Demon-Poster Doesn't Understand Frieren

[@beagleboy4ever]

It's funny how Frieren treating evil in the same way as the fairy tales of old feels fresh and revolutionary compared to most modern fiction.

[@dumdumer892]

The concept of beings that are adapted to manipulate and kill others and, thus are considered inherently evil, is so interesting. Sorta like vampires in a lot of cases. Obviously, there’s no real life comparison that can be made. That would be insane to think, so why can’t we just enjoy exploring this fantasy concept in a fictional story?

[@nullakjg767]

its more people talk this series up like its so good and fresh and its just the most basic and straight down the middle fantasy ever told. nothing about it is unique so people are just trying to figure out what makes it good.

[@reactiondavant-garde3391]

@@nullakjg767 I think this itself is interesting. Maybe people yearn for a well told, but simple story. I only read the first some chapters of the manga, but I think it was pretty nicely done.

[@OmniDan26]

@@dumdumer892 There is though and you know it, you know I know you know it, and you still lie.

[@ThisisKyle]

​@nullakjg767 what makes it good is the fact that it is a straight down the middle fantasy story. In an era that is filled to the brim with stories that feel the need to subvert everything and is writen by talentless writers who Couldn't Write themselves out of a wet paper bag, then it makes the straight down the middle fantasy story a novelty

[@16JPE]

Funny enough the demon in the village WAS given the chance to be redeemed and show that demons can be kind, but in the end a demon is still a demon.

[@Nero_PR]

And it's far from the interaction where we see a demon choosing their nature over anything else, going beyond logic or the feeling of coexistence with humanity. Every single time we were presented to a demon with human traits in their behavior, somehow the mask falls off and we get to see that they are beyond reasoning, as such is their nature. Demons in Fieren's world are not reasonable creatures.

[@heilamwether8911]

Yeah, people kinda forgot that: the demon that Himmel and Frieren let live only acted kind because they didn’t kill it immediately, and or the villagers treated it kindly. When it’s instincts took over, it still killed, since that’s its nature, but in return, helped the villager it killed his daughter, but gave back another human as a thanks for feeding her. They’re empathetic selfish machines that don’t know empathy, and only of logic, and only know action. The demon doesn’t know how to differentiate humans, only that of giving and taking. They’re like a dalics from Doctor Who in that regard.

[@16JPE]

@ the mistake himmel and the villagers made was that thinking the demon could be changed because its was a “child” when in reality that demon probably outlived all of them, except for frieren” by many years. she wanted to kill that demon on sight, just like the ones in the kingdom, she’s threatened to kill, but not outright just shot without thinking at a demon, I know she’s an elf, but she definitely learns from experiences, I’m just surprised she hasn’t done so in her many years of living.

[@FalseF4CZ]

It’s because Frieren still wants the humans to understand why it’s on sight for demons. She could’ve executed the 3 demons in the castle, but she specifically chose not to, probably to educate humanity as a whole that demons will never change and need to be killed. She’s tried in the past and the past was specifically with Himmel and the village. The way the village and Himmel finally understood demons, was that it took the death of another villager by the hands of the same demon they tried to rehabilitate. Frieren was just defaulting to the past, the castle needed to see what the demons actually are before accepting Frieren’s ideology of exterminating all demons.

[@hariman7727]

@@heilamwether8911 Yep. Language is a magic spell to keep humans from killing demons immediately.

[@Avenus112]

"A wolf wishes to eat a deer because that's what a wolf does, it's a predator and it needs meat. A deer has meat, which the wolf needs, therefore it's wrong for the deer to run from the wolf." - The level of this man's reasoning skills.

[@wetrisolesse619]

it has the same vibes as Lloyd means Water Water means Good Lloyd means Good

[@Cardinal_claw]

Absolutely the kind of person I'd love to ask if the most hated figures in history are just "misunderstood" Like small mustache man, a lot of his actions seemed rational to an extent to some of his followers. Abusers find their actions perfectly reasonable. At what point do you stop excusing terrible behavior? Where is the line in the sand?

[@FrozenRat161]

are wolves evil? should we whipe them off the earth? should we extend this reasoning to all beings that prey on other beings?

[@FrozenRat161]

if so, perhaps we should start with humans? afterall humans are the most prominent invasive predating species

[@gorn5264]

@@wetrisolesse619 This is flawless logic and to claim otherwise is blasphemy against the Shovel Demon King cult

[@Sivick314]

"demons are monsters who have taken human form to trick humans to kill them" "huh, who would fall for..." REAL WHOLE ASS HUMANS FALL FOR IT AND DEFEND THE DEMONS ....." damn that's a little too effective..."

[@faiir]

I mean, subverting the evil race trope was fun for some time. But at this point it feels like you're not allowed to have an actually evil species in fiction because some people can't differentiate between fiction and reality.

[@valariegutierrez1993]

​@@faiir it's not that people can't see the difference, it's that most of the time those "evil races" are either stand-ins, or allegorys for real life groups and people's. ,

[@migarsormrapophis2755]

Sentient = Not pure evil _Citation needed_

[@gravygraves5112]

lack of objective morality.

[@yosemitesam9576]

@@migarsormrapophis2755Thats what I don’t get, Pol Pot was fucking sentient. Is he not evil?

[@Neil.02]

This guy is EXACTLY the kind of person the demons would take advantage of. That reminds me of people who defend serial killers if they’re remotely attractive.

[@Lupin_the_second]

Ah yes... People actually do that It shock me Like damn girl He not gonna touch you

[@Dozarman]

@Lupin_the_second Well he gonna, just... Not the way she'd like.

[@Lesdrasill]

Doesn't even need to be serial. Look at the UHC shooter now

[@niggacockball7995]

Women do that a lot, not the smartest species out there.

[@fancyelk2373]

@@Lesdrasill with the complete lack of morality and worship of murderers these days I would be completely unsurprised if we spawn a warhammer chaos god Eldar style at some point

[@ColCoal]

FJE: “These demons evolved as predators to humans and are able to speak humanity’s language purely to deceive, kill, and eat humans.” Dummys: “So they are marginalized and we should sympathize.” FJE: WTF?

[@adammisner971]

the demons are so effective they tricked this guy outside the story lol

[@Kaelronpa4299]

​@@adammisner971these people probably the same people how want to romance a serial killer.

[@RambleOn07]

Mask off moment lol

[@KenjaTimu]

Evil is actually good is Satanism.

[@RedSunUnderParadise]

Which is funny since Demons in Frieren act and have ideologies and Hierarchies similar to Fascism.

[@PorktatoesSSRB]

What consuming too much "Sympathetic Villains" trope does to a MF,can't have evil villains be evil villains anymore

[@smugwendigo5123]

Exactly its a trope!! Not a standard!! People treat the sympathetic villain trope as a moral high ground and think that anyone who doesn't like the trope, is somehow a bigot? Or prejudiced?

[@trulybarr5341]

He’s not saying that demons can’t be pure evil, he’s saying that they are contradictory and messily written.

[@raythepony]

@@PorktatoesSSRBI think some folks think a pure villain character is bad writing. They've falsely equated pure villainy to lack of character depth.

[@NuttachaiTipprasert]

@@trulybarr5341 Nothing is contradicting or messy here except his reach. He hyper-analyzed some scenes too hard to find a sliver of contradiction when they worked perfectly fine as they were. Not everything has hidden messages or meaning.

[@hariman7727]

Honestly? Frieren's demons are one of the reasons the show is a new favorite of mine.

[@armchairwarrior963]

Goblin Slayer answers it the best. Who knows if there are good ones out there. But he doesn't care. He'll kill them all regardless.

[@rileyjfosbre6383]

This guy’s problem is that he takes offense to that. He opens his video by saying he had a “gut feeling” about Frieren that made him drop the show, and he only read the manga because he dismissed the “Watsonian explanations” the show gave in his tweets, so his other arguments are basically just a post hoc justification for his moral outrage that the author would include a race of irredeemable assholes in a fantasy story. It really is just the bug poster “why are we shooting the bugs, captain?” Argument but worse.

[@Tomeroche]

Goblin Slayer says the only good one would be one that doesn't come out of it's filthy cave. He'd basically never have to worry about encountering a good goblin because by the simple fact he knew to come slay it it had been a bad goblin.

[@KopperNeoman]

@@rileyjfosbre6383 I'm convinced that bugposters project real-life mass immigrants into things like the bugs, thereby self-reporting the intent behind mass immigration.

[@NoahSprague]

Oh I hope someone starts goblin posting 😅😅😅

[@zigazdovc6175]

@@rileyjfosbre6383 Actually both of them are wrong, Demons in Frieren are not actually an evil race, because they do not even understand the concept of evil or malice. Most people can not grasp the concept that morality is relative, you can not judge another race by human standard of what is moral, good or evil. Is a cat evil for killing a mouse? Yet we must kill the cat if we want the mouse to live, did we kill the cat because it is evil or because we want to protect the mouse?

[@chidori0117]

19:35 Its funny how he shows the scene where the demon girl goes "I somehow must have done something wrong" after she killed her foster father and tries to give the girl to the woman as an example of how demons understand how their actions affect others .... when the scene is there to explicitly show that they DONT. The reason she says that is because she understands that the humans are now hostile to her but she doesnt understand WHY. She thought what she was doing was a good idea. Its like the entire point of the scene. It is literally THE scene that convinces Himmel that the demons are fundamentally different to humans and incapable of understanding.

[@classicalextremism]

Another aspect of Ubel is that she does not kill people at random. She is not predating for the sake of empowering herself or destroying others. She does recognize boundaries in the justifications for killing others. As does Wirbel. But when she is able to kill she will relish it as we saw with the bandits, or be indifferent to it as we saw with her manslaughter during the prior mage exam. She thinks and operates differently, but is not an inherent threat to any and every. It actually highlights the stark contrast between a morally ambiguous human and demonkind, further sinking his argument.

[@marvinp90]

Agreed. She is also shown to be capable of showing compassion and concern for others, especially Land. Not to the same extent as most people but it is there. Also a difference with her vs the demons is she has the ability to change and become a better person which she has shown some progress towards (Admittedly I am not caught up to the manga yet so I may not be aware of everything yet)

[@Paratet]

Thank you! The Ubel comparison was so frustrating because while she lacks empathy, like demons, she doesn't kill in order to dominate or consume. She's shown to be genuinely affectionate and interested in other people. Her whimsical murderous impulse and lack of empathy is directly contrasted with Wirbel's more logical use of lethal magic. Their reasons for killing are both rooted in the human experience. Demons are wholly different in that they are just beasts, like Phantoms. They adapted to dominate and consume their prey. Their lack of empathy and humanity doesn't come from the same place. They don't have a genuine interest in how other species communicate, they just want to dominate them.

[@misanthropicservitorofmars2116]

She’s also TRYING to empathize with certain others so she can copy their magic.

[@misanthropicservitorofmars2116]

@@Paratetshe doesn’t lack empathy. She just has a very sociopathic use of empathy. She literally empathizes with Wirbel. It’s how she learned his restraint spell.

[@JanusXX]

There is another difference. Ubel is a psychopath, and that is what makes her strong apparently.

[@newIrons]

1. Tolkien doesn’t say that they don’t have souls 2. Morgoth cannot create, he can only corrupt. This guy here messed with Silmarillion, he shouldn’t have done that.

[@sterlingdavis8244]

He subscribes to Extra Credits' "progressive" line of thinking when it comes to Orcs.

[@spyro2002]

I think he mentioned that morgoth cannot create but he claimed that tolkein thought of that as a plothole or something. And then said that he could have just made morgoth be able to create evil souls but he didn't because "he was better than that" and basically made him some sort of moral pillar to strive for. After being enlightened on all the wrong info he had by wathving this video I doubt that's even true but even if it is, tolkein isn't the perfect exact example to follow in everything. Even if he had some peeve about how he handled souls, that's all that is, a writer's peeve. Artists are their own worse critics they say after all

[@bmetalfish3928]

Tolkien also decided it wasn't his place to determine if orcs have souls, he went back and forth whether or not they where alike to ants without dark spirit influence, or corrupted elves. Really fits the idea that the books are ancient records of an older civilisation, doesn't do any of the over explaining that people do when world building.

[@LTDLimiTeD1995]

@@bmetalfish3928 My personal interpretation of lotr Orcs is that they are so twisted away from Eru/God's creation that they innately either do not have a human soul left and are voids, slaves to the darklord's spirit that replaces the "soul" and/or exist in an innate state of (if you'll pardon the expression) being a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by their very nature.

[@erie3936]

​@@sterlingdavis8244 Weren't Orcs literally made from captured prisoners in a "evil factory"?

[@katajiro8178]

Reminds me of the line from Doom Eternal: ‘Demon’ can be an offensive term. Refer to them as ‘Mortally Challenged’.

[@SaltpeterTaffy]

The mortally challenged only speak to deceive humans. They are merely beasts capable of speech.

[@cecilsmith2061]

More like morally challanged lol

[@reddragon2943]

LOL. That shit made me Laugh. Mortally Challenged sounds Worst. Makes it sound like they are Retarded Like It's a Disease.

[@crustybomb115]

i almost forgot that line ngl...

[@Stint45678]

​@@cecilsmith2061No, the OP is correct.

[@mightyfineincredible2252]

Its especially hilarious because Frieren's story SHOWS how demons are evil more than once. The first demon group is trying to trick humans into opening the city gates to invade and cause forever-sleep The small demon killed its family that felt empathy for it Aura is violent and only feels bad for herself Nuh bruh, the demons are just misunderstood. Lmao

[@albertonishiyama1980]

To be fair Demons are less "evil" and more "animalistic", in the purest sense of the word. Friren's point is that they're not social animals, but rather predators that learned to parasite social animals and exploit it's weaknesses. The demon's in the City are basically doing a territorial protection, the humans invaded their territory and they're trying to get rid of them. The one who killed his family is similar to wild animals that people take as a pet (specially big cats). I think a lot of the problems come from this. It's easier to understand that going inside the territory of a Rhino isnt smart, or that having a wild Tiger as a pet (not the ones that milionaires buy, alread somewhat tamed, but real wild tigers) is asking for a painful death. But when the animal uses language, a thing we see as so utterly human, as their weapon things get lot more messy.

[@kuronya3582]

@@albertonishiyama1980 demons not animalistic, they psychopathic individulasists, they dont understand what compassion or pityness, even demons who want to understand people still dont see anything bad in mass murder

[@aurelian2668]

​@@albertonishiyama1980 my man, they might be animalistic, but they can be hostile and antagonistic. Which is yes, can exists especially since Humans are the same and Demons are also the same.

[@InfamyOrDeath-__-]

The demon from the Golden city is the most terrifying.

[@madhav6540]

​@@InfamyOrDeath-__-Fr but the weird one is even scarier

[@TheFrogspawnedOne]

I thought the demons in Frieren were excellent. They show how goodwill, kindness and generosity can make you vulnerable and how the worst people in the world can abuse the open-hearts of good people. Ironically, in defending demons, this man makes himself their ideal prey.

[@PlasmaMongoose]

The idea that demons are like humans but with horns and powers was a subversion on the concept that demons are just evil beings, but this trope has been subverted so often that it has become the new norm, so the fact that Frieren's demons are evil beings is now a subversion of this new norm.

[@CheeseOfMasters]

It's like he's a demon from the show/manga himself trying to manipulate humanity into not wanting to exterminate him.

[@lambofields1913]

Spot on

[@Chartus-ij1rp]

So what your saying is to gather the stones

[@RambleOn07]

​@@Chartus-ij1rpIslam was right about demons.

[@frank_calvert]

mhm, thats why its called demonposting

[@phatpat63]

It's almost as if there is a group of people who have grown so accustomed to defending abjectly evil things antithetical to human flourishing, that they just do it reflexively. 🤔

[@marumoru2773]

Its always funny how certain people approach pure evil fantasy races with this mindset that they are just misunderstood. No, an author can create creatures that have no shred of empathy and enjoy carnage. Being evil for the sake of being evil. I mean in the case of Frieren there is potential that somewhere is a demon that is like an anomaly and becomes actually human like. But that hypothetical demon would be the only individual in its whole race who could be considered friendly or harmless and no other would ever follow its footsteps because Frierens demons are in their core just monsters that mimic humans to kill them better

[@V972]

Macht tried...with mixed results.

[@kuronya3582]

@@V972 soliter also tried, result in donut, demon king also tried, result it genocidical war

[@aurelian2668]

​@@V972 Macht...seemed more confused reaply.

[@garreonlefay6703]

Solitar is a demon that actually understands human emotions, she still has her demon mentality but she understands those emotions to the point of being able to see some of her old comrades as friends in the same way a human does ..........And she tells Match coexistence is completely impossible. When the literal exception to the rule, in so much as she is, tells you it ain't possible then it is not possible

[@kuronya3582]

@@garreonlefay6703 solitair didnt come to understanding naturarly, she made multiple researches to get that understanding and for that goal she made multiple atrocious things

[@rigulur]

giving the argument the most generous consideration possible: even if something is capable of changing, redemption is something only you can work toward and demons literally never do that. every word they speak is poison and predation

[@relic5752]

While I don't disagree, I think the most generous example would be to take the demon child that Frieren uses as an example at face value. As in, she truly did not understand why killing her adoptive father to use his daughter - her adoptive sister - as a replacement for the child she killed was wrong. This shows that no matter how genuine they are, their values are so naturally alien and individualistic that they and humans simply can not coexist. Take note that her next actions were fully based on self-preservation, no guilt, no sense of having done something wrong, just that she miscalculated and immediately took said adoptive sister hostage. There is no negotiation with someone who simply can not register the idea of murder as wrong. Hell, we can even see it in her reasoning behind murdering the mayor, it was done in order to get the murdered girl's parents to not want to kill her - a selfish goal.

[@OmniDan26]

@@relic5752 No.

[@starburst98]

Later in the manga there is a demon attempting to learn empathy.... by killing people and studying how other people react to it. It genuinely wants to understand such a thing, but is just wired wrong and never can.

[@RambleOn07]

​@@OmniDan26explain.

[@atomicskull6405]

Macht was a demon who actually did try to be better and get along with humans, and failed at it because he just didn't understand what empathy and morality is. His attempts to try and learn these things led him to do some truly horrifying things.

[@somedud6960]

The fact that he claimed Tolkien, an extremely Christian author, would agree with him on the point that demons should have souls and shouldnt be completely evil is insane.

[@smugwendigo5123]

Correct me if im wrong, but orcs are literally incapable of existing in the same areas that good exists right? Like they actively flee from the worlds version of angels right?

[@skirenhost9182]

That these kind of people don’t understand that the behavior of the demons in frieren is a complete mirroring of how psychopaths manipulate everyone around them in the real world.

[@chinjianle269]

Demon, 恶魔, monster,魔兽. He is not understanding Japanese, demon are just monster that is deemed evil, as flamme says, demon are just a name given to a specific type of monster that manipulate lol

[@LTDLimiTeD1995]

Yeah, a lot of this discourse is confused because of how translations have caused weird blending of eastern/western "demons" and the like.

[@chinjianle269]

@@LTDLimiTeD1995 they can mean the same but for this particular is different, subtle word play with this

[@reggie1025]

If I remember right, he actually brings that up in the video as a defense of his own viewpoint. He pulled a completely different belief from his understanding of the differences in languages.

[@hariman7727]

@@LTDLimiTeD1995 It's because of the misconception that Christian demons (IE: Real Demons) can be redeemed. They can't. They CHOSE to fall, even knowing that they would suffer for eternity and HOW they would suffer for eternity. Frieren's Demons are actually the closest in fiction to that in a LONG time. The only difference is that Frieren's demons are just born that way, while actual demons chose to be evil. Six of one, a dozen of the other, and all of it evil.

[@AdHocWholius]

​@@hariman7727 People who rationalize evil comes from things like the halo effect and romanticism of the denigrated underclass. Paradise Lost's depiction of Lucifer as a spiteful, jealous, scheming, evil individual who receives eternal damnation is often romanticised due to his attractive appearance. Either they excuse evil because it is attractive, or because it aligns with their politics.

[@Lowlightt]

My favortie part about Frieren demons is that if you are defending them or think there is a way to work with them then they have succesfully lied to you be it with there words or actions. Which is what makes them such strong predators.

[@sterlingdavis8244]

This is also how real world narcissists, serial killers and sexual predators manipulate their victims as well, which is why I raise my brow in concern when these demonposters defend them so staunchly.

[@mug-o-tea9517]

well you can definitely work with them, people have used lions for there means, I don't see why someone strong enough couldn't capture a demon and use it as an executioner

[@minhkhangtran6948]

@@mug-o-tea9517Because a lion simply couldn’t vaporize your head off with a simple incantation, nor does a lion is able to assume human form and lie your ass off on anything and everything in order to eat you up. A lion already have body count of so many people dumb enough to do so (without protection), a demon would be so so much worse (when the best method of “protections” against them is giving them a third hole through the temple)

[@LTDLimiTeD1995]

Where are the mimic-posters? Mimics show a very similar analogue to how demons operate on pure animal instinct based on manipulative trapping.

[@bossked1563]

​@@mug-o-tea9517 Lions are beastial, with no inherent malice towards humans - keep them fed and happy, they're your best friend. Demons are cunning and malicious, meaning that even if you could find a way to channel them, they'll be actively attempting to sabotage you and, ultimately, kill you. Big difference.

[@STOTTINMAD]

This is the same guy that took the motivational phrase nothing is impossible, directed at Frieren specifically by Himmel to get her out of a slump, and somehow applied it to the completely unrelated demons.

[@melovech6675]

He also overlooked the fact that Himmel showed that the barrier wasn't impervious by chipping it. Yes the impossible can be overcome but you also have to be able to visualize it. That's a big part of Frieren that he just either omitted on purpose or failed to grasp.

[@hexi9595]

@@melovech6675This is the entire magic system in frieren. If you believe something is impossible then you can’t do it in a fundamental level. Thats why the girl with spells that focused around cutting stuff had an absurdly overwhelming advantage vs the instructor with magic resistant clothes and the magician who could manipulate her hair to be as hard as steel even though both were objectively stronger.

[@melovech6675]

@@hexi9595 oh for sure. My opinion is that this is how the world works in general in Frieren.

[@pizhhhout]

⁠@@hexi9595a lot of people seem to misunderstand this part. Imagination is different from visualization, when it comes to Frieren. Ubel can cut hair and fabric easily because cutting hair and fabric is common, something we see everyday. Therefore, she has clear image of how it happens/feels in her mind. She can’t just imagine herself cutting air hard enough to make her magic do it, because that’s literally impossible, even in the real world. There’s a scene that happens in a later arc where she wasn’t able to cut through a certain material, even though in the real world, we have lots of ways of shaping said material. Which is probably because she hasn’t seen it happen before in her life in their world. The reason she was able to cut the proctor’s heavily protected cloak is just that she hyperfixated on it being just cloth, instead of a cloth heavily-empowered by magic.

[@aetherblackbolt1301]

"I didn't think the Lion would eat MY face!" - member of the Lion Eating Face community after voting to free the lions and let them into the city.

[@Aciarr]

yes!! exactly!!

[@niggacockball7995]

Amerigolems voting for the jews for the 109th time

[@andressierra457]

Posters who defend bugs and demons (9 times out of 10) are only telling on themselves.

[@andressierra457]

That 1 out of 10 was Orson Scott Card in Ender's Game. 😅

[@KopperNeoman]

@@andressierra457 "Bugposting" is about the Bugs in Starship Troopers - the Ender's Game bugs are completely different beasts.

[@dumdumer892]

10:51 the demon could just be angry that they are negating one of the largest advantages they have over humans, or at least challenging the way they hunt humans, and call her a “coward” because they know that humans, generally, don’t like feeling like cowards. I assume most actions the demons take and most things they say are in-service of learning about humans to better exploit them or harming them in some way, since that’s what we’ve been told about how demons operate. At least that’s all I know where I’m at in the manga.

[@nullakjg767]

its just bad and inconsistent writing. the series isnt about coherent world building. its about freiren learning how to have emotions, so triumping over the "evil race that has no emotions" is part of her character arc.

[@dumdumer892]

@ I don’t think it’s necessarily bad writing. The demons remind me of the bear from Annihilation or the Corpse Weepers from Made in Abyss. They’re just mimicking humans to hunt them better. I’m through volume 6 of the manga and so far that seems to be how they’ve been described and represented.

[@nullakjg767]

@@dumdumer892 the corpse weepers do that to lure people in but are still very clearly living beings with sentience and also clearly feel emotions such as fear. if they wanted evreyone to see the demons as emotionless, they did a bad job by showing them having emotions even when it didnt benefit their "hunt". They also dont even need to do it because they are clearly stronger than the humans. frirens entire character is "i dont understand emotions" so it would be pretty foolish to take her evaluation of emotions as law. and i would never EVER compare freiren and MIA because MIA is all about having great worldbuilding that the characters must navigate, while freiren is so powerful, she exists independent of the world and can make her mark on it however she sees fit. what counts as a sentient intelligence worth empathizing with and what doesnt is a very interesting scify concept that is just being done very poorly here. Try reading the series "children of time" if you want to see examples of how communication between species can easily be misinterpretted or their frame of reference is so alien because our very senses and societies we build define the world as we understand and how difficult it can be to connect with another species. the idea that what seperates the humans from the demons is that "humans dont use emotional manipulation to get what they want" is just not familiar to me. Thats actually the most human thing about the demons lmao.

[@dumdumer892]

@nullakjg767 I’ll try and check that out, thanks for the recommendation! That said, I disagree with your argument about them mimicking emotions not having to do with “the hunt”. I think their entire being is related to manipulating humans. Like I said, I’m not far in the manga so maybe there’s a twist later but so far the demons seem to be all about manipulating and hunting humans and their actions seem in line with that. I don’t think that they have the fire power to simply wipe out or “defeat” the humans, elves, and dwarves and use them for cattle, or whatever they’d do with them either. Also, Frieren does understand emotions it’s just harder for her to put herself in another person’s shoes who doesn’t have as long of a life, and the resulting experience, that she does. No offense, I really appreciate hearing your criticisms and responses, I just don’t understand your points about the bad worldbuilding. I’ve been reading/watching Frieren over the past year or so, so maybe I’m misremembering a scene or something where you could point to a line(s) that you think illustrates an issue with the story that you’re talking about? What I’ve said is how I remember the story going and based on that, I think it works fairly well. Also, also, I might not be remembering the corpse weepers correctly. I thought that the CW itself was mimicking the cries of its recent victims? I didn’t think they were really very intelligent either, if that’s what you meant. I thought they were just animals, as far as we were aware.

[@adammisner971]

oh that's a good point. Kinda like how they cry mommy when they're about to get blasted

[@greatclubsandwich5612]

Lugner calling out to Linie as an example of empathy is where I checked out of the video. Its so wildly inaccurate that is pains me. Lugner didn't care about Linie as a person. He wasn't sad when Draught died, nor her. He is calling out because he is frustrated his ally was killed by a human and is now unable to turn a fair fight into a 2 on 1 in his favor. Its a purely pragmatic response... Its literally "Shite there goes my advantage..." He would send 1000 Linies to their painful death if it meant killing Fern and Stark and he wouldn't bat an eye or shed a single remoirseful tear for any of them.

[@platogkrone7161]

Wot? How is taking your attention away from a deadly opponent to yell at a dying person a pragmatic response???

[@greatclubsandwich5612]

@platogkrone7161 He's not a machine. He is not programed to make the ideal 1000% logical action at any given time. He is surprised that she lost (he believed she could be at him no problem) and is taken a back at this turn of events and reflexively varifies with his own eyes. My point, is that it was NOT an empathic or sympathetic response. He doesn't care that she had died beyond the PRAGMATIC benefits she provides to him/for him and now she can't anymore. That's my point.

[@platogkrone7161]

@@greatclubsandwich5612 Eh... 1: That's unprovable. 2: Demons have been shown to like each other at other points in the manga. Lack of affective empathy does not preclude that.

[@greatclubsandwich5612]

@platogkrone7161 "That's unprovable..." My brother in Christ I can't ask the fictional character what his opinions are. All you can go by is the actions of Lugner in the media provided. How did he react when Draught died? He didn't care one bit. He said "Oh he must be dead." sat down. read a book and went on with his life. Why would Linnie be any different? She is just as much a tool for him as he was. They have no familial bonds, she is merely an underling. There is evidence to support this. There is no evidence that Lugner cared for her in any way beyond this. The scene presented is just as much tailored to my pragmatic view an an empathetic one. But the previous example of Draught, as well as his own admission, and Frieren's opinions, and flash backs related to demons heavily sway it in my favor. To ignore it all to inject a different meaning to the scene is just ridiculous. "Demons have been shown to like each other..." Ok... so? Liking someone does not exclude you from being evil. Hitler had friends. He had a pet dog... And yet he still did heinous things that are considered evil. Demons might like each other. But they will also kill that person they like if it benefits them. That's the lack of empathy. You openly admit that they are separate things. Having a preference over something else does not equal morals. Moreover, you have no evidence that Lugner had any feelings for Linnie. Again see my previous point. He very well might of liked her more than Draught, probably because she was more useful (mana detection) and was more loyal/obedient (stayed put and didn't go and get herself killed.) But then those are all PRAGMATIC REASONS.

[@platogkrone7161]

@@greatclubsandwich5612 "My brother in Christ I can't ask the fictional character what his opinions are." Yes, that is the _point,_ blockhead. I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your essay because I have better things to do than argue about fictional characters for hours with a stranger.

[@donaldwright8567]

The Demon in Frierem are more similar to Bram Stoker Vampires than Tolken Orcs. Unredeemable monsters with the superficial outward appearance of normal humans that lull their targets into a false sense of security through psychological (as well as mystical) manipulation.

[@faiir]

My only takeaway from his vid is that creating or popularizing a spell that gives full spectrum of human emotions could resolve the conflict.

[@misanthropicservitorofmars2116]

@@faiirlol a demon would view that as a horrific curse upon their species. That’s actually hilarious though. Cursing a demon with human thoughts and feelings 😂

[@misanthropicservitorofmars2116]

@@faiirit wouldn’t. You’d have to cast it on the demon king or whoever is the highest ranking demon. They’re extremely hierarchical based on mana. If you used this on just any demon. A higher level demon would just kill them.

[@generalgarchomp333]

I honestly forgot he used the El Dorado arc as a reason that demons can be good. Like bro the entire point of the arc was that Demons are incapable of morality and emotions as we have them. Like iirc Frieren or one of the demons pointed out that he'd probably become another demon king MEANING THAT THE FUCKING DEMON KING HAD THE SAME GOAL yknow THE GUY WHO GENOCIDED THE ELVEN RACE(save for like 5 individuals) AND RUTHLESSLY EXTERMINATED HUMANS. Like holy moly i did not remember the sheer degree of intentional misunderstanding this man did in the video and I already hated it.

[@kagato23]

Macht destroyed an entire city and did some fucked up shit before that and the sum total was he managed to make a single human friend.

[@jeice13]

10:30 the demons also don't like humans concealing mana because it makes it harder to fight them effectively (or decide not to fight them when they will lose)

[@animeuploader4992]

Just like hie humans won't hunt certain animals without a gun I wil not sympathize with demons but I will never call them evil

[@kagato23]

No it’s more than that. It’s hitting on their blue and orange morality. This is an actual bad thing for them. Flamme even notes this, it’s not just among themselves they will do it in front of humans as well. That’s why we saw him genuinely more upset about that than the fact he was dying.

[@guillehdz]

Dude really tried to convince us that the demons who were shown trying to deceive humans to destroy them were actually some misunderstood victims, this is like listening to a lawyer say that his client isn’t the one wearing no mask in the recording of a bank robbery

[@SockieTheSockPuppet]

Even the one that pulled the "I took your kid, here's one from the family I just destroyed" was a purely transactional move, it fundamentally misunderstanding that you can't just fix a dynamic like that. *_Because that's the point._* Human behavior and thinking is alien to them.

[@PolishNomad95]

I genuinely distrust anyone who demonposts unironically. They are arguing in bad faith to advance a position just so that they can claim moral superiority over fans of the show rather than engaging with the work on its terms. And if they do that over a simple fantasy anime I can't trust them to be genuine about things that actually matter.

[@ZeroNumerous]

I have the same approach to chaosposters in 40k. I trust them about as far as I can throw them.

[@RambleOn07]

​@@ZeroNumeroustrue, 40k does have the most accurate factions for progressives.

[@chack321]

You're wrong. They genuinely believe this. They have what is called "outgroup preference".

[@SmolTerribleTornado]

Indeed

[@bigdot2355]

People like these who unironically post villains and bad guys are misunderstood/are actually the good guys often project themselves unto said villains and bad guys. Feeding off their negative and isolated outcast nature. Making them feel as if they're them! As if they're the ones being oppressed!

[@LPetal86]

I love this, so much. There are so many "interesting" persons on the Internet who must always try to defend the worst, most evil characters.

[@SteveoDeMayo]

Look up physiognomy and you will understand.

[@LPetal86]

​@@SteveoDeMayoNah, I don't need physiognomy to tell me the demons in this show are classically evil, it was their actions and their explanation about being predators that did the trick just fine.

[@ThisisKyle]

​@@SteveoDeMayoI think I only covers like a quarter of the people that do this I genuinely believe that the vast majority of people that do this on ironically relate to evil people because they are evil themselves

[@mikhailabraham421]

@@LPetal86 To me there was one exception, Macht, now don't get me wrong; he was still inherently evil, but way more tame because he lacked understanding, and he's not that fond of conflict. (I'm not gonna write a whole essay on him, so ima stop here).

[@Knuckles2761]

@@mikhailabraham421 zoltraak creator was cool, he did invent it mostly to be efficient killer, but also in his love for magic.

[@Seedmember]

Demons: want to EXTERMINATE humans. People on the internet: But guys, they might not be evil.

[@fenrir607]

Bro was a demon who got killed by Frieren, and got isekai'd to our world and is still salty.

[@rileyjfosbre6383]

God, it really is just the Extra Credits Orc video all over again. This bothers me because I actually *like* looking at the Demons from a mechanical/biological perspective, or examining the “Watsonian Explanations”, as he likes to put it. So while I’m measuring the demons based on whether they’re consistent with their established rules and lore and asking questions like “why do some of the demons look like monsters? Are there subspecies of demon like the Chaos Flower?” Or “Where do demon souls go when they die? Does Frieren have an after life for monsters?” He’s basically terminating the discussion by saying it’s immoral the demons are written this way in the first place, regardless of how consistent they are with their characterization, and the author should change it to something else either by adding in a retcon or providing a “Doylist explanation” out of universe to recontextualize them. I think the reason people reject bug posters so harshly is they’re goal is to yank you out of the story by dismissing the rules laid out by the narrative and placing a moral judgement on the author and by extension the audience who supports them. And, in this case, he either doesn’t realize that’s what he’s doing, or is trying to camouflage it with his other “points”, just like how Extra Credits said “we aren’t saying it’s bad your game has evil Orcs, we just think it’s lazy and if Orcs were real, they’d be offended by your portrayal of them.” Then they act shocked when they get dunked on.

[@reactiondavant-garde3391]

I think you are partly right, but the other half of why we hate bugposters is the simple fact thet most of the time they have a strange hatred towards humanity. Everything thet pose explicit and clear danger to humans have to be depicted as misunderstood or oppressed in some way or form. As if humans should never defend themself because self defense itself is somehow bad.

[@mercaius]

People like this love to say that they are expanding the stories we can tell by making every race "just as complex as humans." But they are actually limiting it--we already had humans. Their attitude prevents us from truly exploring the inhumane, the alien, and the allegorical.

[@johnduquette7023]

@@mercaius The thing is that things like demons and orcs _can_ be more complex while still being true to the inspiring idea. That, however, entails that you recognize that these things have a nature that _needs_ to manifest itself. Changing how it manifests reveals a new dimension of that fundamental nature. The problem is that these sorts of people are tabula rasa proponents, so they must deny that organisms have a fundamental nature.

[@hafirenggayuda]

I do hope the 2nd season would be arrive soon so people can see more viewpoint from the demon. The Demons are still sympathetic, but humanity would be fully exterminated if demons allowed to do what they want

[@TieberiusVoidWalker]

@@mercaius Yeah man one of my favorite world building projects had the idea of an alien race who was so tribalistic that the absolute destruction of their culture was the only way to stop them and most of the galaxy was disturbed by this fact but they have to do it anyways since they will just continue to kill everyone or die since betraying their tribe caused such intense psychological pain that they would often end themselves.

[@RedEyesBlackKnight]

Hes a contrarian, and this isn't the first time lextorias has done it either. The level of smug he gives off should be considered a toxic hazard.

[@spyro2002]

what other videos was he like this? I watched his video of picking a random anime to wacth and I thouhgt that one was fun, and then some other one about gaming but i don't remember much of anything about it which is why I was conflicted after the frieren video because he didn't really have a abd precident in my mind, even thought this video definitely helped clear thigns up in my head, but now you got me curious what his history of doing things liek this is

[@hayond656]

I wanna know the same thing as the other reply

[@VermyScrubs]

​@@spyro2002 The truth is that in reality its just people blowing up a bad take to mean something more. "Lex made a bad point, I knew he was a bad guy". Do I agree with his reasoning? No, I believe that the demons in Frieren are evil because thats what the author has so far written them to be. But we've all made a bad take or bad interpretation, its part of being human in the modern day and yet the rigtheous internet has to find something to get mad about. It's litteraly just a braindead interreptation of the show, something we are all guilty of. It's a nothing burger that people are desperate to try to add the filling.

[@Nero_PR]

Idk, this is first time I see such a controversial opinion coming from Lextorias as most of his videos are informative pertaining to the subject in question. I do think he read Frieren through the wrong lens and came with a stupid opinion about the message and how characters are construct as later on the Manga itself touches on the subject of coexistence between humans and demons more than once, showing it is impossible as demons' constitution doesn't let them "feel" the necessary empathy or have the emotional intelligence to understand human emotions and see them beyond playthings or food. Lextorias did a terrible job at interpreting how Fieren's world works, well, at least with the information provided by the author until this point in time.

[@Njordin2010]

He has about 3 or 4 of those videos. He just is a moral relativist (like many others). Normally that doesn't influence his videos much but i don't like to support people with such destructive ideas though i respect his opinion. Edit: he misses the point in other topics, too. Wouldn't watch deep analysis from him but watch recommendations are fine if you are looking for that

[@jamememes4114]

Just beginning to watch. By any chance: does this colourful bugman have a video to explain how Griffith did nothing wrong? Or not yet?

[@mebutinglasses9152]

Just read Beserk, and I can confirm that Griffith did nothing wrong. He's just a goofy silly guy🤪😋 he didn't understand what he was doing 😢

[@jamememes4114]

@mebutinglasses9152 🤣🤣🤣

[@Bonibello]

he should make a video defending my boy bondrewd he didnt do anything wrong, guy was wholesome and even did some cute lunchboxes for children or something

[@faiir]

I mean, it's actually easier to defend bugs than demons for me.

[@cynixxi]

@@Bonibelloi have seen a video saying Bondrewd did nothing wrong.

[@marchmelloow]

19:35 Dolphins are super intelligent, yet they are one of the most evil animals out there.

[@elisehalflight]

I agree with your point, but honestly dolphins are kinda low in the evilness scale of the animal kingdom, some species of bug literally can't preproduce without killing their partner, and SA is a constant across many birds, otters have a thing for killing pups in order to get the mother available for reproduction and then there are the ants... constantly waging wars and enslaving other species....

[@oyamampendu9467]

By human standards sure in animal kingdom non of that.

[@smugwendigo5123]

Animals dont have a concept of morality, its about survival, and whe. It comes to survival, if it works it works.

[@hariman7727]

@@elisehalflight A lot of animals will kill cubs to make a female go into heat faster. Apes and Monkeys go to war with neighboring tribes, and will cannibalize the young of captured females for months after the capture. Screw worm larva eat child eyeballs. (Seriously though... we really should just wipe them out instead of just keeping them confined to one area.) There's also certain wasps that paralyze other insects and put eggs into the bodies of their victims as both incubators and food for their young. Nature is horrifying, and Demons are just a natural form of evil.

[@KopperNeoman]

@@smugwendigo5123 Dolphins are one of the few exceptions, hence why they can be evil fuckers. Their minds are just about capable of empathy and compassion, so when they play with pufferfish to get high off the poison, they know what they're doing. Dolphins can even fall in love, which is another reason why bestialists are scum.

[@darkmega97]

That's him, that's the guy that would have gotten his whole village killed by demons

[@xanthippus9079]

This dude is a great partner to camp in the wild. In case you find a vicious predator, tell him to talk the beast down and run away. Judging by his mass, he could also keep the poor misunderstood creature occupied for a while.

[@ИгошинНикита]

Nice one :D

[@MoreEvilThanYahweh]

Unfortunately, you just turned whatever he's distracting into a man-eater if wasn't already. Which is a serious issue depending on what part of the world you're in.

[@crustybomb115]

@@MoreEvilThanYahweh would you rather try to have him around? knowing hes probably gonna learn ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY nothing from that experience?

[@MoreEvilThanYahweh]

@@crustybomb115 Maybe it's the videos I've been watching, but a large enough predator that's learned to eat people can achieve body counts of even a hundred historically depending on the particular area. Definitely a far greater human cost than anything gained from teaching that guy a possibly final lesson

[@networknomad5600]

@@MoreEvilThanYahweh Eh, what people forget about maneaters is they tend to die quickly. Humans are EXCELLENT at hunting things that are actually dangerous to us.

[@Protect_all_ljf3forms]

wow he got the demons wrong entirely. Even after they made a point to prove his way of thinking wrong. that was the whole point of the story of that village letting a demon into the village.

[@zigazdovc6175]

Both sides of the argument are wrong though, the Demon are not good, evil or anything in between, they are so alien to humans we can not project out morality onto them, saying that the Demons are evil is just as wrong as saying that they are misunderstood.

[@TRENCHESandTREADS]

@@zigazdovc6175 This is nonsense. We are humans, we base morality on our own perceptions and existence, if we didn't no one would be having a conversation about morals at all, it would be impossible to talk about any non-humans actions. By human standards the Demons are evil, period. It doesn't matter if those standards don't comport to the Demons themselves, or anything for that matter, because by claiming that something that isn't human can't have human morality placed upon it you are effectively just taking the bugposters side in the argument. 'The demons are just misunderstood' is the same as 'they are so alien we can't understand them', their is no functional difference between the two concepts when you get down to it.

[@araaraaura1887]

​@TRENCHESandTREADS I'm not sure if it really works since the demons are intelligent, but I don't think putting the demons outside of human morality is the same as saying they're misunderstood. Take a man-eating tiger as an example. They have been one of the few species to actively prey on humanity. In multiple recorded instances, they have for some reason or another decided to murder a lot of humans. They are terrifying monsters, but I wouldn't consider them evil in the same way I would a serial killer. There's some hard-to-define element missing there that I suspect is something to do with intelligence. Evil seems to me to require some sort of intentionality, which I do not believe an animal can possess. Using that metric, it comes down to whether the demons are truly sapient or are actually just highly advanced mimic predators that are so good at mimicry that they seems sapient to us.

[@spyro2002]

@@zigazdovc6175 it's not that good and evil are objective concepts but that FOR A HUMAN the point of those concepts is to show who is good for them or bad for them, and demons are very much bad for them so as far as a human is concerned they're evil.

[@AsogiMK]

@@TRENCHESandTREADS You're the one talking nonsense, something that does not obey human morality doesnt mean necessarly evil, gravity doesnt not obey human morality, entropy does not obey human morality, chemical reactions do not obey human morality, unicelular organisms do not obey human morality( they are both essential for our existence as pluricelular organisms and at the same time responsible for our death in many scenarios), with understanding evolution and how proteins evolved into unicelulars organisms that can be both good and bad for our existence in this world we can break down your argument to nonsense. If we are defining evil as something inherently bad for our survival as a species then we need to prove that that the exctition of said evil would not eventually doom us to exctition.

[@Ryodraco]

I think it is notable that the series never calls demons an "evil" race. Rather they are a species that is fundamentally incompatible with and harmful towards humans. There are harmless monster species in the series, but the demons literally evolved to hunt humans. It's true they don't need to eat humans, but they are compelled to regardless, to the point that it is likely impossible for any who associate with humans to not kill some at least sometimes. Some SPOILERS follow: Add in utterly lacking empathy (Solitar noting how it would make no sense for them to have this as it would inhibit them in hunting humans), and you have a species that doesn't really have options for peaceful coexistence. A lot of people also seem to get it wrong when it comes to the emotions that demons in Frieren can feel. Yes, they can feel sad, happy, angry. Nobody should deny that. But they cannot feel guilt, empathy, malice, or the sort of love a human would feel for another sapient being. When they "love" something it is rather like how we would love an object or possession. Macht may have come close to surpassing this, but even in the end he had no understanding of why he behaved differently from how a demon should, and he only reached that point when he was literally dying.

[@elisehalflight]

I think it really boils down to the lack of empathy, they're not social the way humans or even mammals are. They're closer to komodo dragons who only get together in order to hunt but disband shortly after and live mostly solitary lives.

[@vla1ne]

solitar and macht alone disprove this guys whole argument. they are arguably the two closest current examples to demons that "understand" humans, and one of them was so insanely lethal to humanity that not a single human that had encountered her had lived to tell the tale. While the other was considered to be a top 3 threat to humanity, by the simple fact that there was nobody to that date who could even conceive of a counter to him, and he pretty much glassed (golded?) a city on whim.

[@mediocreplayer8137]

I genuinely don't understand how people misinterpret things such as "demons are bad", when the author gives multiple examples to the reader that are on the nose about how evil demons can be, manipulating, lying, and more. Evil races in fiction aren't something that should disappear because of people like him that don't like the concept of something like that. Evil races are, just like you said in the video, somewhat of a representation of the worst of humanity in some way. But it seems a lot of people in this era just can't avoid doing mental gymnastics to say "This fictional race is a representation of this people from this country from our world."

[@Kuch303]

It's wild how someone can misinterpret a story that much, when it's made EXTREMELY obvious that demons have no concept of morality and therefore have no problem commiting horrible acts, which obviously makes them evil. To me, this guy just seems like he thinks of himself as an intellectual when he's actually stupid and extremely dishonest in his arguments.

[@kagato23]

Evil implies a choice to do the opposite of good. Tricking, killing and eating humans is what a demon is SUPPOSED to do. A demon who is doing anything else is an aberration.

[@mediocreplayer8137]

@@kagato23 That's not how it works, morality, good and bad are things that we humans created to differentiate what things could be the doom of our society or things that give no actually valuable benefit. Demons are bad, because they are a danger to society, not only humans, but also elves, dwarfs and mortal races in general. If animals were to have equal intelligence to ours and we were still eating them, we will definitively be considered evil by those intelligent animals standards.

[@ucutiepie6564]

Pretty sure this guy watched the demon arc and his brain immediately defaulted to "this feels racist somehow", and then just worked his way backwards from there to logically justify that vague feeling

[@eXpriest]

I mean it is, but in this case its pragmatic racism instead of just tribalism; demons are incompatible with human existence, its like having empathy for malaria.

[@InDeathWeLove]

It literally all comes down to he doesn't think people should create fiction with sentient beings that are irredeemably evil because it feels icky to him due to his political opinions. All other points are just ways for him to work towards that conclusion and aren't honest critiques.

[@eXpriest]

@@InDeathWeLove Evil is a qualitative judgement based on subjective morality. Demons being evil is irrelevant. Demons being incompatible with human (and elf/dwarf/whatever) life is the germane bit.

[@InDeathWeLove]

@@eXpriest Actually there are various interpretations of what evil means yours being only one of the many. In my opinion something sentient acting counter to human wellbeing/prosperity is evil. None of that matters since you aren't event addressing the germane part of my comment that being that Lex problem is with the "evil" or as you would prefer to label it incompatible with human life nature of the demons and not any of the other arguments he spends most of his video making.

[@eXpriest]

@@InDeathWeLove If there are multiple interpretations then it's subjective, right? That's what subjective means.

[@yesshuayarrden777]

😆 The whole "sympathy for the devil" concept just baffles me. C'mon, evil is evil. I'd rather not be redundant, but it's a simple concept.

[@KopperNeoman]

Any sympathy for the devil is predicated on God deceiving him. And the idea of God deceiving anyone is so out-of-pocket that it simply makes no sense. The most He has ever done is withhold the truth. The Devil fooled himself into believing himself greater than the one who gave him his mighty intellect, and he never repented his mistake. It's all his fault.

[@CrysResan]

The telling thing about that? If I understand the words correctly sympathy is for someone akin to yourself. A decent person could never have sympathy for the devil- at "best" they could empathize with the devil but never sympathize because the devil isn't akin to them.

[@lambofields1913]

Yeahh... to these people, they'd label that "phobic" or some such nonsense to defend evil. More along the line that they unironically empathize with it and doesn't get why people don't like and embrace it.

[@ThisisKyle]

​@@KopperNeomanwithholding the truth is quite literally by the definition of the word deception. Sorry to tell you this but God is inherently evil

[@SonicFan313]

@@lambofields1913 -why cant you understand this poor misunderstood creature? Are you just too stubborn and heartless to feel something for something other than yourself? -How about we begin from the fact it gnaws on the hand of our friend? The one that was alive 5 minutes ago? -… Hypocrite

[@zkeletonz001]

I like how he completely ignores the part where Lugner says that Freiren is exactly right about demons.

[@MusouKing4816]

I betcha this guy thought the goblins in Goblin Slayer were just misunderstood.😂

[@drockwell1583]

But that one goblin said he was sorry.

[@RambleOn07]

This guy wishes he could live like those goblins.

[@xanthippus9079]

@@MusouKing4816 Soon he'll make a video about how those goblins remind him of black people, therefore the author is racist.

[@cipherstormwolf14]

@@xanthippus9079 Oh yes, their classic "argument". LOL.

[@nnk_ll2]

The projection here The guy said something stupid therefore he has also this and this and that other opinion that's obviously stupid because....yes

[@penofficial_]

Another piece of evidence that demons don't have feelings at all is that Macht turned an entire city to gold, essentially killing everyone there, despite not being able to feel malice towards humanity. This just proves that he did everything, not out of malice, but just out of some sort of bizarre curiosity. And if you can kill for curiosity, there is no redeeming that.

[@Serocco]

The tragedy of Macht's arc is that Macht only came to that realization as he was dying too.

[@kagato23]

They do have feelings. They are just very alien feelings.

[@darkshao51]

@@Serocco He's never realized anything. The only thing he realized was that he didn't understand anything about humans.

[@darkshao51]

@@kagato23 They can only have feelings in a selfish way.

[@KopperNeoman]

@@darkshao51 He realised that a demon like him is completely incapable of grasping at such eldritch knowledge as "compassion". If you pity demons like him, then there's only one way to get them out of this predicament...

[@theryudama]

funny how watching the show would give you the correct answer but somehow people can reach the wrong conclusion

[@izzymosley1970]

The demon posters big mistake with demons is just thinking that because they are intelligent that they have free will specifically the will to resist their instincts which they do not.

[@RambleOn07]

I think it's that they view sentience and intelligence *as* signs of morality. And that they think of themselves as the pinnacle of reason. So, anything with the capacity to reason will eventually come to their way of thinking. As, after all, this man claimed that pride was a sign of morality. So, you already know just how well reasoned he and his ideology are.

[@kuronya3582]

Sentience and insticts are literally cant coexist, demons just lack of empathy and sympathy

[@angbinh2043]

@@kuronya3582 Their instincts lead them to be sentience, sentience to kill. They đont understand language, they just speak it because it make the killing easier. Like a lion see a deer drinking water at a river, the lion gonna know it can get food by going to the river.

[@kuronya3582]

@@angbinh2043 instincts are biological program what cannot be turn off, like reproduction instinct, animals just CANT denie instinct when it kick in, demons dont have instict because they are got properr sentience through evolution

[@Cosmosdestructor]

@@kuronya3582humans have instincts, too. We just have the ability to ignore/deny them. Self-preservation is instinctual, and reproduction is an instinctual desire. We humans have the ability to ignore our self-preservation instinct, and the ability to not act on our instinctual reproductive desires. So yes, sentience and instincts can and do coexist.

[@BioMatic2]

I honestly i find Frierens return to form by using the common subversion as a trap, very interesting. And their explanation of predators mimicking their prey is something i dont see often in the way its portrayed. Normally mimicry is used in the sense stealing identeties or shapeshifting. But Demons expose themselves as they are physically while mimicking human emontional preasure points to make them lower their guard. It reminds me about how some big cats (dont remember wich one exactly) would mimick the sounds of prey. Pd: also woah, this guy made the worst take about Frierens emotions that i've ever seen.....like completely misses the point of episode 1

[@leobuana7430]

It's more commonly observed on tiger replicating sambar deer matings call and it's Not limited to big cat,there's anecdotes of puma learning how to whistle to bait some birds as well

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

@@leobuana7430 house cats have been observed micking and trying to mimic bird sounds.

[@neoqwerty]

@@matthiuskoenig3378 My experience with house cats has been that they cry like human babies, which would probably be terrifying if they hadn't evolved that trait to specifically make us RESPOND FASTER when they call for us (no, really, their yells for food/outside/dirty poopbox? they evolved to make them set off the same brain alarms as a crying child does in parents). In that way it's more terrifying than doing it for prey-- cats are basically doing vocal mimicry to make us be their butlers (and, technically, so that we do their hunting for them). ...Imagine if demons got to that point, "please go get me some human meat, I'm sooooooooo hungry I'm gonna staaaaaaaarve to deaaaaaaaaaath" and it's effective?

[@mightyfineincredible2252]

I'm waiting for the moment he compares the demons to "immigrants" and "muslims" out of nowhere and acts as if he made some superior moral observation

[@KopperNeoman]

It's a self-report. Or it would be, except that Muslims can choose to stop being Muslim, whilst demons can't stop being demons even if they try.

[@seg162]

"In a way, are the demons not justified in their actions?"

[@sterlingdavis8244]

I'd say Extra Credits' "Orcs are black people" take is a more fitting comparison given race/skin tone is an immutable trait, whereas faiths can be ascribed to or abandoned of an individual's own free will, this is why EC's take was (rightfully) called out and mocked due to the shocking level of self-report and projection of their own inherent bigotry that they try to cover-up with their virtue signaling post-modernist dreck about how one playing a "WWII German Soldier" makes a videogame player "just as bad" IRL despite the fictional setting/roleplaying context.

[@themanofmovies8104]

​@@seg162 >Leaves out that the cannibal family grapes/ trys to grape one of the females from the normal family >Also leaves out how the normal family wasn't doing anything to deserve the cannibals hunting them down Someone tell in praise of shadow to get checked by a doctor for brain damage Man could someone please tell in praise of shadows to get his hea

[@jchoneandonly]

Funny how virtue signalers relate so much to the demons that they have to try to prove they're not evil.

[@bernkastel7438]

Fr lol

[@JynxedTea]

17:00 Got me convinced he put Frerien on the side monitor while playing a video game.

[@dumdumer892]

“The power of my KZbin channel”. Lol who is this…?

[@sterlingdavis8244]

A dime-a-dozen contrarian pseudo-intellectual post-modernist who went to cry on Bluesky when his video didn't get the reaction he wanted.

[@meepkiwicat]

@@sterlingdavis8244 Did he get roasted on Bluesky too?

[@attilaedem101]

@@meepkiwicat beeing roasted on Bluesky with such a take? No way, he's gonna only get positive praise for it there (and everyone who didnt get banned within minutes for "harassment")

[@adammisner971]

Bugposters are unironically the worst people. They will defend ANYTHING that kills humans, even literal giant bug monsters. They have a mental disorder.

[@dumdumer892]

I never knew “bugposting” was even a thing. I mean I knew people defended the bugs and hate the humans in Starship Troopers just not that this was called “bugposting”. That said, I do think that the humans have mixed morality in Starship Troopers and the bugs do have moments where we see a more complex society and sapience but that the movie doesn’t really go further than that. The main characters are great though and the humans are absolutely not villains. I saw it more as a depiction of war in which neither side is able to communicate and the horrors that this can breed. People that say that the meteor was clearly fake and not a big attack seem like they’re reaching and just hate the humans because they heard Verhoeven say “fascism” and don’t believe in “death of the author”… except for when it comes to the original story of course… lol amazing movie regardless, even if it’s not great as an adaptation.

[@MCCaradon]

The bugs in Starship troopers were clearly in the wrong, despite obviously not being able to throw gigantic meteors at light speed towards earth, but the bugs in helldivers are clearly victims ... types someone clearly not an arthropod.

[@jinglejangle1533]

​​@@dumdumer892 the star ship troopers movie is like that because it's based on a book the movies director read one page of, decided he hated it, and made the whole movie as a satire of facism, the plot holes are there because a lot of shit had to be changed since the movie didn't want to add any more nuance than "humanity are a bunch of nahtzees now watch this sick fuckin gore" Edit: nvm i read the rest of your comment when i finished writing it seems you already know all of this

[@CrysResan]

It seems to me that they lack empathy. They do the same with real life criminals. The lack of empathy seems to be telling point. They have sympathy for people like them- and so only defend them. Which- if my hypothesis is correct suggests greatly that they defend monsters because they ARE monsters themselves.

[@gorgeouszan]

Ya'll have no idea what the plot of Starship Troopers was actually about do you? lol.

[@aaron6622]

Empathy just means understanding emotions and recognizing other people's emotional state. Psychopaths are capable of empathy, and they use it to prey on other people. It makes sense that demons might do the same.

[@sterlingdavis8244]

And why Lextorias identifies with them so staunchly.

[@bernieburton6520]

Empathy is Sharing the feelings of another person. Not just recognizing that the other person is feeling emotions. Sociopaths and Psychopaths don't have empathy. They can't share the feelings of someone else and don't even have the ability to actually care about anyone else. They, by definition, Only care about themselves. They feel emotions, but only for themselves and their own personal gain exclusively. The demons in Frieren are all sociopaths. The kind that take pleasure in killing those weaker than themselves. There's an entire arc about a demon attempting and failing to understand and feel empathy for others including humans. He's literally incapable of it. He does extremely horrible things to study humans and their behavior and emotions. Just like a Nazi scientist who does horrible experiments on humans.

[@bernieburton6520]

Empathy is Sharing emotions with another person. Sociopaths and Psychopaths don't have the capacity to emphasize with anyone else. They can only feel for themselves and their own personal benefits. To be empathetic you have to see someone feeling some way and literally feel with them. If they are in emotional pain, for example, you are being empathetic if you also start feeling emotional pain as well. Or if someone is feeling joy, if their joy makes you feel joyous as well. That's SHARING their emotions. Sociopaths and Psychopaths simply can't do that. They see someone suffering and feel absolutely nothing for that other person. Sociopaths and Psychopaths ONLY think about how everyone else can benefit themselves. They might even take pleasure in causing others to suffer.

[@AsogiMK]

@@bernieburton6520 That's a logical contradacition, if you can't sense someone's emotional state, then it's impossible to take advantage of someone's emotional state simply because you are clueless about how that person feels.

[@bernieburton6520]

@AsogiMK you can recognize someone's emotional state and not be able to actually CARE about their emotional state. Empathy is both understanding and sharing that state out of care, concern and compassion.

[@beast7842]

All I'm saying is that if he were in the world of Frieren, he dies to a demon every time.

[@vla1ne]

solitar would have a field day with him.

[@ijbsee4561]

This is becoming very common and concerning because people keep trying to see villains as good. It's ok to sympathize with a villain if that villain has a tragic backstory that made them that way but the moment you start defending their actions of evil and malice then there is a problem. And it's that exact problem that leads people to start defending truly despicable acts of villains as justice.

[@Abyss3223]

Maybe he is roleplaying as a Demon himself?

[@KopperNeoman]

Impressive stick to the bit if true, but I don't think he'd be capable of such kayfabe.

[@Blueguy404]

This guy could cosplay as a mancubus from doom.

[@lambofields1913]

What, like the Mancubus from Doom?

[@crustybomb115]

@@lambofields1913 i forgot that was their name lmao. also probably...

[@hariman7727]

He might be possessed.

[@pulgas]

sooo Griffith-posting applies here? XD

[@RitsuCurisu]

Something something evil is relative give me my updoot, whore.

[@Zenith121691]

Warcrimes don't apply to beautiful creatures.

[@diazkohen2149]

The "Thanos, Madara, Griffith did nothing wrong" is everywhere...I don't know why some people worship villain

[@RitsuCurisu]

@@diazkohen2149 Smoothbrain spiteful mutants pretending to be intelligent, I think.

[@starburst98]

A lot of people are facetious about them doing "nothing wrong" nd just think they are cool.

[@Kold-Kanadian]

bro is got roasted on twitter and now he's getting roasted on youtube

[@Tyler_18_]

I think he deleted his acc and ran to Bluesky lmfao

[@achmedycreedo]

@@Tyler_18_ classic

[@guardiansoulblade2673]

Even the person with the most bare minimum of media literacy could see this dude was wrong, LOL.

[@straightjacket308]

I'll never understand why some people need grey areas in other people's stories. Why can't the Sith just be evil? Why can't the Orc just be evil? Why can't evil just be evil anymore? For me it can ruin a character. Looking at you Venom: Let There Be Carnage!!!

[@echiko4932]

It comes from the idea that evil is a result of one's environment and can be redeemed, which _is_ true for most real humans. But there are also real humans who never get a chance to even consider redemption, and their stories need to be told too.

[@formdusktilldeath]

Demons are sentient in the same way ChatGPT is

[@AuthoritativeNewsNetwork]

Tales of Grey morality (GoT is a main offender) have really destroyed a generation.

[@Knuckles2761]

All this is the fruit of an idea called "deconstruction".

[@sterlingdavis8244]

What's even more ironic is Lextorias is the type of person to talk down to and disregard OTHERS' takes as just them being "media illiterate".

[@crustybomb115]

they havent destroyed a generation... but what they did do is show whos moral compass doesnt exist as well as point out people who are practically illiterate(you can read stuff but dont have the capacity to understand the meanings) when it comes to critical thinking skills.

[@chack321]

Which is so weird given the outcome of all that grey morality. Everything goes to shit. And only when the "stupid moral people", the Starks, gain power do things get better. I know the later seasons were bad but the one scene where Jon tells off Daenarys about how honor is necessary for society/civilization to exist was one thing I really liked. The terms "low trust" and "high trust" are even used to describe nations/societies. And trust me, you want to be part of a "high trust" society.

[@MajorSmurf]

So to counter some of his points. A willingness to learn or a curiosity to understand doesn't stop a free willed creature from being evil. Understanding what a word, or what something is, or how a human reacts to a certain word or action. All of that is done to help them in the future to deceive and manipulate better in the future. It's why when we're shown the younger demon, her first idea to stop humans being suspicious of her was to kill a father and than gift another daughter to the dead daughters parents. That is because she had not yet observed enough human interaction to understand that wouldn't work compared to older demons where they are more careful or have a greater understanding of humans/prey. So as they age demons may seem kinder or morally grey creatures but they're not. They merely better understand the risks of doing something, and how better to manipulate and deceive you. Like any animal, animals learn the behaviours of their prey to better hunt them. The fact is they learn words but don't always understand their meaning or context, a father is completely foreign to them because demons do not care for one another. Yes they cooperate at times but that's like saying wolves or lions are morally grey because they cooperate with one another, no it's purely for the benefits that a pack bring. If the alpha is strong, the pack lives longer and you get to eat more. If the Alpha is weak than a younger male will kill them and take his place, the pack also than lives longer and guess what you get to eat more. Demons could be viewed and classed as highly intelligent animals, that's about it but we would still call them evil because they DO NOT need to hunt humans to survive. That's not the same as wolves and lions, they have to hunt to feed themselves. Demons seemingly have a choice and choose to do the evil thing, and never once in the story are they seen making a good moral choice purely for the benefit of human(s). They might make what seems like a good moral choice but in reality it's often neutral choice because it's a purely selfish and to deceive humans. Basically a lot of people who think demons are misunderstood would die in the world of Frieren and be eaten by demons after being unable to understand the simple concept that you can not change a monsters nature. It would be the same as trying to convince a zombie, werewolf or any predator not to eat you.

[@frostfiredirewolf8517]

At best, I'd argue a specific demon could be "tamed" much like a Tiger or Lion for a circus. With very similar risks of predation and or mauling.

[@MajorSmurf]

@@frostfiredirewolf8517 Maybe... but I wish there was a better word than taming. I understand what you're saying though.

[@frostfiredirewolf8517]

@MajorSmurf it's why I put it in quotation. It is sadly the best word I could think fit. Honestly, I think it sort of works with one of the general themes. With Tamed Sentient Being at least as uncomfortable as the concept of Evil Sentient.

[@spyro2002]

@MajorSmurf unrelated, but I recoignize you from commenting on a lot of neuro-sama clips. Hi.

[@kronos661]

Your understanding of wolf pack dynamics is based on the outdated research done in the zoos instead of the wild.

[@charlesqbanks]

"Does this guy LOOK like he's opened up a Bible?" That killed me LOL

[@somebodyrandom27]

I feel that the best way to write an "Always Chaotic Evil" species is to lean into just how alien their mindset would be. For example, Goblins in Goblin Slayer and Skaven in Warhammer Fantasy are literally incapable of peaceful cooperation, even when it leads to them having terrible standards of living. They're hardwired to always take the most self-serving actions, even if it causes them long-term losses. Frieren seems to explore this a lot, with Demons being more amoral than immoral due to their inability to understand certain emotions. Unlike the prior two examples, some Demons do genuinely try to understand emotion, but they are sabotaged by their instincts and wind up causing even greater atrocities. They're literally incapable of being "good", whether they want to or not. There's a layer of tragedy there.

[@olafgurke4699]

Based mention of best Warhammer.

[@KopperNeoman]

I wouldn't say sabotaged by their instincts so much as it's an eldritch concept to them. Frieren demons who attempt to understand morality rather than simply mimic it are basically trying to read the unabridged Necronomicon.

[@Drac0blade16]

You got to love that he completely glosses over the fact that the demon straight up lied by saying "I lost a father..." then later admits "lol, idfk what a father is", by trying to make it a "Oh, they're just curious about humanity. Why is Frieren so mean? 😢💔" moment.

[@todayontheinternet9576]

Applying 'modern day' arguments to high fantasy is always a recipe for stupidity. But apparently it's what we do now, for some reason.

[@yarayaredaze2927]

Gotta rember, these are the people talking down to you about media literacy.

[@sterlingdavis8244]

Precisely. They are contrarian pseudo-intellectuals who are smug because they believe they are the smartest person in any room at a given time.

[@johannesstephanusroos4969]

"rember?" 😂

[@HellCromeE]

Rember wen "remember" use t b a wor? Goo tims

[@catanaoni]

@@johannesstephanusroos4969 alway rember happy day

[@chack321]

@@HellCromeE I cri everytiem

[@dizzyizzy7403]

These are the kinds of people who think parrots are people because they can mimic human words.

[@Rastrelly]

Great video, 99% agreed. Two points though. 1) However IMO the idea of demons being sentient is correct. From what we know of them, they are a) self-aware b) able to formulate and analyse abstract concepts; c) they do have emotional responses; d) they are able to communicate and form mutually beneficial social hierarchies. Alltogether it is enough to deem them sentient. 2) As for morality - morality stems from sentience, as it is a purely abstract concept, and the whole concept of morality boils down to having a spectrum of what is good, and what is bad based off, yet again, abstract evaluation. It is obvious that being hungry s bad, and being warm is good, it is not a moral judgement. However, stealing is bad, and supporting charity is good - those *are* moral judgements. Frieren's demons clearly have their own moral systems, which even seemingly includes loyalty to the Demon King, like in case of Qual who decided to *avenge* his death, which would not even come to his mind weren't he loyal. It all implies that there's more to demons than meets the eye. Does any of it remove their status as definitely evil, seemingly by nature (as they are, after all, angry blobs of mana)? I do not think so.

[@hariman7727]

Demon morality is Frieren is "Survive, eat humans, gain power.". It's utterly incompatible with humanity. So yeah, evil is as evil does... and the demons are hardwired to do evil. Their endgame is either eating all humans, or ending up with human farms for "sustainability".

[@Sgt_SealCluber]

Has he learned anything from the legitimate criticism he's been getting over his video? Of course not, he ran off to Bluesky and is blaming "far right" (this is my own interpretation, not his exact words) grifters and "misinformation". "it’s always been such a failure of the internet to me that politicized grifter channels can successfully pump out dozens of videos with blatant misinformation and zero research, because it takes more time to debunk than it does to make" -- Normal Guy on Bluesky

[@meepkiwicat]

So did he get roasted on Bluesky too?

[@genericweeb7300]

Bro spent all that time yapping about having empathy for the demons, somehow completely forgetting (probably on purpose, for the sake of making a point) that psychopathy is not an exclusively fictional concept.

[@DoctorInk20]

I've seen a current trend of deconstructing demon/orc/bug-posters lately and I welcome it whole-heartedly. I actually forgot the term up 'til now, but it perfectly sums up the kind of people trying to justify the most horrifying monstrosities and their actions. Relatedly, I feel those same people are also the sorts that get hot and bothered by that scene in _Alien: Resurrection_ where Brad Dourif kisses the glass with the Xenomorph behind it. Yuck. Not every villainous fictional creature - be it a race or an individual - has to be like _Frankenstein's Monster,_ waxing lyrical about the philosophy of existence, being tragically driven into a life of evil and asking the audience "who's the real monster?". If anything, evil fantasy beings lacking in complexity is important to cathartic story-telling. It affirms the existence of *primal evil* and, when these things becomes a major threat, it becomes all the more satisfying to destroy them utterly. I think it stems from a weird sense of trying to understand and reason with incomprehensible things, like there must be some greater motivation behind what they do. Well, much like the real life monsters of the world, some times they're just in it for the sheer joy it brings them or worse.

[@sterlingdavis8244]

What's even wilder is they even defended LITERAL MALIGNANT CANCER CELLS when Cells at Work's anime came out.

[@spyro2002]

plus like for the misunderstood monster trope to work, we need actually evil ones to compare them to.

[@kuronya3582]

@@sterlingdavis8244 because of how portraid cancer cell in anime... until second season

[@DoctorInk20]

@@sterlingdavis8244 I'm not even surprised. 😂

[@DoctorInk20]

@@spyro2002 Yeah, and that's fine. Perfect example I can think is _The BFG._

[@charlettmoon2693]

The hilarity of claiming the Freiren was from Tolkein, like it was one step removed. Freiren is from Dragon Quest (Himmel is the "Yuusha", the term for the Main Character, the Hero, in Dragon Quest, While Freiren was known as the party's "Mahou Tsukai", the Magic User; the deity in Dragon Quest is always referred to as a goddess, etc.). Dragon Quest was Yuji Horii's attempt to make an easier-to-play Ultima on the Atari, which was an attempt to put Dungeons and Dragons on the computer, which was from a War Game that tried to replicate the big armies of Middle Earth. To claim that you can go straight from Tolkein into Freiren when they are at *least* four steps removed is the highest form of stupidity in literary analysis. The best you can do is look to Dragon Quest, which DOES have little moments about the redeem-ability of monsters. Dragon Quest 5, by some (including me) the best DQ ever made, has moments where you fight a human chancellor and it turned out that his evil and hatred of life *literally* transformed him into a monster. Like, a human heart can become so corrupted that you literally take on monstrous/bestial traits. On the other side, you end up meeting a Mother Mary type figure *in Hell* and find a small village of people who were *taught by this Motherly character* to be nice, and you see a small group of humans celebrating that *they were once monsters* but through their love of life have become human. Sir if you wanted to look directly to Freiren and make a case for demons, it's literally right there. However, this is a very rare instance of Dragon Quest. A lot nowadays have maybe a monster that you can train (Dragon Quest 8, 3 Remake), but there are never instances in the game where you encounter and kill an enemy that turns out "Oh wait it was actually a good guy", not unless a monster was manipulating the situation. The point is that if you want to look at morality among demons/monsters in Freiren, you need to go to what it was inspired by, AKA Dragon Quest, and Dragon Quest makes absolute NO bones about "If a single human walked out of the town they would be instantly devoured by monsters/demons, and therefore you, as the Yuusha/Hero, need to kill as many as possible to create a world where these creatures cannot hurt good, innocent people any longer."

[@sterlingdavis8244]

He is a hilariously ill-informed, yet smugly superior pseudo-intellectual talking down to everyone else because he contrarian take wasn't well-received and it bruised his bloated ego (as he literally admitted in the beginning clip of THIS video--it was made purely out of spite).

[@Buraiyan333]

I think DQ 4 also played with the idea of redeemable monsters a bit with Psaro, but even then he's already partially a human and motivated to evil by the very human emotion of grief(and the very human flaw of racism), which is something the Frieren demons explicitly lack.

[@charlettmoon2693]

@Buraiyan333 it was a little bit, but redeeming him only appeared in the remakes. He was a tragic figure, yes, and had a reason for what he did, but the OG NES game was clear that he was in the wrong and did not attempt to redeem him. What DQ4 DOES do is use the Power of Evolution to have monsters become stronger, and even humans become monsters, so there is a slight link there.

[@guardiansoulblade2673]

The only thing it has in common with Tolkien is that there are elves, that's it.

[@MrAnt-sf2sk]

Crazy how people have forgotten the concept of a villain that is straight up evil. Everybody has to have a relatable backstory now

[@MauZangetsu]

Everybody *can* have a relatable backstory but that doesn't mean you have to agree with their chosen path. I can empathize with Azula from Avatar because deep down she's just a lost girl wanting her mother's attention while I also accept she's an insane genocidal maniac, and I can empathize with Agent Smith wanting to be free from the Matrix while I'm also accepting he's a virus-like entity whose actions aim for the end of humanity. Ya feel me?

[@ashleighchance9420]

​@MauZangetsu I get you. Basically understanding something is not the same as accepting it.

[@tiredman99]

Demons: Eat human children just because. This guy: They're just misunderstood. I'm glad we finally have something where the villains aren't sympathetic, they're just the villain

[@Mecks089]

If it was anime like Inuyasha, he may of had a point I'd agree with to certain level, but not on Frieren. To be fair though, I had no idea _"Bug-Posting"_ was a thing, but I get it. I'm like that with certain Vampires lol. I'm the hopeless fucktard that will defend them. :P

[@adammisner971]

yeah but vampires are hot goth people with super speed. They're basically just augmented humans depending on the setting. Vampires are awesome. But to watch starship troopers and sympathize with the bugs is a whole different level. The brain bug tortures and stabs its probiscus through the skull of a character and sucks out his gray matter to learn what he knows to better kill other humans and bugposters sympathize with it.

[@KopperNeoman]

@@adammisner971 The classical vampires are just demons possessing human corpses. Raw, pure evil. You can't "become" one, you can be killed and have a fallen angel wear your skinsuit to prey on your loved ones. The moral ambiguity surrounding the vampire was introduced when they not only became a sapient species all their own, but one that YOU could be. Ergo, vampires not being a predator species to you necessarily, but rather a faction to join. Like how the Zerg are different from the Bugs and Demons: you can become a Zerg, like Kerrigan did.

[@KopperNeoman]

@@adammisner971 With vampires it depends on the lore. Sympathising with Carmilla is Bugposting. Sympathising with Katrina is the entire point of the game. (In fact, the definition of "monster" in Quest for Glory is "anything that shoots first and asks questions never." so a human can be a monster whilst a minotaur isn't.)

[@miyo_mizugi]

I try to be a bugposter, but they always say that wanting to have sex with Aura does not count 🙄 /s

[@crustybomb115]

@@miyo_mizugi to be fair, freiren doing something in the spirit of shinzo abe is a pretty funny idea...

[@Dovacat]

Bro saw the Frieren x Aura fanart before watching the anime then got pissed when it wasn't actually in the series

[@Reallytallsocks]

"When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles." Frank Herbert

[@SleepyGaming-ie9fb]

Him comparing Ubel and demons is also a very bad choice. Ubel exists to highlight the differences between a human psychopath and a demon. While demons have characteristics of psychopathy, they're clearly not the same as human criminals.

[@lukahumar1371]

I didn't understand the demons of Frieren as evil. Not in a moral sense at least. Evil implies malevolent intent, for which we're shown demons don't understand the concept of malevolence, or even the idea of wishing bad things to happen to someone. Demons are predators, humans are prey. Demons are not human, however close to human they may look or act. Now, demons ARE still the majority of villains, but again, it's not from a moral position. It's more of a force-of-nature villainy.

[@SuperiorPosterior]

I agree that they're not truly _malevolent_ in the way an evil human could be, but their enjoyment of the hunt falls somewhere between the animalistic "yesss, time to eat!" and the more human "mwahahaha." This is also why Lugner considered Fern a coward. Their fight _started out_ as a decent bit of entertainment because this "insignificant weakling" is putting up the struggle of her lifetime against him. But then, even as his mana reserves begin to run out, she's still running steady. If you've ever fought Sephiroth in the Coliseum in Kingdom Hearts, you might remember how he's got six health bars, but the game could only render four, so until you've depleted the bar _three times_ you don't actually see it change color, which means you have no actual indication that you're dealing damage from a piece of UI that you've been trained to use as a reference and take at face value from every other flight that came before it. Lugner is looking at Fern and freaking out because this same thing is happening. She compressed her mana to fit like twelve Limit Breaks into a single bar, so it looks like she can spam infinite OmniSlashes. That's why he's calling her a coward. If he knew she could throw 12 Limit Breaks at him every second before the fight started, he'd have left the town and abandoned Aura's attempt just to save his own skin. Which, again, is a completely animalistic and "selfish" action.

[@donset3627]

demons: "in my morality killing people is good" Demonposter: "a solid argument i claim thee morally good and i bestoweth upon thee the sympathy you deserve"

[@lilflax0396]

30:59 While it is true that I've seen racist fans of frieren say that frieren has pro racism messaging, they too don't understand frieren. Properly understanding frieren comes from understanding that the demons are villains right out of a fairy tale and aren't meant to be viewed as people.

[@bluelanternguardianangel8038]

Man I wonder if he made a video defending the goblins from Goblin Slayer The man should apply for the Olympics for all of leaps of logic he does. He can't the difference between a simile and a metaphor. And this man is allowed to drive wth lol

[@worldeater2414]

The only defense I think you can give the Daemons of Frieren is that they inherently don't understand what "evil" is because they do not have the same morals as humans. Because they aren't humans, they're a mix of changling and Dolphins. A hyper intelligent but still bestial race, and thus are incapable of evils in the same way a bear or dog might be incapable of evil. A bear doesn't murder something, it kills and devours something. A daemon doesn't murder someone, it just kills and absorbs humans.

[@gilgameshlfx7006]

Kinda obvious isn't it? The bloke never watch Frieren. He probably watching Frieren from reels or something. He's one of those that hates everything that is popular.

[@smugwendigo5123]

Now hold on there, i hate everything thats popular,im a certified hipster, but at least i understand the concept of immoral and unredemable characters.

[@remnock]

This is spoilers from later in the manga but.... There is a demon who shows up who questions the inherent evilness of demons and why they are incapable of coexisting with humans. He genuinely tries to live with and coexist with humans. And the story doesn't take lazy copouts like "humans didnt accept him" or "he was actually just pretending, lol he was evil all along" no it actually has a few twists I didnt see coming and was just genuinely fascinating. And it did it in a way that didnt diminish the demons' legitimate threats or contradict things the story had already established about them and their nature

[@greatclubsandwich5612]

Sounds good. But that demon would be the exception. And logically exceptions don't disprove the law. Albinism doesn't disprove that cheetahs are yellow with spots. But I bet this guy would have you believe that every demon was like this if only humans weren't so mean.

[@remnock]

@greatclubsandwich5612 agreed, this demon was one of, I think maybe 2 (1 only mentioned in passing so far, not actually seen), anomalies in the story, to the point that another demon questions him with a, "why are you bothering?". My point was more that when the story does address this kind of thing, it does it with far, FAR more thought than your average bug-poster

[@greatclubsandwich5612]

@remnock What makes me laugh is this guy opens his video describing Frieren as a show as "Just an episodic road trip mainly consisting of fighting monsters broken up by short sections of talking..." Or something along that nature... I genuinely feel like we didn't watch the same show.

[@petermuller9480]

@@greatclubsandwich5612 And I genuinely feel like you fanboys didn't actually read the manga. The story essentially is just a road trip, interrupted by the occasional "batlle arc". What else would it be? It's not an epic quest; it's not an exploration of what happens "after the adventure".

[@MoreEvilThanYahweh]

@@greatclubsandwich5612 Reminds me of the hermaphrodite argument being used as some kind of actual "take that" card used by certain people over a different issue.

[@Bridgetrollhaspizza]

I don't think I'll ever understand people who think that evil characters can never be truly evil by choice. I enjoy stories of good vs evil, and then you have people like this who unironically defend evil

[@ItsChoccyMilk]

This sucks to see as someone who has enjoyed some of Lex's other videos, although I don't agree with his take on this subject at all. He says himself he made the video out of frustration and as a result he's made himself a bigger target for ridicule. Can't blame people for throwing some shade back after saying people who disagree with him must be Nazis though. My reaction to seeing this video in my sub box was "oh no" lol. Good arguments though Dannphan, I had a lot of the same ones when originally watching his video. I don't think creatures being intelligent and having enough of an understanding to mimic emotions means they inherently aren't evil. Even if you do think the demons aren't inherently evil I think asking the other races to try and convince them to change their ways given the threat they pose is ridiculous ask from a practical standpoint. I think people discussing the topic is interesting I just wish the discussion hadn't started on such a bitter note from Lex's side because he's only made the situation worse for himself. I am a fan of your stuff and enjoyed the video.

[@christophersmith8848]

He brought up Ubel and was so perilously close to getting it, only to somehow reach a completely backwards conclusion about the point

[@jimtalks_4_ever297]

Dude that is not how it works, you can not go, "Well, the demons in Demon Slayer have feeling and a sad back story, so that means that all the demons in Frieren must have feelings too." You can not use one work of fiction to justify your options in another work of fiction. They are completely sperate bodies of work, with their own world building, and set of rules. Now it would be okay to say compare the two and say, "it is interesting to see how in Demon Slayer, demons are created and are evil because of X, Y, and Z. Were as in Frieren demons are portraited as irredeemable evil, much like classic fairytales, etc, etc."

[@MajorSmurf]

Oh people so badly misunderstand Tolkien orcs. Tolkien said either in one of his letters or an interview that ORCS are 100% evil but redeemable. You might be thinking wait AHA! I got you that's a contradiction! You would be mistaken as I have yet to provide full context. This is not the same thing, Tolkien very much stated that orcs can be redeemed but only after their death as it requires their sins and souls (if they have one) to be cleansed and purified. That's very different to an evil creature being morally grey in life and able to make a choice. They can not make a good moral choice, even without Sauron or Morgoth around. They still ate people, and kidnapped people and so on. Basically the point is that they're so badly corrupted that only the one god in LOTR can save them, a very Tolkien and religious belief. Sins can be forgiven but not by man but a higher power. So yes in a sense of all Tolkien's creatures/characters are redeemable but that does mean it applies to them while living.

[@appleseed8282]

Finally; someone who'll actually call the guy on his nonsense down here. My scroll bar is the size of a rice grain trying to find someone with a point/watched the videos in this comment section.

[@BlueVenom9]

Dude is full of it, irredeemable and beyond wrong

[@arminsoti5182]

The demons would fool this guy without even trying.

[@phillbrown292]

This guy gave a classic Griffithposting logic: devil's advocate made literal for the sake of the troll.

[@NmN-t6q]

This dude probably thinks the imperium is the most evil faction in 40k