Damsel: The Trope of Subverting Tropes

[@misseli1]

At this point sticking to old tropes and ignoring chances to subvert them will be considered subversive in and of itself

[@samseward1374]

That’s exactly how I design dnd characters I play.

[@IsThisThePrizeIveWaitedFor]

I think there’s a reason tropes came to be in the first place. The first time those stories were told, they spoke to us as humans. So those stories got told over and over with different skins. Subverting tropes is fun for the unexpectedness, but if subversion becomes the norm, it loses its charm and ultimately feels empty and cynical. I would love to start seeing more “old fashioned” story telling again. It’ll remind us why certain tropes can be so satisfying.

[@marhawkman303]

@@IsThisThePrizeIveWaitedFor Tropes are a way to do a story telling shortcut. If you as a writer say people "got in a car" you don't NEED to explain what a car is to the reader. this is the same logic behind tropes. You invoke the trope to avoid having to EXPLAIN the trope.

[@msjkramey]

Subverting tropes is as old as the tropes are. The most famous example I can think of was that "I am no man" moment from Lord of the Rings (100 years ago), which in itself was inspired by a subversion originally done by Shakespeare (400 years ago). Subverting or playing on your expectations isn't new either

[@marhawkman303]

@@msjkramey This is because a lot of tropes are also counterbalances to other tropes. making the audience guess WHICH trope you're actually using is a way to make them wonder.

[@zahrsa1g]

If the blood ritual is enough to trick the dragon, why do the victims have to be from other royal families and not just kidnapped peasants?

[@lacolem1]

Right? Make it a sadistic lottery like Hunger Games. Or convince girls to volunteer with riches and fame if she kills the dragon and escapes. Both are better feminist fantasies

[@nicoleg2544]

@lacolem1 see this one would actually be super cool because if this was viewed as some elite test of strength that only women could partake in then these women could possibly be trained from birth which would make the whole super powered fighting woman make sense in universe rather than a lady picks up a sword for the first time and can suddenly wield it like a seasoned expert

[@vlo4829]

@@nicoleg2544 She chopped fire wood at the beginning, remember? That was the signal that she's "strong" and can do manstuff like using a sword. If a woman can learn one manstuff, she is granted the ability to perform ALL manstuff.

[@MegaKnight2012]

​@@lacolem1 Women put into a lottery to be fed to a dragon to appease it has already been done in a fantasy movie, the 80s classic, Dragon Slayer. (Spoilers) That one has the princess fill the lottery with her own name once she discovers her father kept her out of it. The hero tries to save her but the princess walks into the dragon's den because she believes she has to be sacrificed, maybe to atone for her father's unfair rulings. Inside, she is eaten by the dragon's spawn. The king had intended to sacrifice maidens, only girls, buying time, until the dragon died of age, but he instead helped spawn more evil which killed his favored child.

[@bored0886]

If we go with tropes, royalty is usually bound by duty that's why even the most evil nobles in a fantasy story will always go to war for the kingdom... So I could say it's the royal family duty to appease the dragon because it's their mistake to carry

[@officerbucktuddrussel394]

I love how we're supposed to view the dragon as an innocent victim because of what happened to her babies....while never questioning why the king and his men were hunting her in the first place nor think to hard about the hundreds of innocent girls over the centuries that it killed and the countless more it would have kept killing if Elodie hadn't put 2 and 2 together.

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

The dragon is the "poor misunderstood villain" modern-trope.

[@joeandre8100]

The dragon did claim to have done nothing to instigate the kings attack. So I guess we just take her word for it.

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

@@thagomizer8485 You're probably right, but I don't buy it. I know that I'd need one heck of a good reason to go hunt a dragon... or, well, any sentient creature... but, *especially* a dragon.

[@thrrax]

For the riches, duh... Dragons are gold hoarders.

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

@@thrrax Okay... but gold isn't worth much when you've been deleted by the angry dragon. I'd need a better reason, especially against a peaceful dragon. Much worse than poking a bear. I'd expect the same thing to be true of any person of decent morals and a modicum of common sense.

[@greentiger332]

The concept of a Virgin Girl Sacrifice is that under normal circumstances women were considered so precious (due to their ability to give birth) that men would risk their very lives to ensure the safety of the women and children, a male sacrifice is unheard of because men were expected to go off and risk their lives as a matter of course (drive off a hungry predator, fight a rival tribe, hunt in the middle of a terrible storm). The concept of sacrificing a woman (especially one who hasn't gotten married or given birth) was so extreme it was reserved for situations that no other option was available. The Virgin Sacrifice is a sign of either pure evil (killing women for personal power or enrichment) or pure desperation (the dragon won't let us leave and is requiring the sacrifice).

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

Take it one step further... Girlboss - "I don't need no man." ==> Man thinks, "why should I risk so much as a chipped fingernail for a woman?" We may very well up, in the near future, as a society that treats women like we treat men... equality.

[@melchiorlise2466]

​@@Nyet-ZdyesI think when women say they "don't need men", they mean they do not need to be in a relationship with a man for protection, which they shouldn't. But women need men, just like men need women.

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

@@melchiorlise2466 That might be what some of them mean... but a lot of them mean "worthless" when they say that. "Worthless" is also one of the more polite insults that they use. The "nicer" ones claim to be all about equality... and yet some of those who claim to be about equality opposed something so harmless as an "International Men's Day", which reveals the underlying truth.

[@vidmikes]

Damsel means an unmarried woman. The protagonist gets married in the first 15 minutes of the movie. The “writers” were too lazy to even look up the title in the dictionary.

[@kevinmccabe7263]

This is a great catch 😂

[@LazyReaderKanon]

lmao🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@radioflyer68911]

Their like minded target audience is just as ignorant as they are.

[@TheGraemi]

That's another subversion.

[@palkinator]

Oof

[@jeremyusreevu237]

Remember when subversion was actually clever, and not just creating new tropes to reuse over and over again? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

[@gregowen2022]

I 'member!

[@MrDj232]

Weebs remember. We don't ever shut up about how great Madoka Magica is.

[@robonator2945]

Yeah I forgot that too to be honest. When My Hero Academia *_actually_* did subversion (or even stranger, when they *_didn't_* subvert anything and just had heros being actual heros, and yet that *_felt_* like a subversion) and it actually added something it was genuinely a weird sensation. I'm not a weeb in any sense but I feel like very 'western' politics, and more generally cultural movements, are just destroying a lot of potentially great stories. For instance, as much as I love -Lawrence Barnes- Prophet as a character, god I hope we never have a movie or show adaptation of Crysis. I just *_know_* his story would be taken from "badass guy who gets shit done when military op goes wrong and eventually has to make the ultimate sacrifice in the process, losing everything he is and has to act as humanity's first and last line of defense" to constantly whining and whinging. You just can't have interesting characters interacting in interesting ways when you see the world through such simplistic lenses.

[@dikhed1983]

Hell, Shrek remembers

[@Bahr-im7pn]

@@dikhed1983 As does Puss in Boots.

[@PumpkinSwag]

Damsel is what happens when the selling point of your movie is what it isn't rather than what it is. When you think in terms of what is "bad" rather than understanding why it's "bad." If you just think "woman being rescued is bad," then you think that her saving herself is enough to make the movie good. If you understand the WHY, which is that damsels in distress were often undercooked and glorified plot devices, then you can give them an actual personality, give them a reason to be kidnapped other than "so the hero can rescue her," or if they rescue themselves you can give them a good movtivation that makes you want to see them succeed. Shrek subverts the damsel in distress much better because they knew to do more with Fiona than just give her an action scene and call it a day.

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

YES. Damselling a character is a totally valid way to build drama. You just have to make it make sense and have the character exist for reasons other than to be damselled. Once you've done that basic bit of groundwork, which you should already be doing for every part of your story by default, it's loads of fun for the writer and the audience, a great way to add in some tension, and a great way to add in some really good feels.

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

Yes! Damseling is a totally valid thing to do with your characters. You just have to make it make sense and make sure the character doesn't only exist to be damseled, which you should be doing for every part of your story already anyway. Once you've laid out that basic groundwork, it's tons of fun for both writer and audience, a great way to add in some tension, and a great way to add in some really good feels.

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

Yes! Damseling is a totally valid thing to do with your characters. You just have to make it make sense and make sure the character doesn't only exist to be damseled, which you should be doing for every part of your story already anyway. Once you've laid out that basic groundwork, it's tons of fun for both writer and audience, a great way to add in some tension, and a great way to add in some really good feels.

[@jeremymullens7167]

It honestly just depends on your story and your focus. Not every character needs a story. Maybe the damsel is just there to show the heroics of the protagonist. She might not need much work if the hero moves on and she’s never brought up again. Now I don’t think that’s the best choice just an option and you should just make decisions that service the best story. Loads of villains get 0 characterization. Shows will go so far as to give them masks. Sometimes the bad guy is just a bad guy. And sometimes the bad guy is the leader of a group with actual grievances and kisses his baby before facing the hero. Complexity in general is good. There is over complexity though. Getting too into the weeds. Does the neighbor need a full backstory even though they’re not part of the plot?

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

@@jeremymullens7167 Absolutely a good point. Minor characters can show up, move the plot along and be gone, and it's not necessarily a flaw. I think the point, then, is that in general, if you're writing a major character, they should have in-world reasons for existing other than "just to further the plot." And the minor characters who further the plot should at least make sense.

[@Bopperann]

Expectation: Princess has to find clever ways to survive/kill a dragon. Maybe turns into a savage in the process. Reality: Girl befriends the evil remorseless dragon that killed her father and they go burn some strawmen.

[@msjkramey]

Gray antiheroes aren't some new invention. Growing up Zuko and Uncle Iroh were some of my favorite characters because they were complicated "bad guys." Aang ends up befriending them despite starting out as enemies and they team up to defeat the Firelord Or is it just a bad thing when a female character does it?

[@Bopperann]

@@msjkramey The dragon felt no remorse for the many she murdered over the centuries. The dragon killed the girl's father. This dragon took pleasure in torturing the other girls to their deaths. She is irredeemable. Making one or both of these "characters" male would not improve their likability.

[@thetruthlies7]

​@@msjkrameyAtleast Zuko had some form of a redemption arc lol. Why do people always use The Last Airbender as their go-to card?

[@msjkramey]

@@thetruthlies7 because it was really good? Why not talk about it?

[@Quincy_Morris]

@@msjkrameyimagine comparing avatar to this. Zuko never genocided a hundred princesses. If he did then we wouldn’t like him being befriended without consequence.

[@johnpaulcross424]

“His entire filmography is but a candle next to the Sun of this movie’s twists and turns” I’ve expired 💀

[@ricardogoncalves164]

That's a story from the Grimm brothers, where a prince comes to take a girl (commoner) to be his princess, but her sister becomes jealous, killing her. She seduces the prince e becomes his chosen one, leaving her home to his faraway kingdom, only to discover she was chosen to be dinner for the family. I didn't have the courage to watch this movie. Thank you for taking a bullet for us.

[@sarasunshinemt4444]

The original Grimm fairy tales could be quite gruesome. I remember one about this woman who is engaged to a king of thieves, doesn't know it, until she follows him one night to his hideout and watches as he and his gang DISMEMEBER their victims and she ends up with a finger in her lap, which she uses later in the story to condemn him. I read that one when I was around 10, I think.

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

@@sarasunshinemt4444 Really? I shall have to try and find that one.

[@PlanetCharnBaby]

What was that story called? I gotta read it.

[@sarasunshinemt4444]

@@PlanetCharnBaby I think maybe The Bride and the Highwayman? Maybe? It's been 30+ years since I read it.

[@MegaKnight2012]

When people say, not like other fairy tales, it makes me think, so they're not super dark and full of violence?

[@enkiduthewildman]

Also, I think we should all take a moment to thank Jennifer Lawrence for pioneering the idea of women in movies. None of us would be here today if she hadn't shown us the way.

[@gregowen2022]

She was the first, lol. All hail Jennifer!

[@613harbinger316]

Ok. I never followed up on that story. Was she actually serious when she said that or was she referring to something else? How does an actress not know even the basic history of her own industry?

[@MegaKnight2012]

​@@613harbinger316 She has been spotted inhaling mind-altering substances, so that could warp her perception of reality

[@missAlice1990]

@@613harbinger316 Maybe she knows it but thinks people are dumb and she wants all the glory of being "the first woman" so she simply lies.

[@RH1812]

Or Kathryn Hepburn

[@asaka616]

subverting tropes is so overplayed now it is the tropiest trope of modern entertainment.

[@freshmoor9357]

"Tropertainment"

[@smeissner328]

But, but, Rian Johnson told me that subverting expectations IS good writing! For example, why write a villain with believable backstory and motivations when you can just...NOT write any of that? And then tell people, "Ha! You're stupid because you thought the villain would have a backstory and motivations! Expectations subverted! Screenwriting!"

[@gloriathomas3245]

So should we start going back to perpetuate stereotypes that are actually harmful?

[@mateobareo4229]

The best way to be a non-conformist these days is to be what a conformist was twenty years ago lol

[@cpdreyer]

Netflix Producers: "Hey Millie Bobbie Brown, I know people were annoyed with Enola Holmes sullying Sherlock as barely competent and Mycroft as an insufferable prude in pursuit of In Your Face Grrl Power Cringe but what if we do mostly the same thing but with like dragons and swords?" MBB: "You son of a bee sting. I'm in."

[@LazyReaderKanon]

The sarcasm is strong in this video. I love it!

[@Whookieee]

At this point a boy meets girl love story with a strong male lead would be the ultimate subversion

[@amyj4283]

We dont need more subversion

[@jasonglebe3235]

What if the twist was that the damsels were never in any danger. That the dragon was raising the sacrificed girls as replacements for her children.

[@dragonmaster1360]

@jasonglebe3235 Now THIS would have been an interesting idea. Instead of killing the kingdom's daughters, the dragon is literally replacing her dead children with the princesses. Would have been a hell of a twist, with potentialffor more stories in the future. Imagine they become leaders of kingdoms? Dragon now has a larger dominion, more potential for shenanigans.

[@RoninCatholic]

And that the time between demanded "sacrifices" is a few decades, demanding new princesses only when the old ones die off as human lifespans are much shorter than dragons. She'll keep doing this until around the age her "real" daughters would have left the nest.

[@davidandrews5392]

Yeah that would have been a much better movie. Makes you wonder how this writers still have jobs?

[@missAlice1990]

That could be an interesting twist but the dragon shouldn't be redeemed anyway. Kidnapping and imprisoning someone is still a terrible thing to do regardless of how kidnapper treats the victim.

[@playedit0ut290]

That's too difficult for those writers to come up with.

[@radioflyer68911]

You don't even have to watch a trailer to know a movie is garbage. Just the fact that a major studio made it is enough now.

[@gregowen2022]

It's a sad time for the movie loving audience. Where do we turn when 99% of what hits screens is barely worthy as background noise?

[@williamwalton9154]

​@@gregowen2022anime

[@MirandaSinistra]

The Writers: If you ignore all the evil acts the dragon has committed then you can see why she's really the victim in this story.

[@1Katakana]

That, along with the fact that this dragon was fooled into thinking that all these women were royals by them having the prince's blood pressed against their own/wound for a few seconds/minutes, as if the rest of them/their blood wouldn't still very much smell like themselves/their real family. Heck, main character little sister gets offered up instead after main character escapes, and the dragon keeps her sister alive, cause she can smell that the two are siblings, but she apperently can't smell that they don't have any blood ties to the royal family apart from the small amount of blood from the very "front" of their cut!

[@MyShiroyuki]

They cannot understand that evil acts don't become good just because you were wronged. Evil committed in response to evil is still evil.

[@thechuckjosechannel.2702]

Netflix: subverting all Tropes in order to appease "Modern Audiences."

[@gregowen2022]

What's sad is that the modern audience obviously just wants to be spoon fed easy-to-binge content that can be watched in the background while they scroll. This movie fits the bill quite well

[@normsti000]

A modern audience that won't actually go to their movies.

[@thechuckjosechannel.2702]

@@gregowen2022 it sure does.

[@williamjones3534]

​@@gregowen2022 what fantasy series would I want to see or or hell to the nawl don't touch? That's a tough one. They already thoroughly profained WOT so much that I feel compelled in the future to put out a video on how I would have adapted it. They also took a Cleveland steamer on Anne Rice "The vampire Chronicles" by turning the problematic white slave owner to a DL black pimp and taking books that clearly didn't have enough gay subtext and made it more gay for the modern audience. I guess the one I'm iffy about is the adaptation of Stephen King's "the dark tower series". I mean we already had a YA version that was hot 🔥 trash but there is a guy who seems to want to do his magnum opus proper.

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

@@gregowen2022 I think you missed the target with the "subverting tropes"... but just barely. Most of these things have become their *own* tropes. Instead, it's about pushing... THE MESSAGE. In this case, it's about "breaking gender stereotypes", which is "part and parcel" of The Message. The queen tells the father about the sacrifice because... it's how they make him into a "bad dad"... the evil patriarchy. The whole "bad dad" thing has been part of the message for a long time... and also a trope.

[@madambutterfly1997]

That's not how a dowry works usually the bride's family is the one paying the dowry

[@KathyH684]

Exactly. If anything, it should be called the bride price. But that's not politically correct.

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

@@KathyH684 Ironically... the idea that a family would pay for a bride... as if a bride had a positive value. (Edit - that was sarcasm... "ironically".)

[@KathyH684]

@@Nyet-Zdyes There is a great deal of positive value that a bride has, let's get that out of the way. And traditionally there have been bride prices in addition to dowries. Dowries would often be given to the daughter in case something went south, and bride prices were a way of showing that the husband actually wanted to marry her. As well as a way to offer the family something in return for the "loss" of a daughter. Is it politically correct? No. Does it sound really bad according to modern standards? Of course it does! But we've got to realize that history is messy.

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

@@KathyH684 I *did* say, "ironically". Thank you for taking the time to explain some of the reason that the modern perception is ironic. Yes, that is part of what I meant.

[@NefariousKoel]

In such traditions, fathers were expected to pay for the care of their daughters at the appropriate family status until the daughter got married. Then the husband was expected to take care of her. As part of that switch, the father would give the groom an appropriate amount to help continue that. It was all about changing financial burdens in the respective families.

[@markvargus6519]

I agree with so much of Greg's analysis. Especially how the attempt to subvert the tropes ended up turning the movie into a collection of tropes with no real character development. What's funny is that I know of two very good fantasy novels that involve a princess requiring rescue that don't have her just be a damsel in a dress. The first was the first of 5 books in the Forest Kingdom series by Simon Green called Blue Moon Rising. It has Prince Rupert sent off by his kingdom to rescue a princess only do discover that the dragon is a pacifist who welcomes the Prince and wants to turn over the princess as a way to get rid of her. That happens very early in the tale but is an important plot point because Prince Rupert was sent off to either die (as he was the second son.) or to bring back a dragon's horde to help save the kingdom from a demonic threat (sadly the dragon's hoard was all butterflies, it didn't collect gold or gems.) The second is the first book in Patricia C Wrede's Enchanted Forest Chronicles appropriately enough titled Dealing with Dragons. In this one the Princess Cimorene isn't happy living in a rather rigid court that complies with the fantasy tropes that the movie Greg reviewed tried to subvert. But in Dealing with Dragons, its the princess who goes to the dragon, as she decides that if she can live with a dragon it will free her from the court. A number of fun hijinks ensue and the characters of Cimorene and Kazul are fully fleshed out and fun, far from the disaster it sounds like this movie created. But that's because these writers worked hard to write full tales with plot, character and a logic that required a true foundation to everything. Damsel clearly is just a movie where a girlboss goes out to show that she don't need no man, which left it with no story to tell or character to explore.

[@JoelAdamson]

Just like the Wheel of Time show, many of these streaming movies wouldn't get past a high school writing group.

[@gregowen2022]

Right?! These are mistakes that freshman college courses warn against!

[@MrGrumblier]

@@gregowen2022 These are all just power fantasies. The "writers" are projecting themselves as the main character. I am not surprised that the writer got his MFA at UCLA. UCLA is second only to Berkley as the Vatican of the Church of Intersectionality. Dan's social credit score must be exemplary.

[@palkinator]

The absolute worst part of this movie, aside from the DRAGON not being immune to its own DRAGONFIRE, is that the Damsel didn't even really save herself. If her father didn't show up to literally toss her a line, she would have died in that cave. Doesn't exactly fit with the overall theme(?) of the movie.

[@hey_mickey1981]

Yes thank you, I’ve been looking for this comment! I don’t see how she would have succeeded if it wasn’t for her father sacrificing his life to save her.

[@RM_VFX]

​@hey_mickey1981 Hey, that's at least progress. If this was a Disney IP, there's no way a man would be allowed to help her.

[@TedEhioghae]

hadn't showed up*

[@palkinator]

@@TedEhioghae Thank you for that absolutely necessary comment that fueled the conversation. I wish you a lovely toe-stubbing the next time you pass a coffee table.

[@ohiasdxfcghbljokasdjhnfvaw4ehr]

you seem to be imagining what the theme is, no one said the whole point was subversion, except angry youtubers

[@christophertaylor9100]

There is a place in writing for that kind of thing, like turning the Knight Saves The Princess From The Dragon into, say, the Princess saves the Dragon from the Knight. If you can do it cleverly and interestingly, you have a fun book. But the key here is why you're doing it. Do it because you have a story to tell and found a way to turn the twist into something entertaining instead of just being the twist.

[@amyj4283]

Perhaps we are in need of less stories that are ironic in nature. Less stories that are trying to be clever and subversive and more stories that affirm the true good and beautiful.

[@christophertaylor9100]

@@amyj4283 Especially today, I agree. We've been inundated with satirical, sneering deconstructions for 30+ years, maybe its time for some straight forward truth.

[@msjkramey]

​@amyj4283 yeah, remember that awful twist when Darth Vader was Luke's father? Or when Bruce Willis was dead the whole time during 6th Sense? Those modern movies sure are terrible and new!

[@iprobablyforgotsomething]

@msjkramey -- they said "less" not "none". It'd be nice to have more variety again, and given the lousy times we're all having in general between Covid and the economy, I know I'd like it if the feel-good, comfort-food type movies category wasn't so sparsley populated as it is now in comparison to other genres.

[@msjkramey]

@@iprobablyforgotsomething if you spent more time looking for them instead of overinflated the importance of movies like this, then you'd probably be a lot happier. The only people who even talked about this movie were the people crying over how "woke" it is

[@mallorycarpinski1160]

I love how they had her taking apart her dress to "dismantle the princess trope" just to have her end up looking like a pr0stitut3 at the end😅

[@Shineinpoverty]

Well, a lot of activists today are not strangers to that profession. Look at what we became, a nation whose loudest voices are prostitutes...

[@svetlanaandrasova6086]

Lmao sexist Hollywood never changes😂

[@MegaKnight2012]

Somehow, looking like a prostitute feels like obeying the trope of how so many royalty behaved like them, like at Henry VIII'S court, or the Chinese concubines

[@jazmineraymond7495]

It looks like a normal dress, that's your sexism showing.

[@seg162]

@@jazmineraymond7495 You don't know what "sexism" means.

[@S_raB]

The Hero's journey - a tale as old as time & the trope of all tropes... "This is not one of those stories"

[@MrGrumblier]

A movie to entertain and awe the viewer with its depth of character and engrossing story. "This is not one of those stories."

[@DaddyDynastic]

Also, the movie expects me to see the Dragon is not evil despite the fact that she's been killing three innocent women in regular intervals for over a century you can argue she didn't know that these girls weren't related to the king, but even if they were, what does this have to do with them? Also, if this is an eye for an eye type deal, she should have been done after killing the first three. How long does she plan on carrying out her revenge? It's been over a century We're not even going to bring up the fact that she let that Dragon destroy a castle with Lord knows how many innocent bystanders despite they're only being 3 guilty people

[@msjkramey]

Exploring "sins of the father" can be interesting and is very topical

[@DaddyDynastic]

@msjkramey it can when you think about the inherent futility of it, but the movie makes no comment on that They can't expect me to sympathize with this dragon or care about its motivation when it's been so sadistically killing all these innocent girls who would have been innocent regardless She's a little more than a sentient curse who is at bare minimum the root cause of the royal families' evil Every day that thing lives She proves killing her children before they can grow into sadistic vindictive monsters like her. Was a good, if not brutal, call

[@mallorycarpinski1160]

Yes!!!! Pitch Meeting reference!!! This is the crossover I needed!

[@lasercraft32]

I like how they try to paint the dragon as some tragic and sympathetic character, as if it wasn't the dragon's idea to sacrifice and murder 3 princesses periodically every few years, just because her babies were killed. Its like if Thanos was actually a good guy because he's doing it for the "good cause" of preventing overpopulation...

[@RoninCatholic]

A lot of people in Marvel's target demographic unironically think Thanos was "the hero" of the MCU because they agree with both his motives and his methods.

[@lasercraft32]

@@RoninCatholic That's messed up...😬

[@Papamarmottin]

Glad to see you again, Greg! I won't see this, and thanks for showing me why I shouldn't have.

[@gregowen2022]

I appreciate you hanging out with me instead!

[@MumRah]

I agree Greg, it could have been interesting. In fact i saw the preview and thought that I'd give it a try but then i read a little about it and nope. All i can say is thanks for suffering through this so we didn't have to. 😅

[@TheoLogic235]

I just found out that an adaptation of T.A. Barron's Merlin Saga has been in the works for a while now. I loved those books growing up and was super excited when I read the article until I saw the part that said Disney was making it, and now I hope it never sees the light of day.

[@gregowen2022]

It's so sad that Disney being attached to a product is now a sign of it being terrible. Oh, how the mighty have fallen

[@AudraLandis]

Daily Wire has a Camelot series coming up. I think.

[@msjkramey]

​@@AudraLandisand you trust THEM not to make it political? Lol

[@Polgaraswit44]

Waaay back, after seeing Lord of the Rings, I wanted to see The Belgariad and the Malloreon done. Now, I hope and pray that they never are.

[@Quincy_Morris]

“Static damsels who only need rescuing are weak characters” WRONG Most people can’t rescue themselves. But that doesn’t make them bad people or weak characters.

[@Off-Brand_Devin]

I want a movie where the dashing prince learns of a damsel in distress and says, "Well, I really wouldn't want to give reinforce the stereotype that a woman's purpose in life is to wait for some man to come save her, so I'll just let her sort this one out on her own."

[@themostbestwizard]

Even expecting it to be bad, I was shocked by the fact that they expect you to sympathize with a dragon that deliberately murdered innocent people. Even Rebel Moon was morally rooted enough to figure out that the dragon's excuse was indefensible.

[@Rockstar-bq5fm]

Cowboy Ninja Viking sounds like one of my unfocused fever dreams

[@robertsaunders9733]

My wife watched this movie and she loved it. This is why we rarely watch TV together.

[@michaelschroeck2254]

Can I like this comment more than once?!

[@WarFoxThunder]

bruh💀

[@greer504]

Same. My gf was so invested and thought it was such a clever movie. I just sat there wondering wondering how I’m with her.

[@grantstratton2239]

Do you remember how Star Wars always used to suggest that the Dark Side was a kind of shortcut to power that wasn't worth the price, and wasn't always good at showing us why and how that was true? Hollywood pushing out a bunch of crappy shows that check the right boxes have done a really, super admirable job showing us how that works.

[@dikhed1983]

Tip: if Shrek did it 20 years ago, *maybe* it's not revolutionary...

[@nicholascollins4907]

I love how they say, “This is no fairy tale.” When plot-wise it’s hardly that different from Blue Beard. It just goes to show that there are no new stories and no amount of subversion will make anything new.

[@pallasdiana4206]

When people say that, you can tell their only reference is Disney.

[@nicholascollins4907]

@@pallasdiana4206 it’s like the people writing stories these days don’t like stories.

[@JettStreamLiveClips]

Damn it he got me with the like button again.

[@LastBastian]

*LOVE* Brandon Sanderson! Used to dream about how amazing it would be to see the Mistborn trilogy on the big screen! ...but now I know in my heart that if adapted today, it would end up a soul crushing pile of burning garbage. 😢

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

I wanna see the Stormlight Archive get turned into a TV series, like Game of Thrones. Except I think it should be animated (the world is so alien and the magic system so dramatic that the amount of CGI needed for a live-action version would essentially make it animated anyway. Plus I just like animation, especially 2D) and I think Brandon Sanderson should review every episode before it gets made. It could be so awesome.

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

I wanna see an animated Stormlight show :)

[@LastBastian]

@@ceinwenchandler4716 Stormlight series is fantastic too! Huge though! That would definitely make a great ongoing animated series *if done right.* Already enough material for quite a few seasons I'd say!

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

@@LastBastian Oh, so you _can_ see my replies... I thought KZbin was hiding them. Sorry about the redundancy (sheepish grin). Yeah, there's tons of material, and it would be so cool to actually _see_ the spren and everything. Honestly, my biggest worry would be that there's too much material - that it would be very difficult to adapt without accidentally cutting vital foreshadowing. (Hence why Sanderson would need to be heavily involved in the writing if such a show were made before book ten came out - I mean, imagine if someone had tried to adapt Mistborn before Hero of Ages. Good chance they'd never mention Vin's earring.) If done right. Yeah, _heavy_ emphasis on that part.

[@ChimeraArchive]

The biggest thing about that would be ensuring that Sanderson had final say on *all* of the decisions made on set. That's part of why the One Piece adaptation didn't become another corpse on the pile

[@kathyp1563]

Loved your description of the potential of this story. I agree with you, now that you laid it out. There was definitely potential if the writer had any skills.

[@omegaman2846]

As a kid, I always wanted an adaptation of Artemis Fowl. That is, until I got it. Thanks Disney plus😒

[@gregowen2022]

Oof, that one was rough. For some of my kids, that was their first "the book is better" moment. It was hard to watch them realize that most adaptations are terrible

[@mallorycarpinski1160]

I definitely saw that Pro KZbinr Move coming, Greg.... but it still worked😊

[@gregowen2022]

You know me too well. Doesn't matter, got liked!

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

The show doesn't dive into those other angles... because it wasn't made to tell you a story. It exists primarily to push The Message. (And, of course, for the cast and crew to get a payday.)

[@NefariousKoel]

I've heard that, in recent years, the easiest way to get your script approved is to have a female protag and girl-boss it. Some writers have even said that publishers practically demand it and push for them to change it. That's where creative fiction has been for awhile now, and it shows. It's easy to see everywhere. Gross overcompensation ever since me-2 happened. Guilty consciences and paranoia in the business hit the accelerator and here we are. Bland creations being pushed to the front due to the pre-approved checkboxing.

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

@@NefariousKoel I've heard that some studios, game companies, etc., *require* that the project subverts gender stereotypes, etc. Among other things, it leads to Mary Sues. Also, the "search for a paycheck" and Mary Sues, might lead to authors not caring about the characters, and thus not wanting to delve into them or their motivations, etc., any more than is absolutely required.

[@amyj4283]

⁠@@Nyet-Zdyes Normativity has been relabeled “stereotypes” to better smear the normative as really marginal and trivial. Problem is “both sides” accept this smear, so now the problem with stories is that they are not “clever enough”.

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

@@amyj4283 Fair enough, but only if you consider "stereotype" to *be* a smear. I don't. For example, I think that "feminine woman" is a compliment, not a smear... and "masculine man" is also a compliment. Stereotypes are based on pattern recognition. Pattern recognition is a sign of intelligence, not the opposite. Of course, they can also be subjective, and mistaken, but they can also be *correct*

[@Nanomano2864]

Alright screw it. I'M naming the dragon, her name is Victoria. There ya go. At least the dragon looks cool.

[@gregowen2022]

Oooooh! Victoria was one of the previous princesses who made the map! What if the dragon actually WAS victoria and the hints and clues are just part of the sadistic torture?!

[@Nanomano2864]

@@gregowen2022 I genuinely had no idea. I didn't even watch the movie. I just like the name, it sounds fancy.

[@Shineinpoverty]

Elixira, her name is Elixira

[@captainjumptoast]

You're a little late to the Damsel party... but I'm a Gregular, so I'm here for it. WOOOOOO! That black mage in your background is absolutely magnificent.

[@mallorycarpinski1160]

Greg really committing to this bit. Love it.

[@SufringDuckie505]

I love these videos. Very appropriately dissects the problems of the new movies that “challenge” old ideals. Makes me feel less crazy when I talk about it with my friends. Keep up the amazing work!!!

[@bestbytes-x3v]

this movie proves the current or this generation writers' intelligence. With such skill, we are expecting more movies like this for the next few years, and thanks to the studio generosity to continue funding this type of movie.

[@laynelowder4294]

I think the Monster Hunter International book series has potential for adaptation to an episodic TV series. Good potential for a monster of the week story structure that explores how a truly modern society would handle supernatural events.

[@gregowen2022]

That does sound like a good one!

[@christophertaylor9100]

As long as they go with vignettes instead yet another 9000 page mega story.

[@laynelowder4294]

@christophertaylor9100 I think so too. If they would keep it episodic only build more on the MHI universe and not go fully in the Owen Pitt "Chosen One" storyline. I think they could make something that is a return to somewhat connected modern sci-fi like the X-Files.

[@613harbinger316]

Like make it a series of bedtime stories for the kids about how great-grampa Bubba and his family took on monsters throughout history.

[@laynelowder4294]

@@613harbinger316 I'm smelling a PBS edu-tanment animated series.

[@mechgouki7999]

You need a "super easy, barely an inconvenience" in a pitch meeting! What kind of pitch meeting doesn't have that!?

[@mayam3857]

The opening prep talk given to us in the beginning of the movie reminds me of basic hooks I was taught to use for essays in middle school. Then, high school taught me that they were shallow and that I need to work on depth, just like Damsel

[@dewulfe9913]

"hey shut up" ....intsant like right there for the Pitch Meeting meme, you know what I'm saying?

[@sarasunshinemt4444]

I sincerely hope that Hollywood never, EVER gets its hands on the works of Tamara Pierce. I love her books; she manages to do the girl boss thing but realistically, particularly in the Protector of the Small series and the duo of Trickster's Choice and Trickster's Queen.

[@CaveFreediving]

Thanks Greg, please continue breaking down the problem with Hollywood. Everyone should have higher standards.

[@leandronc]

Love that you took it seriously enough to show the concept could be salvaged. Sci-fi and fantasy are my favorite genres, and I think they are great fits for animations, lower budget, less pressure, no bad CG, no cutting content to cut costs. Give me a Bloodsworn Saga anime like Castlevania!

[@mrbigglezworth42]

We're at the point where it would be a subversion of tropes if there really WAS a valiant prince that came to save the damsel and slay the dragon.

[@egoborder3203]

"This isn't your daddy's fantasy story!" Yeah cuz that one was popular and made money

[@blottedcenter4348]

The inclusion of Ryan’s pitch meetings warms my heart

[@TheLateral18]

I started laughing when she was thrown off the casm and survives... Not even breaking a nail 😂

[@russelljconquerslifehawkey]

Just because you asked I hit the like button

[@VirtuesOfSin]

I've read three Manwha that had this same opening premise. Two of them, the dragon became a daddy. The third, the dragon became a lover.

[@SteveClark1412]

Thank you for pointing out Sanderson as an example of fantasy done right. Stormlight 5 this fall!!

[@b3rz3rk3r9]

Over the years, I used to like Trope subversions, but that quickly went from like to Loathe as more of these stories came out, simply because kobidy can subvert tropes correctly anymore. People think that the act of subverting tropes is all you need to be called genius, which is insultingly lazy. No, just because the princess saves herself does not mean that it's genius; especially when many people before us have done so and done it better. Ever After and Enchanted come to mind. In fact, Greg, when you were looking for anime recommendations, I did recommend Ranking of Kings because its a charming and fun story that actually does build up and reason out its twists; honestly to a fault at times. I'd give an example but the stiry requires these twists and I refuse spoiling this anime; and one of the few modern dubs I can wholly and honestly recommend the dub.

[@sonyyung5510]

What's crazy is that the subversion of the whole Damsel trope has already been done before and done better. Just look as movies like Tangled or anime like Sleeping Princess in the Demon Castle. They cleverly subvert your expectations of the Damsel trope, while either actually telling a good story or just being funny in a sort of spoof movie kind of way. Damsel does none of those things, so it was dead on arrival.

[@613harbinger316]

Being a representation of feminist anger and resentment isn't enough to hold a story together. Just like real life feminists (at least the more extreme ones), anger and resentment can't support a movement forever. It will fall apart over time unless you slap it back together with _more_ anger and resentment. Rinse, repeat.

[@jameslazaridis4180]

@@613harbinger316and then they will regret after what have they done after of actions, they will suffer from the consequences of their own behaviour and actions which they have done.

[@missAlice1990]

Shrek was literally based on the concept of subverting that trope. Except it also had an interesting and beautiful story to tell.

[@saphiriathebluedragonknight375]

What's interesting about Tangled is that Rapunzel may have never left the tower if it wasn't for Flynn. Flynn also saved her from Gothel by cutting her hair. She needed Flynn, and he needed her.

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

The queen HAS to tell about sacrificing the daughter... because if the father doesn't know, it doesn't make him evil. That's the whole point of telling him... to make him evil.

[@toniyami]

The father is in a bit of a grey area since his kindom is starving to death and the gold can help his people survive. He could sacrifice his daughter in order to save an entire kingdom. Also the queen telling him is probably to prevent any 'Hey how come my daughter hasn't been seen or heard from ever since she got married?' or 'Wait the prince is searching for another bride? Didn't he get married to my daughter?' questions that would surely come up eventually. The writers might have just thought the king might ask those questions and would have shut up with gold. If that's true then they have a rock bottom opinion of fathers which is why I think this is real reason.

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

@@toniyami Yes... but there's a big difference between making a sacrifice out of ignorance, versus *knowing* that you are doing it. IMO, that's the reason that the writers had him *learn* what was going to happen to Elodie... to put him in the same category as the prince & his parents.

[@toniyami]

@@Nyet-Zdyes that's why I put him in a grey area since by sacrificing 1 girl, he can save an entire kingdom. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few and all that. He probably thought he could take the money, save his people and if possible sneak into the cave and save his daughter too. It's a cruel decision but one that rulers have to make at times.

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

@@toniyami Yes... it's a gray area. Yes, it's necessary. Yes, the needs of the many often (not always) outweigh the needs of the few. In regards to this movie, specifically... Elodie's father had to make a choice that no father should ever have to make. The movie doesn't care about him, which is generally true of our modern society as well... meaning that it's a case of "Art" reflecting reality back at us. Of course, it's also true that this piece of "art" is also supposed to be *Elodie's* story, not his, which is also fair enough. Regardless, he dies trying to rescue her. Then, though... Elodie saves the dragon that killed her own father for trying to rescue her. Elodie makes it blatantly obvious that her motive is petulance... "I'm tired of doing what I'm told." This is the *same* dragon that has, for a very long time, been deleting children for the sins of their parents. Of course, some people try to excuse the dragon because she didn't know that she was deleting innocents... but that is patently absurd... because it was her *original* intent. That was her original deal with the original king... to punish *him* by punishing his daughters... and the dragon *continued* to do it, to the best of her own knowledge. But, I guess that, in the mind of Elodie, and the writers, the dragon gets special privileges.

[@svetlanaandrasova6086]

I mean...nobody saved Leia. She even got them,two men,out of the ship and shot better than them. I guess entire Hollywood history is forgotten since Force awakens came out

[@RoninCatholic]

Hollywood never paid attention to Leia. These types only ever noticed her when she was Jabba's captive and put in the slave outfit (where she strangled her captor to death) and not the scenes before this where she's very convincingly playing a hardened mercenary and threatening to suicide bomb with a grenade to demand a higher wage from Jabba.

[@curtiszyr]

⁠ “what do dragons eat” yea just like that , dragon was probably eating all the wild life in the kingdom or maybe eating humans as well. Now it has babies , which means more dragons, the people wouldn’t have anything to eat by the time the baby dragons start growing to adult size, famine is inevitable I’m 100% SURE . The king had a reason to sanction and lead that operation.

[@lordshell]

I would absolutely adore a great adaptation of Roger Zelazny's "The Chronicles of Amber". And would be absolutely appalled over a bad adaptation. Apparently Stephen Colbert is pushing for an Amber adaptation. I don't know if I should be hopeful or depressed.

[@gregowen2022]

I did not know until just a couple years ago that Colbert is a HUGE fantasy nerd, and is apparently one of the foremost experts on Tolkien lore. Perhaps if he's behind it, it will be accurate?

[@sarasunshinemt4444]

​@gregowen2022 don't get your hopes to high, it's COLBERT, remember...

[@lordshell]

@@AJ-gt6tsyeah.

[@jaydeeao]

I come for the entertaining videos, I stay for the edits. Hahaha. 😂

[@willpower8061]

One thing I noted was how EVERY female had their chest well covered, despite living in what looks like the 1500s, were dresses showed the cleavage.

[@SigPuma]

The extreme sarcasm is greatly appreciated and enjoyed.🤣

[@michaeleverett9091]

My wife and I saw the Alex Meyers video for this and she insisted we watch a few pieces of it, because she was convinced they couldn't be as bad as Alex presented. They weren't - they were worse. The ending for example has Elodie and the dragon murder the entire castle after Elodie gives a half-hearted warning, telling people to escape. They don't, so the film presents the event as their fault: the girlboss warned them, they didn't listen, and so they died for...underestimating her? Zero thought put into this one.

[@thelbs6500]

Appreciated the reference to the Stormlight Archives - Brandon Sanderson is one of my favourite authors.

[@joshuashepard583]

I would REALLY love to see you do videos on writing: story structure, arcs, theme, motifs, etc…

[@frannyfranman]

Really love your channel. Having a reasonable and balanced outlook is truly radical these days 😅

[@jonathanwilliams9359]

The best part of waking up, is Folgers is in your cup! 🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@williamjones3534]

You sir have earned my like 👍 I'll keep this response short. One of the things I like about KZbin is that it seems to be a good antidote to the incestuous nature of Hollywood. It's pretty clear that the guy who wrote this trash knew someone and blew someone to get this made. I think KZbin is a decent enough vehicle for someone skilled enough and talented enough to put people like this guy out of business.

[@josiahswanson1]

This is possibly THE most sarcastic Greg Owen video…. And it’s completely deserved 🤣

[@capncharmz]

I would love to see Way of Kings on the big screen, but am simultaneously very nervous for what LA writes would do to it.

[@shojodraws3399]

There is nothing unique at this subversion anymore, we've been doing for two decades now. Hercules was making fun of this trope in the 90s, can we let it rest?

[@ovyle]

This movie could work as a multiple film type, with each movie following Elodie going to different kingdoms and lands to burn down those who willingly traded their daughters for money. With each movie tackling a different theme and emotion, not just of elodie, but also the main themes of the movies and showing her descent into Madness. Example: The first (Technically the second) movie being about the denial of Elodie, with her just destroying Kingdoms left and right, in persuit of revenge. Infiltrating a kingdom that has send over 15 women to their deaths, but they play dumb to keep receiving money and trust from their citizens.Trying to destroy the Kingdom from the inside, Elodie infiltrates the kingdom but blinded by anger, she accidentally kills multiple innocent people. Getting her memories back from the time in the cave, she develops DID and has to suppress her multiple personalities whilst destroying the kingdom. The other movies would involve anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

[@StormCatStuff]

The irony is that the step mum subverts the "step mum is evil" trope... while using a different and rather racist one. The "black mother has maternal spiritual sense and wisdom which is inexplicable, so she mysteriously knows things just by her mothering and protective instincts" Its not a very negative racism, but if her inexplicable instincts come from being black and a mother, thats still judging based on race and motherhood

[@skeinofadifferentcolor2090]

Shouting out Ryan George is super easy, barely an inconvenience. 😂 Throwing in a Ryan George clip is tight!! 😂

[@manicpixiefangirl4189]

That dragon is legit gonna eat everyone in little Millie’s kingdom. Hilarious.

[@bstark94]

Congrats on the new background... it's so much better. Opinions on point as usual

[@RoseBaggins]

Ooh, oh ooh, your ideas about what could fix this movie sound soo good. I would like a movie about some of them.

[@kevinmccabe7263]

I appreciate that this was a really well thought out take on this movie. Most other videos have just been complaining (justifiably) about how woke it was, but that's not a great analysis on the movie.

[@gregowen2022]

Thank you very much!

[@kaliefaul1905]

10:09 TBF, I have a near-perfect track record of enjoying everything that Chris Pratt's in. CNV (probably) won't be an exception.

[@KevinTumlinson]

A fantasy series I would LOVE to see done right (so hands-off, Hollywood... *glare*) is David Eddings' "The Belgariad" and the follow-up "The Malloreon." An actual chosen-one coming-of-age story with some classic fantasy tropes, turned slightly on their ear. Lovable and endearing characters, well developed cultures and mythologies, and great magic system. There's even empathy for the bad guy. And there's a strong female character who doesn't have to make men weak so she can be strong. I'd hate to see this get the woke treatment. But I've wanted to see it on screen for decades.

[@Polgaraswit44]

Me, too. I kept hoping someone would shove it under Jackson's door. I still go back and reread Pawn of Prophecy. Garion and Polgara are two of my most favourite fantasy characters.

[@KevinTumlinson]

@@Polgaraswit44 Belgarath FTW!

[@DerrickMims]

That Daniel Craig "It's just dumb!" is fast becoming one of my all-time favorite movie lines.

[@TrafficJamByCam]

Referencing another analysis series in your analysis series is tight!

[@BayBerry1337]

Love the new set Mr. Owen! Really fits the vibe of your videos

[@jaywlkrr]

I know this has nothing to do with the video, but I had a dream that sir Greg Owen here was my English teacher, teaching me the definition of sardonic. This is how you know you’ve been watching too many of his videos. But I ain’t stopping

[@Dude-vb4ul]

Your recap of this movie makes it sound so much more interesting than it actually is, And you really worked hard to make it sound uninteresting so thats saying something.

[@lasercraft32]

At this point its more common to see people subverting the "damsel in distress" trope then it is to actually see the "damsel in distress" trope.

[@RoninCatholic]

Outside of videogames, I am hard pressed to think of a single instance of it being done unironically in about 40 years. And within videogames, about 20. Even the movie adaptation of the videogame whose plot centers around a princess captured by a dragon has the princess NOT captured, but the hero's brother who is supposed to be fighting along at his side to rescue her, and the one brief time she gets captured it's because she surrenders and then breaks HERSELF out. I loved that movie for being less bad than most with its female character, but it still shows all the hallmarks of Hollywood girlboss Nintendo is said to have told them to tone down or else.

[@philoxoper]

damzel trying to be the halfass Shrek😂 to the live action Disney remakes