D&D & WOTC Survey Results! - Lazy RPG Talk Show

[@BobWorldBuilder]

Mike, you're right! (gonna start all my comments like that now) Loved hearing your take on the survey and thanks for mentioning Delve! :)

[@SlyFlourish]

You were right too!

[@agilemonk6305]

You were both right. ❤

[@creative.cauldron]

The Vader agreement or the Lando agreement 🤣. I'll just stick to paper and pencil. Thanks 👍.

[@badgerburns521]

Mike, you're right!! Honestly without rehashing old beefs with WOTC, they haven't restored enough good faith for me. I haven't bought any new products from WOTC, hasbro since OGL. Mastering Dungeons has also been helpful in showing the lack of community restoring relations. Its going to take a while for me. Cynthia Williams could be positive, it depends on the change of their direction as a result of this

[@mechanussunrise]

Same. Plus I have found other games I enjoy more including non-WOTC, non-5e versions of D&D.

[@theJoPanda]

Same choices and feel as you sir

[@tmcmurdo826]

I include myself in this group as well.

[@stuartbailey6152]

I’m in a group of 8 players, 3 of us are DM’s. We have been playing D&D since the early 80’s and it has been the glue that has kept our friendships going since that time. I had all WOTC content until the OGL. Until Hasbro sells I’m not buying another WOTC product and this goes for the others in my group too. Really unhappy with the direction toward micro transactions and a bells and whistles D&D Beyond.. it’s not our game, I’m out. Will stick to the books and pdfs that we have now, and will play other RPG’s too. No new WOTC content again.

[@imkranely7230]

I love Pathfinder Nexus because anything you buy gets you the PDFs. And vice versa, if you already own the PDF, you get a discount on the digital content.

[@lucamonticelli267]

And the problem is, despite being leagues better than DND beyond in that regard is still subpar for the standard of PF, You can buy pdf independently on paizo site, pathbuilder il 5 bucks for you character creator, and AoN is free for quick reference. How can dndbeyond not have competitors with their model i will never understand.

[@agilemonk6305]

I’ve already supported Bob WorldBuilder. Becomes he - like you Mike and PDM - our some of the best folks out here supporting our hobby in a positive way and light. ❤

[@henrystefanov5873]

I don't understand why they'd remove the a la carte feature on dndbeyond . I'd understand not including it in future books, and certainly 3rd party books shouldn't feel pressured to do it. But it's only slightly harder to make a homebrew feature/weapon/Subclass then it is to spend $2 on just that feature. Players don't need an entire book if they are just interested in one thing in it. They were much more likely to get the $2 from me, now I'll just make the same feature as a "homebrew" on the site until they inevitably remove that feature..

[@MrJerks93]

Could be any number of reasons between tech reasons and just a straight up business reasons. My game is fully remote. I love DnDBeyond for the service, but I have no illusions about what rights I have purchasing through them. I still get the books I really like from my FLG store (often 2nd hand).

[@Tomeroche]

It's just greed and laziness. A La Carte showed that the playerbase only views parts of certain books valuable, dumping like 90% of the content in the book because only 1 or 2 pieces are worth grabbing. Rather than upping the standards of the other parts, or being glad they're at least selling piecemeal what would probably not seel at all they only see that most of their book is not making a profit so they chain it to the profitable ones in the hopes they can force people to buy it. It's like Cable Companies. I don't know why people have such a hard time grasping this after we have repeatedly seen WotC shoot themselves in the foot due to greedy underhanded practices in just the last couple years alone.

[@Victor.Alteria]

Mike, you're right! Some of these tips on how to be a good steward of the hobby, are just tips on how to be a good person.

[@gedece]

My own group is getting away from D&D, we are moving to other systems like FATE and PBTA, with a little OSR, and I'm lately getting into Ironsworn, Masks, Dungeon World, Shadowdark and beta testing Daggerheart and I'm getting interest in Shadow of the Weird Wizard. So many interesting things to play to care about D&D at all. What I'm doing is translating several D&D resources I have to other systems. I'm also getting into game design a little, and after doing some testing and adjustments I'm planning to publish. It's not something big. it's only a playbook for a PBTA game, but I'm feeling proud about it's creation as I feel the pieces setting in.

[@jacktough]

PLEASE spin the Stewardship component off to its own video. I would very much like to share it far and wide. Thank you for your contributions to this community :)

[@SlyFlourish]

Will do

[@imayb1]

I believe WotC removed a la carte shopping because of their new "partnered" books. I'm guessing they didn't want to mess with buying pieces of Grim Hollow or Dungeon Dudes' work... and working out monetary compensation for those pieces. So, they got rid of their own piecemeal options, too. I think you're right about the upcoming 5.5 books, too. They don't want players just purchasing the classes, they want players to shell out the whole $60 for the new PHB.

[@Phleanix]

Ha! I made a cameo of sorts in this video... that made me smile! 😅 Another great episode of the Talk Show. Thanks Mike!

[@dantherpghero2885]

Mike you were right. That's why I Love ALL Sly Flourish videos! Hail Bob!

[@mohalledaar5798]

Mike, you were right!

[@darkmagician666]

Loved the discussion on being a good steward of the hobby. I'm DMing for some new players and these are great things to have in mind.

[@TabletopTiger]

Regarding a la carte changes: Occams Razor most likely meaning it all comes down to money.

[@bokodasu]

One of the reasons I never played 4e was their online subscription for all the stuff - I didn't trust it not to disappear. And indeed, it's been gone for years now, but I still have all my 3.5 books and they work just fine.

[@adamdorris7104]

Kudos to both you and Bob for championing the cause of kindness in the hobby. It is right! "You think it's cool to hate things. It's not. It's boring. Talk about what you love and keep quiet about what you don't." -Zibby from "Liberal Arts". (Within the context of fun and hobbies and rambling, at least.) Also I love that Roland quote at 45:20.

[@BuppGuy]

Mike, you're right! I love Raging Swan stuff as well. I'll have the players roll some dice at the beginning of the session that I'll use on tables like those. It still counts as "prep", and my players like that their dice rolls help set the scene

[@Aptianedicts]

You shouldn't assume that your audience is massively different from Bob's and the Professor's. I watched all three videos at the time

[@zachariasgrant5321]

Respect the Gunslinger quote

[@christofferbacka6597]

You are a great steward of TTRPGs!

[@peterterry7918]

When will the T-shirts saying "Mike, you're right!" become available for purchase?

[@stoloc1]

One thing I will disagree with is there is no wrong way to play and you somewhat touched on it with your statement that there are objectively bad game systems based on the destructive outlook of the creators. If the way a group is playing the game is objectively destructive and hateful to folks then you are doing it wrong.

[@SlyFlourish]

I agree.

[@macoppy6571]

The WotC C-suite does not discount the value of this poll. Neither should we in the TTRPG community. Thank you, Bob, PDM, and Sly Flourish 👍

[@Wraithing]

14:30 😂😂🤣🤣 Some days I'm that guy. Not every day, but… 🐟 BTW - thanks for reminding us about the GM Tips. I'm not on the X/Twitter thing, but I am a patron and hadn't noticed this content. There's so much on there. I must explore more. lol - back to my cave!

[@willmendoza8498]

Love the stewardship section here

[@charlescarpenter9098]

Personally, I think the new player's experiences are even more important to the hobby than the veterans. If newbies don't enjoy it, they don't stay, and the community doesn't grow. In order to flourish, every hobby needs new players to join to replace those that leave.

[@scottshinners6407]

Thanks!

[@dungeondr]

You were only half right. You were right, and so were we.

[@loweskyrosario]

Mike your right! (Couldn't resist!) But Wow...never thought about it...hate to bring it up again, but the OGL and charging 3rd party for 5E use...this is a backdoor way to do it!!! WOW; we are paying them to use Kobold Press or Ghost fire gaming stuff anyway, so they are getting their cut...well played WoTC

[@emessar]

Mike, you're right! But to be fair, I've had the same feeling since Tivo. Wait, you want me to buy this plus there's a subscription? What happens if the company goes under? Will I even be able to use this thing? (I never bought a Tivo)

[@cernunnos_lives]

I'm so glad you guys are vocal and telling the rest of us about what's on D&D beyond. I'll never join again. But I'll probably sign up on a competitor site. WoTC has become a despised company. Just ask any MTG fan. They're not just run by business. But scumbaggary.

[@RichardtheregularDM]

Mike, you're absolutely right about everything. Thanks.

[@russellparker5043]

I’m also pretty sure that they’re never gonna make the PDS downloadable… They are actively moving towards the model of holding you hostage to your subscription… I think that’s a very conscious and deliberate choice on their part

[@drewenders150]

Great video!

[@blindfreak01]

Great show once again, a highlight of my week for sure. How much overlap is there between Raging Swan's Wilderness Dressing and The Dreadthingonomicon? Some of the the section headings are the same or similar but they may cover different aspects. I own The Dreadthingonomicon and Dungeon Dressing so just wondering if the Wilderness Dressing would be a good addition to round out my world building tools.

[@phil6186]

Yeah! Lasers&Feelings!

[@reddburg]

I'm of the opinion that you should buy physical copies (or PDFs) first & only pick up a digital copies/tools when you need it. For my games I want to get back to using pen & paper (or txt files) partly because building homebrew into any of the digital tools is extra work & is often wonky/difficult.

[@ChurroMaster]

Mike: Hey, WotC! It would be really cool if you did [thing]. *Freeze frame* Narrator: They didn't do that thing.

[@bucko7913]

Midgard is awesome!

[@michaeljpastor]

Mike, you're wrong! HARKing is presenting a hypothesis after the fact as a hypothesis held a priori, or before the research. If you're presenting a new hypothesis (i.e. asking a new question) you're actually doing the scientific method, which frequently generates more new questions than you had before the research. Keep asking the questions!

[@lonic123]

Thanks

[@SacchieILU]

I appreciate your section on stewardship. Not only was it a great topic in general, it helped me look inside. I have long been frustrated with many player's unwillingness to try anything outside of [insert system] since the TTRPG holds so many amazing things. And I have lost sight of that and become hostile to the [insert system] itself. What you said helped me realize how unhelpful and gatekeeping my way of discussing this is. So thank you.

[@nowayjosedaniel]

Counter argument - it is actually very healthy for the hobby for people to go hard against 5e dnd bc it is objectively inferior design & going hard for better designed games is EXTREMELY important bc every content creator focuses primarily on just d&d (mostly 5e). And no, Pathfinder (D&D) isnt a great alternative. It's (3.0) is honestly where you would START to talk about objective evidence of bad design. But BX/AD&D are old and there are games which have improved upon that without changing it too much. Without some argument on game design across different ttrpg's; the hobby is unhealthy. Just like how we MUST have dissent and debate in Science for it to thrive and be Science. Otherwise it becomes just corrupted anti-science groupthink or even worse - marketing for a few individual's personal profit. Otherwise WotC's profit-motive Marketing will just hurt the hobby as 5e monopolizes and stifles all creativity and alternatives

[@ScottBaker_]

Not sure I heard it in your analysis of the votes, but I wonder what the overlap of viewers is between Bob, PDM, and you. I know that I happened to see all 3 and took the survey after Bob's video. So the level of good vs bad only represents the new votes after each video.

[@AKNeal81]

@mike just got my hardcover Weird Wastelands with the softcover Weird Workbook and really like them! Do you have copies coming, and is there an episode on the books in the pipeline? Maybe speak to their(WebDm) decision to leave KZbin?

[@GibboFastpaws]

Mike, it's so nice to see you geek out about data science. It's a special occurrence when the professional technical skills are applied to passion-filled hobby space, and the clouds open and biblically accurate celestials start singing "BE NOT AFRAID".

[@duncandomey8199]

Yes! More!

[@DanSolo41]

Well crap. So now, to finish my Descent into Avernus or Wild Beyond the Witchlight, I can't do that, unless I contact customer support. It was already a shitty move, but I could have sworn I could still get the discount automatically the day it came out. Now they've enshittified that by at least 50%.

[@johnmickey5017]

How likely were you to do that? 10? 50%?

[@DanSolo41]

@@johnmickey5017 Would be 50, but is currently closer to 10 because of budgeting reasons.

[@zhornlegacy7936]

18:51 It matters because as long as the people who made those decisions are still able to make decisions at the company, there is zero point in lending any degree to trust to the company as a whole. The comments on AI art, pinkertons, and OGL will (and should) be hammered against them again and again because it is important for hasbro and wotc to understand those types of practices will never be welcomed, never be forgiven, never be forgotten, and always leave the company wounded.

[@toddpickens]

I'm a big opponent of the use of D&D beyond for these and other reasons. My primary issue is that it fosters mental laziness, and a lack of real understanding of the game. This can be said of any similar online tool for pretty much any RPG game. But since we're talking about Wizards.. The obvious real world corollaries are cell phones and GPS maps. Believe it or not there was a time when we kept dozens of numbers in our head, and could navigate across the country by reading signs or a paper map. I'm thankful that I grew up in a time where all that was available were the books. I used to be able to tell you exactly what page to turn to in the player's handbook or DM's manual for any given reference. This is the way I've introduced my nephew to the game.

[@milah_lilah]

mike! you were right

[@zionich]

I feel like you might have inadvertently answered your question. Now people can't pay for the Dnd 2024 parts that they do want, now we have to buy the whole book.

[@Shattered_Entertainment]

this is y i do scans of my books for digital use

[@mechanussunrise]

Watch out they may send the Pinkertons after you

[@aristospagang2446]

*enshittification intensifies*

[@aristospagang2446]

reminder that Blackrock & Vanguard own Hasbro

[@pdubb9754]

I'm struggling to find Regnum Ratus. When I search for it, the link shows "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below." Veteran membership

[@SlyFlourish]

Try using a different browser on a different platform. Sometimes android phones have trouble downloading PDFs from Amazon S3

[@pdubb9754]

@@SlyFlourish On a laptop. Same message in Chrome or Edge.

[@jeaugust]

I've gotta say, removing the a la carte purchase feature on dndbeyond is destroying such a massive candle for me. It's the thing that's finally pushed me to try to figure out how to successfully run my characters on paper sheets. As so many people have pointed out, removing a la carte purchasing will only lose them money as long as homebrew is still enabled. I deeply fear that this is foreshadowing for homebrew to be removed or have its price hiked to the moon. Either way, removing this means that I basically won't ever buy anything on dndbeyond again (as a la carte is the only way I bought things previously). The enshittification of dndbeyond has properly begun.

[@nicksgamegrotto]

They (dndbeyond) had access to the character json data that could be easily read by 3rd party tools. They removed that from the platform first. It will not get better.

[@LegioXDivum]

Wizards could try and pull purchased content off D&D beyond, but it would open them up to litigation in the EU where consumer laws are tighter. That's why Volo and Mordenkeins are still on the site if you've bought them, and that's why they threw in customer support work around

[@TomDarlington]

How do you effectively navigate your pdf library

[@russellparker5043]

Doesn’t wizards of the Coast own D&D beyond? Unless I have their wrong they’re not so much dependent on them as just an appendage of wizards

[@Giantstomp]

You're right, there will be a large section of the fan base that is unaffected, I'd say about 70% to 80%, but there will be 30% to 20% that will have very strong feelings because role-playing to that % is part of their core identity. One of the reasons that % refuses to let it go, and will hold Hasbro's feet to the flame, is because this is something that is very dear to them. Unlike simply choosing one brand over another when it comes to food an clothing and other industries, D&D is hardwired into most gamers. What happened recently has forced that % to reevaluate their hobby, and their passion that portion of the gamers will remain angry until much more time has passed or they age out of relevance. That being said, the whole industry is going to get set on its head as soon as the viable AI DM's come online.

[@trystongilbert1837]

Man, that comment about Fateforged.... I tried that groups other game, Shadows of Esteren, and I'm just not sure they know how to write for game masters. The fiction is so dense that if your players don't read the whole book they really don't know how to play characters in that world, and there's no explanation for how the monsters work so good luck making anything of your own.

[@lucamonticelli267]

11:05 rather that they can do it because other are doing it is more that they have the luxory of not doing it wile others don't. In a market where 5e corners 80+% of the space other companies have to offer lots of serivice to retain buyers, wile WorC will always have the privilege of removing previus avilabe features and generally be anti consumer since they know buyers will always ever come back.

[@Tomeroche]

They shut it off because they're greedy, they realized that they weren't selling the whole book anymore because a good chunk of the playerbase only likes small parts of or sections of it, rather than seeing that as a reason to make the rest of the book better they force you to now buy the bad along with the good.

[@Hot_Dice]

Anyone who knows the history of wizards and TSR has been disposed against wizards for a long time now.

[@OMEGAJOENOVA]

Yep, I was on the fence about D&D Beyond but now I'm definitely not buying anything else from them.

[@SJH2]

Been on the internet long enough to also realize that most “respondents” are also the most negative minded percentage of the group, and most likely that the non-respondents are largely more positive about DnD’s future and their view of WOTC

[@johnmickey5017]

There was 0 chance that an opt-in survey, advertised by influential media figures, would reflect anything except what that narrow audience asks for and is told. There is no meaningful correlation between the responding audience and WotC’s overall customer base. “What do you think of ?” “We love them!” Said no self-selected internet poll ever.

[@theJoPanda]

Actually I believe a mass email from dndbeyond to all would have been representative. I do believe their core audience has intense passion and thus were more a)informed b)logically insulted and c)emotionally betrayed. Thus the results go a bigger direction. Also, the main passionate chunk of people probably do a ton of education of those events to detached neutral players.

[@johnmickey5017]

What is the conversion rate for DND Beyond micro-purchases to full books? “We’ll honor the deal, just send us a message” is reasonable customer service. Considering the near release of 5.5, this move makes sense. WotC should prefer to sell complete products instead of pieces. When DND Beyond launched, it was supplemental licensing income for books that had already had wide distribution. Now it is a central distribution system, and the needs have changed.

[@phrogprince2223]

Does any other company allow for ala cart purchases from their major hardback books? I don't feel that they took anything away from anyone. They stopped selling a product - those who purchased the product still have access to it. That said, it is a good reminder that as Mike said - you don't own digital products you buy - including any video game you've purchased through Steam, Amazon videos, etc. etc.

[@SlyFlourish]

I own my PDFs and my big JSON file full of licensed 5e material.

[@davidrempel4862]

Fantasy grounds. Lifetime license. Local copies. On my hard drive. Subscriptions and centralized web stuff is for suckers.

[@theJoPanda]

I am super intrigued to make the move indeed too

[@rynowatcher]

I think it is a bit hyperbolic to say the people who do not participate the the surveys are sitting in a cave. The majority of thed&d audience (based on sales of books as compared to those that fill out the surveys) is silent. Even the playtest had a lower response as the playtest went on.

[@flanf]

Mike, you were wrong! ... NOT! ;)

[@chadwickerman]

I've been saying it for awhile now. Stop playing digitally, online, with digital "tools." Play the game like it's supposed to be played; in person, face to face. Get out of your comfort zone, go outside, meet people IRL, start real face to face groups. The games are so, so, so much better and memorable and engaging in person than any online game listening to squawky potato mics and bad cameras or no cameras at all, sitting in your room squinting at a computer screen.

[@kafka0622]

I really like Bob but I question his decision to publish Delve with a ShadowDark version. ShadowDark has not really shown that is will be a major player in the TTRPG world and it seems a really big risk. It could well end up being a flash in the pan. If he had done a Cypher version I would have certainly backed the project but Cypher is a mature, established project.

[@reneesteeves3698]

question it for what reason? Cypher has been around longer sure, but for an indy rpg progect, the Arcane Library managed to raise over 1.3 million from over 13k backers, and it delivered a very well run campaign. Just type in ShadowDark into the kickstarter search engine and see how many 3rd party creators are making zines and modules for it. As well, 2023 Gencon saw less than 10 ShadowDark games being run, but now already for this year there are 42 shawdow dark games being run!! that's only 6 less than Cypher System games. So not doing too badly for it's first year

[@matthewtopping]

Conversion from 5e to Shadowdark is trivially easy. Also Shadowdark has a lot of community engagement at the mo. I run a group of 120 IRL gamers, nobody has ever run a cypher game, despite me trying to encourage it.

[@mechanussunrise]

Maybe he likes ShadowDark more

[@matthewtopping]

26:11 interesting but unsurprising how negative the Professor Dungeon Master viewers are. Pretty much the only reason to watch him these days is if you want so something juicy (and fictional) to be mad at WotC about.

[@mithren86]

The thing I didn't love from DND beyond was the automatic preference to not sell my data wasn't turned on after wotc. bought DND beyond. I had to go hunt it down in preferences.