darktable ep 090 - Dealing with a bland sky

[@AlainAhs]

I love your channel. With each tutorial I learn new things. Well done and thank you! And besides, although my English is rather weak, your channel is the only one on which I do not need to display the translation of the subtitles. The quality of your diction, the quality of the sound, the moderate rhythm of your speech do wonders for non-native English speakers. I recognize here a man of the radio, as I was in another life. ;-) And for once I might be able to teach you a trick ... You say "You can't zoom in while you are creating a mask". And yet, yes. Just keep the "A" key pressed. Then can zoom in and out, you can mose the image with the mouse. Very helpfull.

[@audio2u]

Thanks for the kind words! And yes, I had forgotten about the "A" key trick! Thanks for the reminder.

[@asquared8399]

I have to strongly endorse this opinion - and I'm a native English speaker! Bruce's approach is so much better, so much more effective than the 'pants on fire', 'manic mouse' approach so obvious among other dt video bloggers (you know who you are!).

[@audio2u]

Haha. I've spent the last 34 years directing voice talent, so that has probably played a big role in my vocal delivery! 😃

[@s7habo]

A hint when creating the drawn mask: You can use the excellent *mask refinement* function to make the *exact dividing line between the sky and the rest* by drawing the drawn mask *inside* the sky with *feathering sticking out into the rest*. If you then increase the feathering radius and contrast of the mask, you get precise border between the sky and the rest.

[@audio2u]

Thanks Boris! I shall investigate!

[@Eigil_Skovgaard]

Maybe like this example: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pnLFqoKIrJWgpMk at around 25:00 minutes.

[@earthgraduate726]

Boris comments on Bruce's video ! I have learned a lot from both of you guys and I thank you for that . Bless you . 🙏

[@manuelmatias3772]

Awesome video, I really like this new approach.

[@audio2u]

Cheers!

[@juhalintula1164]

One trick I learned from one of Auréliens videos was to use an additional exposure module and multiply blend. In the second one, in this case only for the sky, you crank the exposure up to +3EV (depending on the image) and use blend mode multiply. In the linear workflow going above 1.0 is not a problem, and it is the trick there. Dark pixels are in both instances below 1.0 so multiplying them gives a smaller value (darker pixel). For the lighter pixels we have gone above 1.0 in our second instance and now the multiplication gives us a larger value (lighter pixel). The trick is to play with the second exposure to find the desired impact.

[@audio2u]

I will have to investigate this.

[@juhalintula1164]

One comment I forgot from my tip, this requires a b&w or grayish image (part), as this will introduce shifts in hue.

[@tinymountain]

I followed this video with great results. Thank you!

[@audio2u]

Great to hear it! Cheers.

[@asquared8399]

HI Bruce, thanks making sense of my long rambling email in response to your episode 89 and doing justice to the issue of grey skies. As usual you have presented us with a most informative - and for users like me, a most helpful - episode. And, just as importantly, the comments from others (below) tell me that my request to you, (and the over-wordy posts I have made over on Pixls.Us about how to use darktable), do have some relevance to them - so I'll create more posts over there on this subject until I have allowed this 'bee in the bonnet' to escape. I must also say thanks for showing us some proper period Aussie architecture, in the likes of which I spent much of my wasted youth... Sorry to be so late in offering my thanks for your work and your channel.

[@audio2u]

No dramas!

[@metalmick99]

Thanks for this very useful tip/tutorial. It was also very timely.

[@audio2u]

Cheers!

[@charleshacker765]

Thank for branching out and doing workflows!!! That is a great way for us all to benefit from your experience. Modules are great, but workflows helps us put it all together.

[@audio2u]

Glad you find it helpful!

[@c64club]

Thanks much. Small tip. To get both drawn and parametric mask in another instance of module, just "duplicate instance".

[@audio2u]

Yep, of course!

[@prebenrasmussen6571]

Great video, and exactly the type of editing and explanation of how to use modules for a specific task that I dropped you a note about some weeks ago. Thanks - and already looking forward to the next great tip from you :-)

[@audio2u]

Cheers!

[@martinlang5139]

Hi Bruce, instructive as always. Many thanks for your continous work! Much appreciated. Greetings from Germany Martin

[@audio2u]

Cheers!

[@emrg777]

Color balance is great to add colour. Use the autopickers then add 180 degrees to what it selects and then you can add targeted saturation to the colour that already exists in the sky...

[@audio2u]

Nice one!

[@OrkUrgush]

Thank you, again I've learned a lot!!!

[@audio2u]

Glad to hear it!

[@bernym4047]

It is possible to zoom in whilst creating (drawing) a mask. Use the zoom control near the top of the left hand panel. 😀

[@audio2u]

Or hold the A key...

[@Eigil_Skovgaard]

Interesting problem, as the skies in my part of the world look much like their grey British brothers. That's where sky replacement can be necessary. I never thought I would suggest that. But with finesse and a bit meteorology it can be an image saving act. Further - if you have photographed the replacement from the same location, just on a better day - it feels more like bracketing ;O) By now you probably know that you can move all the small points in the feathering part of the mask in or out - equally around the mask with Shift and the mouse wheel while pointing inside the mask.

[@audio2u]

Thanks Eigil. It's been a while since I recorded this, but if I remember correctly, the reason I was doing the points manually was because I wasn't moving them all equally. Yes, the shift+mousewheel shortcut is ideal if you want uniform enlargement or contraction of the feather!

[@davidknowles5519]

Great stuff Bruce this is what I do even if the skies have only a few clouds the local contrast usually gives some depth and texture

[@audio2u]

The local contrast module is such a powerful module IMHO. I don't think I ever render an image without at least a touch of LC.

[@bigb2602]

As always, very informative and interesting, thank you very much!

[@audio2u]

No worries!

[@matthieupapin6483]

Thank you for this video and the clear explanations as usual. I am learning a lot about darktable with your channel. And I like this kind of subject of "how would you do this kind of effect using this or this module". Thanks again.

[@audio2u]

No worries!

[@AndreasJoos]

Great video! I enjoyed watching your videos, where you explained the single modules. Having watched them I really now like this kind of video, which seems more being set-up as problem solving tutorials 👍

[@audio2u]

Tracks Andreas!

[@BobOgden1]

Thanks, that was good. I agree with the suggestion of some practical soup to nuts run-throughs. It'd be nice to see you work a problem from the beginning. Now... The problem I have with skies is that there is unrelenting blue with no texture at all (living in WA as I do) so there's a struggle to get some background interest happening (pasting clouds 😢) What you do to liven things up

[@audio2u]

Funny, I've never thought of a clear blue sky as being a problem! I guess the only thing I could think of would be too add a vignette. Adding clouds would require a round trip to gimp and back.

[@BobOgden1]

When it has been cloudless for the last three months it starts getting a little boring 😁 Great if you are shooting Lawrence of Arabia, sometimes not so much if you want some subtle light

[@kiscsigabee]

Hi Bruce, over the last two years I learnt a lot of things about Darktable from your videos, many thanks for that! I am wondering wheter is there a way in Darktable to mimic other tools, that can copy over sky taken from an other photo or from some sample collection. I could not find such an option, but maybe you have some idea...

[@audio2u]

This is the 3rd time I've replied to this comment, but for some reason, my comment doesn't post. Let's try again.... The only tool in darktable which can do this kind of thing is the Retouch tool, but it's not really designed for large scale replacement duties. You really need gimp or potatoshop for things like what you're describing.

[@AkiraFurball]

@@audio2u Potatoshop.. Bwahahahah

[@audio2u]

I used to be an Adobe Ambassador (not for their imaging software, but for their audio software, Audition and the now-retired Soundbooth), and that was an in-house joke...referring to Photoshop as potatoshop!

[@mickehog76]

It feels like Christmas everytime you upload a new video :). I am still amazed by what you can do with a free software. Especially when Darktable have more features compare to an expensive software. You can use the mouse wheel to decrease or increase the feather. By put the mouse cursor on the feather space and then scroll.

[@audio2u]

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I know about using the mouse wheel for feather control. Not sure why I didn't do that in this video.

[@mickehog76]

@@audio2u No thank you ;). I am sure you are a big reason a lot of people are using Darktable.

[@pasqualeguglielmi4253]

Wonderful! When I need a new module instance to inherit all masking info I just duplicate it then I change what needs to be different, e.g. blend mode

[@audio2u]

Sounds like a good strategy!

[@abhishes]

I have an idea for a tutorial. How do you light up objects in a way that you simulate the light is coming from a direction. So for example I take a normal image and light it up in a way that the picture was taken at sunset when light was coming from the side.

[@audio2u]

Great concept.

[@emrg777]

I had one other thought on your video. When you were drawing the mask you talked about zooming and node selection issues. Would the use of the middle mouse button help here. Not many people seem to use it but pressing down on it takes you through a cycle of one press 100% a second press 200% and with a third back to full screen. The nice part is this is centered on wherever you hover or point you mouse and it seems to work quickly as the scroll wheel triggers multiple redraws as you zoom.....again I might have misunderstood your comment on the nodes so disregard if this make no sense for what you were encountering...

[@audio2u]

Interesting idea, Todd. I'll have to look into that!

[@helmoh]

Great video first of all. I never thought to use the local contrast for something like this. And it even has contrast in it's name. I usually go for the tone equalizer. Not sure if it would create weird artefacts, but do you think leaving the reflection on the road as part of the mask in the second image might actually look as if the new sky reflected there?

[@audio2u]

That's a good point! I should have left that section unmasked.

[@cosmo0080]

thank you

[@audio2u]

No problem!

[@93Logen]

The user manual recommends the Local contrast module to sharpen raw images. I try to use it, but my Olympus camera jpg seems better than DT in sharpening. What is the best workflow to sharpen raw pics in DT?

[@audio2u]

Good question. I very rarely try to sharpen my images.

[@93Logen]

@@audio2u I google it a bit and found a trick: turn on a 2nd instance of the Local contrast in bilateral grid mode to sharpen the fine details. It helps, but very easy to oversharpening the raw image with this mode. Anyway, thanks for your video. I have several early spring photos with a gray sky. I will try your technic to enhance them.

[@jrnine]

Hi Bruce, i think i watch more or less all of your masking stuff. What i miss is the possibility of a mask without the fethering points. Not the fethering turn on and of or move the points towards the mask, simply without fethering. Is this possible? I had some problem with the fethering of a second mask while excluding. For being more precisse, i will make a test, when i am finished with the series and try to show reproduce my problem.

[@audio2u]

There is a keystroke combination for feather control. I'm not on my pc right now, but from memory, it's shift+ mousewheel or ctrl+ mousewheel. Try both of those and look for the tooltip at the top of the interface. Once you know which combination it is, dial the feather down to zero and then create a new mask.

[@tomardill9193]

Thanks for another great video Bruce. I was interested to see you use the blend modes as I never use them as I don't really understand what they are, how they work or when to use them. Any chance of a video about use the blend mode?

[@audio2u]

Believe me, this is an often-requested topic, and the only reason I haven't done that video (yet) is that I also don't understand all of them. I understand the contrast-enhancing modes, but that's about it! If I could wrap my head around when/why for the others, I'd do it.

[@henryrichardson3508]

I notice that you are not using filmic rgb. Why did you decide not to use it for this photo? I see your history at 11:00 in the video.

[@audio2u]

I've been switching between "scene-referred" and "none" (in preferences) quite a bit lately. I hadn't even noticed, to be honest. Because I quite often use a tone curve, I get the same end outcome as I would have got form Filmic. But no, there was no real conscious decision to avoid it on this occasion.

[@henryrichardson3508]

Okay, thanks for the reply. I was just curious.

[@AnilAtluriWord]

Good one, Bruce.

[@audio2u]

Cheers!

[@ms7165]

Quick question. As a very recent converter from LR, you learned quickly never to make changes any where but within LR (folder structure etc.) After importing all images into Darktable you decide some weeks later you want to restructure your Folder system which you do on the actual hard drive. What does that do to DT? Do you need to remove and re-import or does DT recognize the changes and update?

[@audio2u]

Like Lightroom, this will break the door for darktable. However, darktable has the ability to move or copy the files itself. So if you let the app handle the mixes, you won't break the database structure. Look in the "selected images" module.

[@ms7165]

@@audio2u thanks, so as in LR if you make all your changes from within the app, those changes are reflected in the hard drive folders?

[@audio2u]

Yep

[@ms7165]

@@audio2u just watched the module you suggested. Got it! Thanks.

[@ms7165]

What distro do you use for these YT videos? I am attempting to learn via Mint but there is not a version 3.4.1 in the Software Manager.

[@fotografie-joerglang]

Great Video. Thanks a lot for this Video. Greetigs from Germany Jörg

[@audio2u]

Cheers!

[@emrg777]

I'll have to re-watch but you mentioned that the raster mask was only drawn elements I think when I believe it is the combined mask of all elements defined in any module and available to those that come later? As I said will have to re-watch but I thought maybe you said something different??

[@audio2u]

Oh... Maybe I've spoken in error, then. 😥

[@emrg777]

@@audio2u I think you started to do exactly what you should ie suggest to use the raster mask but then you went another direction and started to talk about the mask manager. The problem I think is because the raster mask contains parametric elements its defined where it occurs in the pipeline as adding new modules would change it's "parametric" definition. I believe this is why you can only use a raster mask from modules that come before when applying the raster mask to a new module. The kicker for me is while you can't edit it for these reasons in the new module you should be able to display it but you can't so some people might not think it working....but if you create a raster mask in your first instance with a parametric and as many drawn elements as you like you can use that raster mask in all subsequent instances of that module or any other that comes after it in the pipeline you just can't display it which I think it would be nice to be able to do as a check....you can throw on diff blend mode and sort of see it but its not clear. A trick I was told about the raster mask was if you want to mask an area throughout your edit ...create a dummy exposure module at the start and create your combined mask and now you can use that as a raster mask at any point...its not perfect but that works for some situations ...could use that for a sky and foreground mask situation like you have here..

[@audio2u]

Great info. Thanks Todd!

[@mktouthang]

Hi Bruce, how does one deal with an overblown sky in the background? Perhaps some are simply beyond redemption? I'm a newbie and have got stuck repeatedly dealing with this issue. Any tips would be really, really helpful!

[@audio2u]

If it was shot in RAW, the exposure module will help up to a point. If it was shot as a jpeg, then you're pretty much stuffed, due to the 8 bit nature of jpeg. Also, try adding an RGB Curve module with a "multiply" blend mode. That MIGHT help a little bit.

[@mktouthang]

@@audio2u thanks a lot for getting back to me. your videos are my "go to" tutorials for anything 'darktable'! :-)

[@audio2u]

Cheers!

[@nigelblanchard5571]

How well would DT cope with repairing old BW photos from say the 1950s that need lifting - I realise that many would not have the focus detail but I have seen only a couple of attempts on YT that of course plough in with PS and Lightroom which means that it is too expensive to do and wondered if you had worked on some older damage phots?

[@audio2u]

If you are looking to repair cracks and paper folds and so forth, you really need an app which does multi-layer editing (gimp, affinity photo, etc). The only tool which darktable has which might help is retouch, but I suspect that would be a slow and laborious way to do it. Possible, but not something I would want to attempt!

[@alanmcpherson1122]

Can you Focus Stack in Darktable? Perhaps a variant of the HDR function?

[@audio2u]

I'm not sure on that one. I think focus stacking requires a call to some third party library, which may or may not be part of darktable. I'd have to check the manual for that.

[@autoauto2000]

u r in the UK?

[@audio2u]

No. The convict settlement... Australia maaaaate! 😃

[@GaryParris]

Just wanted to reach out to let you know I have added links to your account as part of a video I have put together to bring together a source for promoting content and tutorial makers in FOSS to raise the level of awareness of the true power of open source to use in their everyday life as artists and in general day to day!

[@audio2u]

Thanks Gary!

[@GaryParris]

@@audio2u you're very welcome Bruce :O)

[@VladimirKorsun]

Waiting for CR3 support. :CRY: :CRY: :CRY:

[@audio2u]

Yeah, that has to suck. 😥

[@mickehog76]

Me too. But Exiv2, which Darktable uses for raw files, will soon have support for cr3. That version is in alpha I think. So I don't know how good it works. But until then we must use Adobe Dng converter :(.