fixed)

[@GameHunterMaster]

As much as I agree that being stuck doing nothing sucks, Paralysis needs to feel like Paralysis. if you're paralyzed in any part of your body, you can't move at all. If you have total Paralysis in real life, you can't do anything for yourself. I vibe somewhat with the changes to Stun, but I personally think Paralyze should stay the same. Paralyzed should be THE ABSOLUTE SCARIEST CONDITION ASIDE FROM UNCONSCIOUS OR PETRIFIED.

[@bonewizard]

Why would I care about being realistic at the cost of my table not having fun?

[@qualthos1]

Yes! Yes! I completely agree and hate that Matt Mercer loves to use AOE stunning abilities with EVERY OTHER ENCOUNTER. It's a miracle he hasn't TPKed his PCs multiple times (and speaks to the competence of his group). My old DM would stun a player, then the healer would run up to fix the stun effect, you know, so his friend could actually play the game. The DM then would promptly focus fire on the healer, killing him. *Lots* of fun. Thank you for your advice and keep up the fight to make D&D fun! (^-^)/

[@jackdanson2]

What a terrible DM. The job of the DM isn't to defeat the players. I rarely to never use stuns as a DM. I do occasionally use a player being restrained as a plot device, which may result in them not having as much action during their turn. Like say some guards capture a party member, their choices as a player do get limited, but it's for a grander purpose of enticing the other players to rescue them in some way. Even then I never skip their move in combat, they can still do things while being restrained, it just limits options and pushes creativity.

[@noahbradley4146]

​@@jackdanson2 don't excuse the system, however. The DM is running what the system gave them. The true issue is the designers of the system making stuff like this in it. GMs running enemies as smart is fine. Most of the blame should be on the people paid tens of thousands of dollars a year to design this game who put stuff like this in it.

[@sabinodoi6399]

The easiest solution would be to turn incapacitated from "no actions lolol" to "Action or Bonus Action, you must choose, one you keep the other you lose."

[@bonewizard]

Personally i still think thats a bit to lenient for stun. BUT! That solution is still better than original stun. So go for it.

[@theuncalledfor]

That is also the effect of Tasha's Mind Whip.

[@bonewizard]

@@theuncalledfor i truly think the effect tasha's mind whip causes should be a whole new condition. I think it has a lot of potential.

[@darienb1127]

I agree with most of the points you have here, and i've been in these situations as a player. But I also think that Stun and Paralysis are good tools if use sparingly and correctly as a DM. I homebrew a TON as a DM, which also includes things like unique starus conditons and effects. There's a couple things I like to do to get around this issue. first off: use other status effects more, and change existing stat monster abilites to suit it more. Let's take a Ghoul for example. What if the Ghoul's venom dosen't paralyze, but instead puts the effect of the Slow spell on them? Or even better, what if it still paralyzes, but it has to escalate to that point? That will give the players absolute panic as now they only have so long to stop it before the venom fully stops their body. It feels way more tense that way. There are plenty of ways you can change negative status effects without fully killing the player's turns. Also, effects like Hypnotic Patter are good becuase another player can use their action to snap you out of it. Another thing to do is save the big stun and paralyze effects for the BIG encounters. When these effects come out, the player know that shit gonna go down. When a player gets hit by something Hold Person, it a big deal! One way that's good to keep the player engaged is to really describe how their charatcer feels. Really describe how they can feel their body losing all control and function, and make every save feel tense! You'd be surpised what a bit of good description can do, as it can make them feel like they are still a part of the game, even if they aren't fully active. There's other ways to make them work and I do generally agree with you. But to me, these status conditions are like Garlic. A good seasoning, but can ruin the whole thing if you use too much of it.

[@Shalakor]

What if you're fighting Mind Flayers? Paralysis is the only way they've survived as well as they have. They dumped all their beings into being good at it, and they like to run in packs as their go-to for dealing with stronger foes. ...And adventuring parties in 5E are notoriously less book-smart than in previous generations.

[@Zack_Wester]

yep alot of stun and paralyze spell are instant turn on and off. they should be roll to see if you get paralyze (you did roll to see how long it takes for it to effect you). another thing is to make sure that paralyze and stun dont Conga line over and over. aka gets paralyze overcomes it gets paralyze again overcomes it. MMO have the diminishing return rule and I think for stuff and paralyze this suits perfectly (and maybe make the Diminishing work on the whole party so if one player gets into a Conga line the rest of the party also gets the benefits of diminishing return).

[@bionicdragon5]

I know I'm not the first to say this, and probably won't be the last, but stun is way more balanced in Pathfinder 2e, due to how the action economy works. Instead of just completely removing a character's ability to do ANYTHING for a turn, it instead just takes away an action for every stack of stun. Since everything gets 3 actions a turn, you have to stack the effect three times in a single turn to fully disable a creature. The paralyzed condition is still really strong, but it's kind of supposed to be. But in PF, you can still use mental abilities, including certain spells, and you can still use your turn to analyze the enemy, so long as you don't have to move. In DnD, you're just screwed.

[@bonewizard]

Agreed

[@maximocaseres2526]

Hey, being in jail is great in the later stages of monopoly when most properties are already bought, since it stops you from landing on your enemies hotels while you wait for them to slowly bankrupt themselves.

[@bonewizard]

the late game monopoly meta

[@choczynski]

If you're trying to win a game of Monopoly spending a lot of time in jail is optimal. If you're trying to have fun, then you've already failed by choosing to play a game of Monopoly

[@PsychoMachado]

Keep the conditions like they are, create a third condition called "Slowed" with basically what the Slow spell does, which is almost what you did to Stun and Paralyze. Then have monster effects that paralyze and stun cause Slow instead. Sure, the DM is also a player that can have fun, but he has many more creatures to use at his disposal than the players. Letting them be able to stun and paralyze their enemies makes it more fun to players, while slowing the player makes them more on edge. This is usually the advice for Basilisks and Medusas: instant petrification isn't fun. Progressive petrification adds tension to the game, thus making it more enjoyable.

[@bonewizard]

That is something I would find acceptable.

[@drizzziit1]

No. If you manage to paralyse or stun the monster you instantly win the fight in 90% of cases.

[@PsychoMachado]

@@drizzziit1 But considering the amount of resources the DM can have and the amount of resources the players have, the DM can always tip the balance in his favor if the thinks the fights are too quick by adding more enemies or making combats in waves (which is what I usually do. Large number of enemies, but they come in every round, letting the players to thin the numbers before it gets overwhelming)

[@persiancarpet5535]

​@@PsychoMachado I think he's talking about boss monsters.

[@Lilith_Harbinger]

@@PsychoMachado The issue with this is the system doesn't allow you to have a party VS boss fight. You have to add minions or secondary bosses because some spells just nullify battles completely. Stun and Paralyze are just the tip of the iceberg as well, you're got Polymorph and a bunch more. This is the reason why legendary resistances were added, which are a shitty fix to a problem that should have been dealt with in a different way. More subtle crowd control, like these fixes to Stun and Paralyze, are the better choice.

[@JustaSoothingVoice]

Danm! Very well said! I liked those changes, they really benefit everyone, and that’s what d&d should be about afterall. Now I’m anxious for your video take on the Monk!

[@bonewizard]

I think hombrew can be done a variety of ways. Whatever is best for your table is the best option. So my suggestions will not always be the best. But forcing people to lose turns and not play the game is indisputably bad design and I will die on this hill.

[@JustaSoothingVoice]

@@bonewizard yeah, I also can see that being bad for the Dm who only prepared a single powerful boss that keeps getting stunned by the monk. But on the other hand, if you take stunning strike from the monk, they won’t really have much going on for them. The adjust on this one was on point for both of them.

[@bonewizard]

Stunning strike isn't going away. Just being tweaked.

[@YungKilogram]

Being in prison in monopoly is a fantastic strategy because you don't lose money and can just sit there and collect rent

[@BartiX-on4wn]

I think you can't collect rent while in jail though

[@liamwhite3522]

I was at first very upset. Sure, it sucks when a player gets stunned or paralyzed as a player, but what's also fun is stunning or paralyzing a foe as a player. If the changes you suggested were so large as to ruin the usefulness of the statuses, then it would be unfun to use them ourselves. However, the benefits to stunning are still there. Everyone can attack the stunned foe at advantage, and with gimped move speed they can't escape nearly as easily for the *next* stunning strike. Personally, I would change paralyzed so that movement is negated. You're being magically held, or turned to stone slowly, or whatever the cause is. You aren't able to move from that. Stun you're shaky, but you're on your feet. Paralyzed, your legs don't work anymore.

[@squidmasteriii]

So I do agree, and I want to add that, from a DM's perspective, I've had a lot of my combats be destroyed by spells that stun, paralyse and incapacitate my monsters (like hold person and hypnotic pattern). I'll probably be happier to use these effects against my players if they are different.

[@mdbgamer556]

Bone Wizard, you goober, PUT THIS IN YOUR BUFF ZONE DOC PLEASE! XD

[@bonewizard]

oh, ya i can do that

[@Gaminboi2864]

Nah. I definitely agree that as the DM, you shouldn't overuse stuns. But... I'm still gonna use them. We play every Friday, for a total of 4 to 5 hours, and out combat takes a while but we all try to take our turns quickly. So the player isn't really gonna be stunned for long, at most around 5 minutes, and even then all the players are interested in seeing what all the others are doing as well, I'm the same. However, that's just because of those two factors, game every week, and long play time, so stuns aren't that a big deal for me, but for tables with 5 or more players and only meet once a month or every few months, yeah. Refrain from using stuns unless your bad guys are really smart. To be fair... Out of like 12 sessions into the game I DM, I only used a 5th level Banishment once, but the fighter resisted it, and the cleric casted scorching ray, hit only once, and my monster cleric (with a +3 con) rolled a 2 on her Con save, meaning the blood hunter I sent away got back immediately, and didn't have their turn skipped. So... my take doesn't really matter. But I'm still gonna use stuns because my players were terrified when one of the characters just got shadow realmed lol. I also have a monk rival I plan to introduce against the party, so I kind of need to use stuns for when playing them.

[@Krispy-t5l]

Yea I had a “fight” where myself and another player were stuck in a dream sequence as the other two players fought against flying boat pirates in Eberron. I was thinking of how I would transform the rogue into a pterodactyl and telekinetic push a pirate off his boat and shoot back fireballs and all that fun wizard stuff. But the DM kept us locked in this clunky memory sequence where our turns were learning more about the lore but it was hard to keep track of since our context was going back and forth from the fight to the lore meaning we couldn’t pay attention and weren’t involved. And it’s really hard to get the group together especially our rogue whose absence alone slowed our game by causing like 70% of missed sessions. Fun DM but that was probably one of his worst moments.

[@jackdanson2]

Yeah, that sounds like one of those ideas that sounds fun on paper as the DM, but as you start doing it you realize how poorly it's going. Sometimes you've put so much thought into something that abandoning it mid session is hard to do. I had a session that involved a "rugby/blood bowl" game of sorts against some orcs for a macguffin the party needed. It sounded great on paper, a departure from just normal combat. Basically a bunch of hooligan orcs that get increasingly out of control as the game goes on. Once the "game" started though it slowed the session to a complete halt. Probably one of my worst sessions.

[@panko6817]

pls stop coughing in my mouth

[@bonewizard]

Love takes many forms friend

[@yeethan1094]

0:53 being in jail is actually really good, because you don't have to move onto any other player's property and if they move on to yours, they have to pay you, right?

[@You-ev7kl]

Yeah it was really great when in my first combat I was playing a barbarian and then we got ambushed by a bunch of ranged goblins that could apply condition effects so I started off the combat poisoned, stunned, and paralyzed and every time I managed to shed one they got re-applied.

[@bonewizard]

Thats a bad introduction to combat. Damn.

[@Mr_GoR_]

Actually, jail in Monopoly isn't that bad unless you're already broke. Early game it's only 50 *M*, late game it's 3 turns of not landing on other players' properties.

[@bonewizard]

To be honest, im not to familiar with monopoly meta lol. Im not into the competitive monopoly scene.

[@Mr_GoR_]

@@bonewizard it's remarkable how it can be analagous with real life scenarios (albeit oversimplified). If you have the means, jail is inconsequential. If you're broke, jail is a game ender.

[@theuncalledfor]

FUCKING POSSESSION SAME THING BUT WORSE

[@lordmars2387]

First video of yours I've seen and I'm here in the first hour. As a DM of an all caster party few things suck more than a grapple monster having the player teleport free with no consequences or challenges, seriously FUCK THAT. Restrained in a gut keeps you from wielding 2 handers why cant restrained stop somatic components at least. My grief expressed time to check out your channel.

[@bonewizard]

I means its your game. If a PC is restrained and you think that you should be able to use somatic components, i think thats a reasonble thing to add into your table. Also if your having trouble with casters ecaping grappleing, have you considered throwing many more grappling creatures at them at once? Imagine. A vast ocean like expanse composed entirely of greased up angry luchadores. And the party must go through this sea of grappling boys. Its beautiful.

[@infamousXsniper055]

As far as I know, there is no free teleport in dnd 5e. A player is basically always using a limited resource and either a bonus action or action. Forcing a player to spend their turn using a bonus action on Misty Step so they can only cast cantrips after that is a significant cost for them when the alternative is them casting Fireball or similar spells.

[@hieronymusnervig8712]

Aren't you just failing as a DM here? What do you even get from restraining or murdering them? We're just trying to make things fun for them. Plus you are burning both their resources and their action. They effectively waste their turn teleporting and casting a cantrip AND they loose a spell slot. All that to escape the very mundane restrained condition.

[@professorwatt7344]

I have a full caster party and I can tell you that even a singular grapple can cause the party to go wild because they now have to focus on keeping away. The Sorcerer gets grappled the only thing he really CAN do is misty step and run. It significantly costs him if he is mispositioned or gets caught. There is a reason they can get out with only the use of the spell slot, its incredibly costly. On the other hand the druid will straight up return a grapple with a grapple. Ever grabbed someone and had them turn into a fricken BEAR?

[@theuncalledfor]

@@hieronymusnervig8712 Add to that that you cannot Misty Step out of a creature's stomach anyway. From other restraints, sure, but only if you can still see. They have to spend at least a fourth level slot to escape when they cannot see, because Dimension Door does not require line of sight.

[@francomaemori7123]

I'm willing to suffer anything just so I can enjoy those sweet sweet, INSTA-CRITS. Great video m8

[@bonewizard]

Insta-crits are pure dopamine

[@MarkoSeldo]

Stun: half move, disadvantage on attack rolls, auto-lose concentration on spells Paralyze: first round of being paralysed, half move, disadvantage on attack rolls and skill checks; second and subsequent rounds, zero move, keep disadvantage, auto-fail Dex saves, no spells with somatic components.

[@robbiesrevelations3096]

2:22 No fuck my phone

[@BeaglzRok1]

One of the worst things about Paralyze/Stun is that it Incapacitates. Which doesn't sound like much, unless you read the books and realize that it ends Concentration as well as several class features. Also, they really are basically the same thing: no (re)actions, no movement, no (clear in the case of Stun) speaking, auto-fail STR and DEX saves, and attacks against you have advantage. The only things different is that Paralyze is entirely restrictive on talking, and attacks within 5ft crit. Why even differentiate at that point? Personally, either lump them together, or make Stun less good than a more impactful Paralyze. For Stun, I too would vote that it only halves your movement (movie-like hit where they stagger around uselessly, instead of fighting-game-type where they stand still for ten whole seconds looking like an idiot. That's how the players and DM feel when their player gets Stunned, like an idiot), and prevents taking reactions independent of the Incapacitated condition, which it will lose. For real, Monks, do you really need Stunning Strike to be an extra CON-save anti-Mage button when you get four attacks per round to trigger CON-save Concentration checks anyway? No, you don't. Paralyze, I didn't forget you either. Your bonus to make up for not Incapacitating (because I don't get how having your body paralyzed makes you unable to concentrate) is that you are the one that makes a(n N)PC have to choose between an Action or Bonus Action on their turn. Most importantly, ALL Actions while under the effects of either will require a coin flip d20 roll to properly execute. Do you want to Dash or Disengage while Stunned? Hope you're lucky, but at least you won't be rooted to the spot if you fail. Do you want to make a desperate final attack while Paralyzed before you get crit to hell? Go for the roll, fight to get control back before you go out.

[@RenoKyrie]

To me i think Stun(And honestly the Sleep status aswell) should be the Crit one while Paralyze makes the enemy rolls on attacks or evading on disadvantage as if their action economy isnt screwed over allready You COULD make it more mean with giving enemies with Paralyzing attacks have abilities that lets them Crit on Paralyzed enemies

[@TwinSteel]

Um actually that video is out… and it’s great 👍🏿

[@bonewizard]

Thanks!

[@SirEliteGrunt]

Btw I love these changes. To make it simpler and fix other abilities that remove player choice, your changes are the incapacitated condition to slow. This change keeps the auto crit and the advantage disadvantage effects for stunned and paralyzed as those are separate effects of the conditions. It would also change are any monster “charm also incapacitates on failed save” but interestingly it also applies to unconscious. At first I thought this was bad but why not change unconscious to a bleeding out condition where you have the limited action now to give you something to do while down. healing yourself with this action should work like the spell casting mechanic of slow however if you fail it, you fail a death saving throw instead of healing.

[@modakkagitplugga]

Good advice, thanks for it. I like it. I'm going to split them into two degress of stun and paralyze though. Minor and serious. Minor stun and paralyze uses your rules, while greater stun and paralyze use rules as written, i'll keep them narratively focused with the core idea being that serious happens outside of combat while minor happens in it. Probably makes sense to include the greater versions in combat of pvp scenarios, to help discourage that in general. Outside of those parameters, it seems too dangerous to leave up to the dm. I want to abuse my players and myself, but we all should end up enjoying it collectively.

[@KatanaKamisama]

I think your changes to the Stun Condition neuter Monk's Stunning Strike ability. Making an already sub-optimal class even worse. I think your changes to paralyzed are out right bad. If you feel like you need to change it that much... just remove it from your game. And while you're at it... remove all the spells that cause that condition. Here's the thing... if bad stuff can't ever happen to your PC's... your players are weak. ANY DM should use these conditions in moderation, not every fight needs to result in half the party not playing, but it is 100% okay to give your players challenges to overcome. Neutering these punishing conditions ALSO means when the players use them.. they suck. Imagine using Hold Person... but they can still move at half speed and cast spells... uh.. NO. If you don't like the rules... play a different game.

[@bonewizard]

I guarantee your players will enjoy this change. Unless they are monk, but they need alot of changes. Increased martial arts die, more ki, ect.

[@KatanaKamisama]

@@bonewizard Possibly. I also have a problem with "stun" and "paralyzed" being used to caption the status you described. Because the description does not match the name of the condition. It might go over better if you called them "Staggered" and "Dazed" respectively. Since neither imply that the target is totally incapacitated.

[@bonewizard]

@@KatanaKamisama You can call it whatever you want to fit better. The point was more to stop forcing players not to play the game they have been looking forward to playing for a whole week.

[@ragnarspec9867]

I mean Stun and Paralysis are both bad but it's even worse when the DM uses Charms or Straight up mind controls on you. Honestly having been a player on the receiving end of such an event its made worse by players that roleplay being pissy with you for turning on them even when you've been nothing but a bro the whole game... Losing a few turns is not as bad as when the DM or another player takes control from you and play your character for you, that's the hill I'm dying on. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk, have a nice day

[@saeedrazavi4428]

What I enjoy is a trusting DM/Player relationship where the DM can mind control my character and tell me to attack the party, and I'll do so to the best of my ability, pulling no punches and treating my party like the BBEG's because my DM said to. Its not always the case that you get a good DM/Player relationship where the DM can trust the player not to metagame in their party's favor with that kind of stuff, but I really enjoy and appreciate having that established and agreed upon with my DM. That said, even in that circumstance where I was literally mind controlled, it was wildly frustrating that one of the players at our table actually got frustrated at me for not pulling my punches and basically cheating by saying "even though I'm mind controlled I'm gonna be very kind and try not to hurt you"

[@ragnarspec9867]

@@saeedrazavi4428 I really wish I could trust my DM's to be cool about this, maybe I've just been burned out by railroading too damn much. If theres a cool story reason for stuff happening its fine, but I have problems when any random mage or monster comes out of left field and uses mind control/charms/confusion. I just think its a lame way to create difficulty. Honestly I have to agree with the Bone Wizard, its so difficult to get all your friends in the same room or even all online at the same time, why ruin it by killing all the fun of the game. Seriously I just said no to dnd 3.5 due to the sheer number of things that have save or die effects. Instant death works in games where you can reload, in a tabletop game its just awful, imagine spending a while week thinking up a cool character and then you roll a 2, and have to do it all over again, come up with some new nonsense reason that a new dude with similar powers just happens to be where you need. Theres so many things in dnd that in the wrong hands become at best boring, and at worst actually make people quit tabletop games.

[@saeedrazavi4428]

@@ragnarspec9867 yeah I frigging hate save or die effects

[@theuncalledfor]

@@saeedrazavi4428 Having to attack my own allies would be even worse. I would just quit the game at that point, probably.

[@bonewizard]

@@theuncalledfor hey c'mon. Thats excessive. If something bothers you that much, talk to your DM first. They just want everyone to have a good time. If the problem persists after you bring it up once or twice, then you should leave.

[@alexmiller1800]

Just realized now by digging through the nested mess that is dnd conditions that Hold Person is a 2nd Level Spell that, if you fail the save, you automatically lose concentration in addition to losing your turn. Also, a small side note: Why the fuck does the Incapacitated condition not say anything about breaking concentration?! Why do you have to go to the rules on Concentration to see that being Incapacitated breaks concentration?! Why not put it in the condition?!

[@igrgic1]

The people need new videos :(

[@bonewizard]

Tomorrow

[@JMSginoclave]

> Monk, Variant Human or Custom Origin. > Fighting Initiate Feat for Unarmed Fighting. 1d8 damage w/Martial Arts/Flurry of Blows.

[@dumbwaki5877]

if you want unarmed fighting, just take 1 level of fighter instead of wasting a feat that barely gets you 1 extra damage a round......

[@JMSginoclave]

@@dumbwaki5877 1d4 > 1d8. That's on average +2 damage each attack (+4/+6/+8 dmg per turn), without weapons. Hardly wasting a feat at level 1 by increasing your early dmg so. Monk, due to Ki point/feature progression, is hard to justify a multiclass (+2 Flurries of Blows > 1 Action Surge, both take 2 levels of Monk or Fighter). Once your Martial Arts gets to d8, change Fighting Style on an ASI to Superior Technique, getting a Maneuver and a Superiority die.

[@opo33333]

Or just pick Crossbow Expert on fighter

[@JMSginoclave]

@@opo33333 Which only results in more total attacks and damage at level 11, while most sessions don't go far beyond 5.

[@dumbwaki5877]

@@JMSginoclave firstly, you're assuming you're hitting every single time which you're not, if you probably have a ~60% accuracy on average if AC is scaling on encounters, so maybe 1.2 extra damage per unarmed strike, however this does not mean you are doing 3+ extra damage a round. A d8 damage die is already on a monk, you can just use a quarterstaff, meaning you're ONLY boosting your bonus action unarmed strikes, so like, +2.4 if you're using flurry of blows, but like you said, you're obviously not going to be using flurry of blows every time because monks lack ki, so it's so much less than that, you're getting less than 2 extra damage a round. that's not good enough damage to justify a feat. Now, the reason why a level 1 dip in fighter could be way better is because you are 1)not wasting a feat on a fighting style 2) getting proficiency with martial weapons that you can use with Dedicated Weapon from Tasha's, meaning you can achieve a d10 damage die for attacks. this is actually worth the delay in ki points and is why fighter dips in monks can be great, because it means you can use that level 1 feat to make up for the loss in monk features by taking crusher or sentinel or some other feat that allows you to get more options and more resources which monks want.

[@arecold4222]

I love the slow spell

[@BraveryBeyond]

I don't believe the proposed changes in this video actually fix anything, and arguably make the problem worse by giving players a false sense of hope. The underlying problem is the "save or suck" mentality that 5e takes with its conditions. The paralyze and stun conditions (along with a few others) wouldn't be nearly as bad if you suffered their effects over multiple rounds in combat. This gives the player an immediate problem to solve while still providing them agency over multiple rounds to do something about it. Or they can ignore it and slowly watch as the consequences for their negligence get worse. Ex. Paralyzed After failing the first saving throw, the target cannot take reactions and makes all attack rolls at disadvantage. After failing the second saving throw, has disadvantage on all strength or dexterity based saving throws and its movement speed is halved. After failing the third saving throw, attacks against the target are made with advantage and the target can use either its action or bonus action on its turn, not both. After failing the fourth saving throw, the target fails all strength or dexterity based saving throws, has a movement speed of 0, and any melee attack against the creature that hits is a critical hit. This also solves the issue of players wanting to inflict punchy effects on their targets. Players can inflict the highest level of a status condition, while monsters have to build up conditions on the players.

[@berea2258]

The spooky is back!!!! Call upon the undead army boyz!

[@bonewizard]

I have emerged from my Bone Zone to deliver unto you a message of great import... incapacitate bad.

[@meatKog]

Waaah!!!

[@ai.yeehaw]

I like using stun/paralyzed for kidnapping sessions (when a player can't make it, I employ bounty hunters to try and kidnap that character) If they succeed, perfect session for the remaining party. If they dont succeed, a good story to tell the player that missed (and maybe the wont miss sessions)

[@strangershero7207]

Holy shit I’ve been thinking this for a while and I can’t believe someone said it subscribe immediately

[@bonewizard]

Be the change you wanna see in the world mate.

[@z.m.6053]

I’ll say, I think stun and paralyze are conditions that suffer from a difference in expectations between the games designers and most of its players. It’s like how *nobody* does 6-8 encounters per long rest (at least most people don’t). Likewise, nobody does pre-quest preparation. If you are a DM and the party is facing monsters that stun or paralyze and they didn’t have the ability to know that in advance via researching dusty tomes or talking to NPC’s or something, you’re doing to make those conditions a nightmare to play against. Moreover, players, if your DM is sending you to defeat strange and mysterious monsters which have felled many a previous adventuring party, hit the books! I think far too many tables just want to jump into combat right away, which is understandable, given the stars-align scheduling of D&D. The DM wants to throw cool monsters at the party, and the party wants to nuke them with their awesome builds. But stun and paralyze aren’t just a difficulty increase, they require a different kind of play to be fun. There’s a reason that casters prepare spells and there’s a reason that relatives cheap magic consumables exist! However, I’ve got to say, stunning strike (while obviously good) isn’t at all broken in my opinion. The monk’s single target, two-turn, ki-point-consuming, wisdom-based, con-save dependent stun ability has so many handicaps and is so easy to see coming if you’re a DM (they’re playing a monk, make an inference) that it should just work. When a player invests long term and short term resources into using a core class ability on a class that already suffers from poor AC, low HP, low resources, etc. they deserve to have their moment. Besides, any creature with strong con saves (notoriously many) or legendary resistances (or both) can usually shrug off stunning strike for so many rounds that you’re better off using your ki for direct attacks. (Although, I’ve noticed that stunning strike is a great way for a high-wis monk player to quickly eat up a monster’s LR’s)

[@kerwinbrown4180]

Sleep, encumbered, etc do excentially the same. Dead is even worse.

[@renatocorvaro6924]

While I absolutely agree that players not getting to play is a real problem, this makes decent spells less good. Not enough less good that I think it'd stop anyone from taking Hold Person or whatever, but it's still something to keep in mind.

[@TheInfamousBertman]

So with your rules, when they're paralyzed, they're...not paralyzed? Why not just remove the condition entirely?

[@bonewizard]

Its easier to change this one aspect, than to rebalance every monster and spell that has effects like this.

[@Animefan1803]

Stunned should simply have a falling DC. Even if a high tier spellcaster monster has say a DC 16, 17, 18 etc. If the save dc of the stunned condition falls with every turn by 2, you atleast are closer to ACTUALLY playing again instead of being cut in a loop of:"Great.. another turn i can´t use it´s also the 15th time..."

[@bonewizard]

nah id rather just let my player play the game.

[@Animefan1803]

@@bonewizard That´s fair. But with a falling Dc one could atleast somewhat lighten the blow of the current stun condition without having to make an entirely new condition. And with say starting with a DC of 18 and consequative falls by 2, each turn the chance of breaking out actually moves up by like 10% and maxing out at like a max of 9 turns if people are rolling REALLY dogshit. Instead of some saves simply being stagnant. Idk if that´s a good idea. I kinda wanna try it. Also this would still allow DM´s a decent tool for bigger groups of players.

[@jeremyleyland1047]

Late game... Jail is where you actually want to be

[@Zetzteno]

I mean hating on cc is fine and all but are you really going to leave out all the mind control mechanics 5e has? I mean I get that it’s the monsters main ability and should thus be broken but goddamn If it ain’t worse than stun/paralyze.

[@bonewizard]

I didn't touch on mind control mechanics because I've used it once in my game. I don't think i have enough expirence with it to confidently speak on it.

[@ebertwix5860]

I agree that not being able to do anything is pretty bad and discourages players, but I feel there should be a meaningful difference between paralyze and stun. Paralyzed maybe should mean you can't use movement and can barely do anything, maybe use that d20 roll to see if they can use an action at all

[@bonewizard]

The automatic crits is pretty meaningful.

[@robbyyounglove3051]

@@bonewizard The change for stun is fine because stunning can just mean stumbling around and trying to catch up with the rest of the party in a debilitative state. Paralyzing, however is fine as is because thematically your joints are locked into place. Casting Hold Person on someone should feel like a Darth Vader force choke rather than a light grip. Not being able to move and autocritting in 5 ft makes sense in irl context and is rewarding to players that can use the paralyze condition effectively DM's included.

[@T1M3L3SS_]

great points overall and very nice video, however, your phone has legitimately the goofiest ringtone ever so you just lost the argument sorry, i don't make the rules

[@bonewizard]

This is kangaroo court

[@nateo3040]

Just watched the XP to level 3 video on the same topic, glad to see people seem to agree that turning a character into a hollow shell for a round or more sucks

[@bonewizard]

its the worst part of any ttrpg.

[@nicolaezenoaga9756]

Nice!

[@littulv]

Stick the paralysis on a DC 22 wis save.

[@bonewizard]

If i did that my players would shoot me. And i wouldn't blame them!

[@spacehitler4537]

Had a gm use mass hold person on us with a DC 22 wis save. Yes that was about as fun as it sounds. The entire encounter sucked.

[@jameswright2623]

Is it just me or is that the rebel galaxy music playing in the background?

[@bonewizard]

Its just you. Its mostly enter the gungeon music.

[@omegadragonRandom]

Hey at least it’s not v3 energy drain

[@crystalkalem9289]

I highly disagree with the better paralyze, dropping a creatures speed to 0 is a totally acceptable effect, half movement while you are a stone statue however? nah

[@bonewizard]

that's petrification. Not stun.

[@bonewizard]

also telling your friends to not play the game you invited them to for the sake of realism is really horrible reason to keep stun as is.

[@fortello7219]

One time; I sent 2 level 5 clerics and 2 level 5 paladins to fight a group of level 5 players. (They angered the church) The clerics won initiative. The clerics cast hold person at level 3. The 4 party members failed their saves. None saved on their turn. The paladins did 2nd level smites. One per character. TPK

[@bonewizard]

Did the group have fun?

[@fortello7219]

@@bonewizard Eh. They didn't hate it but it was clearly extreme bad luck (they all failed DC 13 twice) so we kind of retconned the event.

[@bonewizard]

@@fortello7219 i mean to be fair, that enemy group is a dead character waiting to happen lol

[@Seraphzero0]

Totally agree! 💯

[@rutetorresdossantos5391]

Idk...i feel its not a big deal having stun and paralyse in a game. I Just think they need to be changed somethings: A character can only be stunned for (or 1d2 turns if you want more) and after it they are immune to getting stunned again for the fight(or change to be like the same result of the stunned result),and like...make sense they should do more things(they still can attack and run and move their arms while stunned)so the use of a action or bonus action make sense. Now the paralysed condition should continue making them Impossible to move and attack,they are literally paralysed they cant move or do anything at all,is like temporary dying.

[@bonewizard]

Do you normally play DnD as a player? Or as a DM?

[@rutetorresdossantos5391]

@@bonewizard mmmm...i played most as a player,but i like being a dm. As a player i never got stunned so this part idk

[@bonewizard]

@@rutetorresdossantos5391 bruh.

[@zacharybosley1935]

Do we have this energy for Confusion or Domination?

[@bonewizard]

Confusion yes. Dominate person is a maybe. Depends how you handle it. I can't speak for everyone, but I personally would not mind if my character failed a save for dominate person, the DM told me what to do, but I still did all the rolls for my character. If the dm was playing my character entirely, that's less fun. I could see a case for both sides.

[@spellslots]

Very good points. Has anyone here played with these changes? If so, tell me how it went!

[@bonewizard]

I have! Kept the players more engaged. They had more fun. But they were still debilitated. Highly recommend.

[@zackarychristian9489]

buff the feats

[@JokersVsZombies]

Disagreement

[@Brutalyte616]

I feel the two conditions should be more mechanically distinct, rather than rebalanced

[@bonewizard]

I disagree. The 2 being similar doesn't worsen the game, the not being able to play does. BUUUUTTT that doesn't mean you shouldn't make up some brand new conditions and try them in your game. You could even make a spell that does it and let your players try it. If they don't have access to the spell, then slap it on a magic item.

[@Brutalyte616]

@@bonewizard Well if they were more distinct, then they would be more different and balanced instead of two keywords for the same poorly thought out condition. Like Stun being weaker but more readily accessible to friend and foe alike, whereas Paralyze effects would be conversely harder to find but would be way more devastating and rightly feared. That way there is a distinct progression of severity between the Dazed, Stunned, and Paralyzed conditions with subtle differences between the three so Daze and Stun effects might be preferable to Paralyze for whatever reason. The balancing issue stems from a needless mechanical redundancy that I'm shocked made it into 5e proper.

[@tyrotech6916]

banishment is this but worse. I got benched in two bbeg in a row and I was the designated dps

[@bonewizard]

Oh ya, banishment should just not be used on PCs

[@theuncalledfor]

If a BBEG Banishes my buddy, Imma Sleet Storm that fecker. Concentration check against my spell save DC!

[@andrewandsueniemeyer6958]

IDK, the way they are does raise the stakes of a fight... One of the examples in another's comment was a barbarian kicking the crap out of the every bab guy after they almost tpk'ed the rest of the party. Personally if I was the DM I would have said the bbeg knows he can't take you in a straight fight, so he kills everyone else to gang up on you. Or as the barbarian, you play conscious but stuck. So every round you fail, you see your buddies struggling and just get madder There's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. Use of environment is key, use it tactically, not as a crutch to be a challenge Horde of ghouls, everyone scamper up a wall/tree. Ranged players become better. Melee focus on beating anyone off the wall/tree. Melee character getting hit takes on epic meaning (roll to fall off!!)

[@yanderenejoyer]

There are a couple things I just don't use as DM, or make very sparce use of. Stuns/Paralize. No brainers. Usually very short range, to only hit melees, an generally a con save. Confusion. This one also sucks. Flight. This is a bit different. If they have ranged options its ok. If not, there is frequently a way to bring the enemy to the floor, or some ranged siege weapons. Or they have very low health. Or they know they are going to fight a flying enemy way in advance (like raiding a dragon's abode). Power Word Kill. Sleep*. Any instakill ability. These can be used, but there has to be a countermeasure. Sleep is a no go at level 1 though, otherwise fine. I'm sure there's other stuff, but this is most of the problematic ones.

[@Gamer-gd4iw]

Guys pls help whats the music starting in 2:33? I swear i heard it somewhere but my memory fails me.

[@bonewizard]

Its from the Bastion soundtrack.

[@Gamer-gd4iw]

@@bonewizard thank you kind bone man

[@bonewizard]

@@Gamer-gd4iw no problem

[@funnyblog100]

I had a character who the dm would try to do this with because my character was actually the biggest threat to his encounters. It was still fun because I was playing a burst damage sniper. He was a bard from the college of whispers and had the sharpshooter and crossbow expert feats so he could do a ton of damage in a single action. I also took some levels in rogue so he was actually quite hard to pin down and target. So the dm needed to pin him down quickly and close the distance before he landed his big attack. Otherwise he would start using control spells and hitting the boss for a ton of damage. My build had wrecked a few boss fights.

[@joshuagranstrom7954]

I like this, probably see if setting your speed to 0 is that bad rather than 1/2 but that’s what playtest is for.

[@bonewizard]

Do it. Id love to hear the results.

[@mortalitydoesstuff8965]

You could even do 1/4 rounded up if 1/2 feels like too much and 0 is too punishing Or maybe consecutive applications of stun (which monks are VERY likely to do) reduce it from 1/2 to 1/4 to 0, like you're already stunned but now you're bordering a concussion haha

[@ebertwix5860]

Reducing to 5 feet would be a sweet spot if you want it to be more punishing but not 0. 5ft speed puts people into fight or flight mode in my experience

[@PapaBearIsHere]

Question: Would Hold person be changed as an ability? it would be alot worse with this version

[@bonewizard]

Hold person would change, but its still very debilitating. Its not as big of a deal when players use a stunning effect, the video is more pointed toward using it on players. I still think it stinks all around though.

[@PapaBearIsHere]

@@bonewizard Just had a session with hold person Bone lord, I lost 3 turns due to rolling 3-4s as a monk (thanks for the ascendant dragon changes) and basically knocked out, but at the same time it was partially our fault as we could've taken them out easily instead of focusing the enemies frontline I like the spell mechanically overall so I wouldn't actually wanna remove it or nerf it to the ground, it wouldn't really make sense the hold person spell allows you to still do actions as that just make it worse slow, so what would you do specifically?

[@bonewizard]

It doesn't matter what the choices you made were. You are completely not at fault you lost turns. The fault lies on the game design. Random chance chose how much you got to play. Good games don't put you in a 15 - 30 minute timeout for bad RNG. That kind of game does not exist. Id encourage you to try the changes. I genuinely believe in them that much. It is a lot like the slow spell, and I don't think you realize how punishing that is. Keep in mind you still get auto crit when you cast hold person on some which is brutal. These changes give choices to the enemy, but the choice are not good ones. @@PapaBearIsHere

[@PapaBearIsHere]

@@bonewizard alright, thanks for the wise words bone wiz

[@bonewizard]

hope it helps@@PapaBearIsHere

[@smarmydude3019]

Currently working on Martials in general, have been... very uncertain how to approach Monk. This take makes me a lot more confident to go into it, looking forward to the Monk episode in its entirety

[@Devotee_of_void]

That is why stun and paralyzed conditions must be those which players are afraid of Also auto crits are the very important part of those

[@vixevinweria8400]

I like your stun condition but the paralyzed is too weak and it isn't really paralyzed. It should still have them fall prone and have their speed reduced to 0 rather than reduced by half. I also don't think they should be able to attack, but you could make a "Partially paralyzed" and a "fully paralyzed" effect where partial is your version with the tweaks I added above and fully having these additional tweaks: You cannot make melee, ranged, or unarmed attacks and you can't cast spells that require material or somatic components. Things that would normally cause paralysis now cause partial paralysis and being subjected to a second paralysis effect causes full paralysis.

[@bonewizard]

As long as a player can still do something on their turn, i think its fine. Though id be careful about getting rid off attack AND getting rid of movement speed. Because whats that leave them with? Drink a potion (IF they have one), dodge, Help (IF they can), and use an object. Certain PCs characters get stuff with their bonus action, but a lot of PHB characters don't. The point is as long as a player can still play, its an improvement. But if they still can do absolutely nothing, they won't like your game.

[@vixevinweria8400]

@@bonewizard In my opinion a full paralysis should mean no use of arms, legs, or other appendages, so basically that leaves you with talking, and biting. It just really doesn't make sense to say someone is paralyzed if they are up and walking around, no matter how slowly. Also if you're making paralysis into just a slow down you're greatly reducing the effectiveness of spells like hold person/monster, and punishing players who take those spells. Yes it's an annoying effect and that's why it should be avoided at all costs, and you should give paralyzing abilities to your monsters very sparingly.

[@bonewizard]

@@vixevinweria8400 i mean if were using realism to justify paralysis, then you should not be able to recover from it in 6 seconds. It should at the very least take 6 months with intensive physical therapy.

[@vixevinweria8400]

@@bonewizard My reasoning was not about realism. It is (usually) magically induced artificial paralysis, but it doesn't make sense to call it paralysis if it doesn't look anything like paralysis. If you intend on changing it to the point that it doesn't resemble paralysis why not just rename it and exclude the paralysis condition from your game altogether. There are over 60 spells that only require speech, yes that leaves pure martial classes at a large disadvantage. As long as someone in the group can cast lesser restoration you'll be ok, but for those who are determined to avoid these set backs I would suggest this feat: Unstoppable: Prerequisite: Constitution 13 or higher. You are an expert at escaping sticky situations. • You have advantage on all saving throws to avoid being Incapacitated, stunned, or paralyzed. • You have advantage on all ability checks to escape a grapple • On your turn you can choose to take 10 damage to end the Incapacitated, stunned, or paralyzed condition on yourself. You can use this option a number of times equal to your constitution modifier(minimum 1). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

[@bonewizard]

@Vixe Vinweria i mean you call the effect steve for all i care. Its semantics. Ahh my favorite retort. "As long as someone has lesser restoration, you can cure paralyzed" So as long as you prep this spell, your teammate can continue to play the game? That is what your saying translates too. Heres why that is a counterpoint doesn't work. 1. It forces people to play certain classes. 2. It punishes players straying from normal party compositions. I think the all fighter party should have some struggles, but not being able to play is not one of them. 3. It forces casters to always prep it, because they (normally) can't predict what they will fight next. And i want my buddy to not get totally benched. 4. If the only person that can cast that spell gets paralyzed, then what? You can just never stun that player, but thats favoritism and really unfair to everyone else. 5. It doesn't even cure stunned. As for the feat, i can't see anyone taking this. Its underpowered and situational. And if i have to take a feat to have a better chance just to play the game, I'm finding a different group. Look as long as your players are enjoying your game, that all that matters. But if they aren't having fun while everyone else is fighting in combat, consider what i said in the video.

[@spriggangt]

Okay, I get what your are saying and I don't disagree. There is a but, there is always a "but". But action economy is the single biggest thing that allows players to stomp encounters. Not every bad guy can have 3 legendary actions, lair actions, multiple reactions and their own normal action just to combat the players superior action economy. The other option being to slog down combat with as many or more smaller enemies. It's a fine line for sure. To your point though, stun isn't even the worst offender. I think banish is just way more annoying because at least with stun there is still some pressure there. You can still be attacked and your party still has to keep you safe potentially. Not the most engaging scenario but still there is some drama attatched. Banish is just putting a player on full check out mode. So I homebrewed some things for spells like banish and even abilities like stun that are beyond just a saving throw to make it more interesting so it feels like the player is engaged and doing something. Like with Banish they have to fight off something to return back. It's a bit more interesting for the player and keeps the crowd control options open for bad guys that I think is needed to help create challenges for your PCs.

[@theuncalledfor]

Do keep in mind that Banish can also be used as an emergency escape from another plane of existence. Maybe add a clause that a willing creature does not have to fight anything, and can just stay banished.

[@shadesofgray9]

What about Banishment?

[@bonewizard]

Complete sentences are important my guy.

[@shadesofgray9]

@@bonewizard sorry didn't notice the text was missing. I'm curious how you might fix banishment in the same vain.

[@bonewizard]

@@shadesofgray9 Funnily enough, I just banned banishment in my game. Mostly for story reason though. For a DM using it on a player, I think if you prepare something for where the player got banished so they can still do something on their turn, even if its all RP stuff. For a player using it on a DM? Idk. A save at the end of each round, or maybe a hard ban. Personally i think banishment is very anticlimactic. If you succeed with it on the first turn, you get to play less of the game the DM prepped. Which isn't great.

[@kingduckie9135]

As someone who has on a couple of occasions been paralysed for multiple turns I gotta say I personally don't think the effect is the problem more just how people deal with it and whether or not it has concentration. If it's a long duration paralyse without concentration then yeah that really sucks but the spells are usually concentration and if they aren't, they are either low DC or the monster isn't too strong to balance it. Now I don't know the monster manual by heart so I might be missing some examples but the only time that being paralysed for a long time annoyed me was when a wizard cast hold person and even though the party knew who cast it on me, they continued to fight a big tanky guy whilst complaining that I was the only one who did enough damage to faze him.