Dark Lords: Dark Souls Lore - Manus & The Furtive Pygmy

[@DarkTitan9174]

Tiny fragments... of the Dark Soul... Dark Souls. We did it boys.

[@Danzilla1996]

Roll credits!

[@peteharris2607]

Praise the sun!

[@spudthepug]

Hail Satan!

[@cluelesspotato8945]

That’s one hell of a breakthrough

[@mmmpasta1400]

Ringed City says otherwise...

[@bladeknightmaster1]

Manus is the good guy, he just wants his pendant.

[@Corynthius]

Knight Blade would Manus chill if he did get his pendant back

[@xtitan1910]

@@Corynthius probably not, since he wa molested by the priests of oolacile

[@lubesoggytoes7352]

He looks like a guy that's flipping out because it's drak and he can't find his car keys

[@HumanoidCableDreads]

@CJKnightmare There is no proof he was tortured by Oolacile or that the pendant kept him sane. This video is entirely founded on baseless conjecture instead of focusing on what the lore actual says, that the priests of Oolacile were driven mad by the abyss, which didn't exist before they upturned Manus' grave.

[@UltmateKngofNothngthest]

No he may be the victim of oolacile but Hes not the good guy. He's dangerous to everyone because of his madness and power. In other words he's too dangerous to be left alive

[@connorcalder8191]

Manus is actually really tragic, see that is what I love about dark souls it makes you question yourself and whether fighting these "monsters" is actually the right thing, even someone who is the father of darkness essentially isn't that bad, he was turned by the actions of others

[@elcawyo9629]

And Dark Souls 3 even makes that the entire point of the game

[@theextinctsurgeon310]

if manus was the furtive pygmy and he was set to bring about the age of dark and the primordial serpents want the age of dark. then that would explain why they persuaded the people of oolacile to release the beast

[@SpookGod]

That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Why would Kaathe (or a serpent with similar motives) manipulate them into awakening Manus? I doubt he would waste his time unless it benefited his motivations for the Age of Dark. Which is sorta what I think he was trying to do- he wanted to start the Age of Dark, even while the Age of Fire was going on. Not sure how he'd overcome that, but whatever the case, it didn't go as planned, because the Furtive Pygmy turned into a lunatic. But I could be wrong. I'm not exactly the most knowledgable person about it. XD

[@theextinctsurgeon310]

Lord Camelslayer "And the furtive pygmy, oh so easily forgotten..." Indeed the mystery deepens... he also drops 10 humanity which is a clue too... peace the fuck out

[@RubberDucky757]

A Serpent of the abyss wanting to spread the abyss yup I indeed think he orchestrated the entire thing

[@Lordsilverhand]

i agree that the serpent tricked the people of Oolacile into waking Manus and unleashing more dark and problems for the gods.

[@mojothemigo]

In fairness, Kaath didn't necessarily want Manus to go crazy and create the beast.

[@JD-jl4yy]

I just realized Dark Souls basically means humans...

[@nofilter3810]

JD Miyazaki’s cynical genius

[@cluelesspotato8945]

Africa?

[@JD-jl4yy]

@@cluelesspotato8945 ??

[@nayyarrashid4661]

Exactly my thoughts as I finished the video...

[@nayyarrashid4661]

@@JD-jl4yy Racism what else... Africa, dark humans...

[@moroseandlugubrious3704]

Further proof that Manus is the Pygmy: Quelana says that the Witch of Izalith is a primeval lord, and Elizabeth and Chester say that Manus is a primeval human. MIND BLOOOOOOOOOOOOW

[@Cryosphere0K]

A lord and a human are very different things. Lords found lord souls. Humans are made from a specific lord soul.

[@caseyclark5174]

Except for the Dark Soul, which was found by the furtive pygmy, the first HUMAN, not lord. Also the fact that they're both referred to as 'primeval' does really support this and is a good find, as primeval means first or coming before all other things. So if Manus was the primeval/first human... then that pretty much confirms he's the pygmy at least in my eyes, but you can completely disagree with that if you want. The entire canon of these games is almost 100% opinion without fact.

[@Cryosphere0K]

I always took it as Manus being A primeval human. Humans existed before the first linking, and so those primeval humans would likely have been equipped with the power of dark sorcery. Also I just noticed something. Nito and Gwyn do not need a catalyst such as a talisman to cast the powers of Death and Light, for they are host to Death and Light respectively, so the other Lords must function similarly. Manus has clearly had his catalyst for some while, and casts dark sorcery with the finesse that a human sorcerer does, but if he was The Pygmy he would not need to.

[@theworstcatholic7247]

@Young Pyrate Nothing really points towards that other than people who don't want to believe he's the furtive pgymy. No being has power around other shards of their lord souls like Manus does, other than other lords like The Bed of Chaos who warped her people with it on accident, much like Manus did by just being in a few miles vicinity of them. That along with his power, his name, how others talk of (primeval human, much like primeval lord, that the lords are called.) him, it all points towards him being The original holder of the Dark Soul. It would also make sense on a gameplay standpoint considering we fought all the other three lords as well, it would only make sense that we also fight him.

[@theworstcatholic7247]

@Young Pyrate There is nothing to suggest that 'furtive pgymy' is a title given. In fact, there is evidence against with the only pgymy lords in dark souls 3. While both have pgymy in the title, they are obviously distinct. Manus is never called a Pygmy. However his control over the Dark Soul, something that could only be described to the level at or above the witch of izalith's control over Chaos, does show that he is the original. Along with the fact that Manus is a likely a play on the word Manu, which is the original human in said mythology. That's ignoring the fact they call him "Primeval Man", much like Gwyn, The Witch and Nito are dubbed "Primeval Lords". You can say nah all you like, but evidence shown in the games all point towards him being the OG.

[@TheRozza333]

Dark souls lore is so deep and interconnected that im convinced if it was a tale told hundreds or thousands of years ago, it could have become a major religion.

[@jacobhoover1654]

It's based on different mythologies mixed together so duh

[@TheLad196]

We would be praising the sun lmao

[@thomasl1061]

Servant of Chaos for life

[@DaniGerman1499]

It is a religion at this point with how obsessed people who play this game get over its lore

[@cherubin7th]

Not deep at all. It is just random stuff patched together, and very inconsistent too. Worst of all DS2 and 3 recon it too much into nonsense.

[@SquareInsider]

Schala's theme started playing. Instant sub.

[@gergelymacsai3776]

Superb vid, magnificent comments! I'm so glad to have found the channel. I agree that the Pygmy is the entity that became Manus, Father of the Abyss. We are told Manus is Primeval Man (not A or THE Primeval Man, but with zero article, which indicates he is the first human being ever), and by knowing the Pygmy is the progenitor of mankind, we can confirm that they are one and the same. Also, everyone is from the same roots, the beings that were born in the Dark from the intro. Only some of them found powerful souls, some of them less powerful ones. The ones with the Lord Souls became the Lords. Giants retained similarly powerful souls. Humans also had souls but they also had Humanity that others originally didn't. The Pygmy only had pure Humanity, the Dark Soul. He passed this on with procreation, fusing Soul and Humanity into beings we call humans. His progenitors are mankind, who stayed small because of Humanity negating the greatness of their souls (other 'races' all grew large if they possessed powerful souls, and became smaller if their soul lost power). The only thing I disagree with is the torture scheme. I know it was influenced by TerraMantis's atmospheric vid on Manus like you said, but even in that vid I felt it made no sense. What would Oolacile sorcerers gain by torturing Manus? It is clearly stated (by several NPCs) that a serpent manipulate them into awakening Manus. Did it tell them what they are supposed to dig out? Did it tell them whoever they dig up will have some power or knowledge they coveted? I'm not sure, since serpents are vague with their instructions at best, but whatever it said moved the leaders of the township to excavate. More likely, I think, they were told to dig under Oolacile for the secret Art of Lifedrain (a form of immortality) and found the ancient grave of Primordial Man. In the grave they found the buried man and a pendant that they took, thinking it is the key to unlock the secret, since it radiated some kind of elusive magical aura. I firmly believe that was what drove Manus mad, because the pendant was the last thing he clang to while in his stasis (his 'purpose' for not losing grip on his humanity). It was something that reminded him he was human while the increasingly more powerful Dark Soul threatened to overcome him. The threat was not that of Hollows, who have too little or no Humanity, but the opposite: having too much Humanity. We know how too much Humanity is bad for humans/undead, twists and mutates their insides. Very pure women can contain the mutation, but everyone else is corrupted both mentally and physically. That is what happened to Manus, but on a much larger scale, because of the potency of the Dark Soul (which is a massively powerful lump of Humanity). I also agree that Kaathe tells some of the truth (like Frampt). It also seems like Kaathe was the serpent who tricked Oolacile, because we know from him that he's always wanted to find his Dark Lord. Why did he need to trick Oolacile to get to Manus then? Because I believe Manus, after becoming a sorcerer of sorts (utilizing Dark magic) and peering into the Dark Soul learned what great threat it represented to life as we know it. He chose to go into stasis and sleep forever, rather than use his Dark Soul, even probably defying the serpents. He forsake his immortality, perhaps because he loved mankind, his children (literally and figuratively), or he loved a certain someone (because let's face it, the Broken Pendant is a love token broken in half), or both. This is why he takes Dusk, and why she comes to no harm even in the heart of the Abyss: Manus protects her because she reminds him of his beloved (maybe she is even a pure blooded descendant of his, being high nobility and all). What he failed to see was that while he slumbered for thousands of years, hiding the Dark Soul from the world, mankind populated the world, thereby creating countless Humanity, countless shards of the Dark Soul. And like many commenters pointed out, the Dark Soul does not become weaker by division, quite the contrary. By having so many shards, the original Dark Soul, one that Manus slept with also became vastly potent, gaining power from the shards. I believe this led to the fading of the flames, too, with the Dark growing in the world, blotting out Fire. The Broken Pendant kept Manus's sanity and his grip on the Dark Soul, but only barely. That is, until they unwittingly woke him up. That not only triggered the 'going wild' thing, but also called out to all shards of Humanity to unite back into a whole. That is why Undead feel compelled to journey to Lordran (and later Drangleic). That is what Gwyn discovered and why he Linked the Fire (that is, linked Humanity and the First Flame to be able to sustain the First Flame on Humanity as a fuel, making it possible for Undead to keep the flames alive and sustain an Age of Fire). Make any sense? (Also SORRY for the wall of text, I got carried away.)

[@softbread1728]

I'm very late but I would like to say that it happened this way, The Furtive Pigmy found the Dark Soul, the ancestor of all humanity. It has dark in the middle and light around as a symbol of all humans, we have dark and light in us. The Pygmy went to slumber, and praised as a lord, the forgotten Lord while the other Lorda were highly known, After being covinced by the Dark Serpent, they started torturing humans but not just physically they went inside the humanity and tortured and experimented with the dark part of it, hence the hexes, they seem like they are the inner part of the humanity, when they tortured The Pygmy, he somehow endured, something kept him human, the pendant, once they broke it, nothing could hold him, so the Dark Soul got out of control, and the black part of the Dark Souls which gave birth to all humanity, since it was pure, had more dark than imagined, and the dark inner part spread, thus creating the abyss, the dark part dominating the white, with nothing to hold it kept spreading and so on goes the story. Since Manus is out of control, maybe the pendant can be seen as the "white barrier" of the dark humanity or soul, since it was taken away and left dark without control, manus instantly grabs you when he senses the pendant for even in his madness, there is a little part of him sane, since the pendant was broken, maybe the other part was kept by manus, and that is why we still see a little light in his soul, not enough to hold the dark, but enough to keep a little bit of sanity.

[@Cryosphere0K]

I just can't imagine such a game just handing you the dark soul itself in such a vague way. Therefore, I either want there to be a blatantly named "Pygmy" dlc in the third game, or an interview with the creators that straight tells us if Manus is or is not the furtive pygmy. In either case, I hope he gets a name. Any name, it doesn't matter.

[@aurumursus4167]

If I understand it though, the dark soul doesn't exist like the other lord souls do anymore. The pygmy didn't fully use its power like the other lords did, he simply split it and shared it over and over again, and that created humanity: pieces of the dark soul. The reason (in my opinion at least) for the pygmy becoming Manus and creating the abyss instead of just another one of the bloathead monsters when his humanity went wild is that he either took a bigger piece of humanity for himself or he took, like, the center of the dark souls and used it to create more humanity? I'm not sure on that last point, but i think everything else is sound. TL;DR: The dark souls, isn't one thing like the other lord souls, it's in a bunch of pieces (humanity).

[@aurumursus4167]

And besides, if any game would just hand you something that important unceremoniously, it would be Dark Souls.

[@Cryosphere0K]

Alex Ursin To my knowledge, the size of your humanity can be altered rapidly, possibly in response to intense emotion (Pursuers and Affinity consist of "granting will to humanity." As it also says, this will you give it feels some intense feeling that causes it to "madly" hurdle after things, regardless of the outcome). So Manus could have just been a really ancient human, and from his tortures his humanity would have grown chaotically, forming a massive Abyss that spread towards and attacked everything in Oolacile, just like the maddened tortured man likely wanted to. A crazed but wrathful mind like Manus was certain to drastically increase the size of his humanity until whole areas were enveloped in his darkness. So his soul need not be the dark soul, as it is reasonable that he simply held a fragment that grew larger using his erratic emotions as fuel. Until the developers tell us if one side is right or wrong, as they did with Solaire and the nameless king in ds3, I do not feel certain that Manus is the Furtive Pygmy himself.

[@victorpopov3809]

Jael Andres so who is the dark serpent then ? was it there even before the pygmy or what is the lore behind it ? like we know that dark serpent did stuff in new londo, but why then? is the dark serpent helper of the pygmy or some other lord or yet another powerfull entity. there are no videos on that regard

[@TheSimplyJJP]

Wait, so if the humans did not discover his burial site and didn't fuck with him. Would the world not be consumed by dark?

[@DaveControlLive]

It's hard to say... I mean, the Abyss ends up spreading from New Londo as well. But, I'm not entirely sure. Either way, it was a stupid move.

[@godofch33s35]

It probably would have anyways because remember, "Soon the flames will fade, and only dark will remain". Not fucking with him may have slowed down the spread of dark, but if they didn't, Artorias would still be alive (maybe), Olaciale would remain intact, and the chosen undead would not have access to badass sorcery (AKA: Dark Magic)

[@Jarrod0067]

DaveControlLive Don't forget the Abyss in New Londo is in the present, while Oolacile is in the past where Darkroot Garden now is This implies that even though Manus was defeated in the previous timeline, the dark/abyss has a mind of its own. Killing him does not affect the 4 Kings, who were corrupted by an insatiable thirst for humanity, caused by the abyss. In a way, the dark soul is like Pandora's box: once released, the world would be doomed

[@sirpepeofhousekek6741]

I think that Manus is the Furtive Pymgy because it ties the first game together. If you only consider Dark Souls 1 and its DLC as one story without the sequels, then Manus being the Pygmy fits the last piece of the puzzle perfectly.

[@Marinanor]

Poor Manus.

[@theapexsurvivor9538]

I still reckon that Manus is just the first of Kaathes dark lords. Likely put to death by Gwyn and resurrected by Kaathe as soon as possible after he was sure Gwyn was out of the picture. His soul is on par with that of Artorias, so that'd be about right for someone who Kaathe had been grooming after he'd lost control of his humanity.

[@fernandosilva1730]

I have always wondered where the furtive pigmy was when playing the base game, I even went though the DLC and never made the connection, just now realized that The Souls of Manus looks like a distorted Humanity because of your video, just amazing.

[@DireWolfSif12349]

Awesome video I'm glad someone finally addressed the chained prisoner guy, like who was he or what happened to him. Now it makes it a little cooler seeing it from this perspective. Great Video Dave....little more then 10 days now until DK2!!!

[@DaveControlLive]

Thanks! A lot of the chained prisoner guy's story clicked with me as I was making this video. Also... I don't know if I can contain myself... I really, seriously cannot wait!

[@TheTrueWolfboy]

DaveControlLive Gotta point out... Viscous, not Vicious. Viscous means like... well, my brain is burnt out right now, but viscosity means resistance to flow... so resistant to flow.

[@sxar_0660]

Sir Nicholas D I enjoyed dark souls 2

[@theanarchistcook]

Anybody ever notice that the Twin Humanities item seems to be one Humanity in the process of splitting into two? I think that's what's special about the Dark Soul, it's able to divide and spread forever without diminishing its power.

[@zeekawesomecus917]

You deserve more subscribers, the information and explanations in your videos shows you put a lot of time and effort into what you do. Keep up the good work! :D

[@Richie_Godsil]

OH SNAP! I've always kind of imagined that Manus wasn't the furtive pygmy but was relatively close to him, only a couple generations away maybe. So Manus would've had a relatively large portion of the original dark soul but not the soul in its entirety. The pygmies were later corralled and made to worship Gwyn and his pantheon while the first generations of humans (the primordial humans) slipped into obscurity and were forgotten. Generations later Manus was found, resurrected, and branded with the dark sign so the sorcerers could have their way with him and you know the rest... Always great content, man! I can't wait to see your DS2 series!

[@DaveControlLive]

You actually could be right about that... hold onto that thought!

[@Richie_Godsil]

DaveControlLive I wonder too, we think of the Souls of Light and Life losing their power and diminishing their respective dominions, isn't it fair to say that even the souls of the dark and of death will also wane? Without disparity, one cannot have such extremes. Is the world trying to bring back the formless balance of the age of ancients that was once ruled by the everlasting dragons?

[@DaveControlLive]

Richie Godsil I've thought on that as well. Because when you really look at the Undead, in a lot of ways, they are very similar to the Dragons. While they're not these elemental creatures, they are essentially immortal. So, you go from a land of things that exist, to this elementally balanced time, and then are coming back full circle to this land where things just exist.

[@Petter1900]

I believe that Manus was the insane mage referred to in the Dark Orb spell, suggested by the fact that he wields a catalyst and, and in his attempt to harvest the power of humanity spawned the abyss.

[@Minecraftxpo]

the only other being able to affect time was gwyn who created the sun which effects the flow of time, so manus making a portal beyond time would be a power equal to what gwyn would hold. A lord soul

[@lowqanimation]

Cant believe its a 7 year old video....DAMN!! Dark soul really connects everything no matter how much time passes

[@Cryosphere0K]

My personal theory is that before the first linking, humans were like gods, but smaller and using dark sorcery. Somehow, before or after the first linking and the undead curse, the gods made humans forget their former power and buried those ancient humans who could have reminded them. If that is right, then that could mean that Manus is just that, a primeval human who remembers the power within them, driven mad from his imprisonment and corrupting the surrounding land. This seems interesting to me that his search for the pendant mirrors Laurence, in that he has become a mad beast, but has enough awareness to actively seek out something that he's lost possibly to fix his uncontrollable state. Also I noticed that despite being a maddened corruption, he retains enough of his former "humanity" to both feel emotion and focus that emotion through pursuers using a staff instead of throwing it around like the inexperienced Artorias did, which must mean that he is well versed in dark sorcery and mastered the art as well. On an unrelated note, what causes 6:20 cutscene to play?

[@brycelemieux8013]

Actually, I've always thought that the character you're playing as could be the furtive pygmy. The most humanoid of all the fire keeper souls, forgotten by the other lords of the flame/bequeathed, and looks just like a Hollow so you'd be sentenced to eternity in the Undead Assylum, as people have forgotten who you are. Not much else to go off of than that, but I just can't get the thought of that out of my head

[@Runie549]

Wasn't sure what to think about this theory... until recently when I finally got around to playing through the DLC. That was all the convincing I needed: Manus IS the Furtive Pygmy. The way they kept referring to him as the "primeval man," the fact that as you descend the abyss you start encountering literal dark souls as enemies (implying this is where humanity, of ALL kinds, originates in the Dark Souls' universe), and even his location... a deep abyss where fire has faded and all that remains is cold and dark. It could very well be the same location the Pygmy is shown in the opening FMV to the game, just with the fire faded away. I can't emphasize enough the feeling I got in the Chasm of the Abyss though... this feeling that "this is where humanity originates from." Literal dark souls pursuing you as enemies, the best drop rates in the entire game for farming humanity, tons of humanity items just laying around everywhere and in vastly greater quantities than anywhere else, etc. What else could possibly be the source but the Dark Soul, and the Furtive Pygmy who found it? And what do we find there? Manus.

[@stalnakerz]

Great videos, really enjoying the Bloodborne so figured I'd check out some of your others and have to say you're quickly becoming my favorite. Love the pace, and especially the tips and lore. One thought on Manus, adding an S typically indicates plurality. Possibly when they broke his amulet ( or some other event), it fractured his soul. Giving him the plural name and allowing humans to each have a small fragment of the whole.

[@rafaqa]

Seeing this video and comparing this lore with what little we know of the dark souls 2 lore...makes me very anxious about your future dark souls 2 lore videos and maybe the links between the two stories. =D

[@TheTanmoy1990]

Always thought the names sounded weirdly inspired.As an Indian,and Bengali at that,i'd like to provide some additional bit of information --- Manus("Manush",pronounced "Maa-noo-sh") in Bengali translates to "Human" or "Descendant of Manu".Also,the Hindi word "Manushyata" translates to "Humanity",an aspect of Manu,the progenitor of Man.Interesting to note that aspect here kinda' refers to the soul of Manu being propagated through his progeny,much like the Soul of Manus being a primeval and possibly primary source of Humanity.

[@STiROCKET06]

That was an incredible video, Dave. Absolutely great presentation and well thought out conclusions. Definitely one of your best lore videos yet. Keep up the great work. I can't wait to see what you come up with when Dark Souls II comes out!

[@DaveControlLive]

Thank you so much! I'm really looking forward to making videos for Dark Souls II. We're so close!

[@falx94]

I've been a fan of TerraMantis for a while and he turned me on to this channel. These lore videos are glorious, I'm looking forward to going through all the Dark Souls II videos. Great work!

[@NosajDurmit]

There is also the connection between Manus' toothed hand and the dark hand used by the dark wraiths of New London. The dark hand is said to mimic the power of the dark lord and gives mention to a group simply referred to as "ancients" that excelled at the power of life drain. In one of those item descriptions Manus is referred to as "ancient Manus". The teeth on his hand could symbolize an insatiable hunger much like the 4 king's desire for humanity. However Manu's doesn't seem to ever attempt to reap your humanity but rather just desires his pendant. I don't think they tortured Manus, they probably snatched his pendant believing it contained some sort of power. I don't think the pendant had any power at all, I think its simply a symbol of Manus' human nature. To find meaning in something where there isn't any is human, something alluded to in the description of the gift pendant given to the player. I also find the description of persuers interesting, it says it grants a fleeting will to humanity. Did the humanity not have a will before this intervention? Is this part of the power of the dark soul. Manu's may not be the pygmy, he may be one of the aforementioned ancients in the dark hand description. There is a covenant in ds2 called ancient covenant but I think it might be about dragons.

[@DaveControlLive]

You're right - Manus could possibly not be the Pygmy. I do find the resemblance to the dark hand interesting. I also agree the pendant doesn't have any power at all. The reason I think Manus was likely tortured, however, is he was awoken in the first place, and we've seen Oolacile seems to have been torturing prisoners in their dungeon. I think Pursuers was the dark magic Manus held, that the sorcerers were trying to discover. But, hey, it's all speculation, so you could be right. I suppose we'll see if DaS2 shines any light on... this... darkness. (Metaphor... I had to make it).

[@phantomoverlord9237]

I believe manus was tortured indeed. The director of dark souls 1 is a fan of berserk manga/anime series, and there is full of references of berserk characters. I believe manus is one of them. There is a character named griffith who is locked away and tortured and when his mind broke he became a powerful demon unleashing his wrath to everyone close to him. And he had a pendant which even he didn't knew at first for what it did, but in fact it was the key to open the abyss. Sounds familiar?

[@QpRogne]

wow this really blew my mind, I have had some notion about manus and what he resembled but when you stated out all the evidence and the passion in your voice while doing so. good stuff. liked and sub

[@XoRandomGuyoX]

I do think that Manus is the Furtive Pygmy; in part for many of the reasons you mention here. It also makes a lot of sense given that the DLC content was stuff that Miyazaki had wanted in the game all along. I.e. other than a rider on the boars, most of the stuff seen in the artbook that released with Dark Souls pre-orders is found in the DLC; and the Oolacile connection was already there with the Enchanted Ember in Darkroot along with the Mushroom People and the ruined castle in the background. Manus wouldn't be a new infusion into the game without thought given to who he is, and was; and he certainly seemed important given his ritualistic burial ground. The fact that his humanity goes wild and creates the Abyss isn't very different from the Witch of Izalith creating the Bed of Chaos upon losing control of her Lord Soul. That kind of power is only shown to come from a Lord Soul, and Manus being the Pygmy completes the circuit of the player conquering all the old Lords to either Link the Flame or be crowned as the returning Dark Lord.

[@raulvito6246]

Mmm I had not thought of that, that Manus himself created the abyss, so we would have the fall of Oolacile to be before the flooding of New Londo. We know the Four Kings inhabit the Abyss, so that make sense. We dont know how many years have passed from the Fall of Oolcile to the start of Dark Souls, but for that sort of deterioration be are guessing...300? We know the Bed of Chaos was 1000 before Dark Souls, and Salaman started spreading Pyromancy 300 years before the start of the game and it seems we can safely place after the Bed of Chaos

[@DaveControlLive]

The similarities of the Bed of Chaos and spreading Abyss were one thing that really lead me to think that Manus held the Dark Soul. Also, what you'd aforementioned about the chosen undead meeting all of the former lords. (Even though, I actually enjoyed the mystery of never meeting the pygmy). I suppose we'll see if anything in DaS2 changes that notion!

[@XoRandomGuyoX]

DaveControlLive I can't remember at the moment where it was that I heard this, but someone was saying that Pygmy was going to be directly referenced in Dark Souls 2. If that is true... Well, I hope they don't forget about Manus if that becomes the case. He seems really prominent to just suddenly write off.

[@Navy735]

XoRandomGuyoX the source of the name manus is the father of man suggesting that manus created man

[@HumanoidCableDreads]

Whelp, Dark Souls 3 confirmed Manus was a Pygmy King from the Ringed City.

[@ThatGunslinger]

Great video as always. Hopefully DaS2 will expand on the relationship between the dark and Humanity. Seems like it will.

[@43DemonHunter]

So I basically just found your channel through SunlightBlade on twitter liking the video of you interviewing Vaati and I decided to give your channel a look. I'm glad I did. Good information man, I'm subscribed and can't wait to hear and compare/contrast what I think and what others think.

[@DaveControlLive]

Thank you! I appreciate you checking out the rest of my content. :)

[@DmasterHslam]

Great video Dave! I am not really one to start looking into lore myself but that is also cause I started playing Dark Souls less then a year ago where there were all these great lore videos. Can't wait for Dark Souls 2 and to find the hidden lore with everybody else this time instead of being late for the party.

[@DaveControlLive]

It's definitely a fun puzzle to solve! People are still debating over everything - and there's always the possibility I'm off on various speculations, so... join in! :D

[@hariimakenji3098]

You know, something that has always bothered me in regards to Kaathe's speech about the Pygmy is the past tense. "The flames DID fade and only Dark remained." And even in the Dark Lord ending Kaathe mentions that the Dark lord is returning. I wonder then if the first Dark Lord Kaathe refers to is Manus? He seems to infer that the Pygmy was the first Dark Lord and began the age of man... So, if Manus is the Pygmy, was the suppose age of man and rise of the Dark Lord before or after Manus was created?

[@lazerleon0100]

I think that, going along with certain themes throughout the game, Manus being the Furtive Pygmy would make sense. Throughout the game, I always was struck with a distinct message. It's like, all the lore, story, bosses, enemies all contribute to the idea that the Gods are not so omnipotent. The Giants and Lords were considered gods, Gwyn is still worshiped, yet look at them now. Looking at how the Furtive Pygmy is arguably a deity, his descent into depravity and madness would totally fit with the rest of the theme. The Deities have fallen when they were thought to have been infallible.

[@sleepingdeadman1]

It is a *viscous* lukewarm lump of gentle humanity, not *vicious*. Viscous as in a thick fluid that flows slowly.

[@good8619]

A beast of their own creation, so to say. Honestly, there should be a special interaction, if you give Manus his Pendant back, just like the one between Father Gascoigne/The Toy Box.

[@Conthedragonman]

I think you make very good points and a good argument that Manus is the Furtive Pygmy. Here is my speculation: We know the furtive pygmy splits his soul to create humanity. I believe that Manus is from a split that is very early, if not the first split, that never continued to fragment and multiply like the rest of the pieces of the dark soul. This could explain his enormous power, but not quite enough power to completely envelope the age of fire by himself. It's also worth noting that the series likes to use the same key words when indirectly referring to a given character. But with the Furtive Pygmy the term "Progenitor" is used where as Manus is described as "Primeval." If we examine these two words the Furtive Pygmy is seen as the origin, whereas Manus is described as the first of something. It's a minute detail, but it does give rise to questions. The Pygmy is never described as a human to us, but they make a point of telling us that Manus is one. Perhaps he was the first human, or half of the first split of the furtive pygmy into humanity. Given the very consistent descriptive language throughout the game if Manus was the Furtive Pygmy I feel they would have referred to him as the Progenitor of man instead of Primeval man. Again, this is just speculation and maybe I missed something, or am not connecting the dots correctly.

[@lightningandodinify]

Or they intentionally used primeval rather than progenitor to keep us guessing. I personally don't want manus to be the furtive pygmy. Considering the name of the game, I hope they'll give more development for the pygmy.

[@Conthedragonman]

They hinted in dark souls 3 they talk about the abyss which presumably leads to more info about the furtive pygmy

[@lightningandodinify]

I didn't know that. Thanks. Now I'm even more excited!

[@xBINARYGODx]

Caius Nair in case you have not already, check out the Dark Souls 3 playlist, Dave's reaction to the behind closed doors and the interview are fab info. Really this will be the sequel we all wanted! yeee-haaaaaaaaaaaa!

[@Balmung35]

The giant toothed hand of Manus could represent his hunger to retrieve his precious broken pendant.

[@ironstar183]

love that you used music from chrono trigger, loving your series!

[@TheBlackgi0]

Schala´s theme gave the beginning a damn fine boost of awesomeness

[@Ocelot93]

Great video, and you're king in placing suitable music in the exact moments. Can't wait to see the rest of the videos. This is why Dark Souls is so great and relevant even now. The unique magical and dark/misterious atmosphere emanating from it takes the player beyond the simple video game realm. Don't know how to put it another way, sorry. Let's see if the third (and final?) entry is worthy of its grandfather's name.

[@MultiBrendonn]

Awesome vid bro!

[@sincord8912]

Good choice using schalas theme while talking about the land of magics at the beginning there

[@aaronkelly1067]

Loving the Chrono Trigger music, awesome sound track.

[@DaveControlLive]

Thanks, glad you liked the choice! I actually almost used more of it, and had to restrain myself deciding I should use more Souls music.

[@siricat3231]

My thoughts at the end of this video~ "Good fucking job, Oolacile, way to screw things up."

[@richardv6930]

Siri Cat 2 things we get from oolacile: 1.Manus 2.Mimics. So yeah, fuck those assholes

[@Corynthius]

Oolacile dude woke up one day and decided to be a cancer on the world. Fuck them all

[@chad264]

People of oolacile:- Torture primeval man Primeval man :- Become father of abyss and corrupts the city People of oolacile:- *Surprised pikachu face*

[@Gensolink]

It's interesting to see that even in a the brink of madness Manus could still have some sort of feelings for other beings (Dusk in this case), maybe he snatched her because she looks like someone that was close to him/he loved ? And Dusk didn't suffer from any after effect even though she stayed in the Abyss.

[@MrShadowthrone]

Great video - I would just like to add that the Furtive pygmy discovered the soul with which they all came, - the one that wasnt in the flame, the one from which even the flame "came from (a misnomer)" - He discovered himself where the others had abandon it, falling into the cycle. The lost thing that everyone is looking for is they themselves - the light, blinding them from seeing their own selves, causing a destruction by not seeing the true nature of opposites, which is the entire omission of "opposites" (another misnomer) - the desire to rekindle the flame drove the natural process of nature / the abyss mad. The power comes not from the "darksoul itself" but from "the first man" in its unfractured nature

[@lucianonicolasgarcia7311]

Great collection of videos. I liked the obscure history while playing the game (a kind of shattered and conflicting memories, suggesting the state of chaos of that world and actual functioning of memories in our societies). You try to connect all dots, and bring "light" to the story, which leads to a kind of Genesis, a myth about the beggining of the world and humankind, but also the fall of gods and with it the rise of flawed and split humans, who can be both "light" and "dark". Nice work showing the smart and ambitious lore of this fantastic game. Now I' go for the New game ++!

[@Atlantiquasa]

Could we also say where in this intro, that the Furtive Pigmy is first introduced, that THAT is actually where you fight Manus?

[@TheStPatch]

Best lore series I've seen! Thank you!

[@sansenoy]

at 8:24, its viscous, not vicious, couldn't help myself... great vid as always

[@ericfrost7517]

It makes sense that Manus is the furtive Pygmy As you fight and destroy the 3 other lords Manus makes all 4 Makes sense from a all around story purpose

[@hectorbeck4350]

Manus has my favourite lore

[@adamnajami4902]

Manus is my favourite boss ngl

[@VacivityLove]

god this is why i fucking love DS, the lore is just golden! it's so damn beautiful!

[@abrahamsmiley6766]

ahh, the good old days of the guessing game. this was great

[@samjeffery1068]

I believe that Manus is the Pygmy because from his soul description we know that it is basically a lump of humanity. From the description of a humanity sprite we can infer that humanity and souls are not one and the same. So if Manus' soul and his humanity are not distinct it could only mean that his soul is the dark soul or at least a major chunk of it.

[@DjDannyD88]

Here is an interesting thought, what if it's not kath(not sure I spelled it right) but frampt. And after he realized his mistake decided to side with gwyn in continuing the Age of Fire.

[@Erraddo]

I think he could be a primeval man, one of the first ones receiving a shard of humanity, therefore a bigger one (it still had to be split too many times). It is very powerful, but i don't think it's THE dark soul, as acquiring that should make you quite more powerful than Manus' soul makes you. This also explains why he is so important, but we can't know if he is A or THE primeval man, so banana.

[@SilkEclipse]

8:24... Viscous (as in viscosity), not Vicious...

[@jacobmoren94]

Love the video. I've been watching different KZbinrs explaining the ds lore. I played ds3 and became hooked on the story. From software makers true art 👌

[@DeepFriedOddish]

If the Abyss is the result of the Dark Soul's power gone rampant, and the Bed of Chaos is thanks to the Witch of Izalith's Life Soul, what if this were to happen to Gwyn's Light Soul or Nito's Death Soul? *starts devising theories*

[@sabatonbloodysabaton]

One thing that still puzzles me though is how the pendant ended up in the archives in the first place. It's obvious Seath was involved in some way considering that dusk was trapped in a crystal golem and that the pendant could be found by killing a crystal golem in the archives. But what is the motivation for getting the pendant? How was it obtained? Why is the golem holding the pendant non-aggressive? Especially considering how aggressive golems usually are. I think I'll dig deeper into this but I just wondered if anyone here have any speculations.

[@auniquehandle]

i love you for putting sub in this

[@mitchellhorton9382]

Super late, but some conjecture. Isn't it also possible that Manus is one of the original humans created by the Pygmy? So he had a larger than normal share of Dark Power.

[@BossDrSample]

I can't comprehend how dark souls could get better.

[@peculeo]

taking in considerstion artorias's cut dialoge: "surely thine kind are more than pure darkness" it's safe to say that humans come from the dark flame

[@thuj0ker227]

The question that's spinning in my head is, is the dark soul stronger Than Gwyns soul?

[@shirogami4224]

I think so, gwyn totally loses his shit when it comes to the dark souls and the age of darkness he pretty much contained all the humans which we can see in the ds3. It's like the rock, paper, scissors rock being the gods, paper being the humans and scissors being the dragons. God's defeated the dragons, humans are the only one who can defeat the gods cos their affinity to dark and the dragons can easily defeat the humans cos the dark wouldn't affect them.

[@ronfoster6963]

I don't think it's more powerful. It seems incredibly weaker, but Gwyn's soul burns out. The dark soul keeps spreading and procreating for all time. Gwyn's age of fire is supposed to end with its eventual burning out; however, we can also assume the age of dark is destined to eventually be replaced too.

[@carlosalejandrodelgadovare8798]

@@ronfoster6963 gwyns soul Is powerful in the age of fire, the age of gods. And so the dark soul Is More powerful in the age of dark, the age of humans.

[@theworstcatholic7247]

Depends on what you mean by 'powerful', in the end the answer to your question is both no and yes. During the age of fire, the light soul is king, during the age of dark, when the age of fire is ending, the dark soul is king. The Dark Soul consistently spreads itself among other humans as the age of fire ends, however Gwyn would pimp slap Manus(the owner of the Dark Soul) at full strength. I mean he was final boss worthy after giving up his lord soul and spreading it many people, before being burned alive for literal centuries, even after all that his soul is shown to look more impressive than a lord soul. So in a 1v1 fight? Give it to Gwyn with ease, in the long run only dark will remain though.

[@Factboy12]

From 1:16 to 3:00. Is that music from Dark Souls itself... I swear I heard it before, but I can't remember. I especially love the part from 1:53 to 2:21. If someone knows, please respond.

[@Fentiman]

Factboy12 It's from Demon's Souls, Fool's Idol

[@TalentHouseAd]

Hey, anyone notice that Oolacile statue is holding a branch similar to the branches the cricket men in Dark Souls 3 summon to attack you?

[@Navy735]

Look at the shadow of the Pygmy in the intriguing and see that it transforms into an outline of manus furthermore looking at the root of the name manus 'Father of man" aka the furtive Pygmy

[@matthewmartinez3907]

I like the idea of Manus being the Furtive Pygmy it would be full circle with all the lords in one game.

[@thalesn]

I don't know how someone could say that Manus isn't the Furtive Pygmy. The evidence is SO strong one can take as a fact. Just like the Indocrination Theory from Mass Effect 3.

[@energyfitness5116]

Interesting! Wonder if the Dark Soul gains power in an opposite way than the Fire Soul, instead of conquering others(dragons)and consuming fuel(linking the Flame/regular fires burning wood) it burdens the holder until it cracks under the strain. Not unlike gravity compared to the Fire's radiation, it fuels itself not by transforming and releasing energy but by collecting it. Gwyn rewarded his followers by giving them a piece of his soul, delegating his power and spreading his will. Maybe the Pygmy worked the opposite: humanity was already spread out thin between all the humans in all the various planes and Manus/players act to gather and concentrate it? Humanity and Souls are the main resource of the game. Souls are currency and used to lvl up and empower the self. Humanity also powers the self but allows for the game shifting mechanic of invading/player interaction. Great vid! Im new to DS and will finish watching all your vids. -Gabe

[@Vlad88667]

Kaathe is just the best

[@MarcosAntonio-lj9up]

First of all, GREAT video! Very interesting theories, and they make a lot of sense. I do believe that the Furtive Pygmy turned into Manus, and that Oolacile's mages where definetly doing terrible things to humans in their research. What I disagree with, though, is WHEN the Pygmy turned into Manus. Consider this fact: Artorias was already famed as the Abysswalker when he went to Oolacile to help them. This HAS to be the case, because he is corrupted and dies shortly after; therefore, the spread of the Abyss in New Londo and Artorias heroic deeds there when fighting it HAVE to have occured before the events of Oolacile. With this in mind, the Abyss has to be OLDER than whatever experiments or discoveries the Oolacile priests did to unleash it on their own city. After all, if the Abyss was created because the mages found and tortured the Furtive Pygmy, turning him into Manus, how could've Artorias previously fought the Abyss in New Londo (which, again, HAS to have happened before the events in Oolacile, since Artorias is corrupted and dies shortly after arriving in the city)? My theory is that the Furtive Pygmy had already lost control of its Dark Soul a loooong time ago, turning into Manus and creating the Abyss in the process (which is nothing more than pure, out of control humanity, I'd say). The place where you fight him is where other ancient humans managed to sucessfully sealed him, using an item important to the Pygmy (the pendant) as the catalyst for the seal. It's an elaborate place because, even corrupted, he's the progenitor of mankind, so they'd have respect for him anyway. Eons later, the Oolacile mages would've found this place, guided by Darkseeker Kaathe, and, either intentionally or not, broken the pendant, freeing Manus and driving him into a rage for breaking his precious item. This is pretty much the only thing I interpret differently from you, though. Your Dark Souls Lore series are excellent, and made me love these games even more. Keep up the good work!

[@MateriaFF7]

Wow,, I'm really addicted to your lore's videos ! I really like this theory about Manus and the Pygmy, the name tell us a lot : FATHER of the abyss, at the end, in this world of madness, we have to kill our "father", the father of humanity. I'm also french, so that's a really good exercise to perform my english, double thanks :p

[@wilji1090]

Oddly enough, I don't think Kaathe had a thing to do with waking Manus. We're told it was the work of a "toothy serpent" by Marvelous Chester. Although it's easy to suspect Kaathe, what with his affiliations to darkness, the Abyss, and Humanity, but what exactly would he stand to gain from it? The Chasm of the Abyss is a realm rife with Humanity. There are chunks of Humanity that are so large in fact, that they seemed to have gained some form of awareness and are dangerous to touch. It's safe to say that this is probably either where the Dark Soul itself was situated, where it was effectively being reassembled, or at least where a lot of Humanity was being stored for safekeeping. Kaathe himself collects Humanity from the Chosen Undead, implying that he wants as much of it to be gathered into one place as possible. Releasing such huge amounts of Humanity goes against that plan, and that's pretty much what happened when Manus was awakened. Frampt, meanwhile, is in favor of prolonging the Age of Fire. He supports the plan to sacrifice Humanity to the First Flame in order to keep it burning. To do that, Humanity needs to be widespread, and it needs to be small enough for humans to carry safely. And when there's this huge glob of it going unchecked underground, you can bet he and his cohorts would want to address it. So by using that silver tongue of his (the same one he uses on the Chosen Undead), Frampt deceives Oolacile into awakening Manus and releases all the ripe Humanity he had within him in the process.

[@fyntaksakka429]

why does the red robes sealer in new londo tell me that the dark wraiths of kaath are the enemies to all living even though kaath wants to put us on the throne?

[@kedkos7417]

Kaathe wants to usher a new age of darkness and let the flame die out naturally. Manus would over throw the God's and that Lord's and become the ultimate dark lord and humanity would help him. The undead curse is released by the Lord's to sacrifice their humanity for the fire.

[@alecksandriagailendale4832]

Seaths crystal guys containing the people of oolacille are next to where manus pulls you through. Seath experimented with people by torturing.So I speculate that seath had influenced the torturing of the pygmy and thereby the creation of manus

[@heavenmaycryHQ]

now you can do the new DLC on old crown of the iron king since it comes out today omg cant wait to hear about it

[@Fireontire]

I really do agree with this, the name Furtive Pygmy also gives a sort of clue, most of the ¨Gods¨ and other races that rule over the Age of Fire are far larger than humans, humans in Dark Souls are Pygmies in that sense and the ancestor of humanity is the Primeval Human know as The Furtive Pygmy, so easily forgotten as humans can easily be overlooked by those who have power. The Dark Soul is humanity and all humans have a part of it inside their being, so we won't ever gain The Dark Soul from slaying Manus as we allready have it, every piece of humanity we gain is another fragment of the Dark Soul and the Soul of Manus is another piece of that, we just might have gotten the most powerful of the shards of the Dark Soul from Manus. The Age of Dark is the Age of Man and so if the Abyss is the world reacting to the Age of Fire being artificialy extended then it would stand to reason that the Darkness is struggling through humanity to return the world to the way it should be, Manus was the only finder of a lord soul that understood the way the world had to work for it to survive, and when Gwynn extended the Age of Fire he broke the natural order of things and the world responded, but I also believe that Manus torture at the hands of the people of Oolacile corrupted his purpose and so we took him down, to continue his work if the right choices are made. Anyway that is my view on it not truth set in stone.

[@chinodelfigalo9501]

Also Gwynn granted the furtive Pygmy with the ringed city . So that would mean oolacile is the ringed city ? Obviously not . So why was he rested where oolacile was built

[@Thirteen13551355]

Never expected to hear Schala's Theme on such a video.

[@alynt9260]

Great video, very well put together and you cover a great amount of detail! ...but i have a feeling in a couple of months you will have to make an update concerning this topic *g*

[@DaveControlLive]

Ha, just could be! Let's hope there are some badass updates to the lore!

[@WingedMad]

I share almost 100% of this theory, specially now that I know of the paralelisms with hinduism and the detail in the sprite of Manu's Soul (nice job catching that!). I like how the DS world presents Darkness and Light as neutral forces, untainted by the concepts of good or evil. We, as the chose undead, can choose between a world of light/fire and a world of darkness. From those two perspectives, the murder of Manus by the player can be seen as either duty (defeating an enemy of light) or mercy (ending the suffering of the first hero of darkness and gaining his power). The same rule could be applied (inverted) to the death of Artorias.

[@jayneukam961]

I was always told that the furtive pygmy is the 4 kings but I never really looked into it

[@bertiedatroll9057]

What if manus stored his dark soul in the pendant, and what if there still remains some left in it? Maybe this is why he searches constantly for it, through time itself he pulls the player... For an old pendant? I think for the remaining bits of his dark soul, which the player has.

[@stevesmith3638]

I feel you are correct but Bruce he is the furtive pygmy for a different reason, the "dark soul of your ancestor", thus making if you think about it, your ancestor, thus, you are the furtive pygmy

[@HumanoidCableDreads]

Manus wasn't the furtive Pygmy, he was a Pygmy King from the Ringed City. The people of Oolacile only started torturing and experimenting on people after they defiled the pygmy's grave.

[@HillwoodLam]

Thirty seconds into the video, had to comment on the Chirico trigger song

[@darzinth]

Hillwood Lam Chrono?

[@Lucifronz]

I don't believe the Pursuers spell description about being driven madly towards it's target has anything other to do than an explanation of why it goes after your enemies. But everything else seems pretty good. I don't know why but I never thought about the dungeons in Oolacile. It seems odd for such a peaceful place to have one tucked away, but I always thought that they just woke Manus and that he was already the way he is when the Oolacilians found him.

[@PoppaC44]

I always thought that the humanities by manus's area was from the people in oolacile

[@huntclanhunt9697]

Manus and the Furtive Pygmy sounds like a fairy tail title.

[@Floofers_]

Perhaps you can say that, in the same way that Nito is the first of the dead (most powerful), the pygmy is the most powerful human, due to obtaining the Dark Soul. And if it was how you say, and the other humans worshipped him, perhaps they didn't fully understand the extent of the Dark Souls' power: similar to the torturers of Oolacile.

[@TJD005]

Each Lord had a signature technique in which lesser variations were taught to their followers. Gwyn had Sunlight Spear, and his faithful followers learned Lightning Spear. Nito had the Scream Sword, and the Gravelord Servants learned Gravelord Swordsdance. The Witch of Izalith had Fire Sorcery, and she created Pyromancy. Kaathe stated the Furtive Pygmy's signature technique was Lifedrain, and Kaathe taught a lesser variation to humans (Dark Hand). If the Furtive Pygmy (Dark Lord) was truly Manus he would've utilized Lifedrain, but Manus never did. Manus only utilized the newly birthed Dark Sorcery (Hex) instead. This suggests that Manus was not the Furtive Pygmy. Manus was most likely an early human that had ties to where he was buried, underneath Oolacile (a kingdom of magic). The soul of Manus was "Lukewarm" meaning as a human Manus was a laid-back, easygoing fellow (resembling the passive magic of Oolacile). It was only when Manus was tortured that his intentions twisted the large store of Humanity (Dark Soul) within him. Manus focused the Dark Soul in a way sorcerers focus their own soul to cast soul spells. Unlike sorcery, dark magic is altered by emotion/intent. So the enraged Manus created new types of magic that was contradictory to what is taught in Oolacile.

[@TheLastSoundNL]

I never heard that dialogue from princess dusk, very interesting