Dark Side Craps - Winning at craps from the Don't Pass and Don't Come

[@williamkenny407]

John, I am a Don't player. I don't always win, because this game is the "bounce of the dice.". I do really like what I have learned from your videos concerning hedging the Don't Come out temporarily next to the Don't Pass bet. As we all know, while you hedge, the point could roll which would lose, but that's the part of the game that we have to accept. Thank-you for how easy you explain all the ways of the Don't.

[@ProCraps]

Hedging to me is very hot and cold. It works 100% of the time on some days, and bleeds out on others. Over the long haul, it's a bad play ... but yes, there are days where you thank your lucky stars you did it. I say that if you can't afford to lose that initial bet, then either lower it down to where you can afford it (if you can) or hedge it (if you can't ... like you're plaing on a $25 table or something)

[@waylonswaycraps]

Straight up 50$ don't is hard to beat at the end of the day

[@jamesanthony897]

No question that Michael is a world renowned mathematician and does very sophisticated modeling. That said, he is a “COME“ better (that being defined as someone who makes a “come” bet at any time on the table whether consistently or not) which makes zero mathematical sense at all unless you have a huge bankroll and a casino that will let you place astronomical odds on your “come” bet that would allow you to make as much money as simply “placing” the numbers in the box and picking the ones you want instead of letting a roll determine them for you. Do the math… deep irony here. Yes, we need to stop all rhetoric about the “Don’t” side because the casinos love that! I’ve actually seen other videos where dice influencers crow about intentionally using sets so that they are more likely to produce a seven just to sink a “don’t bettors” ship. I can only imagine Waylon goes after these tables and shooters like a heat-seeking missle-LOL! This sink a “don’t bettors ship” attitude I simply don’t get! Why? As John has pointed out in other videos do you feel the same way at a roulette table if you bet black and someone else bets red? Thank you for all of the hard work you do in bringing these videos to the Craps community John. You are doing an amazing job!

[@waylonswaycraps]

Waylon's got a don't bet wether it be minimum or alot! If I play passline it's minimum just so I can shoot! I've made more money on random shooters from the Dont pass! You could fill up a dump truck with 100$ bills

[@ProCraps]

Drives me nuts when I hear about people trying to throw 7s to drop other people out. That's BS, in my opinion. But generally speaking, people kinda suck, as the last couple of years have shown us! Shackleford prefers the Don't Come over the Come, but will switch sides based on mood. He's all about the house edge, 1.37% vs 1.41% is negligible, and that's how he sees things. Personally, I view every bet on that table as a potential tool that I can use, and I'll jump into my swiss army knife and make it happen! Thanks for tuning in

[@JayAr709]

“Letting the roll determine” for you effectively keeps you from guessing, a useful trait for the prepared dice bettor. In this game, you should be guessing as little as possible. However, the reasons to Bet On The Come ( and the Pass Line particularly) is, A.) first, to take advantage of Natural Elevens and Sevens in early winnings by parlaying them, in pursuit of a 3-to-1 return, or better; B.) to preserve the lowest house edge tactic that, at the same, orients the repeat seeker to be wagering LESS to win MORE, in that the Odds Bets he makes, when the point contest phase begins, will pay fair odds while he becomes underdog to the hand ( even while the Don’t bettors enjoying an insignificant 0.04 lower house edge (in flat comparison) must LAY their odds wagers, betting MORE to win LESS; and C.) as a Come bet point is designated-which is not truly a first “hit” for comparison purposes-it DID, at least, put in an appearance! Which, after all, is something whichever box point The Guesser who’s “picked his number” may never see, at any time his place or buy bet is in action.

[@TheSuperdaniel1970]

The best explanation of the mysterious dark side bet I have seen, and a powerful argument of the advantage of don't betting. Now if only the dice roll how they are supposed to :) Ty.

[@ProCraps]

Truth.

[@Listener827]

Smart and well presented John!👍👍😎

[@ProCraps]

Thanks 👍

[@MidAtlanticCraps]

Love this format! Love the content! Love the presentation and the information you present!

[@ProCraps]

Glad you like it ... let's see how this works over a few sessions.

[@ricks.563]

Good video John...I like what Bryan once said, when they announce shooting from the don't, I drop a nickel and yell Crew's on the don't!!

[@ProCraps]

You’re a better man than me. When I hear that, my next words are “Dealer bets down.” Generally happens once.

[@supramon808]

Been playing the darkside the pass week… and I been going home with money… instead of losing lol… I usually go early in the morning when no one’s playing just so I don’t piss off anyone

[@cosplaytimecapsule]

Yea same..play don't pass, max odds, bet it HUGE, and then get out after 1 or 2 hits. Don't go for more than 5 in a row you'll get trapped that way

[@cosplaytimecapsule]

Try to follow all the "superstitions" too, like don't say seven. That actually tends to produce a 7 more

[@ProCraps]

I love a progressive flat on the don’t.

[@gscop1683]

You always help clear up misconceptions! I thought the DP Was a Contract Bet! I also had some facets of the DC and DP confused (my previous comment on your DP strategy revealed that.) Thanks !

[@ProCraps]

Glad that was helpful!

[@patrickdebonis6493]

Laying odds is a necessary evil. Otherwise you have nothing to offset your losses on the come out roll.

[@DiChiaraDesign]

Great Video - Thank you for the information and how easily you conveyed and explained it. Might give the dark side a stab next time I play.

[@ProCraps]

Glad it was helpful!

[@mikepinkerton5496]

I really like your approach to craps. Have you done a video on hedging the DP and DC? I know you addressed hedging, but I couldn't quite get my head around it...

[@ProCraps]

I've done a bunch of those in the past. Check out the "Coffee and Craps" playlist where I covered that sporadically. I'll be doing a lot more of that on morning shows coming up as well. Make sure you subscribe to the Casino Gaming TV KZbin channel. I do a live show there every day at 8am

[@rogerrion5645]

Great move hedging the DC bet with Hop Red or DP odds. Love it.

[@ProCraps]

Yeah, I love using the odds for short term protection in the DC

[@andrewcarr2431]

You only have to look at the size of the Field and Come box on the table to see what the casinos are leaning the players towards. Now, both of these a perfectly fine bets, you won't retire on them long term but then if that is your goal you are in the wrong place to start with. there is a mathematical advantage to play the "Dont's", which is why the betting area is smaller. It's a mind game thing. Look at the size of the "any seven" area, right in the middle by the stickman so you have to expose your intentions to the jeering crowd. then again I was at a table one time where a group cleaned up playing the field and horn only. It was a monster roll of 20 without a single 7, 4 or 5 horns in a row! Crippled me, being a don't better. they got in, stuck gold and got out. It happens. Good for them. one of those statistical anomalies 😃

[@ProCraps]

That's true to an extent. A come betting strategy can work, as can a field ... but you have to be smart with it and really play it clean. The dice cooperate, and it can be reliable. But generally those are money pits.

[@waylonswaycraps]

Really the best thing about the passline is comeout 7,11s! Other than that it ain't worth 2 cents

[@JayAr709]

Take your $10 pass line bet and parlay those sevens and Elevens as The Dice Doctor once did: $20, $40, $80, $160, $320, $640, and watch a shooter establish a point he then repeats for a $1,280 return on your $10 flat. Or with less risk simply put your pass line stack on a 7-to-1 *leash* (Three Hit natural Parlay). Or even an easy 3-to-1 win (Two Hit natural Parlay). No need to bet Wrong at all. On qualified shooters, the Pass Line will suffice.🤷🏼‍♂️

[@ProCraps]

That's the entire reason it's got a low house edge. The bet that makes it through .... sucks.

[@waylonswaycraps]

@@ProCraps that's right

[@JayAr709]

Crapless Craps effectively makes double zero roulette players of dice bettors, taking them from a moderate 1.414 house edge to upwards of 5%

[@ProCraps]

That's a great analogy!

[@justinjdavis79]

Nice explanation John

[@cosplaytimecapsule]

The most I've EVER won on craps was playing don't pass and max odds and NOTHING else. I got up about 30k over the course of a weekend.

[@ProCraps]

I have gone in the early am on an empty table, totally ready to throw great and crush. But I always start on the don’t (horseman) and more than once I 7 myself right into a paycheck before I get the toss dialed in!

[@halp112]

Another nice video John Thank you 😊

[@mmunchie69]

Just bet the don’t but don’t lay odds on the point. Ya get by that first roll and your in the drivers seat.

[@harlanabraham7772]

Am subscribed and even hit the like button.

[@ProCraps]

Welcome to the party! Sorry it took me so long to greet you.

[@darrellq6954]

Light side Dice Setter shooters think they can control the dice to avoid the 7....so they have the edge...What are your thoughts?

[@ProCraps]

Some shooters may be able to stave it off a bit, or find a groovy pocket of box numbers, but at the end of the day, nobody has a real edge. If they did, they'd be billionaires. The best that a DI can hopefully do is throw well enough to give their way of play a better than average fighting chance. At least that's what my mission is.

[@JonKovach]

It's a psychological strategy by the Casino because they know the DP is better. So encourage people to cheer for each other on the pass line while they steal all your money🤣. Dark Side unite! ✊

[@ProCraps]

I can't say this enough ... we're all at the table to take house money, right? No matter who wins, every chip that leaves is one to be celebrated.

[@patrickdebonis6493]

Crapless craps is an absolute money burner for the come player. There, you need to make place bets. You can still make lay bets if you want to go dark, but it's not nearly as advanageos.

[@ProCraps]

Truth. It's a whole different animal and one that we need to really think about devising new ways to play with.

[@patrickdebonis6493]

@@ProCraps I already have. I keep walking.

[@samiam689]

I'm always playing the darkside

[@ProCraps]

I definitely switch back and forth. I definitely prefer my options.

[@dandvd.472]

Really great presentation John Bravo! Everything you said about the dark side is true. If I get a lot of negative attention on the table or I feel that way, I might play minimum pass line then get on board with some DC bets when I am rolling. If someone else has the dice I will not bet pass or don't pass. or I wish to place a 50 dollars on the don't pass I usually hop the sevens for $5 each and a $5 YO especially when I see a lot of sevens on the come out rolls. If I feel lucky, I may even include a $5 Hi-Lo. Keep up the good work John👍

[@ProCraps]

Thanks for the kind words. An option for you to explore is laying the back wall vs hopping the 7's when you get into the bigger numbers. It'll amount to the same $ lost on a come out box number, but the come out 7 can earn you bigtime profits. Consider this: $50 on the Don't Pass $200 lay on the back wall ($30 on the insides $40 on the 4/10) Box number costs you $30 Big red earns you $130 You would have hopped the reds for $12 to win $52 anyway. Why not put some juice out there and take a bigger swing at it, especially on a random shooter?

[@dandvd.472]

Yes and thank you John. I must try sometime. After the points established, you take down all your lay bets I presume?

[@patrickdebonis6493]

Have you ever considered that the odds of a seven rolling are the exact same as a live round in Russian roulette.

[@ProCraps]

Absolutely. Someone asked me once if dice control would turn the game into a positive for the player. If you could reduce the 7 by 1 down to a 5/36 then maybe. But I still wouldn’t play Russian Roulette with 4 bullets instead of 5!

[@LexWhitedotnet]

Betting "darkside" is a bad bet. The mathematical edge of betting darkside is so small (~0.05% or less) that it doesn’t outweigh the psychological benefits of playing with the table. You're 100% right: the casino prefers everyone to be on the same side, and so do the dealers. You play darkside because you're a mathematical gambler. That's fine, but the majority of gamblers are EMOTIONAL gamblers, and that's what the casino is primarily concerned with. You might walk up to the rail at a table because you know the odds. The majority step up to the rail and put money down because they see people having fun, cheering, getting excited. Even a single darksider at the table is a "cooler," he is putting the brakes on the vibe. Instead of everyone getting excited and cheering and sighing together as they win and lose, now someone is cheering for "the other team" and is acting as counterweight to that "wave" that is the "table vibe." It doesn't matter if this is rational or not, or true or not. Again, this is EMOTIONAL, and largely superstitious. Old-timers call a darksider a "Jonah," as in "he's bringing bad luck and gonna sink the ship, toss him overboard ASAP." When it comes to gambling in a brick-and-mortar establishment, the mood of the dealers is important, and nothing makes dealers happier than a cheerful, easy table that is tipping a lot, especially if they can ride the tips as bets with the players. Darksiders make tables more tense, they bring a feel of competitiveness, the darksider draws the ire of the players and becomes an emotional target as a tangible "enemy." I've seen people about to fight guys for placing DP bets. This extra tension is hard on dealers, and they usually won't let a tip ride as a bet on the Don't Pass because it is seen as splitting the players, so they're cut out of some of the action. Anyway, basically I'm saying there are a lot of kinds of "winning." The casino wants the players to "win" by having a good time, leaving with good feelings, wanting to come back again. A player can win by making some dealer friends with his tips, which leads to some VIP treatment with comps and drinks and so on, so that even when he loses at the table he wins something. A darksider is just out to win money by calculating the best odds, but the house edge is still there, so not only does the darksider not make any friends with the dealers or the casino or anyone at the table (often losing the benefits that happy dealers and pitbosses can get you) he still loses mathematically in the long-run. Not worth the 0.05% edge.

[@LexWhitedotnet]

Here is a more tangible illustration: You and I both walk up to a craps table with $1000. I play pass-line with odds behind, you play don't pass with odds behind. The house has a 1.41% edge on me, and a 1.36% edge on you. So over the course of an hour we both break even minus house edge after paying out $20 in tips and walk from the table. I've lost $14.10, and you've lost $13.60 to the house. But the superstitious culture about the darkside bettors means that the dealers view you with suspicion, the other players considered you a blight on the table, people were unhappy to have you around, the pitboss passes by and shakes his head. The dealers weren't able to play your tips as bets. So even though you tipped the dealers the same amount as me, the dealers had more fun playing with my tips. The croupier walks over to the pitboss and gets me my surf and turf comped from the steakhouse. So you saved $0.50 cents on house edge because you chose a mathematically superior strategy, and I got a $30 meal comp because I chose a socially/psychologically superior strategy. And this effect compounds the more you play at the same tables, with the same dealer pool, at the same casino. Eventually you and I will both earn a reputation with the staff, and even if we both tip exactly the same, "somehow" they will end up liking me more and treating me better. Yes, this is absolutely a way that the casino manipulates players to "play how the house wants." Yes, the house does all kinds of things to punish darkside players. Yes, it's bullshit. It's also true at a lot of casinos (at least in Nevada where I grew up and learned to gamble).

[@davidz8286]

So the casino will let you put 6x on the DP even on a 345x table?

[@CasinoGamingTV]

That’s right. 3x / 4x / 5x refers to the amount you can win not the amount you lay. So a $10 Don’t on the 4, laying 6x ($60) pays $30 which your 3x 6x the flat on the Don’t always works out perfectly to 3/4/5 on the numbers.

[@davidz8286]

@@CasinoGamingTV thanks much.

[@darrellq6954]

i like interrupting a hot roll with a big DC bet, in which the dealer has to stop the game, count my money, and take my time.....Usually after a roll or two, the 7 comes..... Just Kidding

[@patrickdebonis6493]

I don't think that the casino really cares which side you play. They have essentially the same edge on every bet. Having players betting on opposite sides just reduces the volatility.

[@ProCraps]

They care to some degree. If there's an equal number of Pass Line and DP players they end up hedging themselves to a certain degree. This is why casinos love crapless. It puts the entire table on one side of the 7

[@patrickdebonis6493]

@@ProCraps Not necessarily. There is always that one wise ass that will go with the direct lay...lol

[@pic-an-roll4931]

For the content

[@jimklemens5018]

Hopping the sevens to protect your Don't Pass bet is a sure way to lose money.

[@ProCraps]

100% I talk about that all the time. Hate the hop 7. But again, people need to know the options and the implications right?

[@jimklemens5018]

@@ProCraps I think you should have a conversation with Hawaii Craps Shooters and Craps Hawaii. Those guys love their hedges.

[@ProCraps]

@@jimklemens5018 I love those guys! This is the stuff that makes craps great. You can go full dark, full right, total hybrid, short term hedge, or just play it pure math. And none of those are right or wrong 100% of the time. They all win and lose. What other game is this expressive?

[@andrewcarr2431]

"Crapless" Craps and 3 zero roulette is the industries attempt to squeeze even more money from the punters. I refuse to play either. rather play $5 Electronic regular versions than $1 triple zero. But then I understand odds, house advantage and "math never lies".

[@Mr.Caring]

🍿😎👍

[@jimklemens5018]

You should never remove or reduce a Don't Pass bet.

[@ProCraps]

Mathematically? No. Over the long term that’s a dumb move. But if you want to lock up and walk. That’s more than ok. I very often will play a lower don’t pass with high odds as a hedge and then pull the odds. But the flat bet should be seen as a gimme

[@ProCraps]

I think the larger point though is that a lot of players don’t even know that it’s an option whereas the pass line is a contract. So knowing the difference, right or wrong, is important

[@jimklemens5018]

@@ProCraps If you want to eliminate your risk of losing your Don't Pass bet, simply make a Place bet on the point. That makes it so you can only win.

[@ProCraps]

Agreed. That works perfectly. In fact you can show a small profit that way too. But pulling everything off the table and bailing out completely amounts to essentially the same thing. And I’m down with it in that case. But what should you do? Place it equally and let it resolve.

[@jimklemens5018]

@@ProCraps By removing your Don't Pass bet, you can't win or lose. If you make a Place bet on the point, you can't lose and you will win.

[@patrickdebonis6493]

Sports bettors bet on different teams. Some tak the over. Some take the under. Horse players are betting on different runners. In each case, people root for their bets to win. No big deal. But if a wrong bettor roots for his bets to win at a craps tale, he's an outcast. smh

[@ProCraps]

Yep. Nobody scowls at the baccarat player that won on banker when the rest of the table was on player. Craps just has a different “we’re on the same team” energy to it though