Dalai Lama Presentation: Mind and Life XXIV

[@toastyblend391]

Thanks for posting. I did meditation with an official Tibetan Buddhist group when I was 20. There was none of the study and grounding his holiness is talking about here, it was straight to complex meditations, partitioning your mind into various stances concurrently. It contributed to a period of mental ill health and I've never fully recovered from messing around with my mind in that way. Good to see a discussion about it, disappointing to hear him say it's the victims' fault.

[@paavohirn3728]

I think he was joking about the victim blaming, but it was definitely frivolous and thoughtless of him to joke in this context as likely many even in that room the Dalai Lama himself included have had a role in marketing Buddhist meditation practices to people with little context or grounding in study and ethics. As former founder and instructor in a Buddhist meditation group I've been guilty of this myself. I still believe there's benefit to be had from Dharma practices for your everyday western people but Willoughby's research is important to learn from when doing this.

[@Tom_Torres]

Dr. Willoughby Britton is being very truthful here. Very surprising how accurate she is about the experiences. (I've experienced the adverse effects she is describing. It was accidental.) Much love for Willoughby!

[@petercohen3966]

I was deeply involved with the Dzogchen, Nyingma,, Mahayana school of Tibetan Buddhism for many years. Even teaching. Victim blaming is only the half of it. Worse is when adverse events are reframed as positive spiritual advancement. And the many schools, including HHDL, touting dysfunction as progress. The Dalai Lama behaves very disappointingly in this video, and he seems oblivious that he is confirming for all that meditation schools do not take adverse events seriously. My personal experience was that the teachings and the meditation was wonderful... until it wasn't. Dissociative experiences that last a decade are not something to laugh about and say "study harder". I'm glad Cheetah House has posted this video for future generations to see for themselves.

[@heather_hill_HHH]

I don't know much of it, but have heard that there have been people who had "meditated wrongly" and had "adverse effects" i.e have "gone mad". So from learning about this, I realized I have to meditate carefully and moderately. especially with carefulness and caution and mindfulness. This knowing of there being a risk in extreme meditation or wrong meditation is not known fully in society, which seems to be the problem. There is also the fact that people are extremely different from one another, and some their minds could react in a other than normal way to a meditation practice.

[@Walklikeaduck111]

The dalai lama gave sound advice and encourages objective research. Dr Britton is doing good work in bringing this understanding of meditation and its different aspects to westerners.

[@richardzeitz54]

The conversation sounded as if its usefulness was hampered by a lack of mutual comprehension, or perhaps lack of sufficient common ground. The negative side effects of meditation sound an awful lot like neurological issues for the most part, tho' "psychological" or "psychiatric" might be terms applied to some of the symptoms - but it all sounded like processes going on in the neurons which the meditator accidentally triggered. To say it was their fault just sounds like incomprehension: how could expectations trigger involuntary movements? How could lack of understanding the foundations of a meditative practice cause one to forget the meaning of red traffic lights? I've meditated for 15 years and experience three or four effects that obviously are not intended zazen, and my understanding and background, my expectations have nothing to do with them. My vision fills with washes of intense color that, if they didn't disperse at the end of a sitting, would disable my vision, my body fills with sensations of electrical tingling and sometimes of floating, and my cognition slows to a trickle. I've no idea what restores me to normal at the end - it certainly isn't my understanding of zazen that does it! If those effects persisted, I would be disabled. If some people experience any of what I do for years after a sitting, it's worthy of scientific inquiry! I doubt any suttas or sutras have anything useful to say to help one so disabled. Oh, and I can hear my blood flowing and feel the pulse of my heart throughout my body, sometimes for hours or day but it doesn't bother me - I learned to ignore it. It's neurology, not metaphysics.

[@shyamk4257]

Thanks for sharing

[@grasshopper4098]

Totally different systems: West/East. One requires active participation in society ( work/school/ regular social interaction- while the other allows for support systems in persuit of contemplative life. Meaning family and culture support ascetic life styles). The Eastern approach allows for these experiences that Dr. Britton mentions to be worked out under a social support system (monastic/ renunciant traditions). The Western student needs to balance the experience s that arise through meditation in the normal course of his daily routine. At times with no additional support system in place to take care of family and bills. Perhaps we need to set up systems in which clinicians and western practitioners can support the different phases of awakening that arise. It will require the clinician to be skilled in these topics and society as a whole to be aware of how we can support these people in need. Perhaps we can develop awakening centers where people can be given all the tools they need until they regain a working balance. We need clinicians with deep insight, not just intellectual powerhouses in order for something like that to work. Not sure if it helped any but I wish all these people the best. I don’t think psychiatric wards is where practitioners should go. Surely we can come up with better options.

[@tarot.card.std.diagnosis]

are you aware that christian monasticsm exists?

[@khaleddbdbdb3562]

Thanks for your work 🙏 I was going to start this practice ! Not that my life is miserable but just to try new things . Fuck it I don’t need this shit in my life

[@CeliaTyree]

Meditation is generally a positive experience for everyone. The kind of experiences she is talking about do not happen when you practice for 10 minutes daily. I encourage you to try it and see how it makes you feel and decide for yourself wether it's worth it.

[@umagrey5608]

IIn Tibet, meditators were able to find masters who had been trained for many years and were very experienced in meditation, with whom they could discuss any problems that arose with their meditation practice. Today in the West this one-to-one support is often completely missing and there are often no experienced meditation masters who could be asked. Fortunately, Buddhism has grown very quickly in the West and that has led to this phenomenon. Of course, something that has a strong effect can also have side effects. It's a shame that these old gentlemen are taking this very urgent problem so lightly and the students haven't read and informed themselves enough. This macho group affected me with their lack of empathy for those seriously affected.

[@paavohirn3728]

It wasn't all rainbows and unicorns in ye old Tibet either. It was an extraordinarily hierarchical and patriarchal society with a lot of political intrigues and even wars inside and between the branches of the Buddhist tradition. I also think it's likely there were similar abuses by highly respected lamas as we've seen in the diaspora. But yes, if you were lucky, male and perhaps belonged to the aristocracy you might have found some extraordinary teachers. We just always need to keep our wits about when making important decisions.

[@noodlewhitley]

From my reading, and practice, the experiences that she is reporting are typical. Many great practicioners of the past had similar experiences. What did these meditation teachers expect? However, it's always, "After enlightenment, time to do the dishes."

[@filip_cabra]

"Tumo practice could be easier". Point exactly.. We westerners are individualist and transactional and linear: "I" put in investment of meditation therefore "I" expect an economical yield in the form of bliss, better relationships or cognitive powers. This is why the Dalai Lama stresses that there be no New Age- approach to this ... but to study, hard, like you do in a serious school. Nothing in life is free except your mother's love. Please don't demonize mediation, but rather the lonely and rapacious heart of our hurry culture.

[@natashazoe181]

Lack of empathy seems to be another harmful effect of meditation. Typical response of blaming the meditator. Stock answer, "you're doing it wrong". Maybe he needs a new translator because he doesn't seem to understand that she's talking about experienced meditation teachers, not beginners who are just doing it wrong.

[@TheSpiral37]

My reacton to the Lama leader is revealing, similar to others here. The west has so much more liberty to choose what we want to try, w/o hardly any safe guards, warnings shown in the public eye. From his response, ancient eastern culture is far better, it shows - the west is irresponsible: education is lacking , some level of personal mental stability is needed, also a goal. Meditation becomes a way of life [like a religion]. Westerners are not taught about these requirements so as to have a better experience. It's no wonder Dr. Willoughby, a caring lady, [breaking through a world dominated by men] is very concerned about the truth, and she is sounding the alarm. Enlightened Women are rising up!!! ❤❤❤🙏💥

[@thehiddenyogi8557]

Dr. Willoughy: HHDL: Dr. Willoughby: HHDL: Dr. Willoughby: HHDL:

[@derbestimmer1148]

Her approach is flawed. The Causality she draws is just not there. Science can be bent in many ways. You need a moral compass to achieve good things with it.

[@0i0l0o]

@@derbestimmer1148 There is nothing flawed. On the contrary. She is teaching mediation and continues so. And she met a lot of people with serious side-effects from various meditative practices. The only thing she is saying, that it is a tool and not every practice is for everyone. You should choose accordingly. And if adverse symptoms appear, which they might, you need a different approach then, instead of just keep going the same way until you "go through it", which is often ill advised.

[@Zoomakroom22222]

Dalai Lama doesn’t come across as being empathetic at all. In this video I am not impressed with him at all. Two thumbs down to him

[@thehiddenyogi8557]

Glad I asked.

[@davidjohnzenocollins]

@thehiddenyogi8557 I am VERY glad he made his comment. He is, actually, correct.

[@napppstar0]

The involuntary jerking is something that happens to me when I meditate. Don't know what to do about it.

[@KerrieRedgate]

I wonder if it may be a blocked channel or chakra, as you are opening more through the meditation. A localised resistance. Where it’s happening can be the major clue. I’ve always found a good acupuncturist can detect these chi/consciousness blocks and can often help to relieve the problem through balancing the system. A practitioner skilled in Traditional Chinese Medicine can usually sense what’s going on at the level of spirit/mind. Very helpful for our inner work. Most of us in the West come to these practices later in life as adults and we must dive in without any gentle introduction or progression into these energetics. I don’t think our minds are quite primed enough. Something the original meditation masters would not have fully appreciated, as through our Western culture and education, we had been given a virtual right-brain lobotomy at a very early age.

[@PrisciladeMeloSilva]

Wow, doctor, you were pretty respectful, kind and humble. This man don't see you as a humanidade, much less as a peer, and he is sorrounded by other men and interrupting and challeging you all the time. You brougt a legit concern andall he did was minimize you. You were só brave... And now, the image of the Dalai Lama is not more than of a pedofile, and you were there confronting him while everyone just could see saintute in him. Forgive my english, it is not my first language.

[@hilbrandbos]

Ha, she really makes 'his holiness' look like a buffoon in comparison. His only reaction is to iImmediately start to victim blame the shit out of his followers and laugh ath their misery. The contrast is so stark: she is patient, collected, reasonable, deeply compassionate, learning mindset and his lowliness shifting in his seat, uneasily horsing around, apathetic, trying to distract, trying to bullshit his way out of it.

[@thehiddenyogi8557]

Everyone is a critic.

[@hilbrandbos]

@@thehiddenyogi8557 everyone should be

[@thehiddenyogi8557]

To me, he seemed relaxed, and playful, and she seemed to be impatient that he was so relaxed and playful, interpreting it as he wasn't taking her seriously. And in fact, I don't think it is anybody's fault, even though HHDL maybe didn't understand how serious she was saying these problems are to some people who have incompetent teachers, his answer was perfect: understand the path, know what to expect, know what context these experiences have on the path, so that you can turn them into allies and progress upon the path. The problem, however, is when 'secular' buddhists practice intensive meditation retreats and their practice starts to have results which cause cognitive shifts that don't align with their worldview. Secular meditators lack the context for these experiences, they interpret them as psychosis, and react with fear. All because they don't have an understanding of the whole path. Secular Buddhists actually don't seem to be on the same path that HHDL is on. @@hilbrandbos

[@hilbrandbos]

@@thehiddenyogi8557 Victim blaming. You buddhists are excellent at that. Always your own fault; should be more serious about it, should seek out better teachers, should be more religious, more pious, more devout... classic brainwash stuff.

[@metta1773]

@@hilbrandbos It is NOT 'victim blaming' - it is about developing wisdom into the 'present moment.'

[@lxMaDnEsSxl]

This is a wise lady and an ignorant Dalai lama.

[@uvrocker]

This is the ignorance and materialistic outcome based culture of western lifestyle. Transactional expectation from an age-old practice that was never meant to provide such quick answers. If we play with the cultural conditionings and try to unravel the so-called Mind, we are bound to find the hodge-podge of repressed emotions, and feelings resurfacing with all kinds of experiences people have described. These side-effects have always been known in the eastern society. I have read that there have been cases where people have gone mad as well! The problem here is though western society is trying to quickly mimic and digest something which they have NOT fully understood. Thats what Dalai Lama is also trying to convey... This is supposedly the hardest way of living and the idealistic viewpoint is with a final goal (if we can say any) of transcending the human body mind complex and anything associated with it. Not to gain better relationships, happy feelings, more cognitive powers to be successful, famous in life whatever that means in the current way of the world (and now both eastern and western societies are consumeristic and capitalistic)! In addition no one knows that such states can be ever-lasting (goes against the concept of Impermanence!!) As someone said, there is no similar social structure supporting these people in the west. Eastern side we have had age-old ashramas or centers where people can live a monastic life (not that it is greater or better life). After all, what will we do with ALL the Enlightened people? Live life of a Warrior in a sense, understanding there is NO permanence, or perfection. Associate with the world for a normal functioning of survival of the body and certain activities, but NEVER get possessive. Go through the vicissitudes of life with truly an open mind and heart. Whatever has to blossom will do, rest is Maya.

[@michaelnice93]

The take away is meditation can be a powerful practice with major effects and should not be practiced without proper guidance. Proper guidance is very difficult to find or to discern. In my experience it’s a tricky thing and only one in a thousand meditators possess the proper motivation and mindset to even attempt walking the path of liberation. As far as meditation for health benefit goes I would recommend not to do it at all. There is only one proper reason to meditate- to achieve spiritual liberation. One should not do this without an experienced guide and full practice including hearing and reading teachings for context.

[@mindfulmoments4956]

I agree with you regarding meditating, etc., for ‘spiritual liberation’ - however, I think people can be encouraged to meditate even for stress reduction (like how it is done through the 8-week MBSR course). When they do this (meditate), many people seem to understand and appreciate the value of ‘spirituality,’ which in itself can be very beneficial for so many people.

[@Usernametouse]

Vipassana (directed focus/ attention) is different from letting go/ non-directed attention (nda) mediation (essentially rest without distraction). So ‘adverse’ experiences are actually being allowed to happen during NDAttention… that’s how you understand them & have a natural context. From this place you have a wholistic view & the ‘ego’ / suffering won’t let you go further than you can handle as such. However if some forces their attention to one place for long enough, they can severely suppress the natural flow of emotion & adverse experiences can be very wild. For me there’s really no need for a meditation ‘teacher’. As you only allow yourself the suffering your ready to have unfold at any given point. nda is not to avoid the negative experience, but to allow the ‘weight’ of it to gradually disperse. This can’t be forced. Eg you can’t force a child to be vulnerable, but once they feel safe they’ll naturally release emotion (suffering) in a healthy manner within the environment set by the parent. As the weight of the emotion is dispersed, simply by being allowed to be there & observed, the ‘self’ is experienced (awakening/enlightenment)… it literally feels like lightness, gentleness, very subtle… a wonderful experience like nothing else external can provide in a material sense. For that reason, sleep can become secondary, as it does raising a crying emotional child during the night etc

[@mindfulmoments4956]

The Dalai Lama handled the questions very well! I thought he was so patient and attentive! I also LOVE his answer of the need for people to learn/understand the *broader picture* (the deeper wisdom teachings of the Buddha). The lady is simply *assuming* that engaging in meditation is about enhancing oneself (or ‘inducing’ wellbeing into oneself)! I also really like the Dalai Lama statement ‘the mind has no limits’! In practising mindfulness, we are simply becoming aware of the arising and passing of every mind-state, whether we like these states or not. In other words, we are not getting entangled in (or attaching to) mind states (good/bad) or ruminating on them (thinking this is bad or terrible, etc), but are developing wisdom into our momentary experiences in life.

[@lhawangla4031]

Dalai Lama just drop all the causes and solutions to these meditators....🙏🙏🙏

[@teresal8913]

It sounds like science can't accurately measure what is going on in meditation. It also sound like these meditators are having a very productive mediation experiences but possibly not useful to western work values. It sounds meditation isn't for medical intervention or medical solutions in the west but should be focused more spiritual evolution.

[@johntarzen2228]

His holiness said investigate more... Ask those teachers or meditators if they follow wat Dalai Lama said. Three things in Buddhism.Listening, Viewing and Contemplate. If one of fails to practise one of any these three practices,one will surely faces problem.These three are interconnected.Willy shud ask those people in depth wat is the purpose of meditation n she shud ask buddhist practioners who study n practise their whole life.Enlightnment is far away topic.There is no certificate issued for meditators like Yoga course where you attend one year in yoga course n then you become a yoga course teacher.Here it s about Mind while it s very complicated issue.You need life long practice.A good meditator is calm n never expose his or her experience.Therefore westerners think wenn there is stress or work load,you say relax n don worry.But the Attitude 'I' or the Ego you are not going to leave behind.. So the underlying problem has already been planted there.. For eg You r waiting in line fr sometimes, someone pops up in hurry n ask if he or she can go before you. Think of what comes in mind first , is it 'I' or let go that person... A good meditator mind will say, you go first...

[@gurukhalsa6964]

The west is juvenile in its approach to meditation, trying to catch up as fast as possible without generations of cultural context and societal structures to support these practices. going too hard without guidance, societal awareness of states of consciousness, and support structures will lead to psychotic breaks in certain cases. Perhaps this too occurred with the early practitioners and that is why Indian culture set up a society around guru-student relationships, mythology of experiences, and reverence and caution about the pursuit of the mystical path.

[@truth8307]

I think this is one of the best Dalai Lama answer I see in most of his sessions in recent years. I think he actually felt the lady's ignorance or bias mentality when she said 30 or 40 meditation teachers experiencing problems and she kept dwelling on all the negativities without getting straight to any questions. The Dalai Lama yawned once and the 3 men sitting beside her seem to have unagreeable look while she is talking. If I am the Dalai Lama, I would have asked her, "Have you learned meditation from any teacher or experienced meditation yourself ?"

[@truth8307]

@@nilnil8265 I don't see it this way. I think the Dalai Lama showed great empathy for this woman. BTW, may I know are you a Christian or someone who believes in a god ?

[@davidjohnzenocollins]

She has meditation experience herself. You can learn a bit more about her life and research at her KZbin channel Cheetah House. Also you can go to cheetahhouse.org to find out more. I remember she said that when she was an undergraduate, she was an enthusiastic meditator and she recommended it for everyone. As she got her P.hD., clinical training, and began doing studies, that is when she realized that there can be downsides to meditation; she said that she recognized that she herself had experienced some dissociation from meditation.

[@CeliaTyree]

The ignorance you are showing is much greater. She was an accomplished meditation and had done extensive research on the positives of meditation. Her work is extremely important too, and you should be humble enough to appreciate it.

[@internetstranger3686]

The questions the lady posed are legitimate concerns though? I feel like maybe Dalai Lama doesn't really care about the scientific aspect since he's so far removed from it

[@truth8307]

@@internetstranger3686 no, her questions are illogical without any evidence but just her personal claims. Later I found out from other videos, she is anti Buddhism and anti meditation.

[@metta1773]

This is a conversation between an ignorant person (lady) and the wise Dalai Lama. If someone says that the sun rises in the morning and sets at night - we would say this is true, and no other explanation could be correct. However, if someone observes earth from space, it is possible to realize that the sun stays stationary and it is the earth that moves - this is comparable to understanding something from a very different angle - i.e., *the Dalai Lama is pointing to a deeper view/truth of human experience.*

[@mandareendjes]

Very ironic words coming from a person with metta in its username.

[@michaelnice93]

Don’t make the error of putting any teacher on a pedestal and believing everything they do and say is perfect or good. Interestingly he did not answer the question she posed: Has any of his students had these issues arise.

[@thehiddenyogi8557]

@@michaelnice93 Many of these "issues" are that she is framing as problems are actually the insights Buddhists seek through meditation. And so his answer was perfect: understand the path so you know what you are getting into and what to expect. Buddhism is a map of meditation practice. You can get lost in meditation without the map. Of course he has had students who had a negative reaction to certain insights. They have ways to help that conventional Western culture would not understand. Just being in the presence of a genuine enlightened teacher seems to straighten out any provocations.

[@metta1773]

@@michaelnice93 People I know in the Buddhist community do not have these experiences - this is because in case they do experience meditation related distress, this distress is treated in exactly the same way as any other distress in life (i.e., no matter the origin - ‘distress is distress’!). This is possible because they understand how the mind works (i.e., by developing wisdom into how the present moment manifests). In other words, instead of 'wanting to get rid of' any adverse feelings, they are able to observe these experiences as they are - i.e., observe the true nature of these experiences happening in the present moment, etc.

[@analuisabastossousa1]

Oh, right! Coming from a man that likes to suck kid's tongues. And you can listen to other interviews with him. Arrogant AF!

[@uteruskids2000]

The Dalai Lama's response does seem disappointing here, but I don't think the gravity of the work is clear in this presentation. I've heard Dr. Britton talk about her work, recently on the Tim Ferris podcast among others, but it seems the gravity of the problem is not clear here. I don't mean to lay any blame here as it's likely that this is a formal meeting with expectations to discuss the methodology and results, but the level of academic discourse here about "impairment in functioning," even thought it's mentioned that some had to be hospitalized doesn't convey the distress of, for example, Ferriss" experience of reliving a memory of traumatic abuse on loop in his brain. I imagine, or at least hope, that the Dalai Lama would have a different response to someone still experience these traumatic perceptions who came to him for help, but the descriptions of adverse effects here sound like common general experiences in deep meditation experience. I'm not saying that Dr. Britton's work is not incredibly important and necessary to help those in serious danger and need of mental health resources, but the adverse effects described here sound like descriptions of experiences I've already read about as signs of approaching a recognition of true nature, rather than descriptions of harrowing experiences that I've heard from Dr. Britton elsewhere. For example, the flashing of perceptual experience at a manic rate sounds like a description of the "arising and passing away" (A&P) from the Theravada tradition that Daniel Ingram describes quite plainly. Also, the experience of a loss of a perceiver sounds like recognizing emptiness, which is part of the goal of "recognizing your true nature." It's the goal in practices like Zen. This makes his response for meditators to know the conceptual understanding and goal to be motivated for meditating as fundamental make sense, but the presentation doesn't seem to clearly enough emphasize the psychological trauma they experienced. The Dalai Lama is relying on a translator here and likely doesn't understand the cultural knowledge of a psychiatric hospitalization of a diagnosis of schizophrenia, at least he may not.

[@lizlanman47]

He speaks English. I don't know what the deal is with the "translator."

[@derbestimmer1148]

You talk a lot. The problem is not meditation. The problem are bad practice and the generlly broken minds of people. The can't handle their negative emotions anymore, they can't accept their inner shadows. This to a degree, that they lose it when they quiet down their compensating thoughts and inner banter and get a glimpse of what is inside them.