Daniel Schmachtenberger: Bend not Break: Maximum Power & Hyper Agents | The Great Simplification #20

Here is Part 2 in a series of conversations with my friend Daniel Schmachtenberger. It's great to learn in real time with someone looking at the challenge our civilization faces - with a completely different background but similar ethos. It's like playing an insight slot machine in real time. (Part 1 here: • Daniel Schmachtenberge... )
In this episode we take a deeper dive into organizational structures of civilization, including maximum power, energy and 'hyper agents'. We're building towards a concluding framework on what key essentials will be necessary for our culture to 'bend not break' in coming decades. I hope you enjoy it and it kickstarts similar thinking/conversations in your own network(s).
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Daniel Schmachtenberger is a founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue.
truncated Show Notes - (full notes at www.thegreatsimplification.co...
00:15 - Daniel’s website, the Consilience Project, and TGS Episode Part 1
02:00 - Nate’s work on Macro-issues: Reality Blind Vol. 1, Animated videos, Economics for the Future - Beyond the Superorganism
02:15 - Daniel’s work on micro-issues
09:06 - Surplus and financial representations of it
11:01 - Exponential growth obligation
11:25 - Jevons paradox
10:46 - Global GDP and energy coupling
12:39 - 18% of electricity goes towards the cloud and servers
16:01 - What is money
19:37 - 2-3% GDP growth expectation
21:36 - The digital economy still requires materials
22:21 - Average American consumes 57 barrel oil equivalents of fossil fuels/yr + 17 barrels of oil equivalents in stuff bought from oversea countries.
23:29 - GINI Coefficient
23:47 - India coal consumption up 29%
24:56 - Inequalities in climate effects
27:26 - 93% of heat absorbed by oceans
28:55 - Aza Raskin - Earth Species Project
31:10 - Marvin Harris
33:50 - Tech is value affect
36:36 - Agriculture provided a huge surplus of energy - primarily due to the plow
37:24 - The plow pushed for the end of Animism - which was once universal
40:20 - David Graeber
41:15 - Dunbar number
41:55 - The printing press and the protestant revolution
46:52 - Maximum power principle
47:15 - Kleiber’s law
59:13 - Alfred Lotka The Law of Evolution as a Maximal Principle
55:16 - Multipolar trap
1:05:15 - Losing 1-2% of insect biomass/year
1:09:04 - Large percentage of men have Genghis Khan’s Y chromosome
1:12:56 - Ooda Loop
1:16:21 - Systems
1:32:26 - Dopamine and Delayed gratification
1:37:07 - Peter Thiel
1:37:46 - Metcalfe’s law
1:39:22 - Saudi Aramco.
1:39:52 - There is a finite amount of atoms (copper)
1:44:45 - As energy gets more expensive, everything gets more expensive
1:49:24 - 19 terawatt society
#DanielSchmachtenberger #NateHagens #TheGreatSimplification

[@thegreatsimplification]

Here are the full show notes (in the summary youtube has 5000 character max and this was 6400). I'll do this forward -also good to sign up to receive notifications when new (audio or video) content is up at link at bottom of: natehagens.substack.com/p/the-great-simplification-20-daniel?s=w Show Notes 00:45: Daniel’s website and other works civilizationemerging.com/about/ consilienceproject.org/ www.thegreatsimplification.com/episode/05-daniel-schmactenberger 2:30: Nate’s work on Macro-issues read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/i/ www.thegreatsimplification.com/animations Economics for the Future - Beyond the Superorganism 2:45: Daniel’s work on micro-issues civilizationemerging.com/ 09:36: Surplus and financial representations of it read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/165/ 011:31: Exponential growth obligation www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/11/economic-growth/506423/ 11:55: Jevons paradox en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#:~:text=In%20economics%2C%20the%20Jevons%20paradox,rises%20due%20to%20increasing%20demand. 11:16: Global GDP and energy coupling journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0164733 13:09: 18% of electricity goes towards the cloud and servers www.governing.com/next/the-battle-over-technology-and-energy-consumption.html scmresearch.org/2018/09/28/the-supply-chain-of-a-computer/ 16:31: What is money read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/212/ 20:07: 2-3% GDP growth expectation ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption 22:06: The digital economy still requires materials www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-16941-y 22:51: Average american consumes 57 barrel oil equivalents of fossil fuels/yr + 17 barrels of oil equivalents in stuff bought from oversea countries. www.ejolt.org/2012/12/human-energy-use-endosomatic-exosomatic/ 23:59: GINI Coefficient en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient 24:27: India coal consumption up 29% www.deccanherald.com/national/indias-coal-output-up-29-to-6658-mt-in-april-1108069.html 25:26: Inequalities in climate effects www.un.org/esa/desa/papers/2017/wp152_2017.pdf 27:56: 93% of heat absorbed by oceans www.iucn.org/resources/issues-briefs/ocean-warming#:~:text=The%20Fifth%20Assessment%20Report%20published,causing%20ocean%20temperatures%20to%20rise. 29:25: Aza Raskin - Earth Species Project www.earthspecies.org/about 31:40: Marvin Harris www.britannica.com/biography/Marvin-Harris anthropology.ua.edu/theory/cultural-materialism/ 34:20: Tech is value affect slate.com/technology/2015/03/how-technology-is-changing-our-choices-and-values.html 37:06: Agriculture provided a huge surplus of energy - primarily due to the plow www.dandebat.dk/eng-klima7.htm link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10818-013-9156-6 37:54: The plow pushed for the end of Animism - which was once universal www.cmu.ca/faculty/gmatties/lynnwhiterootsofcrisis.pdf 40:50: David Graeber en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Graeber 41:45: Dunbar number royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsbl.2021.0158#:~:text='Dunbar's%20number'%20is%20the%20notion,other%20individuals%20in%20the%20group. 42:25: The printing press and the protestant revolution historyatnormandale.wordpress.com/2016/12/15/the-printing-press-and-the-protestant-reformation/ 47:22: Maximum power principle read.realityblind.world/view/388478403/170/ 47:45: Klieber’s law en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleiber%27s_law read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/198/ kzbin.info/www/bejne/nn2qdX18fKagn8U 59:43: Alfred Lotka The Law of Evolution as a Maximal Principle www.jstor.org/stable/41447607 55:46: Multipolar trap slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ 1:05:45: Losing 1-2% of insect biomass/year www.pnas.org/content/118/2/e2023989118 1:09:34: Large percentage of men have Ghengis Khan’s Y chromosome www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/1-in-200-men-direct-descendants-of-genghis-khan 1:13:26: Ooda Loop en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop 1:16:51: Systems read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/9/ 1:32:56: Dopamine and delayed gratification read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/59/ read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/96/ 1:37:37 Peter Thiel en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Thiel 1:38:16: Metcalfe’s law en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe%27s_law 1:39:52: Saudi aramco. www.statista.com/statistics/1068803/saudi-arabia-total-assets-of-saudi-aramco/#:~:text=The%20total%20value%20of%20assets,according%20to%20its%20credit%20rating. 1:40:22: There is a finite amount of atoms (copper) www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921344913002127 1:45:15: As energy gets more expensive, everything gets more expensive read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/218/ 1:49:54: 19 terawatt society www.theworldcounts.com/stories/current_world_energy_consumption

[@luciano1142]

Thank you

[@davidcardill4607]

There may be something regarding money and finance that you guys overlooked. In 2015 the IMF released a report and in that they stated that the subsidies to oil had reached 10 million dollars (USD) per minute, which is 5.6 trillion annually and that is the total of all the subsidies which come from all of the global governments collectively towards that venture and this is something that many people don't understand about our world. They subsidize things that are not solvent, as in they do not generate a profit on their own, and this is true for oil, animal products and the pharmaceuticals which outside of military expenditures are the 3 largest subsidized sectors on Earth. And, there is a reason these subsidies exist and the practice of super funding things which are not profitable and the simple answer is that they are bankers; that these sectors require subsidies or they wouldn't exist at all; and so what is the effect of all of these subsidies? National debt. Also the collective national debt of all global governments in 2015 was a number in the trillions of dollars. Countries the globe over make payments on their national debt annually and it is like a bad credit card debt where they make continuous payments on the interest of their debt but never pay back any of the principle of their debt and after paying billions towards their national debt their national debt increases every time, and if this sounds like a bankers wet dream it is because it is. Nate if you think for a moment that the international banks pay out any of their own money for anything ever: you're wrong and if you don't fully appreciate that money is created out of thin air: you should. It is created out of thin air all while only a few have the ability to create deposits and this ability is both fiercely guarded and only applies to a select few. And the reason I'm imparting this information here is because of two words; two words which can be called the two words which can explain virtually everything which occurs in the western world: Because Money!!!

[@davidcardill4607]

Also: you need a master physicist within your group, and not one who works in theoretical physics, those studies are mostly bunk, you need one who has hands on and works in the applied physics sector and if you're at a loss to find one of these all master refrigeration mechanics are said because of the knowledge and processes involved. In order for an air source heat pump (standard air conditioner) to deliver 100,000 btu's worth of cooling to an indoor environ it needs to shed just over double that amount of heat (+ 200,000 btu's) into the outside air. So: the hotter it gets the hotter it is going to get, if we continue to use conventional air sourced cooling systems, and this is one of many understandings required to form conclusions on many things discussed in this video above. A thorough understanding of energy is required as well, since it is also of great import, and not the (scientifically illiterate) standard media understanding of energy either, their view is as corrupt (coal, oil, gas) as it can be.

[@davidcardill4607]

Why have an actual physicist in your group? Well, the man with the most amount of patents ever: Nikola Tesla: and another man known for his understanding of physics: Albert Einstein: both said that coal oil and gas have never been needed, while non-physicists (most people) are subject to a belief system which in their own minds is incontrovertible as to why these fossil fuels were and are so necessary. I'm just going to state a fact here, which will if you comprehend it in its' entirety spin your understanding of reality, energy and lies. The Trillium Lighthouse Authority was created by a Kings Grant in the late 1400's and they built over 2500 lighthouses all the way around Africa to the far east and going west towards the Americas long before even whale blubber turned into lamp oil was even invented. For centuries, more than 2000 years, trade via wooden ships dominated the trade routes. And: lighthouse light marked all of the places where stone either breached the surface of the ocean or came close to breaching the surface of the ocean and this light can be seen from a very long distance and these are the places they built these lighthouses. I'm sorry boys, this is in the historical record and is empirical, no matter what anyone else said repeatedly of it.

[@thegreatsimplification]

@@davidcardill4607 Thanks - I cover all these issues and much more in other presentations, I recommend 2021 Earth Day talk as starting point. kzbin.info/aero/PLdc087VsWiC7bh3_n86AtgjW6cKmHNWxW Or this academic paper: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800919310067

[@zardiac521]

Finally my daily search of the internet for a new Daniel Schmachtenberger Podcast has come to fruition 🙏

[@jmoney1941]

You and me both! 😁👋

[@JoshFlorii]

When Daniel speaks, I listen.

[@MrJoker42369]

Same! AND Nate! These gotta be two of my favorite people right now

[@yossarian67]

Hahaha, I literally searched last night and thought to myself, I wonder when part two of this series was going to come out.

[@JoshFlorii]

@@yossarian67 I was afraid it wouldn't. I'm so used to weak people saying they'll do things and not doing it. Thanks god for these guys.

[@sitiernst827]

I humbly comment so youtube algorithm will suggest this profound information to more people :)

[@ambntman4212]

Holy Crap!!! My mind has been blown so many times while watching these 2 minds break down every freaking thing that's been bugging me for the past 20 years!

[@peteraddison4371]

... yes, unchecked energy consumption by an inherently preditory and energy dependant species, upon finite energy resources, inevitably leads to the extinction of itself and other species ...

[@anewagora]

Daniel Schmachtenberger is the reason I found Nate, and it's quickly become evident these two together are my favorite pair of innovative philosophers in our time. This has really helped my mental health as I try to concretize some of the ways I want to change my lifestyle. And hopefully, inspire a small community of friends & family to do the same around me. I strongly believe most of us have opportunities to creatively adapt some of our habits in ways that, while it may not fully escape the modern machine yet, substantially decreases our energy/resource consumption, and moves us in the right direction. Partial solutions that move in the right direction will help open gateways to escape the vortex of the super-organism.

[@JoshFlorii]

Yes, I'm right there with you

[@bronze5420]

Well said! As distressing as a lot the issues they discuss are, it's such a relief to hear the problems of our time framed in a way that makes sense and isn't filled with hand waving that is all too common.

[@delphinebrooks5110]

yes bent but not break...how long do we have ?

[@danielmcardle3476]

Well said. It's comforting to feel that my misgivings about this system were not misplaced!

[@danielmcardle3476]

@@delphinebrooks5110 I'd like to know that too. Could be any day though really with the right combination of factors all hitting at same time.... I'm guessing. Naturally somewhat pessimistic!

[@j.s.c.4355]

I’m at 1:31 right now, and I have to say, for the most part, your podcast. the more I listen to it, confirms the impossibility of changing our society from within. In sure you don’t mean to do this, but with every new podcast, you explain in a new way, why our society moves inexorably toward higher and higher resource use, even when we can see the limits coming. If your intention is to give me agency to change the world, it’s going to wrong way.

[@rochavarrias]

26:20 What Daniel is speaking of here is critical-these cascading, interrelated effects that will compound in the future in unforeseen ways. There is a book that speaks on this phenomenon with quite profound insight called "The Great Waves of Change: Navigating the Difficult Times Ahead" by Marshall Vian Summers, which I would wholeheartedly recommend to anyone looking at this with serious eyes.

[@johnchapman5125]

Thank you, Roch.

[@JonathanFrost]

Now we know why critical thinking will be the super valuable skill for the future.

[@treefrog3349]

Critical thinking is one faculty that our "deciders" (G.W. Bush terminology) severely lacks. My own capacity for it only increases my anxiety. Viscerally realizing what a cadre of self-serving and greedy "dunderheads" actually controls the World does not help me sleep better at night. I am beginning to believe that ignorance IS bliss.

[@JoshFlorii]

"I think we can get into that in the next podcast" YESSS PLEASE get into the details of turning the superorganism

[@boniknik1981]

I love Daniel Schmachtenberger and now I love Nate Hagens too. I just can't help but noticed Nate's excitement when he learns something new and is so open to new knowledge. Really great interview Nate! New Subscriber here now ❤

[@jacksonrichards]

My favorite thinker on my favorite podcast - again! Your work is so strong, Nate, thank you for all of it, and I'm so grateful you've brought Daniel back, such a treat!

[@gaiagasm]

Thank you guys!!!! I needed this today. Was beginning to feel I was out here alone with this awareness!!! CRAZY SYNCHRONICITY - Just prior to watching this video, I was witness to a man beating on ox on the ground as it would no longer stand up to pull the ox cart! Broke my heart Then I thought maybe I go get my truck to help them, and of course realized the insanity sucking energy from the earth to protect the ox so that this man can move the sand he needs to build his concrete house, to keep up with his neighbors in his "Neo-colonial gentrifying" neighborhood! GEEZE

[@wesleylandis8466]

I could listen to this conversation a thousand times and still find profound nuggets I didn't pick up on the time before. You guys are unbelievably lucid and wonderful to listen to!

[@BlackbodyEconomics]

Right down my alley ... this is golden.

[@noahbrown4388]

1:32:10 “There is some faith that the thing that you don’t know exists, that makes you do hard discovery work and stay with it”

[@michaelpolacheck3948]

The discussion on the plow tech culture effect fits with the rise of regenerative agriculture. The plow increased production, but it killed the micro biome that led to the periodic civilization collapse from loss of fertility of the soil. The new science of micro biome interdependence of all organisms has the promise of new cultural basis for interdependent systems thinking. Starting Dunbar level communities based on regenerative ag with low energy/high relationship lifestyles may be a practical start.

[@thegreatsimplification]

@Michael Polacheck - thank you - this is new to me - yesterday I was introduced to the work of Christine Jones who's work highlights the fact that NPK (especially P) shortages aren't REALLY mineral shortages but are because the microbiome of the soil is weakened or non-existent. We still have the financial recalibration due in coming decade but your line of thinking is definitely in the field of good/possible paths forward

[@ccrg109]

@@thegreatsimplification Dr. Elaine Ingham is a microbiologist who studies soil biology. I think if you are going to introduce new ways of doing things going forward, particularly food growing, she would be at the top of my list of individuals I'd like for you to have on your podcast.

[@matto1385]

I came here to clip that part of the conversation. The shift in perspective of regenerative agriculture from the masculine/dominion over nature, to the feminine/we are nature is such a powerful idea that Daniel so eloquently indicated towards. If Nate wants to delve more into whats happening in broadacre regenerative agriculture i would suggest talking with Nicole Masters who wrote For the Love of Soil and is currently consulting on 1 million acres and developing a course for regen ag coaches. Has the on-ground experience and vision and is such an engaging speaker!

[@timcoombe]

Agree with the comment about Dr. Elaine Ingham. If you look at the amount of NPK fertiliser recommended over the past 100 years, it keeps going up as the soil health gets worse. In healthy soil, where there is an abundance of fungi, bacteria and nematodes, crops have access to minerals and micro-nutrients they wouldn't in otherwise depleted soil with added industrial fertiliser.

[@robertpekin2995]

All comments here are spot on, couple this with associative economies work around True Cost Pricing and we’re starting to get somewhere

[@dutchgirl7603]

Another great episode... time for a nature walk and a little meditation to assist in digesting all the information. Then comes the process of planting the seed of this knowledge in conversations with others and sharing within my personal group of curious like-minded friends.

[@overgrowngreens2900]

With all this detail in the discussion of money, energy, and speculative stocks… I thought of a great Paul Harvey quote. “Man - despite his artistic pretensions, his sophistication, and his many accomplishments - owes his existence to a six inch layer of topsoil and the fact that it rains.” Glad the biosphere was brought up. Ecological costs are adding up fast while the bread and circus is failing to distract as well as it used to. Thanks for posting this. A lot to chew on while I garden. Subbed

[@delphinebrooks5110]

I had the same thought 1/ fire 2/ agriculture 3/ fossil fuel 4/ digital world 5/ learning to use our brain and to separate the brain/tool and the brain/consciousness. That brings me to my next thought about the heart/mind/will and specifically about the heart part which seems to me that it should not be presented as a kind of brain that has more "moral/better values" sense but like the part that is more connected to the sense of oneness , the intelligence to perceive the connectedness of all...in brief the ecological mind that understands that the quality of one life depends on the sanity and well being of his/her material, physical and emotional environnement...let's keep it as a way to be more pragmatic...basically we need to have the hyper agents with only strategy and drive, understand that they are lacking intelligence. As they operate on strategy , they should be more open to it this way. Let's make the higly individualistic hyper agents understand they are not operating in their own best interest . If they are hyper agents , they already know that one can only be efficient in reality . It's pretty easy to understand that the "system" pushes/selects people willing to chose drive over heart but now because of people like you 2 , hyper agents can now be influenced by your work and start to think they can have it all or at least missing on something and maybe they will start to diverge their powerful strategic energy towards solutions... difficult but not impossible... Any way , thank you again for your work.

[@Seawithinyou]

Keep up with the Greater Good our world’s Future guys 🕊🌏❤️

[@dankrozonouski]

This is a beautiful conversation. The whole series is incredible. I fell off Daniel after going through a break up and I’m so glad I found my way back to his and his peers lectures. Oddly enough, I feel very safe and secure listening to conversations like this, especially when Daniel is involved. Im not sure why that is, but either way, keep it coming for many more years guys!

[@paulwhetstone0473]

Great dialogue, guys. I’m so looking forward to part three.

[@jeanne553]

Word!!! The world needs to listen to Daniel.

[@user-by8pu5bx1x]

I have never clicked so fast when I saw this

[@Boreascorax]

I'm genuinely happy I found both of you guys. Thanks for all of the great ideas and things to think about.

[@HakWilliams]

Daniel and I will LEAD AS TWO KINGS!

[@ansonstiles]

Just discovered this channel and have been enjoying it! Another great talk here

[@carolesea]

1:51:02 Thank you!!! I have watched the first two and I am eager to watch the rest. I am sharing this ongoing conversation with friends.

[@ThomiX0.0]

Thanks Nate, and Daniel in this post. When you both, speak of 'gain', the 'surplice' or profit, do you not see the silly picture of the little boy standing in front of the toyshop-window, thinking; 'how can I get that..for myself'? Einstein did not use 'the brain' who came up with the question, The logic it uses, could not bring 'something New'.. He did go for a long walk.. As he said himself, when the motives do not disturb my brain, it comes free to 'see' what has never been seen before. Answers in the same way, are not solutions. Teachers will present you an answer, but they never ever solute anything. If for a moment they, the student and the teacher, became one and the same, in search for the solution, the 'gain' or 'profit' coming out of that, would not be misused towards those who do not have.., but compassionately shared. Attention makes bonds, not break them. This Attention asks for a free mind, and in fact causes it when not given, for Einstein in order to perceive, or a student in order to become the next generation. Both are equally important, there is no separation here. Thanks for the moment, lets move on.?

[@simonheyn3419]

I deeply appreciate and am super stoked about each podcast. Thank you. I may suggest Joe Brewer as a guest? You two in dialogue, gosh that would be good!

[@c3bhm]

Joe Brewer and Derek Jensen are 2 of the best TRUE-environmentalists on the planet. They are both brutally honest. Deep-green, rather then greenwashers. But also Charles Eisenstein, because he had the integrity and courage to deeply explore the climate-skeptic position and he admitted that he came away no longer believing that the science is even remotely 'settled'. We need more people who go wherever honesty takes them, regardless of political agenda (especially when it's deeply polarized/partisan).

[@Withlindaandrews]

I appreciate these 2 conversations so much. One missing piece that I feel is missing, is threading in the role of trauma perpetuated in our society and at an individual level and how it is largely unprocessed and how this impacts the collective. I am loving gabor mates work. Personally this is my perspective of how to make the shifts, is to bring in the depths of conscious integrity. What one sees they can’t unsee and then actions are different. One can not “see” if they haven’t been processing the trauma and stress on some level. Curious if your thoughts. Also the trauma makes for ripe picking of victim mode for the exponential tech to prey on whether consciously or unconsciously. Love how you guys pulled in the values piece. I see this a lot in religious communities where the social media goes unchecked. As one sees the dysfunction being perpetuated and how they are a part of it, they can start to make the changes. That’s been my journey at least! Major trauma, major healing, major shifts in consciousness major new actions. I would love to support pulling these macro conversations together with the facts and numbers, like our consumption doubling holy moly. Holism has my heart! Bruce Lipton and Gregg Braden are pulling together the data on animism and evolution. Not sure if you’ve explored there work. They tie in the trauma with making new choices. Creating heaven on earth. Cheers to today and now actions and putting together all the pieces! Much love! Linda Andrews - Lila Life

[@Samsgarden]

Yep. Unprocessed trauma becomes your currency - Not in high quality assets. One lives their life circumventing fear and despair, constructing and weaving their lives around it, therefore you are never healed of it. Your choices and interactions become prescribed and your associates have a type of trauma- fittingness.

[@olander0808]

Seeing this upload turned a shitty day into a good one!

[@S.G.Wallner]

@43:00 "uhhhh... First of all, that was beautiful." Yes! I was thinking the same thing after DS unfolded the downfall and debris from the world changing ancient tech of the plow.

[@kenda9190]

Hi Nate! Thank you very much for the Great Simplification podcast, I'm a great fan! Could you invite Susan Krumdieck for one podcast session? I really enjoyed her book "Transition Engineering" and think that more of your subscribers could benefit from learning about her change framework and efforts

[@sarahammer5492]

Thank you so much for this excellent podcast. If motivation, behaviour and values sit at the heart (yes I am oversimplifying) perhaps one arc of this work is to look at marginal communities or community members who have elected, in the face of supercapitalism, to lead simpler, less energy hungry lives. I am thinking here of Permaculture as well as regenerative agriculture. The work of Phoenix AZ permaculturalist, Brad Lancaster has already influenced the policies of his local government. I think it would be great to hear a discussion with him, or someone like him, and yourself.

[@sarahammer5492]

Or even the Australian author of Retrosuburbia. He is also the co originator of the Permaculture concept and looks at how we can downshift (in energy and resource terms) our way of living in the suburbs.

[@louisacochrane5491]

mind blowing analysis!! will continue to do the hard rather than expecting the harder! thank you for sharing

[@galacticsoul1615]

Finally! Fillet Mignon for the mind👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

[@McPhelsuma]

that plows my mind

[@Forbyio]

This was amazing as usual. Thanks again for encapsulating such widely interrelated and key concepts. Paraphrasing: "Humanity has unwisely outsourced our societal planning to a financial system that has a legal shareholder obligation to exponential growth." "We have to design a social system that does not kick the can of externalization into our psyches." You two have, over some time, decreased my nihilism, and increased my motivation to explore answers to the metacrisis. I'm building something... a liquid democracy platform which could have large effects. The goal is to support the agency of collaborative bodies that collectively have more heart centered motivations, and to support societal long term planning. I've taken the Center for Humane Technology course to look for possible externalizations, and I think I'm doing a good job of it, but I would be thrilled to see if either of you have perspectives on possible 2nd, 3rd, et order effects. I'd love to get you both on the board to help doing risk assessment and feature decisions. Thanks, Sam

[@aresmars2003]

37:00 "The plow (and beasts of burden) lead to end of animism" ... I recall Joseph Campbell offered something similar in Power of Myth, or at least hunting societies recognize humans can be predators and prey, like the rest of animal world, and so we experience something of ourselves in our hunted prey, AND so there's a relatedness there of "equals".

[@aralila9304]

As a young person who experiences constant despair living off of systems where earth's finite resources are not given true value, these conversations bring me clarity. One note, while I understand this is a conversation between two intellectuals who are trained to communicate at a high-level (and that is crucial), I think it would greatly serve the larger population if some of these ideas were broadcasted in layman's terms. Is this done in some of your writings? Academic language can create an in-group between intellectuals and, given the timeline we are facing, I think it would be fantastic to communicate this to as many people as possible. Thank you for your excellent work! I look forward to every episode.

[@danielmcardle3476]

I had to listen a few times but it was worth the effort to understand these ideas. Thank you for making this

[@tensevo]

It is time we treated civilization like a human body. We are currently on meds, with an oil addiction with cancer and on suicide watch, but we could turn it around and become a self sustaining, enlightened guru.

[@LukeGeoDude]

I see Daniel is getting his mega-beard look back on.

[@isagenesi1326]

What an amazing conversation thank you!

[@beardedgladiator8576]

I can't help but feeling that fostering a growth mindset societally based around the heart, mind and will attributes Daniel discussed would help bring in the cultural shift needed to start moving everyone in the right direction. Would also require a new set of insentives that are based around people's wellbeing and the world at large.

[@beardedgladiator8576]

To expand on this I have been having the gnawing feeling that some sort of version of this built into a subscription model (To avoid ties to attention) social media app could be the catalyst to help foster this change at every level (individual, local communities, state, etc) I do wonder if this resonates with you as a potential solution to some of the problems that we are facing?

[@lightdampsweetenough2065]

I would say incentives to actually care/help must be local. Today we got fake people faking empathy towards people they've never met and never will meet. Maybe a donation or two so they can make up for the fact that they don't give a shit about people that they can see with their own eyes.

[@mbican]

Giving everyone the US amount of energy would increase wellbeing. Being against coal means you deny poor people of airconditioning

[@CreationTribe]

Space, Time, and Matter are also currencies of life that are just as crucial to us as energy is. I mean, of course you need gasoline to drive your car; but you also need the car itself (matter), the road on which to drive it (space), and the time it takes to actually drive down the road. In my models I use all four - I typically refer to them as STEM in my work ... not to be confused with the educational initiative :P

[@williamjmccartan8879]

Thank you Daniel and Nate, perhaps in number 3 we could get down to brass tacks, as of now we seem to be sticking with the macro scale, it would be good to look at these areas within both the macro and micro, letting all of see where the markers are in time, so we might be able to take some sort of action. Have a great day gentlemen, peace.

[@treefrog3349]

The level of intellectual discourse that occurs in these conversations is so far beyond the capacity or interest of the "average" American that i cannot help but wonder about its ultimate efficacy. As brilliant as both of you guys are, is anybody of any cultural or political influence actually listening to you and heeding your warnings and admonitions? I wish that individuals of your intelligence and insight were operating our government and economy. Sadly, terrifyingly, we are subjected to the diametric opposite. So does ANYBODY with any power or influence consult with you guys, or are you both merely wailing to the gods of reason and objective reality?

[@charlesnardi5750]

Agreed! I can only assume both Daniel and Nate are in direct communication with some number of individuals in influential positions, I think they mentioned knowing ‘hyper-agents,’ of which there aren’t that many, according to Daniel. I do wonder about the efficacy of increasing agency for caring, informed individuals vs informing hyper-agents about the interconnectedness of things, fundamental problems with the generator functions of our current existential threats, etc. I imagine there is a lot more happening behind the scenes than publicly, but maybe that’s just wishful thinking.

[@lightdampsweetenough2065]

This is important for us slightly above and everyone who wants to understand and, for me, it's about getting out of the frame.

[@krun11]

Daniel has some influence (he's connected reasonably well now with some more influential persons in the tech space and a friend of his, Jaime Wheal, mentioned that he (daniel) had been meeting with Governors at the beginning of the pandemic) - but all in all I think both have vastly less influence than they should.

[@dontmind_MyName]

You dont need a majority of a population to change it, so the "average" American/ Westerner doesnt have to indulge in Podcasts like these, for this to have an effect. I think the more relevant question is: Even if they could consult with some leaders of our world, would that make a significant difference in the world ? How much influence would you need to change a growth-hooked-economy in something more sustainable ? I think before trying to change the world, we need a very precise Vision of what the Alternative should look like. What replaces our economy, our information-ecology, etc. Without that, Change might as well just result in Chaos. Realistically, the first thing though that needs changing imo, would be our information ecology. Making sense of our world is essential for all the other stuff we want. And Daniel already works closely with Tristan Harris. So we'll see.

[@jimmybolton8473]

Nate has a good heart, Daniel is a warrior spirit

[@frankwhite1816]

So good, seriously, the two of you need a weekly show titled simply "Fixing It". :-) I'd tune in, I'd buy the mug, brother! Gimme that 'Fixing It' merch! Actually, along those lines, I wanted to pitch something to Daniel real quick - check this out, okay, how about a franchise of like 50's style burger joints that take all the good stuff from the 50's, the black and white checkered linoleum floors, the stainless steel counters, the red vinyl stools, but leave out all the bad crap, the music, the racism and misogyny, etc., where we serve farm to table vegan bugers, fries and malts, all plant based, but all super delicious, and we call it . . . . wait for it . . . . . SCHMACHY BURGERS!! Right? Who doesn't want to eat a delicious, and nutritious, plant based Schmachy burger while enjoying a tasty torture-free malted? We take the decade back, brother! 🙂Get it right this time!

[@GinoTheSinner]

Schmachting it up 🤙🤙🤙 heck yeah

[@eddycurrant1380]

I don't see the world as clearly as I want, too much baggage no doubt, but I thinks perhaps I recognise those that do, and I certainly get that vibe from you 2. Hard to keep up, love the tangents, the links, the sheer intensity of the thougtht trains. Thanks and for my part I will keep working at it.

[@delphinebrooks5110]

An other thought about the heart/mind /will and this one is about the will/drive. We all know that the first obstacle to overcome in front of the emergency of the ecological problem and the potential social unrest and chaos ahead (or authoritarian/military organized mass destruction and/or controlled ) , is our capacity of denial. The second one is that we are wired to master frustration over fulfillemnt for obvious evolutionary advantage ( if the predator doesn't master frustration after missing a prey, it can t survive). Basically what keeps our will/drive strong is basic hunger and sex needs. So we need to understand that if one is not hungry , one will tend to go towards accepting what he/she understands/experiences and frustrates him/her if there is no easy fixing. So all the question is how to keep the will/drive of the none "hyper agent" knowing that most of us who past the denial part, will tend to go towards resignation or/and cynicism ?

[@itsureishotout-itshotterin3985]

Great show guys.

[@emceegreen8864]

To resolve the problem (growth of consumption) that outruns the natural systems a restorative economy is required to dynamically balance consumption. There’s a practical proposal to address the situation called Carbon Quantitative Easing. It’s also the central theme of Ministry for the Future. Don’t know why there’s not more discussion of it.

[@bipolargamechanger]

@48:00 boooom mind blown

[@Dilmahkana]

This could be a good place to ask this: What use does/did oil have the complex system before we extract it? What role did it play? (And therefore, what are we disturbing in the extractive process)

[@AnniesEggs]

Standard economics textbook's treatment of bank loans is a diversion from the main thrust of what it teaches, which is that, essentially, money doesn't exist. Therefore the delta between financial claims and the real economy doesn't arise.

[@bronwynemillar]

Wonderful conversations, thank you so much.

[@anthonylawton5363]

Brilliant!!!

[@truepatriot6388]

The concept of "entropy" is often included in emerging sensemaking narratives along with its complement, "syntropy", and I have been giving thought to this duality and how it relates to the predicaments of the Anthropocene. --- The supreme good is like water, which nourishes all things without trying to. It is content with the low places that people disdain. Thus it is like the Tao. --- I have been struggling to better envision how to transition away from our entropic civilization toward a spontaneous self- expanding syntropic community. If this goal interests you, please take time to consider the perspectives and questions below. Any feedback is much appreciated. As you know, entropy (and negentropy/syntropy) reflect how matter and energy change with time. As captured in the 2nd law of Thermodynamics: overall, things will progressively decay and become more chaotic, disordered and incoherent as time passes, and with less capacity for "useful" transformation. On the other hand, the universe and our planet have been evolving toward increasing order, syntropy and meaningful information. These rhythmic patterned exchanges of matter and energy have been embodied in the three kingdoms of life (matter/energy > plant growth > animal growth > fungi > repeat) and have created expanding capacity for information processing, including consciousness, social behavior, learning and human culture. Information theory and recent theories of mind are based on these same patterns of entropy vs syntropy. The Anthropocene dawned when human groups began to harness ever greater capacity for entropic power in which energy is narrowly focused in order to fragment materials, tissues and even chemical bonds - often for the purpose of killing and dismembering. Entropic power involves a fast, precise, and intentionally "optimized" flow of destructive energy based on positive feedback (e.g. exponential and unstable), often with unforeseen, "externalized" and longer lasting harms (winners and losers). Examples include fire, the sharp edges of flint tools, arrowheads, spears, the plow, bullets, and then explosives, combustion engines, nuclear fission, and all manner of modern tech. In the information sphere, entropic energy flow/power involves hidden information and deception for the purpose of manipulating or defeating others. At the spiritual level, entropic power enslaves us to desire and fear, hubris and hate, and separates into "us and them" - "lock and load, it's kill or be killed, and might makes right." These typically masculine technologies and attitudes have facilitated an ever greater concentration coercive entropic power and control, forming patriarchal, hierarchical, warring civilizations. This progressive growth and concentration of entropic power has been the foundation of imperialism and industrial capitalism, and is culminating in our planet's 6th mass extinction of life. On the other hand, the syntropic power of living things involves synthesizing matter, energy and information into holistic growth patterns of reciprocity and exchange. These rhythmic patterns of energy flow involve self-regulation by negative feedback, and are spontaneous, decentralized, slow, initially inefficient, and generally non-coercive (free choice), but provide win-win benefits and unexpected long-term efficiencies. They are typically feminine. From atomic and chemical evolution within stars, to cellular life, geo-ecology and the brain, syntropic patterns are woven throughout out planet's evolving beauty as understood by indigenous worldviews, Eastern wisdom traditions (e.g. the Taoism) and modern complexity/systems science. These syntropic world views, including the synoptic gospels of Jesus (especially red-letter translations or Jeffersonian Bible), offer low-cost and practical psychosocial strategies to help us (especially men) to turn away from the seductively addictive path of seeking and gathering destructive power and control. Buckminster Fuller, who conceived the term "Syntropy" as a response to principles of design and architecture of his day, would surely embrace the growing appreciation of its ecological and moral aspects as well. I wonder whether you folks would agree that the syntropic flow of information, energy and matter through our physical and metaphysical worlds should be viewed as a unifying thread - its unnamable way? Perhaps recognizing the elusive patterns and principles of its pervasive presence can help us transcend the baffling paradoxes and calamitous predicaments of the Anthropocene, and help us advance toward a culture based on spiritual and planetary regeneration? --- In dwelling, live close to the ground. In thinking, keep to the simple. In conflict, be fair and generous. In governing, don’t try to control. In work, do what you enjoy. In family life, be completely present. When you are content to be simply yourself and don’t compare or compete, everybody will respect you. --- Thank you for your dedication to sensemaking & meaningful truth. I look forward to any comments on this.

[@casamurphy]

With so many comments it is difficult to know whether I am repeating the comments of others, so I apologize if I do. As a bitcoiner it was refreshing to hear this discussion of what is money. Bitcoiners believe that Bitcoin addresses the concerns expressed in this dialogue. It is perfectly suited to serve the deflationary aspect of population decline and technology, while also serving as sound collateral for healthy debt. The energy footprint of bitcoin is a small fraction of the footprint of our correct system. The fact that it requires energy to maintain the security and scarcity of its network is what makes it truly decentralized and thus a dependably fair and sound money for all market participants.

[@christinemdao]

Grateful to learn from this conversation between deep thinkers!

[@dcaabd]

wow. these guys are surprisingly insightful. nice to stumble across this.

[@noahbrown4388]

Wow.. some heady, dense stuff!! I’m going to have to listen a couple times. Shukran awī!!

[@pabloravizzoli345]

1:25:50...how do we get the hyper agent class to start drinking ayahuasca?

[@EnemyOfEldar]

Amazing convo. Loved it. Google reveals the study that found the Genghis Khan Y-chromosome is found in 8% of men living in the former Mongolian empire region which translated to 0.5% of men globally of 1 in 200. Not as bad as stated. But still pretty bad.

[@DonClark]

I would love to hear them explore the concept of AI and try to define sentience/conscious related to AI and other mammals on a spectrum.

[@tinfoilhatscholar]

As I go back and review slightly older talks of yours, such as this one, I only find more things that you're missing, rather than things that I had missed. I sure hope you guys open your minds up to some other ways of thinking as there are many people listening to you two.

[@awetravelsOG]

So what are they missing?

[@tinfoilhatscholar]

@@awetravelsOG ecology. And when I use the word, I mean it in the strict sense its definition. The study/knowledge of natural ecosystems.

[@adamu1978]

The 'Tragedy of the Commons' is a simplistic and outdated way of thinking about human interaction around resources. Elinor Ostrom won the Nobel prize in Economics regarding this very point in 2009. It is full of assumptions of people not talking to each, not problem-solving on the individual level, and an over-reliance on institutions to mediate interpersonal relations. It's unfortunate that Daniel cites this 'Tragedy' as a genuine problem on multiple occasions in this episode, and doubles down with Game Theory and 'Trap' talk that is so common in realpolitik academic circles. Human life and interpersonal relations are so much more nuanced and complex than the simple Game Theory and 'realist' models predict. In fact, securitizing a culture in an attempt to prevent these models from playing out is a heinous squandering of resources and energy in our modern era. Daniel should read Graeber more carefully regarding his take on money/debt, primitive experimentation in social systems (ala his last book), and the actual possibilities that exist in human agency. The superorganism talk is interesting, but it isn't deterministic like the both of you are painting it to be; systems complexity necessitates emergence of new forms, and is antithetical to a system falling into a single rut, which takes it down a path of destruction. This perspective will not only help us to understand system dynamics, but will also help us to cope with the changes we face.

[@jacksonrichards]

The concepts of equilibrium and attractor states are nearly absent from Graeber's methodology (and ideology, for that matter). For all the strength of his work it is not the place to look for good complexity or systems theory. And it is indeed telling that he and Wengrow wholly ignore game theoretic implications in their book - they present a reductive image of society in a theoretical, self-deterministic vacuum with no influence from external forces.

[@david81663]

Thanks for a great podcast. I wondered if you and Daniel could incorporate a discussion of nuclear energy as well as the emerging phenomenon of deep geothermal via millimeter wave drilling into the discussion of the limits of renewable energy sources. It would be great to get your perspectives on How these change the landscape of our energy debt and current inability to pay it back!

[@j85grim4]

I would like to start a count of how many times Nate says the word "energy" in every episode.

[@barnabyvonrudal1]

I would like a dollar for every time he says energy 😁

[@TheisBrandon]

Borgs (blockchains on renewable generator systems) energy rights protocol: socket binds energy storage unit to computable unit.

[@Heart-Core]

♥High regards♥That's what deeply developed human intelligence and consciousness looks like!♥Thank you for sharing your beauty with us♥

[@olivieraleman]

Schmachtenberger drops more "fucks" than my ironworker crew...love it...

[@HakWilliams]

Nate Dogg!!! Crushing it 24/7!!!

[@kenpentel3396]

Thanks

[@AdamMiceli]

So many awesome insights here thank you for the brain food 🧠

[@packardsonic]

The solution is so simple people pass it over: we need to foster altruism. Unless people care, no progress can be made, as soon as people care, progress is made quickly. Good people think everyone is good, selfish people don't see the problem. Right now no one CAN care about anything because all their focus is needed to stay competitive enough to not lose our job. The path to solving this is 1. Advocating altruism 2. Organising it with Free Collaboration Networks that meet people's needs 3. Teach others to prosocialise. If we do this everyday, our communities greatly improve quickly, and society then does too. We got this! Let's go!

[@johnstollmeyer9498]

Financial growth is one aspect of empires that need to grow to support a nonproductive elite. Robert Gilman at In Context gives a good analysis. Bioregionalism is a sound framing of the future planetary culture. If every urban neighbourhood and rural village prioritised ecosystems regeneration, minding soil life and catching and storing rain water and fertility we would evolve a diversity of cultures appropriate to place.

[@FeunFooPermaculture]

Wow dude Schmachtenberger went full anarcho-primitivist on this one! Respect!!

[@olivieraleman]

"We've done our risk assesment , which is total bullshit" You guys need a comedy act... great vids guys

[@TheCoyotemonster]

Looking forward to № 3. An easily bummed person.

[@thegreatsimplification]

Watch last 20 min of this to (maybe) be less bummed. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qKGxXntsbdegmJY

[@TheCoyotemonster]

@@thegreatsimplification Is sharpening the sword like polishing the mirror?

[@cemotazca8628]

Offtopic: You guys should check the first artificial Brain build by Anirban Bandyopadhyay et. al. "Nanobrain a artificial Brain made by a timecrystal" Could further inform you on AI and stuff

[@boombot934]

Thank❤🌹🙏 you, Daniel Schmachtenberger and Nate👍! Wonderful information! Those ruining the earth will be ruined! Revelation 11:18! 🥀🌏🌍🌎🌹

[@aliciaperez1519]

We all have needs in all nature

[@pigstonwidget]

I'm only 30 mins in so it's vaguely possible this will be mentioned. the 80 billion land animals and 3 trillion sea animals killed and consumed each year, via a massive industrial process. this conversation needs to be had ....

[@thegreatsimplification]

it wasn't had per se. Please watch 33:45 -40:00 on this years Earth Day talk (or all of it). kzbin.info/www/bejne/qKGxXntsbdegmJY. and last years Earth Day talk from 1:21:00 -1:32:00 (or all of it ) kzbin.info/www/bejne/p4rIi6qLi91og7s.

[@c3bhm]

Daniel is a vegan, by the way, in case you didn't know. He has some old vegan-advocacy videos online, if you've never seen them. Brilliant stuff.

[@xiscanicolas6009]

Actually the reverse. Our problems and increase in population came from eating too much grains. How can you solve a problem by doing more of what created it?

[@xiscanicolas6009]

We cannot be herbivores without having a predator... Our species is obviously Omni but carnivore based, which means our population should be controlled by the availability of meat. Of course with animals that are not kept industrially and not fed from industrial grain agriculture...

[@161157gor]

As One climbs Higher, the Path narrows and becomes slippery & sinuous, but the Rewards comes with the View, the Air, the Spirit…

[@aliciaperez1519]

I was looking at it

[@mills8102]

Is there a way that a benevolent multipolar trap could be constructed?

[@stephanygates6491]

More important and impactful than recycling would be to mandate simple separation of biological waste from electrical from durable materials. Ultimately, we will be mining our dumps/landfills for recyclables of all kinds. How easy we make that will determine that economy.

[@jjuniper274]

You know how factory farm ag machines have moisture sensors and GPS to detect low yield soil? Is that a tech we can use for home or community gardens?

[@lightdampsweetenough2065]

Question that anyone can have a go at. I guess this is not a original thought and maybe it comes up after 1.27h in. A king in Europe generally had hyper agency. The values was baked into the crown and so was the potential for hyper agency and the power of the kings own will could be greatly amplified. The system in turn depend on the regulators and amplifiers of the crown. I'm ofc thinking of the Church and it's dominance over issues around values. The other part is the nobility and the man power connected to them. This system gave most kings very limited power unless you had thumbs up from one outsider (church) and many agents from within (nobility) What we have today is a class of quasi religious women/noblewomen baked into one. ? I say quasi religious because they are the chosen few with the power to blow us all up, and probably by mistake ?

[@graemetunbridge1738]

26:00 '... geocide of negligence...' I think we are more guilty than 'negligent'.

[@colint3375]

Do you guys end up going over nuclear energy and how it factors into problems and potential solutions?

[@LarsRichterMedia]

plow vs animism blew my mind but in hindsight it really seems completely obvious.

[@aliciaperez1519]

Yep

[@JonathanDavisKookaburra]

Loving your podcast. Just a quick suggestion to refine the title to make it clear that it’s part two. Current title has too many characters. :)

[@aliciaperez1519]

We should ve giving lesson and learning