DAC without a preamp

[@arfer1470]

A digital volume control prior to the dac chip cannot be lossless, because you are not using the full dynamic range of the dac chip at lower volumes. That is why companies like Auralic implement a digital volume control in their lower range equipment and an analog one after the dac in their higher end stuff

[@nonyabeezwax6932]

Paul. I luv the information you give but equally appreciate your humor. I am old"ouch" enough to get it.

[@andrefortune2161]

Great meeting Paul and his son Scott today at the UK Hi-Fi Show! Some great conversations and definitely one of the best setups in show price and budget aside! Crazy soundstage width and depth! Paul definitely practices what he preaches and his setup/stand clearly showed! A true engineer that stands behind their product!

[@wyup]

Digital Volume, however precise in bit math in practice at low volumes loses dynamic range and produces a lower quality low voltage signal which the dac is not optimised to produce: i.e. Dacs reach best sinad close to full scale amplitude. One thing is the digital word and another the quality and control of the swinging voltage it generates. Preamplifiers are optimised to lower the voltage, preserve signal quality and present a correct interface to a power amplifier. It is true that dacs today produce a high enough full scale signal (2.2V, 4V) that doesn't need preamplification, but we need delicacy and body at low volumes, and that is the speciality of a preamp or a good analog volume control. Some power amps today reach full power at around 1 Volt of input, we need to lower the signal a lot for a sane volume.. However, there could be a dac with such a good I/V output that equals digital with analog volume control. Both have their losses in the end.

[@ryanschipp8513]

No issues with my Nuprime Dac 10;)

[@wyup]

it has a thin-film switched-resistor ladder for volume control, like hi-end preamps

[@ryanschipp8513]

@@wyup yep 👍

[@JimClark-rw2zw]

In my experience most DACs have lower voltage output than a typical preamp and sound flatter. Usually 2-3 volts vs 6-7 from a preamp.

[@ryanschipp8513]

There are a ton of digital analog converters out there now that at least have 2V or more output. Look at a Nuprime Dac 10;) I have one and it's hooked up right to my Poweramp and it's definitely the opposite of flat

[@davidfromamerica1871]

In my experience I found I have no experience at all. I am going to keep it that way.😀👍😎

[@johannkrist]

I use Rega DAC R. It's perfect for that. I plug all the digital into it, including the TV. It's recently discontinued but might be available somewhere used.

[@damondhorner1602]

His 2 CD players can be connected, then run as one 600 disc player if I'm not mistaken. Then he only needs to run it into his AVR.

[@LuxAudio389]

Oh, that AvR and mega changer are doing some bad math too.

[@Jenny_Digital]

Hey Paul, do digital pots add significant noise to the signal chain when quiescent, E.G. not changing levels. I could understand noise during transition from the digital side and to some extent thermal noise, but they are a bit _black box_ in nature.

[@Shoebutie]

Is Paul saying that modern DACs with a volume control are the equal to a DAC with no volume control fed into a preamp?

[@LeonFleisherFan]

If you want to make sure, ask the manufacturer (e.g. about the output stage and the volume control). But yes, as Paul says, this is true for the majority of products out there that upsample incoming data. Some may need their volume control to be set to maximum (effectively disabling the volume control) or include a bypass function for the volume control, and some have different output voltage settings to better match the preamp or amp(s). There are a few (among them high-end) products that use e.g. an analogue volume control (e.g. Lampizator), and even those do not usually have a preamp built in, which is why most sound better with preamp than without (greater voltage swing/more currant, better impedance matching, can drive longer cables, may drive power amps directly etc.). So-called NOS (non-oversampling) DACs, e.g. R2R designs should preferably be used with a preamp, as even ones that sound particularly nice tend to be lower in resolution and higher in resistor noise. In general, I have experience and have lived with both, direct to amp and using preamps, and tend to prefer using a preamp, provided the preamp is great quality, or an autoformer (a passive device, again, provided it's high quality).

[@ThinkingBetter]

The line output of any modern DAC is providing an analog output with enough voltage range to feed into a power amplifier without the need of a pre-amp. And with lossless volume control, the need of a pre-amp today is really only if you also play analog music and need to switch the power amp to a turntable source. Nowadays I listen to digital music only and the entire notion of a pre-amp is sort of meaningless and adding one to the signal path is only going to degrade the signal integrity.

[@crazydwarfer]

Why wouldn't he just feed the CDs into his AVR? It has an amp, as we'll ass a built-in DAC. Judging by the blind listening tests it's usually from really hard to almost impossible to tell the difference between two or more DACs and Amps.

[@rollingtroll]

Are you sure that wasn’t a deaf listening test? 😁

[@crazydwarfer]

@@rollingtroll😂 It's not a matter of beliefs :) I think that the more science is introduced into the home audio - video industry, the more benefits for us, the audio video enthusiasts will be out there. To each their own of course. If someone wants to spend tens of thousands to get the most "resolving, smooth, open, silky sounding" system, it's their choice. If someone wants to enjoy a good sound using good engineered neutral speakers and an amp and dac inside the AVR, and that person does not hear a difference between the first and second systems, then why would that person spend more money?

[@grumpy9478]

@@crazydwarfer "why would that person spend more money?" for fun.

[@crazydwarfer]

@@toltecstrings1 if I understand correctly, if the listening test was inconclusive, it means there is no discernible difference :) If 50% of listeners cannot tell the difference, and other 50% are able, but inconclusively, what does that tell us?

[@crazydwarfer]

@@toltecstrings1 yes, you are correct. I am taking about this: in my opinion, one piece of audio gear is better than the other when a majority of listeners can tell the difference between them consistently and choose consistently the better one in their opinion during a double blind listening test. I believe, that only then, such piece of audio gear can be deemed superior to another, and justify the steep price increase :) P.S. All other components used are the same, and everything SPL matched, for the sake of such tests. Double blind means that no-one knows which piece of gear is playing at each moment, neither the listeners, nor the organisers.

[@NoEgg4u]

If you want to collect CDs, then by all means, have at it. But to be inconvenienced with having to constantly swap CDs, and be limited to the songs on a CD, is not something that I recommend. Years ago, I ripped all of my CDs, and installed JRiver's Media Center on a nothing special laptop. Now I can play any song from my CDs, and never have to get up or be interrupted. And I can filter and sort and make playlists and smartlists. And I can purchase digital downloads and add them to my library. And I can stream from Qobuz, etc. My laptop outputs a digital data stream to my DAC. So it sounds very good. And if you want to reduce jitter, then add a transport.

[@colanitower]

I've been doing the same thing. LPs back in the day and later CDs were limited in tracks I really like so I recorded the good tracks on open reel mixtapes. The tape collection was perfect for providing the right music at the right time for hours on end without having to switch anything. 25 years on, the tapes are now playlists on a laptop with lossless flac files, foobar2000 as player, and a DAC. It's more flexible than the former tapes, the whole collection is portable to play on other systems without need of a network, and the sound quality has never been better.

[@angkaras4215]

Hi Paul may i suggest something i use in my system ,is an ION from ideon audio dac with very good preamplifier

[@stimpy1226]

Well that was a confusing explanation.

[@MegaXoz]

what is confusing? having a volume control doesn’t mean it has preamp. you can change volume digitally by manipulating bits and that means anything digitally done to control volume is not bit-perfect. you don’t want to do that if you want perfect source information and let the analog preamp does the volume control.

[@darwinwallace77]

There is a company that is building a good DAC with a preamp, Sim Audio MOON 891

[@ryanschipp8513]

And there are countless others

[@rollingtroll]

What I mostly don’t get is how he can’t find a dac with multiple inputs. I never saw a serious one that didn’t? I personally use a North Star essensio but even a simple denon from the nineties already had that. That said, you can’t polish a turd. If you are playing with 300 disc changers and an avr, the dac may not solve your issues. There are no serious 300 disc changers and there are only a handful of really good avrs. I don’t know what your speakers are but I fear the avr and cd players may be a link so weak a good dac won’t save ya. If you want that convenience of all of your music and also quality, may I introduce you to the world of streaming? Also allows for way higher quality than CD 😁

[@stonefree1911]

I agree on your AVR statement as audiophile quality ones are very rare. But if the CD players have a digital out going to a decent DAC, they can sound very good.

[@montynorth3009]

If the outputs are digital coax, then a simple RCA switch box should suffice. About $20.

[@sidesup8286]

Quick! Somebody send Paul a letter that's not boring or redundant.

[@rollingtroll]

I tried but they got ignored. I guess I am boring AND redundant 😁

[@housepianist]

Boring and redundant are subjective. I’m sure there are those who find this info interesting. Can’t please everyone! 🤷‍♂️

[@davidfromamerica1871]

@@housepianist More than 2,000 videos. All he has left are reruns.

[@housepianist]

@@davidfromamerica1871 that’s because viewers will ask questions that have been answered before. but instead of Paul telling them to go through his video archive, he simply answers it again, maybe with a different way of explaining it. and besides, viewers probably love to hear their question being answered in a video. Redundant? Maybe, but even the most ardent audiophiles don’t mind re-visiting common questions and issues. It’s a formula that seems to work well. If it’s too boring for you and others, there are other options. Just imagine how boring your life would be if you didn’t have Paul’s “redundant” videos to complain about. 🙄

[@TheTrueVoiceOfReason]

Tired of boring and redundant? There are multiple buttons for that. Perhaps you should ask what they might be.

[@doctormidnight]

SMSL SU-1. Best $70 I've ever spent.

[@davidfromamerica1871]

Just plug a phone into the AVR. Phones have a volume control and e EQ. OLED iPad, you have a complete entertainment system, camera, Face Time, Phone calls, messaging, home security systems, Car Security systems, cat videos.

[@tedpatrino6438]

paul what are your thoughts about skaa technology.

[@JR-ho5qm]

Is SKAA the technology CerwinVega! Is using in there new studio monitors? If so it looks pretty cool, like Bluetooth but no delay 👍🏻

[@SantanKGhey1234]

DENAFRIPS .... Problem solved

[@juanbaclavab]

Until recently I didn't even know what a dac was and I've been into hifi, mixing and equalization for 15 years. Seems life those audiophiles are stuck with their dacs, expensive cables, turntables and snake oils. You don't need that garbage dac, you connect your computer to the amp and that's it! smh...

[@myman5313]

You need to be high class to buy PS Audio gear. Back to Goodwill for me. Anyone coming?

[@bodycountstables801]

This went from a great channel helping people out with their own gear to heavily pushing PS Audio products derailing the whole thing. Why not make a PS Audio channel specifically for PS Audio products and one that is for peoples questions about their gear? Surely would piss off a lot less people.

[@davidfromamerica1871]

This channel is not about music, it’s about gear and how to spend your money.

[@davidfromamerica1871]

Audiophile addiction. It’s more expensive than Dope..😀 Dope gets cheaper and cheaper every year..😀😀

[@davidfromamerica1871]

@@clickbeetle2720 I spent all my life savings on Audio gear. 😀 kzbin.info/www/bejne/rIPYmGeCoL2cmrMsi=d-X5f7UxhnidgArQ

[@davidfromamerica1871]

@@clickbeetle2720 kzbin.info/www/bejne/nHqWYXlmi9lrbqcsi=jk4JIK6z4F4rO378

[@Mark-lq3sb]

You must be the new kid on the block... Paul has *always* recommended PS Audio products when the opportunity presents itself. Half the questions don't present the opportunity to mention PS Audio or any other audio manufacture. Please tell me why Paul wouldn't recommend his products? He has employees (besides himself.) to pay. Promoting PS Audio products is one of the ways he earns a living, get it? There are dozens and dozens of KZbinrs that recommend different audio equipment brands for you to choose. As far as PS Audio channel talking about PS Audio products... I guess you've never been to their website. Pissing people off... If one doesn't like something about a KZbin channel they can move on or write nasty things in their comment section. we all know there's no shortage of keyboard jockeys in the comment sections of KZbin.