Turin Legato: The DISRUPTOR arrives… but does it disappoint??

[@superknibs]

So glad you got around to this machine. I've had mine for over a month now and enjoy it a lot. Of course I picked up the bottomless normcore portafilter right away. Opens up that area for drinkware and just better shots tbh. You're right about waiting longer for hotter shots, i got used to that after the first week and just adjusted my coffee prep. I never bothered with the pre infusion mode from the beginning as im always paying more attention to timing/weight of my shots and being able to adjust the 'needle' valve was a big help in that. I still love all the features this machine has that only show up on Profitec or rancilio machines for triple the price or more. Dont get me wrong, once i can afford a machine like that in the future i would probably buy one, but for now im happy with my sleeper machine punching way above its price point. Loved your fair review ✌️

[@darrenmortimore1771]

Do you find you need to adjust the flow rate for each bean? Struggling dialing in my shots in this! I'm super new tho to that's also why. I have the flow rates down to 3ml/sec to lower the pressure hitting the puck.

[@nrafaco]

I will wait for v2.0 but definetely would buy it wirh OPV and a fixed ppre infusion

[@SKotov_]

Good afternoon. There are two settings for pre-infusion in this coffee machine. The first setting you used changes the delay time between the infusion and the main flow for making coffee. But there is also a pre-infusion spill setting, you can set the spill time, the set time of 1 second just goes from the factory. The original name of the coffee machine is Gemilai CRM3007L, this is the second version, the first version was CRM3007G.

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

Thanks for this! Someone else commented about this adjustment. I just double checked the documentation that came with my unit and the only adjustable parameter listed is the time I show in this video. I will see if I can access a spill time setting and if so, will absolutely update!

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

Just an update here! I tested this and could not access this setting on the unit I have. Another person suggested a long press on the manual shot button - on my unit this does NOT allow for changes to the preinfusion spill time. Adjusting the spill time is not listed in the documentation that came with my unit. For the time being I stand by my comments. As I said though, I would not be surprised if this is updated on future units. It seems like it would be an easy firmware change.

[@phoenixtx]

@@DaddyGotCoffeemy Legato cannot access the spill setting via long press of the manual button either. The latest version of the MiiCoffee Apex now has this feature so I immediately tried it on my Legato to no avail. It will probably be added to future versions. I’ve been leaving the pre-infusion disabled and have been quite happy with the results.

[@demerzelnguyen]

To change the pressure to 9 bars, you adjust the pressure flow vault while you are pulling the shot. It'll not work if you adjust without pulling the as the same time.

[@NevrNewd]

@@demerzelnguyenThat’s not adjusting the pressure, however. It’s just adjusting the flow rate. So a different dose, tamp, etc. will make it so that the flow rate doesn’t stay locked to whatever pressure you want. I’ve gotten used to and enjoy a 7 bar extraction and there is no way to make sure it’s consistent. I’m sure they’ll add it in the next version though.

[@DavidFricks]

Pre infusion is fixed now and they have a free user replaceable control board for anyone who wants to upgrade an old one.

[@marquishardy2341]

I think this machine is amazing and I've been watching it pretty closely. I am not one to do mods on anything, and it seems with the gaggia it's pretty necessary and almost expected to mod it. The dual heating elements is a big selling point for me as well! Thank you for your review! 😊

[@liquid801hlm_9]

Great video on this. I hope they'll go the same route they did with the DF lineup and the Gen2 of this comes out in a couple years addressing all of the concerns you raised in this video. I also selfishly would like it to take a couple years to sort out so I wouldn't feel as premature in moving on from my GCP to this for my house. Maybe in the mean time I'll get the guts to do the Gagguino mod on this machine and not even need an upgrade.

[@Karowato]

The new version of this machine is coming out soon, with proper preinfusion settings and easy pressure adjustment.

[@ianshepherd6476]

With an OPV I may have bought it but went profitec go instead and love it

[@hash5191]

Profitec GO is a well-built excellent machine. Would have been nice if it had pre-infusion though but I'm still considering it.

[@ianshepherd6476]

@@hash5191ya the GO is awesome it’s a little take I love it. You just have to be ok living without pre-Infusion. The vib pump has a slow ramp up to pressure anyway so it kinda acts as a short pre-infusion. If you aren’t doing really light roasts it doesn’t matter as much anyway

[@46spanner]

@@ianshepherd6476 I've just bought the 3007Z, it has an OPV

[@Kiaulen]

Just bought this, it comes in this week. I'll almost certainly mod it with an OPV, but then I have basically a half price profitec go, but with less wait for steam.

[@confusedhop6189]

As others pointed out, this is a rebranded Gemilai CRM3007L. There is a hungarian company called AVX that also sells this machine (rebranded as AVX DB1), but the internals are slightly modified to be a bit more robust, and they also sell spare parts so it's quite repairable. Then there's also the Kafmasino One, a heavily modded version, that is basically a competitor for precise prosumer machines at a lower price. So there's a rabbit hole with these machines and how much they're reused in different markets. As for the OPV, I'm not totally sure it doesn't have one, I have a rebranded entry level Gemilai (from the aforementioned AVX company) and after some rummaging around, I found that it has a white plastic attached to the top of the pump that is sealed with red glue. After removing the red glue I found an adjustment screw and was able to calibrate the machine to 9 bars. Now again, this is not the same machine, but a cheaper one, so I would assume the same can be done with this machine. Though messing with it would most likely void the warranty.

[@TheMartinChnnl]

If it's an OPV valve, it should have a pipe that goes back to the water tank, which I doubt it has...

[@confusedhop6189]

@@TheMartinChnnl Yes, this is probably an older model, I heard that the newer model comes with a built-in OPV.

[@diggpen1249]

Would you happen to know if it's also the MiiCoffee Apex? It looks identical.

[@youngsook9571]

Just ordered as V2 fixed many of these issues.

[@kyllerkill]

The pre infusion is great. That’s all I want when I’m doing mine.

[@Rolando0801]

This is actually a rebranded Gemilai 3007 which sells for about $200-$300 here in SE Asia. Gemilai makes a lot of espresso machine models which can rival well-known brands as far as features are concerned for a fraction of a cost. Hope you review some of them.

[@davidcarlin3850]

Nice Review. I appreciate that you showed us inside the unit. According to Amazon there is a 1.1 version that has fixed the pre-infusion issue. Does it come with a bottomless filter basket ?

[@Purple_Hayes]

The preinfusion has been the most common issue I see raised that feels like a really big miss. It feels like it could be fixed with a firmware update though. Just need to let it push more water out before closing the valve. Could be a pain to fix for units already out there, but it seems like they could easily fix this without doing a full revision

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

Totally agree here!

[@davidmarsh1158]

I received mine yesterday. Pretty happy with it. Agreed the pre- infusion is questionable 😊

[@matthewwilson9749]

I really like mine. It's made some outstanding shots for me.

[@Tristan_the_ultimate]

Thanks for the awesome review, sir! Was just curious if maybe you can try a long press on the manual shot button to actually change preinfusion time. Because the long press on the minus button I think changes the preinfusion pause time. Saw this on Tom's Coffee Corner video. And if it does work on your unit then maybe you can make a follow up video to clarify the "useless" feature remark? More power to your channel sir!

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

Thank you for this! I will certainly test and report back. This adjustement is not listed in the documentation that came with my unit but I will try it and see if it works! If it does, I will certainly update!

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

Just an update here! I tested this and a long press on the manual shot button does NOT allow for changes to the preinfusion water output time. For the time being I stand by my comments. As I said though, I would not be surprised if this is updated on future units. It seems like it would be an easy firmware change.

[@Tristan_the_ultimate]

@@DaddyGotCoffee thanks for the update, sir! I guess even if they are same machines and just rebranded, some resellers like MiiCoffee has more updated models. This is great to know! But man, with the preinfusion actually working then the only question will be its build quality and longevity. These new cheaper machines are really shaking up the market.

[@RasenRambo23]

@@Tristan_the_ultimate Working preinfusion plus adjustable OPV, then I am on board.

[@ChrisWilliams-vm1do]

I have the DF64 Gen 2 grinder and it is amazing. I can’t wait to see the second generation version of this.

[@evmdafilipino]

Version 2 is available for pre order now

[@raydioz]

@@evmdafilipino links always help.

[@jeffjones6667]

Cant wait for version 2 or 3, if i need machine right now i would still go gaggia

[@ScepticMatt]

I would go for bambino plus in this price range unless you go the gagguino route

[@RasenRambo23]

Why? It's better than the GCP already.

[@garyadityatanojohardjo8259]

Do you have any tips since the steam wand sprout water more rather than the steam itself?

[@jordancullenphoto]

I feel like it's not worth the upgrade from a bambino plus, even though it's 54mm.

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

Definitely valid! It won’t be for everyone!

[@greysuit17]

Can’t be crazy picky at $500 for this with the options it includes. That being said a few improvements would be epic with maybe a small (if possible price jump) opv, pre-infusion to be actually a useful feature, insulated steam wand with different hole options, & a bottomless portafilter. Maybe a pre infusion option on manual mode. (Is this asking too much?) 😂 but seriously 🤔

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

My first day and a half I was convinced preinfusion was broken but it was because I was pulling manual 😂☕️

[@hash5191]

Hasn't there been a fix to fix the pre-infusion and the steam wand to have one hole for greater steam?

[@nrafaco]

Great review, thanks

[@TheMartinChnnl]

How does shot taste compares to the taste of let's say, a big machine with 5L boiler or more?

[@alexwilson27]

The only reason I’m a little disappointed I got a Bambino Plus instead of this is because eventually I’m going to want to upgrade my machine, and when I do I’ll have to upgrade all the accessories too. With this having a 58, it would be a lot more seamless. I didn’t feel like going with the Gaggia though because of the lack of PID.

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

Yeah 58mm is def an edge over the brevilles if you plan to moving to 58 at some point in the future!

[@ricric9521]

The new version 2 has the 9bar opv

[@pdxrunner]

It would be interesting to have a comparative review of this. The Gaggia and a Rancilio.

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

Yeah I really need to get one of each. Dual heating elements is a big one though.

[@jwanger142]

Hey apologies if you already covered this but your audio sounds fantastic. Would you mind sharing what you use for audio recording, I'm trying to replicate the sound quality in my own kitchen for some videos my wife does for her meal plan business. Thanks, always appreciate your coffee knowledge.

[@marquishardy2341]

Hey there! If I had to guess, he's using a shotgun microphone since I can't see a lapel/lavalier mic or anything around. That shotgun mic would either be going directly to his camera, syncing the audio together, or to an audio interface or field recorder allowing him to later edit the audio further. Sennheiser, rode, and audio technica all make fantastic shotgun microphones. My favorite of the 3 being the sennheiser mke 600. The mkh416 from sennheiser is nearly 1k, but is a stellar microphone and the one they use on NPR tinydesk. A simpler/more cost friendly option may be getting a lav mic like the rode wireless go depending on your experience/affinity with audio equipment!

[@jwanger142]

@@marquishardy2341 thanks for the detailed reply. Will for sure look into those options.

[@marquishardy2341]

@@jwanger142 you're so welcome! Please feel free to reach out if you have any more questions!

[@loganmontgomery1955]

Got this for only $400 with a pre-order deal on Turin's website. I'm loving it for the money and found that once you get the grind and flow-rate correct, you can pretty consistently get 9-10 bar shots. I've never used one of Turin's grinders, but I'd definitely be interested to see if they have the same value for money that I believe this machine has.

[@RasenRambo23]

They do. Famously so. Most performant grinders in their price bracket. Go for the DF64V with SSP burrs - endgame grinder und $1K.

[@mtysk]

How's the steam pressure compared to the Ascaso Steel Uno/Duo which also has therm block heating?

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

It’s quite comparable. Both are about 35 seconds to steam 6-7 oz!

[@doxman13]

Hi, for the PID, any Offset required?

[@coreymbonge9532]

is this the same machine as the Kafmasino?

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

Same case. Internals are very different

[@JeepBigE]

Looks like a great machine for the price.

[@ricric9521]

Is that preinfuson short spurt of water the same for 10 vs 30 seconds?

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

On the version i tested, yes. The pause was the only thing that was longer. I heard there is a V2 that I have not tested.

[@TheMark58harr]

Hi miicoffer machine I know it's a 58 I want to buy a bottom minutes porter filter

[@andrewdavis9438]

Bought one on Amazon and it didn't work after two uses. Poor construction, casing was incredibly flimsy, preinfusion might as well not be there, no OPV valve. Wanted to like it but the price was too good to be true, unfortunately. Saving up for a machine with better build quality.

[@georgiosgalanopoulos7379]

Gaggia classic and rancilio silvia terminator

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

Exactly 🤯

[@jabillon]

I got DF64 Gen 2, Is this a good option to make upgrade to revile barista? Thanks

[@devonmoonie6860]

Yes!

[@acac4348]

Can you change the PID from C to F like on a Lelit?

[@carrscoffee]

No you cannot bu this machine is the only and best option for the price range without spilling out 1000 and then you might as well got to 1500 its a solid machine

[@jebegonzalez]

🔥 🔥 🔥

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

🔥💪

[@Jefafa73]

Maybe on a version 2, like the DF 64 some of the kinks are worked out, but for now I would get a Gaggia Classic EVO (USA) for $450 and self mod it with a PID. I'm usually looking for a track record of reliability, so that's why I'd go with the Gaggia, and I consider myself handy enough to do some simple mods. At first I was really disappointed I got the Classic only a month before the reviews for the Legato started coming out, because I would have really liked a built in PID. But I think this product is really going to push other companies to find ways to reduce prices or make new products if they want to stay competitive in the entry level market. Maybe the Bambino line is safe because it is solid for the price, and the plus model will do auto milk steam which is very nice in the morning when you're trying to run out the door in a hurry.

[@tagheuer02]

Gaggia having problems with Teflon flaking off their boilers, many retailers are offering extended returns on them

[@robinlawson69]

Just returned my Gaggia Evo , returned it due to flaking, got the Legato yesterday from Espresso Outlet.

[@tomscott4438]

Turin (for Espresso Outlet) is probably buying them for $150, rebranding them without adding anything, and selling them for $500. Pretty nice profit margin for zero R&D or manufacturing costs. For $350-$400 I’d probably jump at one, but not for this price. I know it’s relatively inexpensive compared to the competition, but that doesn’t make it a bargain. IMHO, espresso machines in general are grossly overpriced.

[@57Raz]

You are correct, sir. Even with the innovative, established companies, the low-end machines are marked up more, but subsidize the design, development and improvement of the higher end models. But all these re-branding, re-distributing companies are effectively pirating that development work done by others that charge what their effort was worth. Coffee is coffee, but the IS an element of consumer awareness that they are undercutting the industry quality overall if they support these types of low-end market entrants. The established companies cannot compete on the same low costs, so they will have to cut corners in workmanship, quality control, or customer support to make up the difference and match prices for features. That will mean the entire industry segment gets more cheaply made, less reliable, or less durable. Did we really save anything?

[@Thetache]

Seems like the factory behind these products is using the first wave buyers as beta testers with the low price as the temptation to get an unfinished machine, then the mk2 will be the real machine with the bugs ironed out. I am at the stage of trading up to a better machine now so its not on my radar.

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

As far as I can tell, they have been manufactured for some time already under the “Gemilai” brand, but are new to the North American market under Turin/MiiCoffee

[@LorenzoNW]

I'd rather save up another $450 for an Odyssey Argo...but that's just me.

[@halfwayj2766]

“Welcome to the rest of the global community “ 😂

[@gigin2421]

Latina Altro V2

[@Cccoast]

Who can spend 3k when this is ~ $500

[@Aiken-ev7zz]

Made in Foshan Guangdong China😂

[@carrscoffee]

You seem like kinda a snob about theses things all the other reviews of this machine have been nothing but good . Even from sprometheus. He is the very definition of a coffee snob and he gave it a solid reveiw. Just saying

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

As it stands, my verdict on this machine in the video is great value for the price and potentially disruptive to the market overall. I even went as far as to say nothing is touching it on features for price. I think it makes me diligent, not snobbish, to point out areas for improvement or places where what is advertised may not match up to reality. If the preinfusion actually did something useful I would be less critical, what it actually does in real world use could actually lead to MORE channeling. I don’t think criticizing this feature is overstepping. An OPV would put it over the top, and if a preinfusion is billed as a feature it should at least work. The warm up time is something I felt responsible to point out as a reviewer and not even really a negative, just something to be aware of. Despite these critiques, it’s still solid value.

[@carrscoffee]

@@DaddyGotCoffee I was talking about your description of the build quality. It's an entry level machine it's not all gonna be copper and brass . I know you have to mention it but it doesn't have to use the words junk or cheap. All entry level machines are built to have less expensive level builds. I think imo it was a little harsh. That's the point I'm making.

[@DaddyGotCoffee]

@@carrscoffee ok, that’s fair. It does feel significantly cheaper and less polished than a bambino in many ways, which is less expensive. But maybe I should have phrased that differently.

[@carrscoffee]

@@DaddyGotCoffee again I'm not picking at you at all I did like the reveiw tho

[@stephenw1799]

You sound like a pain or maybe the Chinese seller. It's his view, he's entitled to say what he wants. The Turin website is dodgy, links that don't work, they essentially say they don't care about import costs from China. You'll get screwed if this machine stops working within warranty. So get rid of that chip on your shoulder, it's holding you back!!

[@BenjaminGetenet]

My 200€ espresso machine has a 3way valve ... And about the opv, don't be so lazy 😂