d e g e n e r a c y

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A provocative investigation into the impact of transgression for transgression's sake in a Contemporary Art landscape tainted by the lack of Aesthetic standards and by the hijacking of Art by Hyper Modernity, Consumer Culture, AI and Capitalism.
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[@TheCinemaCartography]

"The tragic and crucial difference is that if art can stimulate emotions and ideas, mass-appeal cinema, because of its easy, irresistible effect, extinguishes all traces of thought and feeling irrevocably. People cease to feel any need for the beautiful or the spiritual, and consume films like bottles of Coca-Cola." - Andrei Tarkovsky

[@antoinepetrov]

The idea of the video is okay, and I agree with this quote (as well as everything else Tarkovsky has said) but I think the final result here just shows that you should've sticked to film analysis.

[@TheAnadrome]

@@antoinepetrov I respectfully disagree. They are pointing towards meaning and the loss of it, the reduction of everything to the commercialized propagandized whims of the individual. John Vervake calls this the Meaning Crisis. And whether in art or film the issues are essentially the same.

[@rabiscoebarulho8332]

This video definition of "The great horrors" actually portraits anti-communist propaganda. While criticizing Capitalism and Media, you drink from its poision. Thanks Socialism for the possibility of founding art beyond de market interests, and Soviet Tarkovsky for this quotation

[@TheAnadrome]

@@rabiscoebarulho8332 And thanks Soviets, for the millions upon millions of deaths, tortures, exiles, etc. I'm writing from the country of Georgia, and yes while the Soviets did do some good things, no one should ever trust this murderous ideology again. Or do my friends here with many stories of repression and death count for nothing in the quest for a perfect world?

[@Michelle_Wellbeck]

@@TheAnadrome the nebulous term "meaning" carries a lot of things unsaid. It ignores that meaning isn't only created societally, it is equally created individually. Usually "loss of meaning" refers to when we supposedly had "meaning" in the past. It therefore is alluding to a lost way of life that's no longer possible because of material reasons, like living in tight communities in the countryside and the belief in god.

[@vitradesk]

definitely expected "degeneracy," as a designation, to be used ironically here :/

[@daniel-ht4gu]

i thought the same thing, if it werent from the comments i was assuming i was high out of my mind and misunderstanding what i was hearing.

[@rodrigomachado5291]

So you are a degenerate who wants pandering to degeneracy. 😢

[@OceanFlan]

Why are you defending degeneracy?

[@eudidjen3083]

😂 cry more, DEGENERATE

[@jafeelme8995]

The trash art is essential. It represents the spirit of a culture. Our time is being captured appropriatley. Only when the spirit of the culture changes will the art change to match it.

[@TheBoboSamurai]

You aren't wrong! I think the message this video was trying to convey was that art and culture are in a feedback loop. If our times are to change with intention, perhaps we need more intention towards stewardship in our art.

[@PimpleJThomas]

OK, Hegel.

[@liltick102]

Fine.

[@canti7951]

Even then, I think it's lazy to chalk it up to "cultural degeneration". One of the problems of this video is how much it props up a "return to tradition", classic works of art. In tandem with it, they lazily criticize modern culture (phone bad, big pharma, pop bad). While somewhat understandable, this is just reactionary bs right wingers also love to parrot (im not saying theyre right wing).

[@theodorekaczynski8147]

Trash society produces trash art, thereby spreading and cementing trash society as any society’s art does. It is not essential, it is a self fulfilling product

[@carmina-solis]

can i recommend jacob geller’s essay “Who’s Afraid of Modern Art” in this trying time?

[@the_Fisher_King]

Or Patricia taxxon's, how right-wing views art

[@alejotinganell5653]

Jacob's video is outstansing. It has none of the propagandistic crap of this but all of the rich insightful analysis. Also, Jacob is really hardorking! ❤️

[@RaymondoPerson]

"discard this form of propaganda and replace it with this other form of propaganda"

[@alejotinganell5653]

@@RaymondoPerson Jacob Geller? Propaganda? What? 😭

[@jefferykirschner8816]

Geller*

[@rightonrightonrighton]

Sad because I remember CC's video on Cowboy Bebop saying "There is no heirarchy to art".

[@krunkle5136]

There should at least be technical competence or at least under the hood.

[@rightonrightonrighton]

@@krunkle5136 wym?

[@krunkle5136]

@@rightonrightonrighton well certainly any art made by someone dishonest or lacking in skill or dedication isn't worth anyone's time. It's always more beautiful to see masters play around with an extensive knowledge.

[@rightonrightonrighton]

@@krunkle5136 depends. It's all in the eye of the beholder and all art is contextual :)

[@krunkle5136]

@@rightonrightonrighton sure, though I think art should never be consumed without thinking at least in passing the artist, their tendencies, the process, and stories behind the process. Otherwise it's just consuming mindlessly.

[@xaliantox]

Ever since your video of "Art is not for Sale" essay, I've always before and afterwards understood yours or this channels frustration with how Art, Artistic Merit, and the creative process is treated and commodified and perverted for capital in todays world. I still feel this way. But my conclusions never came to something even close to the type of rhetoric this channel has been putting out. It almost baffles me how your conclusions seem to slowly shift towards parroting fascist traditionalist rhetoric, that tows the line between conservatism, something that is very much the antithesis of art, free thinking, and out of the box ideas (hence the word conserve, to conserve the past). These worrying trends you complain about all seem to throw the ills onto society and the pitfalls we've all faced due to the much larger and greater forces out there that we cannot control. And to touch on that, I think you fault your fellow man too much, and expect the worst when it comes to the ideals and desires of another person. It is the powers that govern society that often bring on these ills that you complain about. And the "degeneracy" you speak of, sometimes is a way for said society to react to, and fight back against those powers. Art in it of itself is expressive and provocative, and very much pushes boundaries like you said. Art in essence must be degenerate in the eyes of few, or many, to say something. I just don't understand what your problem here is, other than parroting shallow talking points that are constantly churned out by Roman Statue profile pics all over social media. At this point I don't see things changing for this channel. So maybe just rename it to "The Retvrn to Tradition" with some cross emoji and call it a day already.

[@Ottrond]

It's maddening lmao The only powerful person featured in the video is Stalin. They were very quick to denounce "utopia" as modernity's first mistake and then went on to blame postmodern scholars for the current state of media landscape. Not one mention of those who own the media, but nonstop examples of how damaging the media has become. Not one mention towards the tension between art and profit. Then they wrap up by telling the audience that individual responsibility is the way to go. "Go and educate yourself, for the children. Please don't listen to kpop." They're competent editors, and the absence of frames featuring the faces of billionaires when talking about the modern media can't be anything other than a conscious choice.

[@xaliantox]

Yea...it really baffles me. Especially like I said going back to the commodification of art video this channel put out a while ago. It feels so reactionary and honestly morally / ethically confused on the channels part to go from that to these talking points, and the aforementioned that you said in your comment...which sucks...I really liked this channel. Funny enough I ended up watching a video named "Is the Cinema Cartographer Fascist?" After he dropped that "Illusion of Progress" video essay, that ended up raising my eyebrow on a lot of questionable takes and conclusions he made there. Then I watched that recommended video and STILL tried to give this channel the benefit of the doubt since I respected their earlier works so much. I figured maybe it was a fluke in thinking or that's not really what they wanted to get across in the end. But nope. I think it might be gg after this one lol. A shame really cause I loved this channel and the thoughts and ideas and media it brought out into the KZbin space, and inevitably in Leftist discussion. To me it feels so contradictory to advocate for art and the creative process with such vitriol, without acknowledging things like you've said, and then to preach the idea of returning to more traditional roots, feels like the very antithesis of what makes art art. And why art is so important. Bleh I dunno. Meh...well if you're interested here's the video I got recommended by Germinal "Is the Cinema Cartographer Fascist?" its a bit long but, interesting. Even more so now that this new video is out lol. Give it a watch or skim through it if you're interested. Just wish whoever runs this acct doesn't go down this path but its outta my control I guess lmao. kzbin.info/www/bejne/j3iTdJR_h5uoi5I @@Ottrond

[@mellow_8152]

Hey, thank you for your comment! You perfectly put into words what felt off about this video.

[@marcogianesello6083]

Anybbody who thinks they have the right, or should be given the right, to determine what political affiliation art is meant to serve or should be boiled down to, is a filthy ideologue whose only reason for not being out in the streets burning books is that they were born in a society that doesn't allow their self righteous, self important, pseudo intellectual ego mania to do more damage than the bare minimum. And recycling buzzwords from equally pseudo intellectual babble in order to label people in a way that's comfortable to you is nothing but that. You lack actual arguments that are not poisoned by the idelogical cancer you have duped yourself into priding yourself over, and this is the result. Pathetic.

[@snorpy]

Most of art produced throughout history has served a sacred and/or communitarian function. The modern conception of art as being principally a vehicle for the self expression of an individual, though a valid and valuable framework, is only one window through which to understand art. As such, I fail to see how your viewpoint is any less rigid or ideological.

[@andred4473]

I subscribed to this channel way back around the time their Taxi Driver analysis videos were posted, the irony of seeing them become Travis Bickle is disheartening. You not only gaze solely into the abyss, you let the abyss stare back! I hope for the day y’all can acknowledge the spectrum and capacity of a teenager enjoying both Tarkovsky’s Stalker and Sam Raimi’s Spider-Man 3 and even fathom these 2 titles being in the same sentence without losing merit for one’s intelligence. I’m sure my uncivilized use of the word “y’all” is too transgressive and post-modern to meet the standards of what this channel has become, but I beg you to avert your eyes out of your copy of Dostoevsky’s Notes from the Underground and look outside the cave. Here is a channel that would not take it anymore. Here is a channel who stood up against the scum, the c*nts, the dogs, the filth, the shit. Here is a channel who stood up! 👏

[@krunkle5136]

Travis wasn't wrong, but he went about things in a reckless way.

[@MulticolouredMirrors]

This comment sums up how I was feeling while watching this video. Thank you!

[@robert.mercer294]

Very well worded. Thank you. I am disheartened to watch this channel become a bed for Petersonite chuds on a fast slope into religious fascism.

[@thefebo8987]

People like you are the fuel for cynics. Comparing Spiderman 3 to a tarkovsky movie is absurd and distructive in the worst way. Enjoyment today is always comidification. Looking away will not solve anything.

[@TheAnadrome]

Replies like this seem to have a lot of density to them, and not the good kind. Just say you don't know what they are talking about. Accusation is the refuge of the ignorant.

[@SeriousxSniper]

Crazy to see this channel go off the deep end, they became the villains. Maybe they should rewatch taxi driver

[@Dorakskel]

I know where you are coming from with this but I think you might fail to see the insane degree to which this absolutely resonates strongly among the general population. To a person who is not terminally online many changes going on in the world are absolutely inconceivable, it doesn't make them conservative. This channel and the people responsible for it have made a life out of viewing beautiful things from the past and have come to notice a lack of that beauty in their own modern life and a video like this seems to me to be a very natural outgrowth of such a feeling.

[@squigglyarmz197]

@@Dorakskel the reason it resonates with the general population is because they're terminally online, the only people who think the world is inconceivably ugly aesthetically are the ones terminally online obsessed with it. Kinda a funny bit of projection and irony in your comment, most don't realize or want to admit their worldview is mostly shaped by social media and media in general, mine included probably but I try to get out I live in a beautiful place. They complain about tic toks and Twitter posts not even going outside to see the beauty in the world or ignoring the real suffering and ugliness that is happening all the time in the real world. The strange priorities and concerns of the terminally online, real grass is at least within walking distance for most in western society...

[@therupoe]

this channel has been vacuous since the beginning

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

@@squigglyarmz197 "They complain about tic toks and Twitter posts not even going outside to see the beauty in the world" - What makes you think that they don't go outside to enjoy nature? They can do that and still be concerned for the world around them, caused by a sick cabal. Eventually, unless they take a stand, the world encrouches upon them. How many teens growing up and modelling themselves upon 'Scarface' and 'The Wolf of Wall Street', before they destroy you community.

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

@@therupoe Just like your comment.

[@happyhunterfish]

I can agree to the idea that as art has become a hobby of the masses, it has become consumerized. And in that we've often being offered art on merits of novelty and easy, shallow appeal that comforts us with predictable tropes and formulas over challenging experiences that cause us to grow. However I disagree with some things the video implies or states (to me) 1. Showing images of modern art as representatives of degeneracy and older styles when talking about a return to something better. However, even in an era of novelty and formulas, is there less sublime art now? I would say no. That very phenomena of consumerism now provides support and access to new, exciting artists from all over the world, that in the old world would have remained in obscurity. If by nothing else, then by distance. 2. The idea that because such degenerations exist, they must be inherent to the nature of modern art, which is why we must return to old ways. But i reject that it is inherent. Only that it is possibly more common. Which is also up to debate, because to me the shallow novelty of a bad modern piece is as empty in essence as a classical painting that might have been done with craftsmanship, but is a product commissioned by a aristocrat and only succeeds in copying the most generic formulas of the time. No ideas of its own, just skilled use of brush. But just like these examples don't make the art from this era inherently soulless, neither do bad examples of modern art. It is possible to at the same time break all formulas and rules AND not leave it at that, but also add a depth of expression. 3. The idea that craftsmanship has an inherent artistic value. Craftsmanship is only a tool for creative expression. It is of no value without an idea to be conveyed with. Meanwhile the idea has a value of its own, which doesn't necessarily need craftsmanship to convey. For example the worlds greatest forger is a master in his craft, but his creations have no substance, as they do not contain an idea. Just like an AI that make a very well built picture. And to me as art is forever in flux without permanent rules and values, like it never has been, I'd consider the hegelian view to be the appropriate one. That the answer is never rejecting the new and embracing the old, but the over enthusiasm for new for its own sake and the kneejerk reaction to the new with the desire to deny it all and go back coming together in synthesis and creating a completely new path that takes from both.

[@decimusanothos5178]

Expertly put

[@anastasiakesky]

Bravo.

[@CarlosVixil]

Excellent writing here, a nice refresh

[@calebh7507]

Really great writing! I enjoyed reading this and totally agree as an artist myself in the discourse you raise

[@AfutureV]

They kind of are inherent to modern art, because it's foundations not only permit it but encourage it. What would you say is inherent to modern art if not that core idea of challenging conversions, which includes aesthetic beauty? Craftsmanship has an observable and self-evident value to people. To pretend otherwise is to deny a fundamental aspect of humanity that is to be in awe of seeing people excel at their craft and push it to the highest level. I would be hard pressed to call anything in existence "of no value".

[@moomin2162]

The Cinema Fascist? As a German who is interested in history, I know by whom the word "degenerate" was used in the past. Of course, we must fight against corporate art, the fist of capitalism closing in around the media we consume. But we must not dwell in a romanticized past, that never existed. Art was always an elitist medium, arguably now less than ever before. We must not fall into an abyss of cultural pessimism. In 50 years, we won't remember the sea of meaninglessness, but we will remember the many great works of art produced every day. It was always like this. And of course we must fight capitalism and build a free society, for many other reasons as well.

[@krunkle5136]

There's certainly an element of the negative effects of global trade (localist capitalism is fine), and I think much of the bad culture we see today is a result of people trying to make universalist statements, and there being effectively no longer a local art culture that the serious people in a society take seriously. The internet has also made much of the trash more visible unfortunately. Read "The Cult of the Amateur".

[@krolikthemself]

"le degeneracy bad cause le porn addiction!!!!!!"

[@imsmokey4331]

Im dumb and not knowledgeable so maybe i shouldnt speak. But the difference between back then and now is that art is now about degeneracy and criticising attention and all that stuff but back then (idk what time back then is) even tho there was degeneracy the art was about it inspiring stories about heroism chivalry stoicism whatever and to me a movie about a man overcoming adversity in his life is more effecting (or affecting idk which word) is than a movie about how degenerate he is. Also i watch some movies and i barely see movies doing that anyway but i ‘think’ this shown more in art painting and stuff. Also also the main difference to me is because of how they approach the subject just simply throwing a banana on a wall and saying its meaningful cuz ppl will give it attention n pay money n thats why were all degens is just not as affecting (pr effectjng) as a meaningful painting to show how we overcome the degeneracy. Also also also i guess im just against nihilism. Anyway thats my tedtalk i dont know anything about the art painting world so im probably wrong

[@arthropleura1075]

godwin's law

[@arthropleura1075]

@@krolikthemself very unsurprising that someone with youtube uploads like yours would type out a comment like this lol

[@yidavv]

I agree with a lpt od the criticism. But i feel like there is a blind nostalgia for how art was in the past. Nowadays art is more widespread and not only for the elites which changes things. Lets not pretend like average peasants back i the day cared much for the art of the time. It was made for and by the elite Average people were just as bad as we are nowadays. They werent any better in their tastes or had any moral standard

[@aallerton]

Speaking very generally, avrerage people - at least in the Polish countryside, where I originate from (Im sticking to what I feel I'm more familiar with) tended to be MUCH worse, even a mere century ago. Of course it is also about the oppressive reality they lived with and tons of generational trauma, but, well... it is a complex topic.

[@TheAnadrome]

But do to effects of media everything is amplified. The good we could do... and certainly the stupidity and evil. Charges of elitist nostalgia have no teeth anymore.

[@malicewonder8345]

"Average people were just as bad as we are nowadays. They weren't any better in their tastes or had any moral standard" Also they weren't able to demonstrate their stupidity immediately and worldwide.

[@chillsoft]

This is an interesting comment. You mean to say that since people are basically "peasants" (with all that connotates), the art will reflect that?

[@krunkle5136]

Elite art before modern culture, irony and technology (esp AI or filters), was always better as it expressed higher values and searched for standards of beauty that weren't individualistic.

[@iamamaniaint]

Remember how Travis Bickle hated the filth and scum of the city at night, yet that was when he worked most often? Interesting that...

[@robert.mercer294]

I came here years ago to find people uplifting art I didn’t know about or didn’t appreciate enough. Sad to see where this channel has gone in the last year.

[@iamamaniaint]

@@robert.mercer294 yeah like wtf is this? I don't suffer from any of these concerns, you know why? I don't have tiktok. If I have a problem with something I don't interpret it as some grand narrative on the decline of decent society, I just don't consume it. Bad art is easily avoidable. This is such a bafflingly toxic take. It reads as refined propaganda.

[@vkk2040]

​@@robert.mercer294I haven't seen anything like this in the last year honestly,only this video seems to be the first thing

[@robert.mercer294]

@vkk2040 I got an inkling of it in the illusion of progress and everything is dying but it wasn’t as pronounced as here. It was still just something I was willing to write off as an undercurrent of bitterness- but this was definitely not an undercurrent.

[@neuroprodukt]

I've had the feeling that Channel Criswell has always been, at least partially, an intellectually dishonest grifter. Almost every single time video focuses on personal opinions decorated with a thesaurus, as opposed to genuine attempts to engage with written sources, books, studies, academic articles etc, research beyond just their own preconceived notions - you know, what professional film scholars and critic are supposed to do. Meanwhile, what's always been present on the channels, even since day one, was the narcissistic conviction that their opinions are the most valuable and unique, don't need to be challenged or second guessed in any way - and often don't even have to be supported by good arguments. For instance, look at the channel description - "inspiring new ways of seeing art", aspirations to "promote critical thinking". If that was the mission statement, then the video fails at that. So much more time is spent at manufacturing their own identity (by proxy of orbiting some great artists from the history of film etc) as opposed to actual critical analysis and engaging with ideas and research. It's not enlightening, its obfuscation for the sake of profilicity. Get off your high horse. Most of the content here is just little montages of some of your favorite movies. That's perfectly fine, just don't get so conceited about it. Attacking things you haven't even tried to understand is just shallow and cringy. No amount of cynically hiding it behind Tarkovsky quotes will change that.

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

"Attacking things you haven't even tried to understand" - your comment is entirely lacking in the very same things you chide.

[@neuroprodukt]

@@user-pi8qw9jj7h how so?

[@BloodylocksBathory]

Have a care, for obsessing over art-forms of the past can paralyze expression and prioritize tradition over growth. The Third Reich fetishized "classical" art to the point of becoming kitsch. And after all, they labeled all modern and experimental art as degenerate.

[@krolikthemself]

THIS CHANNEL WENT FROM ACTUALLY FREE ARTISTERY TO PURE COPIUM IN ONE VIDEO probs a april's fool joke

[@axxa5000]

Godwin's law

[@egrytznr8893]

@@axxa5000 you're using that phrase wrong that doesn't apply here, commenters on this video made these connections on their own from the start without lengthy discourse beforehand. Kinda points to it being a problem with the ideology portrayed in this video specifically and not the ideas of the commenters. It doesn't matter what side people land on when they go mask off, if someone makes apolitical content pretty much exclusively then suddenly goes mask off political (i.e. "the illusion of progress" and then this video) half the fans will get angry, feel betrayed, and unsubscribe, that's what's happening here. Who really cares anyway, this is KZbin, these are KZbinrs... need I say more?

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

Yes Jackon Pollack's splotches on a canvas or Tracy Ermin's unmade bed are pretty degenerate. As for "classical" you seem to not comprehend what the meaning of a classic is. Something that transcends time to be as rich today as the day it was first encountered. Your comment would make sense if it was, "Have a care, for obsessing over art-forms of the trendy present, they can blind you of the treasure trove of the past". Pauline Keal used "kitsch" and it was unbecoming of her.

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

@@krolikthemself There isn't any free artistry.

[@gab_gallard]

When they let Adolf the intern write the script of their videos:

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

And when they let Mr. Bean on a keyboard to make that statement.

[@gab_gallard]

@@user-pi8qw9jj7h I'll take that as a compliment of the highest order. Probably The Cinema Cartography is taking my comment as a compliment too.

[@le05003]

Don’t you mean to write in your natural language? I.e. baaa baaa baaa 🐑

[@gab_gallard]

@@le05003 You are such a good impersonator. I wonder why...

[@le05003]

@@gab_gallardsorry I don’t speak sheep, not sure what you’re saying

[@Ars_Fabula_TTRPG]

Art is always a reflection of the zeitgeist of the time in which it was created. To signify modern/commercial/pop art as degenerate is missing the point of the art entirely.

[@matsanw]

It's a mix of degeneracy and money laundering.

[@krunkle5136]

Art should also strive to create new/recycled aesthetics to direct the zeitgeist, not just record and reinforce it.

[@Dorakskel]

I very frequently see derisive comments like this without substantiating anything. Some food for thought.

[@axxa5000]

Sometime the society is sick and in cultural decline, hence the art being relfected is so poor in quality and beauty.

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

No it isn't. Some of it is. And that is the type that usually dates it very fast, so that you have to explain why it's important. The meaning of the work can be degenerate or the craft may be lacking, in composition, cutting or blocking.

[@whytewarsaw9214]

The same was said about renassaisance painters. Also there’s really cool art being sold for high value yr nitpicking. Amazing thought provoking art, music, movies are always being made and always will.

[@squigglyarmz197]

They ignore it all and only focus on the bad, I heard them say on their podcast " oh something has to have been around for like a decade before we can really critique it" or something like that, I think that's just an excuse to keep ignoring true art in the present and put in as little effort as possible in their work. They keep saying they are going to release "art", I haven't seen it yet, maybe they're jealous of modern true art because they can't accomplish it themselves?

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

@@squigglyarmz197 There is so much hyperbole around from studios, crooked or twisted critics who will give a free pass to their favoured auteurist directors, "the greatest living director", that people only form a good response after several years and all the hype has died down, and usually with several viewings in which they realize they've deceived themselves. As for "modern art", its usually laughed at by those who seek timeless art. Modern art, such a Pollack's dismal canvases or Tracy Ermin's unmade bed.

[@squigglyarmz197]

@@user-pi8qw9jj7h what mainstream critics think about films when they come out is irrelevant, I can see giving a film a couple months to sink in and giving it multiple viewings that's fine. *when I used the word modern I was only referring to art made in the present not the type of art it is.

[@squigglyarmz197]

@@user-pi8qw9jj7h when I think of great art in the present I think of artists like Killian Ing, great film in the present I think of filmmakers like Yargos Lanthimos. Of course those are just my preferences, there's plenty of others. Art is not dead like this channel likes to imply

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

@@squigglyarmz197 What is present? A week, a month, a year. Some kids won't watch anything that isn't "current", trendy.

[@swashyhimself]

The video doesn’t really explain where “post modern” art came from, it’s goals and why there’s such a gap between people’s sense of art and the art of transgression. It’s political.

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

It came from the tax-extempt foundations of the billionaire class. Its goals, as whistleblowers stated, was to remove culture and history from the mass. Go and read article, "The New Order of Barbarians" by Day.

[@humanwaveform]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6Cuemd9qdCprtU

[@johnblackman6523]

Its jewish

[@83j049733rfe4]

@@johnblackman6523 To hell with you.

[@lcatalamusic]

That's an... oddly reactionary essay coming from The Cinema Cartography. Like really, we're doing the "transgression is all well and good for the select enlightened few, but the uneducated, naive lower classes need a rigid and constricting framework of traditional moral values in order to lead a good life" tired paternalistic bit?

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

"transgression is all well and good for the select enlightened few" Who said it was good for the few?

[@squigglyarmz197]

@@user-pi8qw9jj7hI can answer that: cinema cartography did. Geez, you're all over the comments section on some ADHD stuff. Maybe try actually engaging in discussion with someone?

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

@@squigglyarmz197 Not any ADHD stuff - I'm nutrient rich, just had time to support the video. I would have a debate, but most of the negative replies are Pavolvian responses.

[@alexanderstraight2604]

@@user-pi8qw9jj7h What do you think ADHD is?

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

@@alexanderstraight2604 ADHD is a pseudo ailment that's treated by pharmaceuticals that tranquilize (see 'Brave New World' for the reasons and celebrated award-winning BBC documentary film-maker Adam Curtis' series 'The Century of the Self' about how the AMA convened a meeting to relabel everyday emotions, such as boredom or anxiety giving a speech, as disorders). There are two elements to it, the relabeling of normal emotions and a second one of a deficiency of vitamins (especially the Bs, and d3, k2) and minerals (magnesium, zinc, copper, minerals). Those used to be in foods but the fast food and processed foods of today lack them altogether.

[@incoher]

cinemacartography conservative arc?!

[@alexhardy13]

When being against pedos = being conservative... What a time to be alive

[@incoher]

@@alexhardy13 neither the video nor my comment is supposing that.

[@Shtrepstra]

Conservative is by definition something that values "the old" rather than "the new" but the postmodern "rule breaking" and "redefining" culture is already 50-60 years old, so being tired of it in the 2nd decade of the 21st century is actually more "progressive" than repeating the same old narrative for half a century now. Getting back to classics is far more refreshing and innovative in my opinion than the good ol' canvas splatting and accusing everyone they can't appreciate it because they don't understand modern art.

[@matsanw]

You don't need to be conservative to see how art turned into trash, though it makes it easier to comprehend the issue.

[@incoher]

@@matsanw “all art today sucks a little more than it used to” is an indefensible position when art is an inherently progressive/transgressive force. don’t get jaded if you can help it

[@user-wn5gj8em1g]

Few decades from now we won't remember all the mediocrity, we will remember the profound. We remember masterpiece paintings of the past, regardless of how much more paintings were boring embellished portraits. We remember great plays but not traveling circus performances. If I'm correct, art will persist, if I'm not then art never mattered that much.

[@TheVelvetTV_Riesenglied]

we remember the Mona Lisa despite the lack of profoundness.. because some art critic had a fetish, then it got stolen and then another artist paid homage in his own works, not because of it outstanding profoundness

[@matsanw]

You're right. We just happen to be in the downfall period.

[@user-wn5gj8em1g]

@TheVelvetTV_Riesenglied It's pretty regardless. And even if painting itself isn't that special, the narrative we invented around it is

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

@@user-wn5gj8em1g No, the narrative around it means nothing, the essentials of it;s truth mean everything. That's why "It's a wonderful Life" is profound and timeless.

[@GiulianaBruna]

I´m so happy reading the comments, glad that im not the only one that felt displeased by the video.

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

Yes, nothing must disturb your virtue-seeking self-delusion. Always comfortable in group-think so that cult thinking remains.

[@poggywoggy1999]

@@user-pi8qw9jj7h meds NOW!!!!

[@le05003]

@@user-pi8qw9jj7h 💯 she wants to be reassured in her slave morality and herd thinking

[@le05003]

So happy to learn that you’re part of a herd of sheep aren’t you?

[@poggywoggy1999]

@@le05003 better a sheep than a wolf

[@ME-gs6yn]

You understand that you have often promoted works of art by directors that are widely considered to be ‘transgressive’, right? Seemingly with the understanding that transgression, or subversion of the norm is the way through the mainstream. It is the process by which we discover new artistic language to express ourselves. Which wouldn’t naturally lead on to the opinion that returning to ‘traditional’ standards of art (which themselves are plagued with cultural, racial, sexual and gender biases) would produce anything of substance that breaks away from the norm. If Bresson, or Tarr, or Tarkovsky had all taken the advice of this video, we’d be stripped of a world that produced work that will last for generations. They didn’t create their masterpieces by returning to traditional values, but rather transgressing the accepted practices of the day. I’m sure you are aware of that. And so I find it concerning that you discuss transgression by associating it with degeneracy. As a channel that is so heavily focused on art, you should be entirely aware of the groups that have both historically and contemporarily exploited that connection for incredibly insidious purposes. Playing with that connection at all demands of you a need for clarity in your application of it. Leaving it open, while showing overweight people, ethnic minorities and discussing people on welfare requiring the strictest of boundaries leaves a very unpleasant, fascist tinge to the video. Moreover, I find it bizarre that you take ‘mainstream’ acts and describe them as transgressive, when by their very absorption into the mainstream, they evidently fail to transgress anything. And they don’t appear to be attempting to do that either? A lot of the clips you included show pop groups or rap artists that aren’t really all that boundary pushing at all. What you give examples of, are largely consumer friendly products that are marketed by capitalist institutions. It’s just strange that you can see that a lot of modern offerings in the art world are vacuous, yet are unable to link that to capitalisms dilution of the practice as a whole. Instead, you seem to be implying that it is a moral and cultural failing that the individual is responsible for? Which, if that is the case, is pretty ridiculous.

[@malaksafa4074]

Ya, the videos of fat people and furrows and that harmless Hatsune miku cosplayer (among other things) really through me off. I feel like we need to learn to better understand the things that disgust us, instead of running away from them immediately.

[@wertherperiwinkle]

Robert Reid at the 1st international surrealist conference in London in the 1930s: "Let it be stated without further preface, classicism represents for us now and has always represented the forces of oppression. Classicism is the intellectual counter-part of political tyranny. The norms of classicism are the typical patterns of order, proportion, symmetry equilibrium, harmony and all of those are static and inorganic qualities. They are intellectual concepts which control and repress the vital instincts on which growth and therefore change depend."

[@radovansvarc1927]

Study old art. Then break its constraints. If someone calls your art degenerate, be wary of that person and proud of the art.

[@Ottrond]

What a telling choice to name the video like that, right?

[@eversonalmeida9866]

@@Ottrond indeed.

[@Dooger414]

If I p1ss on your canvas, I am challenging tradition of not only using paint but using my own canvas. If you get angry, others should be wary of your gatekeeping, as art is purely subjective and MY art is clearly to be admired for how it defies norms. Behold! My "Number 1" painting!

[@arms7260]

​@@Dooger414Absolutely vapid attempt at hyperbole. Well done

[@AfutureV]

What is the point of the study if the end goal is to break it? Some constraints are there for a reason. That last line sounds like being against the concept of criticism, as if your art should be above it, and all criticism is just reaffirmation.

[@costeauu]

so we just have to do the good art not the bad art, old art = good art, new art = bad art and degeneracy. If i do art you don't like i'm a degenerate, so i have to do the art you like, because you know what is the good art, your judging is immaculate and bulletproof, unlike the rest who are degenerates. This kind of argument is valid on 4 chan, not in real life i'm sorry, give this mess a second thought

[@mykalkelley8315]

Degenerate doesn't mean new, it is art that comes about from the decline of a culture. Its more so a symptom of decline rather than a cause. If you place a giant statue of a cock in the middle of a public space where children roam, or draw l*li hentai, then yeah..... Degen.....

[@krunkle5136]

Could you blame him with the current state of the film industry? It's being eaten alive by steaming services that flatten everything into an app experience, and the only big hitters have been just recycling old IPs and focusing on 'universes'.

[@treasey8655]

You really don't get what was said in this video and it amuses me to no end

[@costeauu]

@@treasey8655 sure buddy!

[@treasey8655]

@@costeauu They're arguing against meaningless transgression of norms instead of proper works of meaning and intent and you're like "naaaah i prefer a random blotch of paint on canvas!"

[@tangolettuce3538]

Y'all, this is just fascism. If you think that's too strong a word, at least take "reaction", but I can't not call it out. When I saw the title in my notifications I hoped it would be ironic/satirical, but alas. Admittedly, I haven't paid much attention to this channel since the end of the peak film video essay era on this site, so I don't know if this is a direction it's been heading in, and I don't particularly care to waste the time finding out, but it is immensely disappointing to see this from a channel I once found enlightening.

[@le05003]

Luckily no one cares what you think. Y'all...

[@mileshenryreloaded14.88]

>Y'all Stop reading there

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

Maybe you should stop watching and read books. The definition of fascism is Corporate control of the State. Nothing more, nothing less. That's from Mussolini.

[@arthropleura1075]

how are some people's education so bad they start throwing out words like "fascism" without knowing what they even mean

[@poggywoggy1999]

@@arthropleura1075 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art

[@J_God_Yamaxanadu]

There sure are a lot of comments along the lines of "umm, yikes [buzzword] much?" which I think nicely illustrates the danger of 'works devoid of meaning' sum enough empty experiences together and you can get a person devoid of meaning, too.

[@maitrang8760]

Ascribing contemporary art to degeneracy is traditional fascist rhetoric and indefenceable. To read all the criticism and only come to the conclusion that they are “devoid of meaning” displays ignorance on your part.

[@ed_merino]

I have to agree with the plethora of comments that notice the stench of conservatism in this piece. What the essay fails to mention is that many of the examples provided for “good” art where in fact incredibly transgressive on their time, and if it wasn’t by intellectuals that championed its transgression we wouldn’t herald those pieces as we do today. Also obviates that if you don’t seem to get what is a “transgressive” piece is supposedly reveling against that it must then be either transgressive for transgressiveness sake or out right empty of meaning, which won’t be always the case. And finally, the call for a return to “artistic standards” begs the question, who would set those standards? And who will be able to meet those standards and who won’t?

[@elianmusic7452]

Yes. Preach

[@hermetischism4671]

There's a difference between transgressive like Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and transgressive like Duct taping a banana to a wall. I think this video does a good job distinguishing between each. Your ability to rank art depends on how much you care about the art. There's a reason certain classics are held to such high esteem. All of those books were built atop a mountain of inspiration. People start from scratch today, thinking they're transgressive, when they're just parroting an old idea in a less meaningful way.

[@kcf1300]

Yes! Also, many of the examples of "degenerate" art that "don't explore the human condition", in fact, explore the human condition.

[@matsufotos]

Isn't the recultance to embrace convervatism and restraint exactly the point of the essay? If this video is stirring such backlash isn't that proving its point? The essay offers that if our society is degrading (which I believe most agree appears so) then isn't our artistic expressions also a reflection of that same degradation and the essay proposes the answer to the degradation is a return to more traditional notions on art, spirituality and life?

[@AfutureV]

Name one of those examples. A work shown in the video that was “incredibly transgressive”, but was presented as good art.

[@doodly1152]

Thank you for this video. The degenerates have been filtered.

[@AdachiVsLife]

When the worst of humanity is calling something bad, you know it's good.

[@kkickks]

you’re idiocy.

[@Restinsofa]

@TheCinemaCartography as a recommendation, why don't you add links to the references used?, like for example the thumbnail image of this video is an illustration done by Polish artist Aleksandra Waliszewska... Now I do not know if that image used has anything to do with transgressive movements but I'm fervent believer that documenting and giving credit when it's due is paramount and adds much more importance to any work presented to the public (and that of an essay)... Maybe you add all this information to your Patreon, but it's a shame that you cannot do it here too

[@eyesofnihility]

The vibes of this channel have been sus for a while now, glad people are finally coming around to it, although this time they definitely let the mask slip a little too far down

[@elianmusic7452]

yes. wtf did i just watch. And they mask this with so called intelligent rhetoric and pseudo deep voice over. Shame, their old videos were good.

[@Dooger414]

Heaven forbid you ever get confronted by someone with a viewpoint you do not share. You were very brave to post this comment expressing your unease. If it makes you feel better, I'm sure others will like and comment words to reassure you so that you may not be alone within your thoughts too long.

[@eyesofnihility]

@@Dooger414 Aint nothing novel about the sentiments being expressed in this vid pal, if we all wanted to hear this kinda drivel we’d scroll a Rome statue avatar account and watch a Jordan Peterson interview. To be frank the man is trite even when he’s saying things I don’t disagree with

[@barryoffeastenders]

What ‘vibes’ are they exactly?

[@user-rr5lj8nu3n]

@@eyesofnihility You seem hilariously stuck in your bubble for someone thats bashing conservatives

[@elianmusic7452]

3:58 this conclusion is a LEAP IN LOGIC. This is just how YOU FEEL about it, not what it is OBJECTIVELY. What about this do you fail to understand? Every single video touts the same crap, but do you not see the funny here? This is all from your own subjective viewpoint. Do you not see the leap you committed here? And you phrase it as if it is a logical conclusion. I am by no means saying society is perfect, that the global arts scene is flawless and not worthy of criticism. But this crap you tout is not it at all. This is not what is needed -- its classic moral objectivism and elitism and you are not doing anything new -- this type of rhetoric has been around since literally forever, well documented by art scholars. I expected better from your channel.

[@alessandrodavella4886]

toxic content for my sensibility on art. too early to judge on present state of art. think about doing your own art, to everyone his own references.

[@TumpsBudGuy]

All the "artists" in the comments mad that she said this new art is dog shit. Cant compare the art of the last 100 years to the art from 1800>.

[@corsh2715]

Last 100 years? Either you're stupid, or you goon to Renaissance art while listening to Little Dark Age. Leave your cave and get a grip bozo

[@dominicsmith8698]

Trashy art is a part of culture that has and will always exist. It can be criticized pretty much infinitely but there’s really no point. This video comes across as annoyingly stuck up and out of touch.

[@krunkle5136]

Is it bad to say people can do better?

[@iamamaniaint]

​@@krunkle5136well if you start judging people by your own standards and expect them to do "better" you kinda sound like a narcissist. People are going to do what they want and if you start believing they should be living according to your standards, well that's a slippery slope isn't it?

[@krunkle5136]

@@iamamaniaint not my standards, just higher shared standards. People should be pushing the grow and meet their potential in their craft period. That's how everyone gets nice things and cool art/animation/music etc to enjoy.

[@axxa5000]

God forbid people have standards. Everyone wants a fucking participation trophy.

[@badarte]

"This also means taking a step away from the core of public opinion and all it’s traps, and that we must make things true to ourselves, as clumsily or as amateurish as we know how to make it, as cheap as we can afford to make it, and as raw and as uncanny as we want to make it. To just do it. To just make art, let everyone else decide whether it’s good or bad, whether they love it or hate it, an while they’re deciding, make even more art." - from Art Is Not For Sale Ideas and the obsessive drive to create are all that matter. 'Degeneracy' is irrelevant.

[@TheBoboSamurai]

2 things can be true at the same time

[@tensai.productions]

Like a lot of commenters mentioned, I think the basic idea of this essay (art is being systemically devalued by pursuit of money and corporate greed) is alright, but the way it translates has some perhaps unintentionally fascist subtext. The adherence to tradition really being that of western, Eurocentric art, whereas that of "degeneracy" is depicted as any subversive, often decidedly non-white expression. Juxtaposing the ballet with the twerking, as another commenter mentioned, can't be viewed as anything other than racially motivated. Again, the point that money and media sensationalism poisons artistic motivation is certainly valid, but claiming that all art which challenges western standards of beauty is "blind relativism" and shows the "degeneracy of our time" misses the mark. I don't necessarily agree with you guys' points all the time which is completely fine in artistic discourse, but feel as though this one was particularly underdeveloped and a bit TOO bitter.

[@barryoffeastenders]

I’d say that believing twerking to be a representation or example of black artistic expression is in of itself racist. I do not identify with it despite the colour of my skin. It is degeneracy

[@user-rr5lj8nu3n]

I agree with everything except the "Juxtaposing the ballet with the twerking, as another commenter mentioned, can't be viewed as anything other than racially motivated" part.

[@snorpy]

This is a European channel speaking from a western perspective. There is no "tradition" for Europeans to uphold that isn't western. So yes, there should reasonably be an inherent western tilt to this video, and insisting on that as a defect is non-sensical. Now maybe they could have included more clips of non-western high art to reach across the aisle a bit. But as a call to action being directed at their principally western audience, I see the emphasis on western art as a sensible creative decision.

[@sam-pf5cs]

As much as I'd like to give this channel the benefit of the doubt, the way in which imagery of black and lgbt people is used in this video as well as the glaring lack of critique of the economic incentives that drive artistic production and consumption in favor of a focus on critiquing "post-modern bohemian types" (or "Cultural Bolshevists", depending on which "tradition" you take from) leads me to a more cynical conclusion- the title speaks for itself.

[@keeran697]

The subtext is intentional. It's deeply ahistorical.

[@LucasDimoveo]

Here I was thinking that there was going to be an inversion. “Degeneracy” as a concept rings hollow for a number of reasons mentioned in the comments. Also, I can’t help but comment that elements of culture called “degenerate” is represented by black American dances and music. The sublime on the other hand is … ballet? I suppose in that way this sort of framing isn’t new.

[@ericdraccip]

Cant help, but think its funny in a way. The video complaining about how art is currently only shock value, instead of craftmanship, when this video is entirely about being shockvalue, and lacking craftmanship. This video is a walking copyright strike.

[@krolikthemself]

"le degeneracy bad cause le porn addiction!!!!!!"

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

Let's see... Degenerate, do a definition of a old dictionary; "having low standards of behaviour", "having declined or become less specialized (as in nature, character, structure, or function) from an ancestral or former state", "having sunk to a condition below", "especially : having sunk to a lower and usually corrupt and vicious state", "a degenerate schemer", "a despairing and degenerate world had sunk into servitude beneath him", "degraded", "the functionally degenerate wings of the species", " to pass from a higher to a lower type or condition", "to sink into a low intellectual or moral state", "to decline in quality". All else is waffle when the words used historically mean anything you want.

[@krunkle5136]

There needs to be a line drawn between art that characterizes an era and art that is meant to exemplify beauty in a self aware, dumb way. A long term, adaptive, subtle beauty.

[@MadeOfYpres]

I'm glad many of the comments underpins the fundamental problems with this video and the point of view that you guys behind the cinema cartography account have tried to put forward. I was reminded of one of the videos that got me to like this channel, the one called 'break the rules'. That video was great since it actually empowered new artists and underlined how art constantly seeks to break tradition and find the genius outside of the determined boundaries that previous art was delimiting. And now this video praising stuff that was made before and calling the search of every artist to explore new or existing mediums and feelings as degeneracy sounds extremely like you guys don't have neither faith nor regard for the millions of people that are furthering the pursuit of art in their own way.

[@barrymoore4470]

I'm inclined to agree with you, it seems as if the presenters are trying to have it both ways, and end up being inconsistent.

[@Shtrepstra]

You are yet another victim of the prevailent "black-or-white", "either-or" manner of interpreting reality. "Breaking the rules" means mastering them first, and then finding the way to expand the artistic expression by going beyond the boundaries of the current evolutional point, not simply ignoring them or - what the so-called modern artists almost ritualistically do - spitting on the traditional art and then "experimenting" by simply playing like children with dough until what they create while playing accidentally comes out as something that might make some sense. Such approach puts everything in hands of fate, and does not rely on skill or talent. That IS degenerative compared to what we as society cherished and valued in the past. But don't take my word, Picasso himself explained it perhaps better than I could ever do by saying: "It took me four years to paint like Raphael, but a lifetime to paint like a child." That's "rule breaking" for you.

[@matsanw]

"Art can be anything, except what i don't agree with." I love how these types keep implying art is about breaking rules, when if it wasn't for those rules, most art would not be possible to even exist.

[@thefebo8987]

I don't know what you understand under "breaking the rules" but the "art" they are critizicing in this video is definitly not breaking any rules. It's content. Thats the point.

[@thefebo8987]

​@@matsanwnot everything can be art. Any word that can mean everything would be useless. This is how words function.

[@nekrokulter]

so you praise postmodern masterpieces like the cook, the thief, his wife and her lover, love exposure, jeanne dielman and michael hanekes films in the past and now dare to say that contemporary art is superficial? Many of the works you talked about in the past dealt with the deconstruction of the narrative of modernity, so the arguments in this video make no sense in context of your past analyses. Not even that, but you manage to somehow critizise the authoritarian systems of the 20th century while using the same arguments of the third reich for critizising the changes in art and society? HOW? I already find it very disturbing that the word "degeneracy" is making a huge comeback in youth culture, but i now have to also see my once favorite film channel using it in a sencere manner. What happened? Are you alright?

[@the_Fisher_King]

Ikr, like there are two thumbnails featuring Takashi miike

[@jjclem8759]

GF left him for a lib

[@robbo03]

This channel has shifted right, big time.

[@raynerkeyse]

A rare and disturbing miss for this channel. Most noticeably the choices in imagery used as background in certain sections betrays a sinister and reactionary philosophy that is not one born of any meaningful understanding of art's role, specifically now the landscape is more varied and democratised than ever. You can find what you enjoy and ignore the rest, and no one is telling you you can't. Incidentally this video falls victim to its own message, as the "degeneracy" that you percieve to be intrinsic to popular art in a modern capitalist systems is implied to be connected to a superficial and reactionary philosophical and political view, yet that is exactly what this video shows. You prescribe meaning to things you dont understand, and fear what you can't

[@metalema6]

"the landscape is more varied and democratised than ever" That's not a good thing.

[@raynerkeyse]

@@metalema6 more art is being made, both what you like and dislike, it's just harder to find and explore and so people assume it to be a bad thing. People who crave a monolithic and easily digestible art culture are a scourge on true creativity and advancement of human expression. I emplore you to explore and find what you like, even though in such a noisy and commodified art world, it can be hard. Pedestrian views like yours are the one thing that both this video, and my comment, can agree are harmful

[@Jimmy1982Playlists]

Would love to hear a discussion between you and the video's creator, as I hear where you're both coming from.

[@rbdriftin]

A very conservative and puritanical thesis. I thought better of this channel.

[@aqwthetroop]

This video falls apart once you begin to ask "well, who defines artistic standards and what defines meaningful transgressions?" If the answers in any way eludes to "the collective artistic wisdom over generations" then you've missed the point of art entirely. Yes, art comments on and reflects the human condition, but if we must evolve as this video claims then you can't use the standards you are trying to excel as the anchor that drives your decision making.

[@hermetischism4671]

Lmao what else is there to grow from than what's come before? Art has been building on itself forever. Cycles churn and repeat throughout history in regards to our collective wisdom and right now it feels like we've been falling into idiocracy for the past 150 years. If you get into classic literature at all its easy to see we've been devolving. No one is writing books as powerful as Frankenstein or War and Peace or Crime and Punishment or Moby Dick these days. At least in the developed western world people don't suffer as much as they used to, on top of having our attention spans widdled away immensely by the internet. I'm 27 and feel like an angry old man because it's fucking sad that people don't even see what they're losing. So much wisdom has been thrown out with the bathwater on our way to modernity. Much of those previous books I mentioned took heavy inspiration from the bible. I'm not religious at all and would never have even considered studying the bible as a strictly literary text until reading those classics. It's like we're drowning in a shallow ocean. Art seems to be praised on how much of a monetary commodity you can make it, instead of what it has to say.

[@aqwthetroop]

​@@hermetischism4671 I've seen this mindset a lot and the problems with it are too big to tackle in a KZbin comment so I'll try to boil down my argument as much as possible: -Yes I too remember being in high school and thinking all art after the baroque era was an increasingly losing its complexity and depth. As I've grown older it's become apparent that art isn't a puzzle to be solved. The problem with this linear view of art is that you create the standard working backwards from the art you already appreciate, meaning that your taste will always be tied to whatever era you think best exemplified the evocative nature of art. This is where the whole "I was born in the wrong generation crowd" comes from. They want to feel that innate sense of superiority, and they use music they appreciate from the past as the benchmark for everything else they enjoy knowing that all art will only be able to emulate the feeling they originally had for their favorite work. -Art will eventually become stale and redundant if you try to think about art linearly and ascertain its value based on how "complex" and "deep" said art is. There will never be another "Frankenstein" because that novel already exists. You can always expand on its themes, but there is more to be gained commenting on contemporary human struggles because that art will be more resonant with the current audience. Those themes could also be timeless and presented in a more modern format. You'd never know without shedding your biases. -Art stems from culture and is in constant conversation with itself. Many ideas are refined and transformed in ways that are alien to older generations that don't put in the effort to keep up with changing sensibilities. That doesn't then mean depth is lacking in newer art, rather you don't know what you're looking for. "Post-Modernism" is a catch-all for art elitists don't like but the movement itself stemmed as a reaction to modernism to help broaden our understanding of what the limits of art could be both in the structural sense and in opposition to western cultural hegemony. If you disagree with that idea, fine, but to say its shallow and meaningless is anti-intellectual. Worse yet, this is a near century-old art movement almost disconnected from art in our modern culture. -complexity for its own sake is obfuscation, and the quote "If I had more time, I would have written a shorter later" probably predates when you think art started becoming more shallow. Mastery of a craft, in its least efficient definition, is removing as much as you can until you only have what's necessary. That may mean different things to different artists, so I won't expand on how that should look. I recommend approaching art, music, literature, film, etc. with a more open mind. I know from personal experience I've become a more mature and enriched individual when I decided to shed my narrow understanding of the human mind and embraced the wealth of perspectives and knowledge others have that I don't.

[@hermetischism4671]

It's not a trend to follow for "superiorities’" sake, it's just self-evident when you read the old stuff and compare it to modern literature. When I originally read Shakespeare in high school by the way, I thought it was dumb and pretentious because I hadn’t lived enough or been given the context to appreciate it. After returning to something like Shakespeare and being given proper context It feels like falling into an ocean of meaning. So much of old literature feels that way after returning to it. I’m not at the beginning of my intellectual journey as you seem to imply. I’m very open-minded to what art has to offer and there’s always great art being made. When I talk about its degeneration, I’m talking about the modern trends that permeate society. I’m talking about the shallow nature of “successful” art today which bases its success on how much money it makes. If you’re implying that Frankenstein, Moby Dick, or War and Peace are complex for complexities sake then I don’t know what to tell you. Art becomes stale and redundant when you lose respect for the foundations laid before you by the masters. These classics are classics because they've created an endless well of discussion which breeds more questions than answers. I see a lack of wisdom when newer writers are barely scratching the surface of a beautiful ambiguity that people like Ursula K. Leguin harnessed. I've seen books win awards today that shove easy to digest moralizing down your throat which paint the world in broad strokes. I see this clumsiness everywhere. @@aqwthetroop​

[@cactus2260]

@@hermetischism4671i am into classic literature and perhaps I could bring some insight into the books you mentioned. i commented in another video of this channel that the reactionary impulse towards modernity is always ahistorical, because that sort of reaction has been applied all through history to all era-defining works of art. even Nietzsche pointed out the hypocrisy of this way of looking at history more than a century ago. Frankenstein had trouble being published due to the fact nobody would print the book of a woman, they had to print it under percy's name and later amend it. would this not be considered transgressive for the time? was it devolving? Moby Dick includes very strong undertones of homoeroticism (see: whale sperm massage chapter) such a scene could be presented right next to any modern "degenerate" scene in a book and look just as transgresive today as it was back in the day. was this devolving? Both Dostoyevsky, and Herman Mellvile both wrote paid by the word, which is not a critique of their work, but definitely impacted the way that art was produced at the time. the same way that the modern market influences what and how works are produced now. if you dislike what type of art is promoted, you can blame the markets. those texts also took heavy inspiration from the bible yes, how about many others that didn't? how about many others that did but in a blasphemous way? adherence to tradition, specially to a religious one, is not a good way to measure the worth of a piece of art, tradition is not good in and of itself the same way transgression for transgressions sake isn't good. and I'm saying this as a very big reader of Christian poetry. you and i, as big readers of classics and religiously themed literature can appreciate that there is something special about these works. something that we don't find in "modern works", something referred to here as "sublime". i disagree with the idea that there are no sublime works of modern art, it is more of an issue with trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator to get more sales. in this channel there are many videos of movies and artist that would be considered "degenerate" by most, such as the eroguro artists, or the many great films (and literature and art) created by or depicting homosexuality (also slandered in the video) would you say that Caravaggio's art is not sublime due to him being a degenerate?, and i do admit how horrible he was. would you say that so much of the renaissance, so much of Greek and Roman culture, are degenerate due to their creators and not sublime? how do we know that we calling things degenerate now will not be looked back in the same vein as the people who censored van Gogh or the expressionist or rock music or jazz music?

[@Michelle_Wellbeck]

@@hermetischism4671 "Then Jesus said, ‘Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing."

[@RBrooks10]

This video is pretentious, what defines great art , because ultimately this is a contradiction , you made a whole video analyzing it stating it doesn’t provoke deeper thought or have true moral or spiritual reflection whilst simultaneously morally and spiritually reflecting on it 😅

[@johnblackman6523]

Great art is beautiful and objectively so. Its not ugly like you

[@RBrooks10]

@@johnblackman6523 I like how you said that and can’t see me stfu you’re a silly goose :)

[@RBrooks10]

@@johnblackman6523 that was so clever as well as very thought provoking thank you!

[@piotrekk7045]

What if phones but too much

[@deaconschwarber5142]

damn, this video was real pigpin of narrasstic views on art. I don't think you realize the purpose of art do you? because it's really about just creating for the sake of it and if you really care about how not eveything is the perfect masterpiece of days gone then i'm sorry to say, but welcom to life.

[@nedearbwormback5758]

I struggle to take this video seriously, because it seems to make many false comparisons between the art that is made today and the art that was made in the past. We in the present benefit from the years of effort artists and scholars have put in to identifying great works of art. The classics we know today have remained classics through their obvious exceptionality: their obvious use of skill and vision in context of the historic period they were produced in. What we don't see are all the shitty pieces of art people in the past made: all the students and amateurs that made art which never had the benefit of entering a gallery or even being seen by another person. Artists in the past operated under very severe limitations that artists today do not: limitations of material, education, exposure, and even social status. Now, many of the examples of contemporary 'art' the video uses to describe the 'degeneration' of modern art as a whole, can arguably not be called art at all, but instead 'content'. That is because humans living today do not have a limitation people in the past had: theoretical instant communication with anyone else in the world. Now that humans can instantaneously send any image, word, or sound to anyone else, that vastly expands the potential methods humans can use to communicate. One of those methods is through the 'pseudo-art' this video uses as examples of degeneracy: unskilled globs of paint and color, slathered on pages to be sold for millions of dollars; or fetishistic images of a profane nature, between sculptures of human shit & illustrated pornography. This video seems to forget very key aspects of human nature: that profanity, fetishism, and violence have been, and likely will continue to be, defining forces of human psyches, both collective and personal. As long as we remain human, these aspects of humanity will remain to be contended with. What this video points to as a degeneracy of art and culture, is instead the arguably reasonable response humanity had to the newfound ability for any of its of individuals to communicate with the other: the ability to send the next most shocking, disturbing, and notorious thing you can to someone else. Because why not? This is not a new human behavior. The only thing that has changed is how noticeable these aspects of ourselves have become. Art has not contributed to a decline in culture. The kind of art being produced is a symptom of our changing culture, and the technology it has access to. To blame the people making the 'degenerate' art is, in my opinion, remarkably irresponsible. Because it puts the fault of our changing culture on artists, and not the people who are arguably in more control of culture: the scientists, lawmakers, and spiritual leaders of the world. Art results from culture, not the other way around.

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

"To blame the people making the 'degenerate' art is, in my opinion, remarkably irresponsible." - I think that statement is. Where is personal choice and responsibility? There are artists refusing to make degenerate art. "Art results from culture" - and culture results from art, such as the effect of Shakespeare and Dickens. It's a constant feedback loop.

[@melaniey.5596]

I have to disagree with your central tesis, transgression for transgression sake actually has value. It’s difficult, but as Georges Bataille pointed out, being transgressive and reaching past the limits of ourselves, without destroying, rejecting or neutering the new liminal experiences, lead to discovering new things about ourselves and expanding our horizons, what is called a revelation. What was considered degenerate before has expanded our horizons and become the new normal, be it rock and roll, art, or even technology (gene editing and gene therapy is still considered “degenerate” and “profane”, yet the studies into this areas is what made the mRNA COVID vaccine possible).

[@felipeandrade2470]

I think contemporary art is one of the most creative periods in art history, since it's been freed from the "tyranny of aesthetics" creativity has been allowed to flourish more. However i agree that because of this same reason, people now value transgression for it's own sake, which sometimes results in art that has little creative value

[@user-pi8qw9jj7h]

Art without aesthetics is a contradiction, its not art but amateurism without appeal to anyone other than the artist mother and friends. You'll love the teen flick 'Porky's' over 'The Godfather', or Jackon Pollack's splotches on a canvas or Tracy Ermin's unmade bed.

[@OrdonWolf]

I'm not sure how I feel about this video. I can agree with some of the points made, but they have been made a thousand times before, each time in the same shallow, trite, nostalgic manner. The use of montage and juxtaposition in this video, placing sleazy provocations and the most boring, stereotypical images one can have of virtuosity side-by-side, is the very thing you are criticising: shallow transgression. It is the same easy, fast food film technique your beloved Tarkovsky was so repulsed by. You can say "that is the point", but that is the exact thing artists of transgression always say: "that is the point". Exaggeration, irony, not an ounce of sincerity nor subtlety, to "make a point". When transgression is as ingrained in society as you point out, how do you even criticise it without criticism itself becoming a transgression? You can't. Not in this way at least, which just reinforces the very thing you criticise, if we want to get all Zizek-ian about it. I liked your previous videos better.

[@edwinve4112]

Why do you leftists get angry when you guys are being criticized?

[@GabrielsLogic]

This seems like an excuse for the observer's inability to find depth and meaning in modern art. Disregarding the current state of art as degenerate because of your flaccid opinion on it is abhorrently comedic.

[@mileshenryreloaded14.88]

🤓

[@GabrielsLogic]

@@mileshenryreloaded14.88 I'm glad you put so much thought towards my response

[@mileshenryreloaded14.88]

@@GabrielsLogic Thank you

[@_GhostGarden_]

Wow, they should like, put all this art in like a museum or something so everyone can like see how wrong it is and go backwards to making true art! Like, that's a great idea!

[@Goofy476]

And then we should like, make super special ghettos just to keep the artist in or something.

[@_GhostGarden_]

SHEET DAWG! DATSA GOOD IDEA!@@Goofy476

[@eudidjen3083]

This has been done in the past by some really based people 😉

[@squigglyarmz197]

"the loss of truly great art" you actually think it's gone? How jaded, lazy, and blind. By just showing clips of some modern masterpieces like "Puparia" and others and not highlighting them as examples of true art in the present, not even talking about them, you do a disservice to every great artist still creating and are discouraging and alienating aspiring ones. This is misguided, stop and think what you're trying to accomplish: inspire true art? or, affect society politically?

[@edwinve4112]

Why in the leftist mind you can't accept that maybe you are wrong?

[@weirdguy4948]

The problem with this is that people need to find new ways to express themselves as the world ages. To put all art and media into a single group would inevitably be a transgression on freedom. There is plenty of classical art that exists nowadays that is just as exquisite as their modern “counterpart”.

[@l1ght286]

This is arts double edged sword, personal importance & appreciation of a type of art can transform generations in a positive manner. But collective importance & a common “protocol” can achieve the same positive goal. Soviet Constructionism created a common narrative at the expense of its opposition, & Actionism rejected all for an individual view which has its own broader repercussions. If art as a so-called transgressive nature uplifts someone or a group, good. If art as a collective social medium uplifts, good. Case closed.

[@user-xi4nz3be1x]

This is just fascism

[@fnfallout5664]

And?

[@ErenCenobite]

AHAHHAAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAA You will get old and have tons of wrinkles And nobody will love you Just you wait

[@user-xi4nz3be1x]

@@fnfallout5664 And you are just a fucking loser, cosplaying fascism

[@epsteindidntkillhimself69]

Me trying to get into the guinness book of world records for most Fascist dogwhistles in one video.

[@ethanwimsett]

Know the rules before you break them

[@yesrelationthesequel]

I like the overall sentiment and criticism of this video in many ways, particularly about how transgression has become a fad, the "essence of art" exploited for the benefit of the ruling classes and how criticism and thought around art has become flat and devoid of much in the way of humility. Still, I do find the position that we need to return to the traditional standards of artistic value as a potential salve to be stifling, seeing as how so much of those ruling artistic standards have largely been very Eurocentric, very male-dominated, elitist, and disastrously rigid in its accessibility for both hopeful artists and viewers of art of all sorts--how can art bring us together if not everyone has access to it and access to understanding it? As such, I don't feel like all of the thoughts in this video are as complete as they could have been. It's capitalism that is equipped with the tool of social media and now A.I. that has far too many resources at its disposal to steal, hoard, and reappropriate art for its own bidding, for the construction of their own narratives and myths (nationalist or otherwise) even and in some cases, especially the good art that meets those traditional standards of artistic value. Also, I don't think all "degenerate" art is devoid of value beyond its ability to shock---if you know how to view it and use it---I think much of it can be a powerful critical response to those traditional artistic values and systemic barriers that have stifled so many in the past and present--I like to view it as part of an ongoing conversation.

[@aryanpatel8619]

This guy added oldboy to top 30 video 😂😂

[@fisheyeroll]

can't agree with you more, why can't people just work with changes of reality and new ideas.

[@dddafi5273]

From these videos, I feel like it's a mis-guided take that we need to return to traditional art. The authors Luiza and Lewis are European so yes they tend to show European art because that is their frame but they do not take a position. Rather that we currently need to take the time to learn art of the past to be able to innovate and progress beyond - basically the saying that "to break the rules, first you need to learn them." They do showcase good examples of Japanese, Chinese, African, and American film in this video, not just European. On the contrary, I think we live in a time where good examples of art for us to learn and innovate from are more accessible than ever. Just on this channel I learn so much about cinema, let alone on KZbin where you can find a dedicated artist or historian who shares their knowledge on a certain medium or culture in great detail, similar to university lectures. For me, an issue with accessibility comes from the abundance of 'bad' art that is created at a surface level. This is the art they are criticizing; art that is easy, commodifiable, and has a 'shock' value. And because it is easy, commodifiable, and shocking, this is the art that gets passed around and consumed by most as what art should be. It hinders us from exploring and valuing art from our own cultures, there is plenty of great non-European, female, underground art there.

[@yesrelationthesequel]

literally not the point. You're dismissed....and triggered obviously.@@MS-il3ht

[@AfutureV]

I think you can give the benefit of the doubt to anyone that advocates to look back at traditions for guidance, that they never mean just return to it completely.

[@yvonne3902]

this wasn't what i was expecting from cinema cartography, at all 😭 the argument made sense initially, and then just veered off a cliff the types of modern art and media you used to depict degeneracy was certainly a choice! especially when contrasted to the styles of art that you urge us to retreat to. Its lowkey giving right wing 'back to basics'/'reject modernity, embrace tradition', and thats not a talking point i thought would ever be implied by this channel tbh. it almost feels like a response to an argument that nobody is making? really hope you explore more of this topic in greater detail, maybe on the podcast?

[@yvonne3902]

had to go rewatch, and I can't get over how strange this whole video is?? never mind the insertion of lizzo, furries, and "the practical man", this stance just feels very at odds with past critiques of yours.

[@joeybela4581]

Felt similarly after his everything is dying video. Random callouts to celebrities and undertones of conservative trad-romanticism. I understand the world is saturated with garbage that people call art, but to make such sweeping statements about contemporary works doesn’t serve to help those who are really trying and producing beautiful things in the now.

[@aqwthetroop]

I think to add on to your argument, this video is working under the premise that these sentiments towards "modern art" are not only unique, but also exist only under current conditions. Disdain for the art of younger generations is as old as time itself, and what makes this critique "feel" more true is that everything is documented by the internet more thoroughly meaning it's easier to pick out low-effort content.

[@arodvaz1955]

"Superficial" art, "bad" art has always existed. That doesn't mean that meaningful art is lost forever. The opinions in this video remind me a bit of the film The Square, which seems oblivious to the idea it seems to push, that all art is subject to satirizing, hence meaningless. And there are many profound instances of it being made everyday. Just not all of it is meaningful and not all of it is good, and money is a terrible way to gauge its quality.

[@andreasgajhede7183]

This whole bashing on intellectuals and calling out everything from contemporary art to social media, as degeneracy(a term commonly prescribed by fascist states), while using unclear language about 'true art' is pretty messed up. I've apparently been making my way out if left-tube.

[@edwinve4112]

So you admit that you are in an leftist echo-chamber?

[@andrefernandez5431]

So you praise transgressive and modern filmmakers like bela tarr and jean luc godard that reject a more traditional approach to cinema and then make a video about embracing tradition and revertimg back to old values. I’m inclining to think that the person who wrote this video doesn’t fully understand the nuance of what they’re talking about. Also whats up with the kink shaming and fatphobia in this video lol. As a fat and kinky person myself that has followed this channel and loved some of it’s CONTENT i feel sad to see it.

[@buried4430]

I’m thinking the same thing. The creators of this channel praise many films and artists who have made art that was once considered as degenerate. This entire video is an old man yelling at clouds scenario

[@kylegriffin8783]

I think there's a difference between fat phobia and not agreeing with content creators that actively produce disgusting videos of them gorging food

[@andrefernandez5431]

@@kylegriffin8783 there’s footage of lizzo just singging at a concert next to footage of what looks like an obese woman in bed all the while there’s a voiceover of a person talking about degeneracy lol. Like i’m all in for critizicing exploitative and meaningless trash content but that’s just fatphobia masked as concern.

[@marxxthespot]

A straight line can be drawn from the improved standards of living across the globe and fossil fuels. In other words, the glory of humanity has been the devastation of the Earth. We have the technology to ween ourselves off of fossil fuels but we don’t. If we did everything in our power to love and nurture our children & our top-soil many of our biggest problems would evaporate… but we don’t. Why? That dynamic needs to be at the center of our struggle and art! Two of the other most important questions of our era are 1) What does it mean to heal in a toxic society? 2) What is real and what is illusion?

[@redherring6757]

I think the people behind this channel are simply out of touch with certain aspects of culture and art. Which is understandable, to a point, but I’d be afraid to hear their opinions on hip hop 😂

[@gavinclark6891]

this video leaves me so many questions right- what civilizations deserve commemorable art? what makes that warranted? life as an artist is ever enriching... Degeneracy needs to be better understood ig-

[@McKJacker]

Wow! Even more Fascist than the last video!

[@barrycohen311]

Yes, let's blame society's downfall on Modern Art. Just as the NAZIs and the Stalinists and Maoists did. Art is a refection of society, not the cause of it. Your thesis is flawed.

[@cactus2260]

it is weird how he shows footag of all 3 regimes while promoting the same artistic view they held. individual, transgressive art was not allowed under any of those countries because they saw art as part of the social fabric and thus something that must be controlled and in favor of the status quo and its values. the calls for the sublime, objective values, craftsmanship and tradition speak more to Stalin's realism and hitler's art exhibitions more than any other ideologies i could think of.

[@barrycohen311]

@@cactus2260 Good point.

[@phatscurl2]

I think I understand the argument here, and I'm inclined to agree with most of it, but there are a few parts that bother me. You make several broad statements about art forms in decline, specifically pop music, but that doesn't seem fair to me. There is, of course, how time has filtered out a lot of crap so our perception of art in the past is distorted. More importantly, though, the difference between the quality of art today and the past has more to do with technology. It's infinitely easier for a person to create something and share it with millions of people than it was even as early as 20 years ago. The crap didn't get worse, we just have way fewer filters. On top of that, all this crap is being shown to an inexperienced and undiscerning audience. For most of history, Art (and art criticism) was the domain of people with class and status. Few working class people were taught to understand and appreciate Art, much less pursue it in their own lives. These are people who do not see any meaningful qualitative differences in a Marvel movie and Scorcese, or Harry Potter and Borges. I do not mean to call these people stupid, because they are not. They have just joined a conversation they do not understand. So basically nothing is stopping a person from broadcasting any crap, and the only real arbiters of taste are social media algorithms which prioritize 'engagement' over any real measure of quality, and audience is just about everybody regardless of relevance. The idea of "valuing tradition rather than transgression" is pushing way too close to fascist ideas for my taste. (Side note: I really wish you had specifically addressed how your argument was different than the Nazis given your choice of the word 'degenerate'). I think the real solution is educating every body to be more informed and discerning art critics.

[@BrickTamlandOfficial]

degeneracy is subjective, your standards are not the objective way that all humans must follow. it can be considered one option.

[@sharos.d2323]

Well, you're basically complaining about why art today doesn't pursue beauty and the sublime. You may not have noticed it yet, but right now happiness and beauty are not the main type of feelings in society. Anyway, the way we are supposed to know something is useful if we don't try to rethink it from the beginning, as well as with social norms. Reality is complex and if you need to control the will of others to feel more comfortable, then if not it is some kind of personal problem...

[@TUMIDPLAGUE078]

I wonder why people are so depressed in the modern world? They have more material goods than they have in the entirety of human history. Somethings missing. Somethings wrong. This video points out 1 thing that's wrong amongst many problems

[@Ottrond]

It's interesting that a video about consumerism and the effects of capitalism tiptoes around the issue, doesn't bring up Ronald Reagan or any current billionaire, and the only politician featured in this is Stalin. I wonder what political and economic system really allowed for such "modern degeneracy" to be bred. A genocide is happening right now. Nazis persecuted artists that they considered to make "Degenerate art". I'm all for beauty and the sublime in art, for diagnosing the current malaise in our cultural landscape, but please don't be so cynical and reductive. Chomsky also criticizes postmodernists, you don't need to do it like this...

[@gamerrevoluton]

@@john_g_henderson Yes he has commented multiple times on this video, along with many others, and it all boils down to “you have to think that capitalism is the only reason why modern society could possibly be degrading otherwise you’re a nazi”

[@madspunky]

Yeah, this video has a whole bunch of cherry-picking to make a point.

[@Jimmy1982Playlists]

🙄🤦‍♂️ Reagan - one of the most destructive humans, in effect, in political history. Best comment on this video so far, btw. Cheers!

[@radovansvarc1927]

@@john_g_henderson I believe the point is "You talk about art being of lesser value then in before-times, but instead of focusing on the reasons why this happens (i.e. consumerism and co.), you just yap about things changing." Basically, the video is fine as a conservative propaganda (not necesarilly in the bad sense - propaganda is just art with very clear ideology), and really empty as a video essay.

[@Ottrond]

@@radovansvarc1927 yea what you said. I like this channel too much to call the rethoric in this video fascist but yeah. It's moralizing, denouncing the current state of media and culture by placing the blame on individuals and fueling moral panics, and sidesteps discussing the root causes (Capital C Capitalism) like the plague. It is not ignorant to this discourse, as there's a conscious choice in the beginning to place the "utopia" of communism as modernity's original sin. Ultimately it seems to wish for a diet capitalist world in which there's no social media and every individual chose individually to educate themselves on the merits of art and take oil painting as a hobby.

[@puckb96]

From which movie (or documentary) is the image of 10:45?

[@n0vel2c16]

the color of pomegranates

[@pf887]

homie cant decide if they wanna talk about modern art, contemporary society,pop culture or modern intellectualism

[@user-hp8pr8ry8s]

I'll take both!

[@kacpermaczka2385]

Does anybody know what all the movies that appear in the video between min. 9:25 - 9:50 are? They look interesting, and most of them I don't know.

[@giannielena6366]

I only recognized 'big fish' by Tim Burton. Hope that can help ;)

[@lesionists]

Big Fish / Busby Berkeley musical? Days of Heaven, Clockwork Orange, Third Man, Jean Cocteau movie, Come & See, Gone With the Wind, Seventh Seal, Naked, Raging Bull, Kill Bill Vol 2

[@user-vs1yc6eu9d]

Casablanca / Ida Big fish / (?) (Gold diggers of 1933?) Days of Heaven / (?) (?) / (?) (Maybe an Yoshida movie or an Mizoguchi but still no idea) A Clockwork orange / The Third Man The seventh seal / Gone with the wind The Poughkeepsie tapes / Naked The piano / Come and See (?) / (? Maybe an jean cocteau movie) (?) / Birdman Raging bull / (?) Up / Ghost in the Shell Et

[@buttertool6211]

Transgression for transgression's sake was a pillar of futurism in a way, it was a way to move forward while keeping the past masterpieces revered in museums, this was in 1909, then we have schools like Dadaism, a curious thing about these "schools of thinking" is that they acknowledged that the past is perhaps not ever important and definitively not flawless, but it did happened, to learn from it to be different, to propose something new When everyone wants to be the center of attention, of being the "new" then no one can truly be it, does it sound a bit elitist? yes, but we are already living in the alternative so there's the answer, then we have the notion that having morals or having proper standards is "evil" or "wrong" or...whatever enemy people have chosen to be incorrect this time I will defend self-actualization until the end of my life as the goal of every single sensible person, especially creative types. Edit: I find hilarious how reactionary some of the comments are, it's almost like they don't want any ideas they have challenged, it's not surprising but revealing of how discourse is at the moment and how much people have become reliant on dog whistles

[@AfutureV]

Honestly the funniest part is that the supposedly "fascist" dog whistles where heard only by self professed leftists. It is really telling that disagreements on art gets you the worst labels, while not advocating anything really reprehensible.

[@AntiActionFox]

This video demonstrates the unfortunate reality that even fascists once unmasked, are equally as capable of lucid critique and rationale as anyone else. Even if it is fundamentally incorrect. Just as a few stalinists made masterpeices, fascists, and every idology in between has as well. This video doesnt make me frustrated because it's fascist, it frustrates me because it it intellectually dishonest and i wonder if it's an art peice in the form of its own documentary. They could be your neighbor, your grocer, your friend, and they could be your youtube channel you subscribed too. To me this video's purpose in the world is to demonstrate the uncomfortable reality that someone you respect statistically has views you hate. Be it a khemer rouge apologist, or this video. And everything in between that can upset someone.

[@MealDealSupreme]

Is the next video on Leni Riefenstahl or Mel Gibson?

[@lodeddiperfan635]

degenerate is such an interesting word to use . from Latin degeneratus, it means "to be inferior to one's ancestors, to become unlike one's race or kind, fall from ancestral quality," using it to describe something as free and abstract as art is honestly ridiculous. the kind of nostalgia, or yearn for a time where artists would only paint reality is really getting to my nerves. as a society we moved past the need for painted portraits because of technological advancements, and if im honest and it may sound rash but if your technique is now deemed not important because of technology, maybe its because it wasnt that important in the first place. nowadays if someone shows me a work full of technical prowess, sure id think its cool but that would be pretty much it. theres no underlying thought, no questions to be answered, no thoughts or ideas being challenged, just a pretty girl next to a pretty vase. im an artist, ive been for years and for years ive also faced opression and seen atrocities being commited to humans who dared to speak up, because of this i really appreciate those works who make people angry, seethe, and cry. take for example who is afraid of red yellow and blue? great title, because seemingly, every close minded nutsack is, seeing at how much vandalism it has received. so, really, who IS afraid of red yellow and blue? i think i know and its those who would look at it and dared to call it "degeneracy"

[@edwinve4112]

Cry about it

[@PimpleJThomas]

technology bad, tradition good?

[@kalakritistudios]

In spirit of "In-Shadow: A Modern Odyssey" youtube video.

[@jonsmith7575]

Man, I really wonder what Luiza thinks about rap music.

[@paulmitchum8658]

When did this channel turn fash?

[@jasong7373]

You can ask why appeals to traditionally coded values can seem fascistic and why. Why humanity ebbs and flows between those calls for novelty and a return back to structure. You can have an interesting discussion with yourself instead of leaving a kind of mindless red vs blue team comment.

[@tangolettuce3538]

@@jasong7373 I would love to not seem to think in terms of "red vs blue" if a fascist wouldn't kill me without hesitation given the chance

[@jasong7373]

@@tangolettuce3538 I think the intrigue of thinking that way, of politics as an action movie and not a series of dry lumbering policy decisions, is enticing but not reality.

[@cactus2260]

​@@jasong7373it's not an action movie. But people do die in it, so more like a horror movie. Are we to seriously consider the ideological underpinnings of the nazi party? (degenerate srt exhibition comes to mind) in your experience what have you gathered from seeing the reasoning behind such acts? Do you see yourself becoming more in favor or against it?

[@cactus2260]

​@@jasong7373appeal to traditionally coded values seem fashy because fascist have used that political strategy everywhere. You don't need to ask why an appeal to workers revolt seems communist, it is just part of the ideology. The reason why society swings from novelty to calls to tradition is because the groups benefited by novelty scare and make the groups not benefited by it into reactionary positions. Tradition is not at all apolitical, and a return to it implies upholding values that are harmful to marginalized groups. If your stance is purely intelectual and a well reasoned position, then why is it that you only ever see some group of people with it, perhaps there is something in it for them that isnt there for others.

[@immanuel7925]

What is the sublime? I'm curious because you guys bring it up a lot. It seems like an abstract concept based upon some virtuous values, but I ddon't really get it.

[@TheChickadee1999]

It's a term in philosophy and art used to describe a sensation of overwhelm, amazement, and fear in the face of something we recognize as bigger than ourselves or we can't fully understand. The concept was explored in the 1700s, notably by Kant, and shown much in different Romantic art movements, with things such as vast landscapes and seascapes.

[@immanuel7925]

@@TheChickadee1999 now I can understand how modern art might lack this

[@jcg_001]

​@@immanuel7925a lot of modern art doesn't lack it actually. Look into Vandenabeele's mannerist and matterist sublime.

[@NoaWarrior]

@@immanuel7925 One would think that a user named immanuel would know about Kant sublime EY im jokin

[@iamamaniaint]

Sublime is a feeling and it's relative to who is feeling it. Not something to gatekeep, which is what this video feels like it's doing...

[@mattgilbert7347]

There is no "true essence of art"

[@veikkheikk8919]

Came here expecting the title to be ironic and the content to criticize the bullshit term "d e g e n e r a c y"

[@erwinrasooli3063]

Can someone help me find a movie I was watching a documentary on cinema and it showed a movie where the emperror wanted to attack a city but the mayor refused to surrender but the people of the city convicted him and trialed him and burned him and right after they burned him the opened the city gates and the emperror burned the whole city It was an old movie and i cant find the video mentioning it if someone knows the movie or the video ill be glad

[@scrunkleslut]

I see that this channel has taken some detailed notes on 1937's Degenerate Art Exhibition. Flirting with such ideas and presenting them to an audience is dangerous.

[@deadend5233]

They aren't saying destroy modern art that they deem to be degenerate. They perhaps are saying that modern day materialism and hedonism has permeated the very fabric of society to the extent that, the quality and message of the art produced is just as shallow as the people participating in art auctions or making 'Art' for a quick buck. The quality of the art has grown to reflect the quality of the world it is made in.

[@Michelle_Wellbeck]

@@deadend5233 People said the exact same thing about art in the beginning of the 1900s with urbanization and industrialization. Some people said we need to do something about it. Guess what happened next...

[@cactus2260]

​@@MS-il3ht says the guy angry at transgressive works of art lol. you enjoy classic art? How novel and daring of you!

[@krunkle5136]

Your making leaps and bounds. He's not saying anything about certain groups of people or international conspiracies, he's pointing out the ephemera culture that many people seem stuck in lately, from his perspective.

[@cactus2260]

@@krunkle5136 why do they put pride flags, fat people and black celebrities while talking about degeneracy if not to imply they are degenerate.

[@automateddog]

Even with some of the black and white rhetoric, I'm definitely aligned with the feeling of this piece. "Media as consumer content" and postmodern deconstructions have nullified a great deal of meaning in our artistic spheres, and this mainlines a widespread empty feeling. A pure escape (with no return) to nostalgia could be fruitless, but there still is wisdom to be gained and beauty to praise from the past that can inform today's societies and cultures. And we can seek positive reform in our own hearts with pieces that make us feel deeply. It is not in vain to seek out relics, or to share them with the world--expression is beyond a simple commodity, it is a vital part of what makes humans happy, fulfilled, and hopefully more kind and empathetic. Not to bag on all pieces of media today, but there really is a deep-seated need for everyone to seek their own meaning, authenticity, and beauty that doesn't get accessed much with algorithm-catered shortform content--because experiencing depth and authenticity often requires patience, reflection, and even facing "terrors" like boredom and not-knowing.

[@FayeSomething]

Pretty insane of you to call art degenerate as if that isn't quite literally fascist rhetoric. Way to go mask off

[@deparinge]

It's a really weird strawman to suggest that many people are okay with children being exposed to extreme content, based on the visual presumably porn, in general, much less with the justification of transgressiveness making it okay. Also real subtle to transition from a libsoftiktok clip to showing pride logos while lamenting the poor not following religious rules. I assure you the poor are not too stupid to be unable to improve their lives without someone telling them not to be queer.

[@Dooger414]

What is a MAP again?

[@deparinge]

@@Dooger414 One of the rare very online groups of people even more fringe and universally disliked than flat-earthers? I used the word many for a reason

[@buried4430]

Disappointing video; viewing art and overall society through shallow lenses is something I wouldn’t expect from this channel

[@gpopsk]

someone is paying this channel.

[@Jargoed]

no.

[@jatinsingh7209]

"A life of fleeting pleasures and prolonged suffering_" mannn that hurt...

[@mattgilbert7347]

I am now deeply suspicious of this channel.

[@antoinepetrov]

Me too

[@OUTBOUND184]

Because you're a degenerate?

[@transgenderbasketballplayer]

I been suspicious since the "Experimental Cinema isn't Cinema" video because like 1) According to who? and 2) What tf does "experimental cinema" mean? But yeah I aint even watched the vid yet Im just reading these comments like, yeah I was right to stop watching this dumbass channel.

[@alexhardy13]

Unsub then no one cares what you think

[@danerook]

You shouldn't be

[@ieatlolz]

Is this satire? I agree with much of the criticism about capitalism incentivizing the production of bad art, but its patently absurd to speak as though all art being made is terrible *as you show clips from brilliant pieces of art made in the contemporary period*. This is nothing new, and especially the talk about "degeneracy" - and "degenerate art" in particular - reeks of fascism and the Nazi exhibition from 1937. Not to mention the proposed solution being "individual responsibility" - the typical conservative take that preserves the status quo and disengages from structurally rooting out problems and trying something better. If this is the content you want to put out then I'm unsubscribing - the lack of imagination and interest is truly disappointing.

[@Michelle_Wellbeck]

if this guy is actually making an a digital performance art piece about the gradual descent of a creative into the alt-right pipeline, then he might actually be a genius.