Lord of the Rings is Getting the Star Wars Treatment

Warner Brothers seem to want to do a Star Wars to Lord Of The Rings.
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[@DanielGreeneReviews]

I don’t normally go full negative but when I do I wanna explain myself so you can judge for yourself for better or worse. Checkout the Sufficiently Advanced Magic's Deluxe kickstarter: www.kickstarter.com/projects/wxp/sufficiently-advanced-magic

[@LPChipi]

Man, your description of LOTR being the work of one mind, one set of ideas and the quality of writing that would take to even attempt to work on it gave me goosebumps.

[@Luka2023-]

@@LPChipi it is the strongest argument I have seen from anyone for new films not to be made, since it took Tolkien 12 years to write the trilogy and by that point already had the hobbit under his belt. It’s a gargantuan task to do well, and I only have faith that it could be if Peter, Fran and Phillipa are involved in writing/producing these films

[@medic7chaplin]

one could have said the same things about wheel of time, though to be honest rings of power is already doing tolkien dirty. The lack of respect for established IPs in recent movies and shows leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

[@bohort]

first time huh 😋 I dont really agree that others 'should be given a chance' it's not a little league game companies exist to make money, and a risk is risky. plus you are more likely to find an Indie director to make a decent adaptation of something these days than a studio giving it the old 3 acts and a mandatory Blade style boss fight (the blood tornado studio execs insisted on, and my 9 year old self thought was a weird choice)

[@judedornisch4946]

While I agree this is best left alone and I would not trust corporate to do the job. There is actually a lot to mine that could be both compelling and stunning if the endpoint constraint is kept in mind. The youthful Aragorn Denethor rivalry as part of the basic character development pre-LOTR could really work even in today's aesthetic.

[@aaronharvey5625]

Somehow, Sauron has returned

[@DanielGreeneReviews]

Made my blow air out my nose. Well done!

[@bearzerger]

Dark Magics, secrets only Melkor knew.

[@pedanticperson1149]

And if they're really going to give it the Star Wars treatment the big reveal with be in a game like Fortnite...

[@memel0rdxxx696]

Make sure the same actor said it too. Was it merry or pippin?

[@Nightley4]

​@Pedantic Person It still blows my mind how they chose to reintroduce him, even though it was never planned. It's like you missed a movie between 8 and 9.

[@greyowlaudio]

My favourite part of The Lord of the Rings Cinematic Universe (TLoTRCU™) was when Aragorn whispered "Fellowship, assemble" and then the eagles airdropped the hobbits behind him for the epic final battle. Everyone in the theatre stood up and clapped violently; some people even started beating others to death out of excitement.

[@mikes246]

I think it's reasonable that this will be pronounced phonetically as "te-lotter-cue" and honestly I was against it at first, but now I'm hyped because I'll get to be saying a silly word a lot with a straight face

[@Kommiekiller]

I got goosebumps when Sam said “and I… am a gardner” and then proceeded to John Wick Sauron out of existence. Truly beautiful writing.

[@kyle-ld2gh]

I love how this is still a thing. Oh Amazon, and big studios. Stop letting m0r0ns write your scripts. At least Henry Caville will have direct say on the Warhammer show. He was the only one holding The Witcher together.

[@SKIllITY20]

Yes I started getting beaten in theatre and enjoyed every minute. The hype caused by the scene gave me so much joy I didn’t care just got up a clapped

[@spage0]

Hahaha!!! Funniest, yet scariest comment I’ve read in a long time

[@danielduff]

What's crazy is that Peter Jackson had to fight to get LOTR made in the first place. Multiple studios rejected him. Now they seem determined to make LOTR stuff regardless if anyone wants to watch or even make it

[@gregbors8364]

Studios rejected his pitch because he insisted on telling the story in two films instead of one, saying that the story couldn’t possibly be told correctly in a single two- to three-hour film. And then he finally took it to New Line, whose head was a LotR fan, who not only greenlit two films, but three, being that the story was originally written as a trilogy of books. And then, of course, all three films were wildly successful, generating a lot of profit for the studio, so of course that got the attention of Amazon / Bezos and various other corporate interests who now think they can get a piece of the pie. “JRR Tolkien” is now considered to be a marketable property, it doesn’t matter if the material is canon or not, just slap that name on it and you have a brand.

[@MortyrSC2]

@@gregbors8364 Tolkien wrote LotR as a single book, but publisher insisted on splitting it into three books, because it was supposedly too long.

[@atharvadeshpande6907]

​@@MortyrSC2 publisher made the smartest move possible ngl. While LoTR is a single story sprawling a huge world and vast literature, it takes a toll on you just to read 3 separate books. It's an imposing series, and 1 single long book would not have garnered as much attention or fame as a trilogy which was practically the godfather of modern fantasy did. P. S. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but wasn't it also something to do with the shortage of paper post ww2?

[@ryancruz1876]

@@gregbors8364 The Lord of the Rings is a single novel of six books. It’s not in any sense a trilogy.

[@ryancruz1876]

@@atharvadeshpande6907 The publisher split the novel into three volumes because they thought it would fail and paper cost a lot after the war ended.

[@OverlySarcasticProductions]

*balrog rises from shadow and flame* "They fly now?!" -R

[@justwonder1404]

One of the things I love so much about LOTR is its goodbyes. Arwen bids farewell to her father and she won't see him or any of her people until the end of times. Frodo says goodbye to his friends and homeland. Gandalf leaves the Middle-earth forever after fulfilling his task. And the end of the story is so decisive it hurts. There's so much beauty and pain in those scenes as they remind us about the finality of everything, that we should cherish all we love while we can. I came to see being able to say goodbye forever as a sign of maturity. That also includes letting go of stories. But alas, the modern audience™ seems clinically unable to let go of what it knows so movie makers keep feeding us the same franchises again and again instead of exploring something new. Sigh.

[@brucetucker4847]

Arwen won't see her father again even at the end of times, or at least, that's what the Elves believe. That's what grieves them so much, more than any other parting or death, and why Elf-mortal marriages are so rare. They have completely different fates after death, not just immediately, but eternally. Men leave the world after death, while Elves are bound to it eternally, and as Finrod says in the _Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_ , the Eldar generally believe that when the world ends, their existence will end with it, while the existence of Men will not. It takes an extraordinary reason to justify such a parting, and even then it requires a special dispensation from Eru, because if the spouses themselves are not to be separated then the fate of one or the other after death must be altered, and only Eru Himself can do that.

[@justwonder1404]

@@brucetucker4847 oh, thanks, I either didn't know or didn't remember that. Yeah, that definitely provides that last bit of heartbreak that was missing.

[@danilarance]

After watching Critical Role’s animated adaptation of The Legend of Vox Machina, I becoming more and more convinced that what we need in fantasy is not live action adaptions, but animated adaptations. It’s (theoretically) lower budget and therefore lower risk for studios and in many cases I think it would actually be able to capture to essence and feel of a fantasy world far better than live action can.

[@erikrungemadsen2081]

So silly, so wonderful, so checky. That show is such a work of love.

[@Nunya_Bidness_53]

Yes an animated LOTR series would be ideal

[@TF80s]

I really believe the Star Wars movie series could be saved if they were remade as animated movies...especially the Prequels & Sequels.

[@gman7497]

@T I've been saying this for a while and stuff like Arcane and Vox Machina just confirms it. Animation gives you such an immense amount of freedom and if people just got over their hangups about it being 'kiddie' it should be the preferred method for most scifi and fantasy.. no uncanny valley issue or suspension of disbelief, anything would possible and it would work seamlessly.

[@heibk-2019]

Dont forget the Cyberpunk anime and Arcane

[@rickallen8734]

Joe Abercrombie absolutely needs a mid to high budget adaptation. You could easily do The Blade Itself for eight episodes at a $100 million and it could become insanely popular. Also, he already wrote spinoffs that add to the world with fun stories that then setup a sequel trilogy with a new, younger cast of characters. His books are a television producer's dream.

[@davidsabotta6528]

The entire First Law trilogy frustrated me to no end. None of those excellent characters were allowed ANY autonomy. It all felt like a railroaded DnD campaign run by an obnoxious DM obsessed with the quest giving NPC.

[@davidsabotta6528]

@Sam It's exactly my complaint how little freedom each of the POV characters had. 1500 pages of "Well I have no other choice" was so upsetting to read. It was a waste of good characters, imo. Also, they absolutely each had a choice but every time they went along with the plot rather than act on their own desires. The forces that manipulated the characters often were as blunt as "do this or I'll kill you." Repeat for 1500 pages.

[@wolfpytlak2786]

@@davidsabotta6528 yeah, i get you, but that was the point, by the end it's clear that no one had any real choice at anytime, because even if they did, their character flaws were just too strong to do what was needed without a supporting context.

[@briankeys5941]

YEA RIGHT LOL, ultra-violent, apathy, darkness, depression, grey of the soul and the uncaring universe (not good/bad, derp), etc. The complexities of the OG trilogy in this PG world and more importantly, a very good deconstruction of the fantasy hero trope to an extreme degree, would never get off the ground. I really enjoyed these books, but we live in Idiocrasy. Filled with ADHD zoomers that MUST tweet like 20x while watching anything, and casuals that just wouldn't get it, and 100 other "types" that are just taking up space. Basically these books are WAY to smart for the majority of the US, and these aren't exactly Shakespearean masterpieces either, lol. Also, thats even assuming they would be done faithfully... Again I SAY, YEA RIGHT. No hate, I would love to see it done right, but there is no hope these dark times.... ughhh in media, lol.

[@LupineShadowOmega]

@@briankeys5941 Yeah, the world isn't PG. Projects are PG, because PG has the largest audience and we live in a Corpo "maximum profit" world. Niche audiences? Not enough billions made...

[@ExtremeNeoclassical]

“Sometimes we get Andor and sometimes we get Rogue One” Ouch, I really liked both of these lol.

[@AdamKirbyMusic]

Yeah I would say Rogue One is my favorite of all the newer SW movies.

[@user-jt1js5mr3f]

Sometimes we get rogue one, and sometimes we get boba Fett.

[@RogaineForEwoks]

How about, "Sometimes we get Andor, sometimes we get Solo." ? If anybody liked/loved Solo they're out of my will, I'm serious! You don't get any money when I die if you admit to liking Solo.

[@lupolinar]

Solo wasn't a bad movie at all. It has a lightning problem, everything looks muddy and we did not need it, BUT it still a better movie then the mainline movies. Not that this a huge feat...

[@sgtNACHO]

@@RogaineForEwoks It wasn't great. But compared to Obi-Wan? Boba Fett? Rise of Skywalker? Last Jedi? It was kinda boring, too dark visually, and muddled story wise. But it was okay a 5/10. Damn that droid was annoying though.

[@LarsBlitzer]

I get the creeping feeling that we're only weeks away from another LOTR series announcement. Thanks for articulating your concerns. I'm surprised they haven't dropped Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas into MultiVersus yet.

[@kaikalter]

I feel like getting new movies of a beloved series is like a coinflip. It's just that the coin has been weighted to the side of "could have been better".

[@hexcodeff6624]

You can't really weigh a coin without deforming it.

[@TheGeekyHippie]

I'd just love to see a version of LotR that has ZERO whitewashing. Pretty much the only Hobbits that should have been white were Frodo, Bilbo, Merry and Pippin. The vast majority of the rest of the Hobbits in the Shire should have been played by people with brown skin. Don't believe me? Go back and reread "Concerning Hobbits" and see what Tolkien said about the three "breeds" of Hobbit (Harfoots, Fallowhides and Stoors).

[@Don9872]

​@@TheGeekyHippie 🤣

[@TheGeekyHippie]

@@Don9872 obviously you're one who never paid attention reading the prologue.

[@Don9872]

@Glenn тнєgєєкунιρριє, Jedi Sentinel Harfoots are 'browner' of skin than the Stoors and Fallowhides. If you interpret that as something other than an English person with a strong tan then more power to you I guess 🤣

[@know-nothingmillennial3043]

I'm reading Malazan now (just finished House of Chains) and am absolutely loving it already to the point where I can't wait to reread it. That being said as much as I'd love to see a GOOD adaptation of these books there is no way in Dragnipur that Hollywood in it's current state could do this series justice.

[@Jagonath]

The only problem with doing Malazan, is that the books don't have a coherent, overarching narrative (for the most part) and it was written to be deliberately confusing. I had to read the first book twice before I understood that I wasn't supposed to understand it on first reading.

[@petitblanc7343]

Yeah, any prologue in the series is absolute gobbledigook before you've read 50% of the book. I think the biggest struggle it has is introducing a new character or group, but once you know them you can't wait to see or hear of them again, or have different characters or groups meet. It generates its own internal fanservice.

[@Jagonath]

@@petitblanc7343 Yeah Karsa Orlong I think is the best there. The first half of the book, you just think he's a talented if brutal raider. A big, bad raider, but normal for his people. It's only a few hundred pages in, when he interacts with humans for the first time, that you realise he's about *9 foot tall* and can decapitate a ring of captors, with a single, insanely fast swing of his sword, because they didn't understand his range. Meanwhile Karsa calmy announces they didn't know his range after decapitating all of them....

[@zoebrugg7594]

This is why Tolkien stoped, he knew when to stop and let things be. “A story with no ending, is a sad one” - Princess Tutu show.

[@MrDe4dGuy34]

I can’t wait to find out why Aragorn called himself Strider or how Gandalf got his hat. These spin-offs have so much potential already. Seriously Hollywood, what stories from Middle-earth could you possibly tell that would warrant another film series?

[@WasatchWind]

The lord of the Rings and quest for more money.

[@erikrungemadsen2081]

The lord of the Rings flamethrower, kids love it!

[@hugofernandes2930]

There are actually a lot of stories even with just the rights of the return of the king appendixes , some are more interesting than others, since rise of angmar , kinstrife of Gondor , war in the north , reclaim of Moria , eorl and hammerhand stories ( this one is going to have a animated film by Wb) there are even the few rights from the 2nd age that rings of power are “using “ right now. But yeah we will have young Aragorn and Gandalf adventures

[@stephenbarrett8861]

Narn I hin Hurin

[@davidashton3671]

I mean you joke, but a Aragorn or Gandalf prequel would be fucking amazing.

[@silvereken1]

I shouted "F**k yeah!" to everything you said. Totally agree with it all. I sooo wish other fantasy books get adaptations, they deserve it, and Hollywood is too afraid to know it.

[@WasatchWind]

All I can say is - help us Mistborn, you're our only hope. We all know that Brandon Sanderson is working on adaptations, and it's probably Mistborn, which he has mentioned he's done a lot of work in making into a film in the past. If such a thing happened, I know that Brandon would at least get the script right. This in my eyes, is the foundational problem with so many movies today. If the elements lined up, it could be a breathtaking new fantasy film, with an actually good story, showing that such a thing is possible - and then the whole Cosmere would be available to adapt. I feel that yes, if this is successful, it will inevitably lead to really bad Cosmere fatigue eventually, but I think it could break up the funk Hollywood is currently in, and give us a bunch of really great films and shows.

[@mapes9087]

I'm going to be honest, I don't even have much hope for that. I'm glad that Brandon is working on it, but I simply do not have faith that an adaptation will work.

[@ZlothZloth]

"No. There is another..." Honestly, I would rather they DON'T go off books. Make a story specifically for a movie!

[@WasatchWind]

@@ZlothZloth I'm sure that Brandon may someday help on scripts for films and games - but Brandon himselg has expressed that he is not a screenwriter by trade. While he seeks to have improved his skill in writing the Mistborn screenplay, it seems he is not interested on pursuing it too strongly at the current time. And Brandon has said he's always wanted to see Mistborn as a movie - indeed, it was written to be an homage to heist films. So I'm personally excited for it, I'm just wracking my brain wondering when stuff will finally happen with it.

[@WasatchWind]

@@mapes9087 We'll just have to see. He wrote a screenplay for it, being fully transparent about his changes. He took out the scene of Kelsier teaching Vin allomancy, changing it to happening during an action scene. He changed several characters in the crew, I believe Breeze, to being women, because he realized that he probably should've had more women in the first book. Brandon is a very successful author who is very protective of his lore. It seems like he's taken a great deal of time learning to understand the Hollywood system. I have no doubt that Brandon will be heavily involved in any such project. All this being said, I think the film has a higher chance of being good than a typical Hollywood fantasy film these days.

[@onepresence9460]

I would love if the whole Cosmere was adapted faithful. It would be a dream come true if it was all animated with all kinds of different art styles. I would like to play Cosmere video games as well.

[@TradePaperBackEnjoyer]

"Sometimes you get an Andor and sometimes you get a Rogue One" Both of these are considered phenomenal by the majority of star wars fans so I'm not sure which one Daniel meant to be the "subpar" franchise entry in this example.

[@play_history]

Rogue One is extremely contentious. It's more liked than not in my experience, but I LOATHED it. Check out the podcast "Going Rogue" which is something of a systematic teardown of how the movie was made, which ultimately comes to the conclusion that it was bad.

[@neutral_narr]

Nah Rogue one is very mixed even with hardcore fans but yeah there are people who like it

[@Luka2023-]

I don’t think we have enough information about what Warner bros’ real plans are for the IP yet, a lot of these articles are based upon “sources say” or “one insider” and that doesn’t make for very trustworthy reporting. HOWEVER, I totally get your concern about something like middle earth getting “the Star Wars treatment”

[@DanielGreeneReviews]

It’s specifically that phrasing that I HATE. More LOTR stuff? Neat. I’m open minded. Treating it like Star Wars with random character spin-offs? Hell NO.

[@Luka2023-]

@@DanielGreeneReviews agree 100% with you, to compare the two IP’s and think that tolkiens work (arguably the most influential piece of fiction in the past 100 years) can be given the Star Wars treatment is a complete lack of judgement. This IP and new films needs to be handled extremely carefully and I just hope that Peter Jackson & his team are involved at the forefront of them

[@АлиМагомедов-я8э]

It could just be WB throwing idea out into the internet to gage the response

[@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio]

Yeah, if they could somehow get the rights to the first or second age stuff, I'd fully be on board with a proper Beren and Luthien adaptation, or anything from the Silmarillion for that matter. I'm sure most fans would be. Any of that would be super-epic. But narratively thin, character spinoff movies written by today's idiots who don't have Tolkien's world fully digested, hell no.

[@mycaleb8]

​@@Luka2023- I don't think Lord of the Rings needs more movies.

[@troikas3353]

Think its worth pointing out that it isn’t just a desire to print all the money that drives reliance on known IP- It’s also the desire to not lose loads of money. Many of these properties would need to be tent pole films and in modern Hollywood those carry price tags in the hundreds of millions. Few entities are willing to take that gamble without some kind of reason to expect it won’t sink them.

[@WasatchWind]

I think that's a really good point. A lot of Hollywood is hemorrhaging money right now. They use to have the support of DVD sales to buttress theatrical releases, but now all that is gone. They can no longer risk making smaller original films, the kind of thing that helps train new writers and directors, but how have to put all their stuff into something that will inevitably make money, even if people hate it.

[@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio]

I could not possibly agree with you more, Daniel! I think most fans are seriously suffering from franchise fatigue. We need more film/TV company execs who will take a risk on an author's work like they originally did with LotR. There are so many great fantasy and science fiction book series out there, both classic and current that they could be adapting. But they won't because they want something "proven" in the film/TV sphere. I originally wrote my own science fiction series in order to put a new "franchise" out there, but it's almost impossible to make it as an indie author, let alone get your work adapted into anything. It's kind of bizarre how our world is set up these days.

[@nifrain9494]

Why is that bizzarre? For somebody to publish your stuff you need to convince them, how else would it work? And the film studios want to make money, and name like Lotr or star wars do that, simple as that. In the end I don't blame them, but the ones selling out the rights without making sure what will happen with them and all of us, who will watch it anyway.

[@WasatchWind]

The problem is the loss of DVD sales. It used to be really lucrative, and it could completely change things around from an underperforming theatrical release. Now you just have streaming, which makes way less money for those experimental films. It sucks, but there's no clear solution in my eyes.

[@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio]

@@nifrain9494 The final sentence was more a comment on the entire situation rather than my own personal efforts. But if you've spent any time at all in the industry you'll know that it only grants success to the already successful. And being successful without any aid from the industry requires a great deal of luck. It's not something that can be manufactured by the author in the way you suggest. Where is the mechanism for convincing the industry to pick up your work? You have the option of querying the hell of it, and if that doesn't work, what else? Independent publishing and investing loads of cash into promoting it. Money you don't have unless you're already successful. But none of this is the point. The point is that the film/TV industry IS NOT rewarding established books with adaptations. It's continuing to recycle the same half-dozen franchises that have already been adapted when there are hundreds of books out there that are wildly popular with fans that have never gotten a chance. LotR was one such book series prior to New Line cinema taking a risk on it. It became a huge success, but paradoxically it didn't mean that producers took more risks with other books. It meant that they took that one risk-turned-success and milked it for all its worth for the next 20+ years.

[@nifrain9494]

@@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio yes, I did not want to say it is realistic, luck is the biggest factor for success everywhere. To the second Point, there have been other stories like Eragon or wheel of time which flopped. There is also dune or the last of us, which are really good. Why would the film industry reward unknown stories if they can safely make money with the big names? I mean we all watch it?! Even lotr was probably the safest series they could do in the fantasy world. I guess the question is why a big private owned studio would support a small author? They look at numbers. Only thing fans can do is proof them wrong by not watching it

[@jjhh320]

@@nifrain9494 A lack of innovation is prevalent in the film and tv industry when it comes to adaptations and big franchises. Execs are clueless as to its cause, when its cause is that old stories and settings are being recycled in very mediocre ways. That cluelessness is BIZARRE. People would rather hang onto their money and produce poor to middle quality work, than actually expand into newer, original stories. Fine, cool. But none of them have any right to act like they don't know why audiences won't give them a chance anymore. It's obvious to the rest of us. Any cluelessness to that is bizarre.

[@timothygwyn1365]

I'm glad you mentioned Robin Hobbs. I think a farseer TV show would be absolutely fantastic

[@encyclopediaofelizabeth]

At this point I just want people that do adaptations to give a shit about the material. There are so many great books and series that they could be looking at and they are trying to just use an IP that is familiar because they think people will love it regardless. I think people would be more receptive to seeing other series brought to film that we haven't seen yet.

[@halfrocanadianv5086]

Its really not asking a lot.

[@Aldric524]

Hollywood (execs) feels more conservative than scrooge with his money. "It must be a sure thing known IP!"

[@cartervanmeter]

Correction: they know people won't love it regardless, but people will watch it regardless. Us fans go out in mass to watch Star Wars, Marvel, Tolkien, etc. even if we think it'll probably be disappointing. We can't help but watch the trainwreck because we get emotionally invested. Also, the tiny voice of hope in the back of the mind that says "What if it IS what I've been wishing for?"

[@encyclopediaofelizabeth]

@Carter V I've gotten to the point where I have stopped watching most things.

[@cartervanmeter]

@@encyclopediaofelizabeth Honestly, I feel that. At least I don't put the effort into watching all the nerd content I used to. I realize this contradicts my last comment. lol

[@Indhel9957]

If they want a fantasy series that could easily be franchised and "star wars" or "marvel" treated, the one that could spit out the most movies, shows, etc. Is definitely the Malazan series. There's even series beyond the book if the fallen that could be later adaptations. And Erikson is apparently making more book for this world. I would be incredibly upset if the adaptation was bad. But if they need an IP to milk, Malazan has the most content to comfortably milk and build upon. And (not sure if execs think this is a plus, but I do) THE AUTHOR IS ALIVE. They could help. Like... idk. I just wish they'd put LOTR down already. Unless you get second or first age rights they cannot make more from this IP.

[@hornbeam7131]

What those executives forget is that those first movies like Star Wars, Terminator, Predator, Alien, were not huge IPs when they came out, even Lord of the Rings went through several rights holders before it got made and it was by no means a guaranteed money maker. Every IP starts somewhere, just because it works in one format does not mean it will translate to another, but someone needs to take plunge or we will be still be watching remakes and prequals of the same handful of stories in the year 2050.

[@BladeWinters]

We went from Daily Show to Last Week Tonight

[@DanielGreeneReviews]

I’ll take that. Lol

[@kirtmanwaring3629]

I’m a die hard middle-earth fan … like I’ve read the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, some of the History of Middle Earth and I actually see the potential for a lot to be done better than Amazon did. The thing you didn’t really mention is just how much background material exists in the appendices, let alone other material. There's Aragorn as Thorongil being the best captain in Gondor’s army, to the point that Denethor feared him even while he was working under a freaking pseudonym that just means "eagle." There's the whole war between Angmar and the northern kingdoms … hell they wouldn't even have to alter the lore for the Elves to show up in that epic battle. There's all this room for speculation with the Blue Wizards in the East and South … maybe they end up being crucial to the west’s victory in the end, maybe one goes bad while the other chooses to remain faithful, and there's so much room for honest speculation and world building there and it's possible someone like Peter Jackson would do that more in the spirit of Tolkien than Amazon did. Hell you have the Gondorian kinstrife, evil cat witch queen Beruthiel usurping the throne … all just based on Tolkien’s timelines and little notes. I’m not naive, it probably will mostly be garbage, but I’m also a Star Wars fan and don’t really have any problem just ignoring stories that are too atrocious for my head cannon. I could do the same here and the occasional masterpiece could justify that attitude.

[@cheesepie72]

that last sentence makes the whole rest of the comment make sense

[@bencarlson4300]

It’s kind of impossible to be a Star Wars fan without the ability to subconsciously choose your own head canon.

[@annmoore321]

I had the exact same reaction as you. I’m SO done with filmmakers sucking the soul out of my favorite stories for a cash grab.

[@BehultonRatPack]

They did the same thing to the wheel of time. The whole premise of the first book was a twist on the trope of the wizard coming into a farming town and telling the chosen one that they are in fact chosen with the interesting bit being that the farm boy is generally uninterested in what the wizard wants but will go along anyways to protect his village and family. The adaptation focusing on moraine has just been sad. They gutted the characters.

[@kirktanka8199]

Great points Daniel. Agree with the points and feelings with why this does not and should not be done with The Lord of the Rings content. Give new IP’s the opportunity. Would love to see all the ones you named and more.

[@coenraadsnyman5229]

may I suggest (clears throat): an epic tale following Bill the Pony on his travels. then, as a light, smooth second movie: Tom Bombadil going through his day. The fans were disappointed by their absence. There are also some trees and hedges that have there own tales. like, Over the Hedge was well loved. we can have a movie about just a hedge.

[@chandleraskew6496]

Some may not agree but I really think the Legend of Drizzt book series would make an incredible tv show!

[@shaylla_]

This! This spoke to me. THANK YOU for putting into words what I have been thinking but could not seem to properly articulate. Thank you. And amen.

[@PeterBParker593]

I think a big part of the reason studios turn to "safe" IP's so much now is because of the dominance of streaming and their reliance on box office sales to turn a profit. Since the studios can't depend on DVD sales if the movie tanks in theaters, they're way less willing to drop huge budgets on risky/new adaptations, no matter how good the story is. But the good news is, Pierce Brown (author of Red Rising) has said he's working on a show adaptation. There aren't any details available yet, and it could still be a flop, but if all goes well it could be new and refreshing!

[@neutral_narr]

Good point Matt Damon also mentioned on Hot Ones how the decline of DVD sales has made returns on films much harder and led to the death of midbudget films.

[@Ellis_Hugh]

Definitely wish we would have seen this kind of passion when Amazon was kicking off Rings of Power - or even more significantly, when we found out all of the ways they were going to aggressively ruin every moment of The Wheel of Time? We just got a 1st season where literally 90% of what we saw on screen didn't even happen in the books. Surely that proven certainty is worthy of at least as much ire as we're seeing over what might or might not happen with the new LOTR projects?

[@styrofoamsoldier]

Thank you Daniel for putting into words what so many of us have thought. This really is the age of making art into mere entertainment, a soulless time of great works re-imagined with cynical hindsight. In the end though, the most important thing is that we still have our books, those won't be taken away from us.

[@beng7206]

As a normal optimist, who usually takes the "but you still have the original materials" kind of approach, I absolutely agree with you on this one. And your list of recommendations that will sadly never be touched was 🔥

[@Cavouku]

To add to the list: not even The Legend of Drizzt has been adapted into a movie or TV series of any kind, despite the name and IP being known decently well outside of the fantasy/D&D community. Some comic book adaptations and cameos, some video game appearances, and Magic did a set with a lot of the characters, but not much in the way of sit-and-watch media. I was a bit baffled that none of the D&D movies, including the upcoming one, seem to have any real relation to Drizzt and his crew.

[@EliteEdgeK]

I would love to see a longer video of books that should get the movie treatment but wont because they wont hit a billion. Im taking notes on the ones you mentioned here so I can check those out.

[@philippschmidt80]

I don't see a problem with this, Tolkien himself saw middle earth as a sandbox to play in, he had no problem coming up with new stories all the time and he rewrote himself, LOTR contains a massive "Well, akshully ..." retcon of The Hobbit for example. He also had no problems with adaptations making big changes, he himself suggested cutting Helm's Deep entirely for a movie adaptation while he was alive.

[@levisimpson516]

Is that a GREEN KNIGHT poster behind you in that skit? What a fantastic film.

[@helhal]

I always imagined that Gandalf is knitting something while away from the dwarves and Bilbo. Maybe the spin off is "how to crafts - with Gandalf" ?

[@thomaswhite3149]

Congratulations! You have finally been chosen by the great Bald One.

[@invisobill-hn2vj]

Within the first two minutes you did a thing that no other medium can offer. You mentioned you were a LOTR fan while simultaneously lifting your shirt up exposing a tattoo to validate your claim. You than dared to keep going and posit a question while showing LA noire, which is a game instilled on inquisition. You’re great at using your medium to explore discourse in this realm of literature, and we love you for it!

[@piefrosty319]

Money on the table, a red rising adaptation would completely take over. It’s too well written and relatable enough to anybody and everybody on a global reach not to

[@ryanbianchini7355]

Hits the home run with that closing! Love it!

[@justaguy3310]

I liked Rogue One :(

[@adri2663]

Amen man…amen 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 We have been so junked up with reboots and sequels (that are clearly soulless money making attempts) that actual good story telling is just being left on the shelves. They must not have any employees that read at these movie studios anymore.

[@benwavin]

The spit and "how dare you?" Had me cackle at work 🤣🤣🤣

[@digitalcareline]

"Shelob a Frodo Story" Followed by the Trilogy " The Shire Awakens" "The Rise of Bombadil" "The last Maia" "Giant Arachnids on a boat" " I know what you Ring-wraiths did last Summer"

[@wowandrss]

"No, I haven't read the books, I am an executive!" and the spitting, dude. Comedic gold.

[@jdzabalad]

Tbh, Aragorn is the only character I could see getting it's own movie due to the amount of events mentioned in the appendixes. But I would agree with Daniel on why this wouldn't work and that idea doesn't excite me even though Aragorn is my favorite character in LOTR Edit: I would be all in for a Hobbit remake with a lot more Martin Freeman (you gotta cast him again, he's perfect as Bilbo) and removing all the unnecessary plotlines and characters

[@haukikannel]

Having events is not a movie. they have to invent the whole story. Aragorn early love interest to get some sex and relationship things… Aragorn staring as a selfis annoying prat… that maybe develop to become the hero he is in the LOTR… aghhh… It can only melt our minds with shame….

[@neileddy6159]

Fully agree with you on this one. Unfortunately Hollywood only does indie flix or big brand stuff any more. Further because the proven stuff was already done well, they have to find ways to make it different and exciting. This typically comes with a bunch of over the top ideological shoe-horning or something that simply doesn't match the works that we love. LotR, Star Wars, Marvel, Willow, WoT, Pirates of the Caribbean are all franchises that shouldn't have become what they did. WoT never got another shot, however it wasn't really the story that was originally written and stripped all of the things that made it great and added a bunch of ideological fluff all with terrible framerate and lighting. To be clear the Top Gun sequel was good, the John Wick franchise has been good albeit weaker than the original, Jurassic Park has had some good moments and has still been enjoyable if not to the level of the original. Generally though Hollywood no longer takes risks and is to in love with their own voice (I know a thing or two about that, you probably noticed if you read the above novella of a rant).

[@DanteL2012]

The problem with these shows too like I kept denying to a college of mine, he thought the Rings of power was cannon and I kept going no no no it's not. So people will think these character movies are cannon...But what is good is that it could inspire people to come to the cannon writing.

[@yourizissos9721]

Well, it's normal to care so much about an IP that you're worried about it getting this kind of treatment from big executives/film writers that have no love for the source material. On the other hand, I feel like these soulless shows just fade away as quickly as they have come if we ignore them (Halo Show, even Rings of Power has started to fade already) If we want these studios to take more risks or stop beating IP's to death, we have to collectively ignore what they bring out (the upcoming movies, Rings of Power) With how much these shows cost to make & acquire the rights to, they will stop immediately after loosing too much money and look for more fresh IPs since that is what the market is asking for. This is simple supply & demand, they wouldn't give these stories the Star Wars treatment if the people weren't asking for it

[@emilybarner3440]

WOAH "sometimes you get an Andor, other times you get Rogue One" is a wild thing to hear from someone who's third fave SW film is Rogue One!!

[@BIGFRANKOL75]

11:58 tell that to Akira Toriyama, the creator of Dragon Ball, and why he came back out of retirement, after 20 years, after what Hollywood did to his characters in "Dragon Ball" the live-action movie. “i had put Dragon Ball behind me, but seeing how much that live-action film ticked me off, and how I revised that script for the anime movie and complained about the quality of the TV anime, I suppose somewhere along the line it’s become a series I like too much to ever leave alone.” He came back and Made Dragon Ball Super to make up for it.

[@crazy137788]

guy ritchie making the gentleman bastards into a movie would be perfect.

[@jimmyoshea2158]

“Bless you Kala!” Lol that was personal

[@DracoOoOoOo]

The two towers was the first book I have ever read for fun after watching fellowship many times in the theater. I have read many books since then and it is very special to me. The Hobbits second two movies broke my heart, rings of power I will not watch as all the warning signs were there and I was proven right after it came out... Idk what this next bunch will bring but I have my doubts but will wait and see.

[@beabea3770]

Malazan is literally perfect and can EASILY be at least a 10-season show or 10-movie saga (not to mention outside of Book Of The Fallen), but nah, let's milk the series that has a clear beginning, middle, and end.

[@docopoper]

This reminds me of how Sauron used the Tengwar script to create Black Speech.

[@joshuakuruvilla]

15:55 love this lineup

[@MasteringJohn]

Does Aragorn really have a character arc in the books? It's been my impression that he pretty much starts the story ready to be king, and his role in the story is primarily tied to the broader themes of the book (serving as the Christ-like figure coming into his throne, redeeming a withered Gondor). In contrast to the films, where they make him a reluctant exile who doesn't fully commit to becoming king until he's given Anduril by Elrond. I could honestly see a prequel Aragorn series showing how he becomes what he is in the books. I don't think we *need* that sort of entry (frankly, I would prefer a miniseries adaptation of the books themselves), but I can see how that could work (assuming the writers aren't stupid about what flaws they give him and have a clear notion of where he's supposed to end up).

[@masoninho8]

The movies developed him much better imo, but the story has been done. It worked. Let's move on

[@xxchaosxx3076]

Aragon does develope in the books. His original plan was to accompany the fellowship until they reach gondor and stay there. However after the events at the end of the fellowship he decides to not go to gondor and instead goes to save merry and pippin. So he has the opposite development from the movies. He goes from wanting to become king no matter what to abandoning bis plans in order to save his friends.

[@MasteringJohn]

@@xxchaosxx3076 What indication was there that Aragorn would have abandoned Merry and Pippin prior to the Breaking of the Fellowship? Moreover, what specifically happened that changed in Aragorn, such that this would have been the case otherwise? This didn't read so much as a change in character, as a change in plans in the face of circumstances. In Tolkien's moral economy, Aragorn would not have been a noble king in the first place, had he been willing to abandon his comrades to death and torment.

[@JasonOfArgo]

Aragorn accepts becoming king is his destiny in the books, but he still very visibly has trouble actually taking up the mantle. He blames himself for Gandalf's death and is worried that he can't lead the Fellowship in his stead, and admits to Frodo he's pretty sure their quest will end up killing all of them. Only later does he actually start leading from the front like during Helm's Deep and showing kingship instead of just believing it's his fate.

[@MasteringJohn]

@@JasonOfArgo Is that struggling with his mantle, or just frank assessment with the situation before him? Again, when I think of character arcs, I generally think of the character getting over a wound or flaw, or has some trait that they have yet to mature. It's not just being confronted with strenuous situations, but undergoing an internal transformation in the face of it. If him learning to forgive himself for his failure to prevent Gandalf's death was directly linked to him rising to the occasion later on, then I could see the argument. And that might very well what was intended in the books (I'm still on Fellowship, and haven't read Two Towers in a hot minute), but I honestly don't recall that being the case.

[@andrade9172]

They should make a Love Death and Robots style animated anthology series out of the silmarillion and unfinished tales, that would get me hyped

[@marshall2615]

"Sometimes you get an Andor, and other times you get Rogue One." **gasp** This is Daniel's spiciest take.

[@fifguy]

I appreciate your thought-out and organized opinion here. Great content. Onto less important things... what did you do to the camera? It's like we are looking at you through the bottom of a drinking glass.

[@wingsofporcelain13]

This is why I'm so intense and strict about what i consider lotr canon. Anything beyond the hobbit, lotr, and the Silmarillion is questionably canon to me. There's so much dense lore in those alone that we dont need to go around changing things to have a good time.

[@ChichiNaka]

There were countless adaptations of the hobbit/lotr for decades before the peter jackson stuff, it's weird to think such a huge franchise would just stop dead because it had some good movies 20 years ago (shoutout 50th anniversary edition Hobbit with obese bilbo)

[@masoninho8]

They kept being adapted because they kept failing. They finally did it right, and it should be left alone.

[@ChichiNaka]

​@@masoninho8 ???? Did you read reviews from the 50s 70s and 80s? I'm not some JRRT expert, but we had to read and listen to adaptations through english class, including the reviews, these didn't fail, they're replayed yearly because entire generations saw that as their core LOTR experience and didn't make it to the 3 hour movies. This is just 90s kids nostalgia run amok, the three movies will always be there for you, huge directors cuts and all the same way the original Psycho, the original Office, Scarface, A Star Is Born and Freaky Friday are still there for people who choose to prefer the originals, you can never expect kids and newer generations to go back to movies from 20+ years ago the same way most kids who grew up with the peter jackson trilogy wouldn't go back to the 80s versions

[@masoninho8]

@@ChichiNaka what the hell are you talking about?? Movie reviews from the 50s?! There have only ever been 3 official movie adaptations of LotR. Bakshi's in 1978, which was an enjoyable mess, and only covered the first half of the book. The 2nd was by Rankin Bass, and was an absolute disaster. The 3rd is the Peter Jackson movies. Such a bizarre thing for you to lie and get animated about. It isn't '90s kids nostalgia'. The movies don't need to be rehashed because they're a near perfect adaptation, that are beloved by millions. If a movie is bad, but the source material is good, sure, make a new one. Why fix what isn't broken?

[@ChichiNaka]

@@masoninho8 I didn't say movies? I said adaptations. Again, you can't expect children and new generations to go watch grungey fantasy movies from 2000 the smae way you can't expect anyone but film students to go back and watch Casablanca, Citizen Kane or La Dolce Vita. Hell, even the Godfather is a stretch for most people under 30, but a remake trilogy with some nu-era Italian-American actors to FINALLY take over the reigns from Scorsese, Deniro, Pesci and Pacino after 40 years? gangbusters. Some of the greatest movies of all times are adaptations of movies that weren't broken and didn't need fixing, thats the whole point of telling you your trilogy is there forever, rereleased every 5 years for eternity

[@masoninho8]

@@ChichiNaka the entire video is on movie adaptations... Also, yes people should absolutely go back and watch old movies, wtf?! You don't need to be a film student to watch, enjoy and appreciate old movies. Great art can be enjoyed no matter how much time passes.

[@himanshugirigoswami4573]

I loved when Aragon said "It's lordin time."

[@ThePsychoCrazyClown]

Sam *sees a Ringwraith riding a fell beast*: “They fly now?” Frodo: “They fly now”

[@Batmanekx]

This problem is real! Daniel described symptoms pretty well! Root-cause is, well.., capitalism, hard to put it any other way. Big studios will do as few dangerous and creative steps as possible. I think WIsecrack has a pretty good video on why that is the case and why even smaller studios like A24 are gradually struggling more and more to put out projects which aren't big, safe and pulpy blockbusters.

[@misanthropistbookworm]

You are absolutely right. I'm so ssd about this... Nothing's sacred anymore, goddammit!! They are determined to ruin everything... Why can't they leave at least Lord of The Rings alone?! T_T

[@halanhart]

You say it best. No matter what, all of the fluff will be a part of the conversation. I remember a time when I liked star wars and had fun talking about it. Now its just grief when I think about it. You say it best. The characters and world were intended to tell the story they told.

[@johnwallace2319]

in my father's lifetime, there were the days before starwars, and then one day everything changed. I breakdown my life in the much the same way, there was the years before Fellowship, and then there were the years after, it changed everything. The fact that it is a movie that most would regretfully say they will only be able to see for the first time once, tells us all we need to know, it is truly special.

[@Della-HH]

This is honestly heartbreaking for me. Thanks for covering this, I had NO idea this was happening. As someone who not only loves LOTR/Tolkien for the plot, characters, themes, etc. but also for the fact that there are so few adaptations of the original content, I am stressed about seeing LOTR grow into some kind of Star Wars/Marvel situation with the oversaturation of content. Also, this may be an unpopular opinion, but I think fandom gatekeeping should be totally fine if it means preserving the original content and ideas for what they are and were meant to be. I don't mean that you can only call yourself a fan if you've done xyz things, but rather it seems so wrong to change the original content and add to it in detrimental ways just for the sake of bringing in new audiences. Anyway, thanks for the great video and update!

[@darj5569]

in my opinion, if they plan on having a "star-wars-esque" type of franchise, making sequels would probably be a bad (or even the worst) idea. like what they did with the star wars sequels, they might bring back the big-baddie from the og trilogy (palpatine) for the sequels. however, the problem here is that it defeats the purpose and efforts of all the characters in the conclusion of the og trilogy. if they ever bring back sauron, it would undermine what the fellowship had to sacrifice for the obliteration of all evil from middle-earth.

[@ninanadine1185]

ok but merry and pippin crop parties sound pretty dope

[@Bizarro69]

I've been waiting for this!

[@CruelDwarf]

BTW, to the point that you cannot tell Aragorn stories set before the Hobbit. You are very correct here. You literally cannot do a lot there because Aragorn is like 15 when Hobbit happens.

[@myowngenesis]

The fact that you included Malazan as an example of filmable books, dude, I love you

[@bekagogeliani-zg4fw]

You said it Daniel, think that's how we all feel. We should start our own studio 😆

[@lukedoyle2770]

Your passion for reading is seriously inspiring. I’m gonna order all those books mentioned at the end right now.

[@thebigsida6645]

THANK YOU Daniel. couldn't agree more

[@ChristopherCopeland]

I really hope the fanbase communities of various IP begin to demonstrate their dissatisfaction by cancelling subscriptions and not buying movie tickets. Verbal complaints will change nothing. If anything, it gives them more free marketing. Speak with your money or know that they’ll just make more as long as people continue to engage with their shitty products.

[@senorbe]

I agree with you completely, Daniel, and I had read Lord of the Rings many times before you were born,

[@alexmartin51]

Can’t believed you dissed Rogue One like this!

[@pazuzu126]

"Milked until the nipple bleeds," I'm pretty sure that's the current slogan for the Walt Disney Corporation

[@bryanwigmore7224]

Back in the before times, Rolemaster developed some really good Third Age stuff for their Middle Earth Role Playing game set during the wars against the Witch King of Angmar. I can see that kind of thing possibly working. Probably nothing else.

[@coreya603]

Maybe the new film will just be whimsical, gently comic stories about Sam and Rosie raising their kids in the Shire. Can’t wait to see what those little scamps get up to.

[@karenpojar2514]

"The Star Wars treatment": So, scripts crapped out in 2 - 3 days, no long term planning, no communication between teams, throwing out 50 years of lore/market research to "write our own stories", Bad Reboot insisting that all previous characters are killed off so they can push their own toys based on new merchandise they would get a cut of, and changing the tone completely to chase a "modern audience" that doesn't watch movies. Gotcha. It will be a shit fest.

[@kilendil]

I watched Rings of Power after all the episodes were out, and I was so hungry for fantasy shows that I didn’t immediately turn off that I thought, “I can’t decide if it’s LOTR-y or not, but I’m having a good time except for whenever Theo is on screen.” And then I rewatched The Two Towers (husband and I hardly ever get time to watch any movies, and Fellowship was a few years ago, ok?). And hooo boy. I forgot how good it is. I forgot how good all those movies are. So while I’m hesitantly optimistic that they won’t remake the trilogy anytime soon, I’m worried we’ll just get poorly-adapted fanfic that is a “good time” but doesn’t feel like Middle Earth.

[@guapocat203]

That’s how we win, Daniel. Not by fighting the Mordor we hate. But by saving the Mordor we love.

[@fredkelly6953]

You'd have to F#@k up pretty gargantuanly within the Star Wars universe to insert something that doesn't feel like it could belong on a planet in some solar system somewhere - Ruin Johnson: Hold my Green Milk.

[@_nixxie_]

Dang it Daniel ..... Now i NEED a Night angel adaption

[@InfamyOrDeath-__-]

They just can’t help themselves, modern Hollywood is incapable of adapting any of these franchises any more, because they just can’t stick to the source material. They have to change characters and destroy everything, and actually saying “the Star Wars treatment” is the most terrifying thing I’ve ever heard, because they utterly destroyed Star Wars. I’ve absolutely no idea why they’d say that, the vast majority of people absolutely hate the last trilogy, it was absolutely horrendous, I never even watched the 3rd movie because the Last Jedi so badly destroyed the universe.

[@johnwallace2319]

"you have to fck up, pretty gargantuanly within the starwars universe...", and they did exactly that, the field was wide open, almost no mistakes could be made, and yet their self-proclaimed homerun, landed in the only pile of dog crap on the field.

[@jeffagain7516]

Beautifully presented dear Sir. Subscribed. :)

[@robertmorrison4466]

Currently reading red rising and I absolutely loveee it! It would be amazing to get that on the big screen. I almost wish authors started to fundraisers or something to get their stories into movies or movie series. Almost like what the chosen has done🤷‍♂️

[@debiesubaugher]

Personally, I would LOVE to see "The Adventures of Gimli and Legolas". Encountering monsters, getting into mischief all the while fighting over rock vs tree.

[@chivalry373]

I completely agree with you. The universe of Star Wars is completely different than the universe of Lord of the Rings. Star wars was written in the 70s arguably by one man, but then tweaked and changed with the intention of putting it to screen, so right away the mode and the themes are not the same as a piece of literature written by one man in the early to mid 20th century. Star wars never had to be adapted to the screen, it was written for it, and has been expanded greatly upon throughout the years. Whenever I see an adaptation of a book to a film or television series, I am always frustrated when material is added that does not appear in the source material. I feel like in almost all cases, it does not do justice, or stay in sync with what the original author intended. I love Lord of the Rings as well. I wish corporate cinema would stop the "Star Wars" treatment of popular IP's just to earn money, and it is the money they are chasing. If they were listening to the fans, they would know that we don't want this.