Why did the Númenóreans turn evil?

[@mikedeck8381]

From what I can recall Tolkien stated that the Numenoreans regretted the decisions of their ancestors, to choose a mortal life. Not sure how many of them could trace their lineage back to Elros but after 3,000 it's likely that a large part of the population did have some elvish blood. Like Mel Brooks said, "It's good to be the King." The Valar and the Eldar showered them with gifts, long life, a safe haven, the Eldar likely taught them many skills that they didn't teach other men. So over time that went sour imagine that. Perhaps if they understood mortal men, they might not have been so quick to set them so much higher above all the other men. It seems like they fell victim to their pride rather than that they truly became evil. Other men were either servants, vassals or slaves, elves were more formidable as were dwarves, but they lacked the numbers to challenge Numenor. It got to the point where only the Valar were seen as being peers. So why shouldn't they share in eternal life?

[@istari0]

It was only Elros who chose a mortal life and his descendants received a longer lifespan than the average Númenorean, who still lived around 3 times as long as the men of Middle-Earth. If Elros had chosen to be an elf, he would have remained in Middle-Earth with Elrond and the other elves who did not return to Valinor. Who knows what effect that would have had on the history of Númenor?

[@mikedeck8381]

@@istari0 The exact quote I was referring to, the mention above is a paraphrase was, "Later, they begrudged the choice of their forefather." Of course, its speculation to guess how many Numenoreans could trace their lineage back to Elros. Genghis Khan, a 12th century figure maybe has 30 or 40 million descendants. It seems fairly clear that Numenoreans only married other Numenoreans. By the time of Ar Pharazon there might have been millions of Numenoreans who could trace back to Elros. Maybe there was 20-25 million Numenoreans at this time according to Tolkien. It seems reasonable that the mixed heritage of the Numenoreans played some sort of role in them becoming besotted by immortality.

[@istari0]

@@mikedeck8381 It's hard to say. If Elros had chosen to be an elf, there would be no elven ancestry in the Númenorean population, just men living up to somewhat over 200 years. Having longer lives also means there were fewer generations across the 3000+ years of the 2nd Age and there is nothing to suggest families were using those long life spans to have huge numbers of children per family. There may not have been as many Númenoreans with elven ancestry as you think. Personally, I think that something like meeting an elf and realizing this is the exact same elf that your great-great-great grandparents knew would be a bigger influence but your idea is an interesting one.

[@mikedeck8381]

@@istari0 It probably played a role, that quote hints at it but it's hard to quantify. It's just not that elves are immortal, but their fate is different and their connection to the Earth/Arda is much stronger. Beyond that it also seems like Tolkien is exploring the idea of what would happen if an ethnic group or culture of men whatever you want to call it, was raised above all other cultures and/or ethnic groups, blessed with greater health, lifespans, superior technology, granted a land that was unassailable that would be theirs forever. His answer is that most of them would become corrupted, they'd conquer the world and make war on the very beings, the providence who granted them these blessings. It seems like a critique of the colonial system and other ideologies in vogue at the time that he was born into, albeit in a very backhanded way. At least that's my take on it.

[@cosmicpotato3849]

Why did the Numenorean lifespan suddenly start to decrease? As a punishment for their rebelliousness to the Valar?

[@ArJay1688]

I have a theory that since Numenorean royalties have Elven blood, their connection to Arda is increased and so comes their fear of death a lot sooner and death means leaving everything they've grown to love behind. Remember that Elven spirits are bound to Arda. To them, it's their only home and they want to preserve everything that's dear to them. This 'innate' connection to Arda coupled with Men's restlessness made them more attached to things that are temporary and as a result, they've become more fearful. This is somewhat noticeable when Arwen came to understand the Numenorean's fear of death when Aragorn was about to relinquish his life. Arwen wants him to live longer cuz she, having chosen mortality, is not ready yet to 'go' to wherever he's going. She wants to cling to life while he is now ready to 'move on'. In short, Arwen represents how the Numenoreans may have felt during those times - the resistance to 'move on'. Anyway, this is just mu theory. I just kind of thought about it cuz originally, Eru designed Men's spirits to only find rest 'beyond' the circles of Arda and is not contented with the material things while Elven spirits are bound to Arda and therefore, becoming attached to things that are made from it.

[@aesir1ases64]

I liked this theory, makes sense to me.

[@istari0]

That's a very interesting thought and it fits well with what Arwen said at Aragorn's passing.

[@bigthoughts2644]

Great insight

[@hannotn]

But only those stemming from the two couplings of elves and men have elven blood. That would be a tiny fraction of the population.

[@Diegoromir]

Poor Darth Gandalf, little does he know that the reason for Númenor's downfall was because, "The elfs took our joooobs!!!"

[@VSMOKE1]

shut up knife ears sympathizer

[@forickgrimaldus8301]

Whats hilarious is its probably by accident but its like a sly dig at Their low payed workers

[@universalflamethrower6342]

those Numenoreans should have listened better to the sea, it is always right

[@JoeyvanLeeuwen]

Derk a derrrr! 🐓🐓🐓

[@rydawg8934]

pyrochlastic flow

[@alanpennie8013]

I don't think The Valar are blameless for the downfall They offered The Edain extended life as a reward for fighting against Melkor. If extended life was a good, it was quite reasonable to believe that indefinitely extended life was more of a good.

[@sageofcaledor8188]

I disagree. The Valar gave the Numenoreans extended life because it was the best option. They were still men and subject to the Gift of Death. But they were granted extended lifespans to be content

[@DarthGandalfYT]

@@sageofcaledor8188 Yep. They were doing what they perceived to be a good thing. They couldn't have known that the Numenoreans would want even more, and their hands were tied in the end: only Iluvatar could provide eternal life.

[@aesir1ases64]

It could be seen as such for the later Numenoreans, I can even see Sauron using this argument to convince Ar- Pharazon. Of course in reality, maybe imortal life would be a pain in the ass lol, specially the elves who are tied to the end of the world.

[@sageofcaledor8188]

@@aesir1ases64 Tolkien wrote that man could not physically handle immortality. Plus, yea you are right. The trade off of elves immortality is they are forever tied to arda

[@istari0]

@@aesir1ases64 At least some elves envied men for knowing their souls would travel beyond the Circles of the World upon death. The elves didn't know if anything awaited them when Arda finally ended.

[@alanmike6883]

Aragorn showed why the gift of men was exactly that. A gift for Dunedain. Though I admit, maybe the valar should've been more open. Communication does seem to be a weakness of the powers of the west 😉

[@alanpennie8013]

They find it more difficult to relate to humans than elves.

[@sageofcaledor8188]

What else could the valar have said? In the end it was an act of faith.

[@alanmike6883]

That as they were made from eru, so were the elves and men. But eru men mortal. Not the valor. They could give men a little boost of life, but they couldn't change their nature. They didn't have the power

[@videocrowsnest5251]

I do think that the powers that be in Middle-Earth really needed to work on their HR and PR departments, because they have rather horrible handing of such affairs. It's basically how Morgoth managed to convince so many to follow him; Just by talking and engaging with them more actively than Eru and his seldom offered wisdom. And when a destructive nihilist is better at talking to peoples than such divine entities, it's time to hire some better consultants (Eru could just create some from scratch too, all things considered) and go back to the drawing board. Most of the messes in Middle-Earth seem to come from the Valar (and even Eru at times) having a horrible habit of not communicating very well, or otherwise committing the classic blunder of assuming just cause they are immortal and got permanent memory, it doesn't mean everyone else has, and just cause you say it once it doesn't mean people will all remember it due to mortality and all that jazz. Which is all definitely something the Valar probably should have picked up after the second, third, fourth, or fifth time it happened, because clearly this was going to be an issue they ought to think on how to tackle, as it's just going to keep creating problems down the line. Then again, the one time they did send one of their own with a good understanding of verbal communication, and how to talk to people, they ended up joining team evil and wanting to build their own little empire from some silly backwater placed called Isengard. I wouldn't be surprised if half the reason Saruman did it was that he was tired of having to play messenger for the incompetent Valar HR/PR department, with bosses whom are way above his pay grade anyway, and shoulda thought of this all eons ago instead of having him wander about the place thousands of years after the whole project should have been green light and started to begin with. And it's not like he can complain to management either, on account of this being one of those long term assignments with sketchy salary plans, co-workers you don't like, and nonexistent bonus packages, with a high risk of getting clobbered to death by angry local indigenous species (which even with a possible respawn negotiation probably isn't a very enjoyable experience), which he can only blame himself for due to signing up for this assignment to begin with.

[@sageofcaledor8188]

@@alanmike6883 eru had all the power. As his favorite creation, man can live in eru's presence after death.

[@keyboarddancers7751]

12:55 My goodness. Tolkien thought of every minute detail in his vast legendarium even to the point of giving the Drúedain a sense of truly momentously prophetic foresight! Here's another interesting thought: when Elrond arrived in the Undying Lands at the end of the Third Age, he's bound to have encountered Elves who may have had direct contact with some of his Númenorean kinsfolk. Tolkien leaves so many wonderful unmarked by-ways for us to follow. Truly an amazingly creative author!

[@janach1305]

The Ban of the Valar set the Numenoreans up to fail. It essentially drew a line in the sea and told the Numenoreans, “Don’t step over this line.” Yet we are told that it is the defining characteristic of Men, as instilled in them by Eru, to cross all boundaries. It doesn’t matter if what’s on the other side of that line is power and immortality or just another green pasture. Men WILL feel a compulsion to climb over that fence. The only surprise is that the Numenoreans obeyed the Ban for as long as they did.

[@bloodysimile4893]

Nah, it still fall upon Numenoreans. There a difference between being just having the feeling of complusion and acting on your complusion despite knowing better.

[@rafaelgustavo7786]

It touches on a very beautiful and controversial point of the Downfall of Númenor: the fear and universal urge of humanity to flee from death. It's a quest that Roy and the other replicants did in "Blade Runner". Would you kill and destroy for longer life? Would it supplant all morality and the "pre-established" order in search of the "good of life"? Would you do all this to exercise and experience so much potentiality and happiness that are lost because of death? Would you destroy everything on the way to go "after God" and get this gift? How many discoveries, knowledge and joys has man not achieved "overcoming dogmas, impositions, prohibitions and absolute truths? How to demand of us, ephemeral flames, that "blind" trust when man is forbidden in Valinor, but the Elves - they could be in Middle-earth and go to paradise whenever they wanted. That would be an injustice in the eyes of men. I quote this sentence that I saw on a forum: "When i read the comments i get the impression evryone thinks the Numenoreans gto evil, while they were just being less elvish and more human. And in Tolkiens world (a bit in contrast to ours) there IS a major injustice - of the Humans there is "required a blind trust" while the elves go straight to paradise :D -in my opinion the envy isnt so unnatural -and it certainly isnt straight away evil."

[@LeHobbitFan]

Don't know, man, human sacrifices seem pretty evil to me

[@aesir1ases64]

That goes in accordance to Tolkien's faith, anyone that is a Catholic needs to have "a blind faith" (after all faith is always "blind"), if not one rejects it. I think Numenor's downfall is a reflection of what happens when one loses this faith, the same one that actually makes no sense when you "open your eyes" but without realizing losing this believe in the final reward is what sets up people to a path of destruction and evil deeds. I could be wrong, but I think Tolkien seeing how his world was rapidly losing faith in life after death and how this same fear of death leads people to want short term rewards at any cost, told the tale of the Numenor to reflect this fundamental problem. I think his quote of "life is a long defeat with small glimpses of a final victory" sums up the history of Numenor well.

[@istari0]

The conversation between Finrod and Andreth talks about the Fall of Man but it doesn't go into detail about what they were like before their corruption at the hands of Morgoth and how they were changed. Whatever it was, my view is that it was possibly the worst deed ever committed by Morgoth. However, that doesn't excuse the evil deeds of the Númenoreans.

[@titanscerw]

Error - Envy is and always was Evil - on eof the sneakier ones not so easy to spot how it corrupts souls minds and ultimately bodies of its victims in carcinogenic manner, but great evil none the less - after all it is one of the Cardinal Sins that will take you straight to Hell if unrepented before you die. Reference to quality source: Syllabus of Errors kzbin.info/www/bejne/e6PTk3mqaZmneq8

[@niks660097]

human sacrifices, mass murders, killing innocent, superiority complex these doesn't seem "controversially evil" or in any shape or form helping their mortality.

[@gagaplex]

Numenor's star-shape is kind of cute, like children's cartoon character.

[@michaelodonnell824]

How much of the corruption of Men was due to the negligence of the Valar? When the Elves awoke, the Valar were too busy enjoying themselves in the Undying Lands and Melkor was able to corrupt enough Elves to create the Orcs. But when Orome discovered the Elves (clearly so many years later that Melkor already had a vast army of Orcs) the Valar reacted, and warred with Melkor and dragged him into Prison and then protected the Elves offering them the choice to come and live in Valinor. The negligence towards the awakening of the "First Children" was like obsessive love when compared to the utter abandonment of the "Second Children". The first time the early Men learn of the Valar (who were charged with being the guardians and protectors of Illuvatar's Children) is when they encountered Elves. Now the Valar knew that both Children would come but still allowed Melkor/Morgoth free reign in Middle Earth TWICE. They sat enjoying themselves in Valinor leaving the Children to whatever fate THEIR Problem (Melkor) determined for them. Remember, if it weren't for Orome's love of hunting, they might never have learned of the coming of the First Children. Yet, despite that neglect, they seemingly felt no guilt and seemed quite content that Men would also experience the Immediate corruption of a Middle Earth dominated by Morgoth. This is Absentee Landlordism at its worst.

[@stefanovitali2925]

Earendil missed a great chance to dunk on Mandos with your argument when the latter wanted him put to death for bringing mortality in Valinor. It would've made the Valar aware of men's grief and rage, and Earendil a more compelling character. TLDR I wanted Earendil to call the Valar racists on their faces

[@stevenevenshow2790]

Finally a good LOTR youtuber.

[@ChristianMcAngus]

You place some temptation (Valinor in this case) close at hand, and tell Men not to take it. Even without Sauron, sooner or later the Numenoreons would have given into temptation. The Valar set them up for failure.

[@terrystewart1973]

You could speculate that Sauron took advantage of the fears of the Númenóreans well before Ar-Pharazôn captured him. You can easily imagine Sauronic propaganda fostered in the men who allied with Sauron reaching the Númenóreans in Middle-Earth. I can imagine it trying to make out that the elves and Valar were perfectly capable of granting men immortality, but just didn't want to because they were trying to keep the Númenóreans weak, and feared if men (Númenóreans at least) if would be them not the Valar, who would rule Middle Earth. And perhaps Sauron would claim he had proof of that as he, Sauron, was indeed capable of granting men immortality (ie the nine Nazgul), using magic stolen from the elves, so the Valar were lying when they claimed it was impossible. And further, he might claim, hadn't the Valar once greatly extended the lives of the men of Númenór, and punished them by taking those longer lives away when the Númenóreans spoke against the Valar?

[@reaganhayden5165]

You made a sound argument 😮

[@Barbossa778]

Chalk this up as another sycophantic comment, but I truly believe you deserve all the praise that you can get. You are now at 18,000 subscribers. I remember when you were sitting at 500. Thankfully you took mine and others advice and set up a Patreon. Now you are almost to 20,000 subs and an absolute titan among KZbinrs as far as I’m concerned. I love your content and I think you should be celebrated. If that makes me a fanboy so be it, but I absolutely love your material. Please keep up the good work I look forward to all of your videos and whenever your next live stream will be.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Thanks, mate, much appreciated. It's still surreal to me that my videos are now watched by tens of thousands. Crazy that only a year ago I was lucky to get 2,000 views. I'll always remember the names of those who were with me from the start.

[@thelastbison2241]

Should have taken Sauron's one ring and spent generations analyzing it by large number of sorcers. Would have figured out immortality eventually...

[@Artoosa]

Great video, you are very underrated and entertaining! Keep up the great work! Been immersing myself in LOTR lore for the new show, I hope we see the fall of Numenor happen and Sauron's coercion of the people, if not in this season, then the next.

[@bleekskaduwee6762]

He is criminally underrated

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Thanks for the kind words. I would expect we might see the Downfall of Numenor in S3 or S4. Long ways to go yet.

[@aesir1ases64]

@@DarthGandalfYT Will you make a review of the series? I am very curiously to see your take on it, specially how they are changing the lore, since to me, you are among the best Tolkien youtubers regarding Tolkien's lore.

[@muenchhausenmusic]

@@aesir1ases64 I love Darth Gandalf's channel, his style. One of three of my favourite Tolkien KZbinrs. However, the lore master (mistress) is def Girl Bext Gondor! Check her out if you haven't ready!!

[@DarthGandalfYT]

@@aesir1ases64 When it finishes. I'm not a fan of reviewing things without knowing the full story. And I'll definitely be reviewing from a standalone perspective, as well as from a lore perspective.

[@marcusegonson7403]

Could you try to make a video about how Gandalf or Saruman viewed the orcs? Did Gandalf have any sympathy for them as tortured souls or as ugly deformed works of Morgoth? Nothing else than evil enemies?

[@realworldforum]

I have always thought that it was strange that Elendil managed to get at the age of 322 before being killed but the later Numenorean kings died at just above the age of 200. You think it has anything to do with their faith for Eru and the Valar?

[@jimmyjoyce3554]

yes. as the men of numenor became more evil/ began to doubt the valar their life spans shortened immensely for example the oldest king of numenor lived to be about 500 years old this was before numenor fell to darkness but once they did the life spans reduced to around 200 or even less

[@rotwang2000]

Many things in Tolkien follow the law of diminishing returns, you get men raised to high status, but gradually lose it over time. Numenor sinks, but they get a new chance to start anew in Middle Earth and they prosper for a while before their kingdoms diminish over time. Gondor's history is one of brief victories for small gains, or maintain the status quo, but in most cases it's a gradual loss. Aragorn isn't the fancy ordained king, he's the very last hope to turn the tide and in Tolkien's mind the rot would set in a few generations after the War of the Ring.

[@realworldforum]

@@rotwang2000 couldn't have said it better, but my point is what are the conditions for those times of splendour? Do the Dunedain need to suffer war or catastrophe to gain that time of splendour? Is it their fate to just be forgotten into the Fourth Age like they never existed?

[@alanpennie8013]

@@realworldforum It would seem so given that they had been forgotten by the time Tolkien was writing (if we accept The Legendariun as authentic history). "Much that once was is lost. For none now live who remember it."

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I do believe it has something to do with remaining faithful to the Valar. I used to think that Elendil might've been exceptional, but what we know of Amandil indicates that he was also 300+. Seems like the Lords of Andunie retained their lengthy lifespans.

[@Thumbdumpandthebumpchump]

Boy do I love Turner Mohan's art.

[@venkelos6996]

In other videos, it is stated that the longer lives of the Numenorians is a blessing of the Valar, as a reward, of sorts, for their good deeds. In truth, I often used to believe it was more the perk of heritage involving Elross, who became Man, but onve had Elven immortality, and still kept exceptionally long life, but if that was only some Edain, and the rest received it as more of a gift, like the island itself, and ifvtheir slow turn to evil resulted in tbe Valar slowly withdrawing their favor, then could they have believed Morgoth could give them even longer life? He was evil, so he wouldn't, and he was mostly out of the picture, at that point, but if "the Valar" could tinker with the Numenorians' lifespan, making it more Luke that of Elves, and take that away, when it suited them, and if Melkor was once the single mightiest among them, then could the Numenorians believe that their faith in him would lead to him eventually rewarding them with ever linger life? It honestly doesn't feel like something the Valar should have had the power to do, instead of Eru Illuvatar Himself, but if they could, then I almost imagine Morgoth COULD, even if he never woyld, because evil, nihilistic monster. I do also wish that the separation between the Men and the Elves had been more solid. That likely just speaks I'll of me, but since the Elves can live in Valinor AND Middle Earth, or even Numenor, if they liked, and seemingly have no issues in any place, it only further seems to prove to the Numenorians that the Elves are better treated. WE know that the Elves don't have it all so easy, and many of them do "suffer", and diminish, in Middle Earth. They could leave for Valinor, but each have their different reasons for not, whether because they love this land, their comrades among Men and Dwarves, or simply don't want to change their spot in the pecking order (Elf Lords here may not retain it there, where ageless Elf Lords have already been). Still, their suffering isn't often visible, and the gods never appear to actually deny the Elves something, as opposed to the Men, and sp every Elf they see is like another reminder that Elves are seen as the favored Children of Illuvatar, even if thus isn't actually true, from our perspective. It's sort of like God leaving the Tree in Eden, right there with Adam and Eve, but then denying them access to it, or reason for why. Oh well.

[@bloodysimile4893]

If I summarize, tree of eden is the tree of knowledge. God gave Abam and Eve as the garden caretaker with one rule, don't eat the fruit as a responsibility as much as a test for Abam and Eve freewill to be stronger to follow the rule over their desire, much like a parents leaving their child who is responsible enough to be left alone at home. Or receiving a job with responsibility you must attend on your own ability. If God didn't place the tree with a chance of failure, Abam and Eve couldn't really demonstrate that they are following God by choice. Ultimately Abam and Eve gave into their desire and ate the fruit. What follow after is worse with Abam blaming Eve and Eve blaming the serpent, instead of accepting responsibility of their transpass. There are many tales where man was given a simple task but the man ultimately fail to up hold to the responsibility they given. Numenoreans is such one tale, attempting to have more when they already have enough. There is one story where a General had a deadly disease and seek a cure. He when to a prophet of God for such a cure. The prophet told the general to bathe into the muddy river seven time. The general was angry by the simple instructions and rush off. Only general was stop by his servant who, "if God demanded a hard task, you would have do it without question. So why not do this simple task?" General took his servant advice and bath in the muddy river and was cured. Such tales are lessons of doing and upholding to your responsibility, even if you don't understand at that point of time. If you can't do the simple task, how can one expect you to do the more complex task?

[@ryancarter1080]

Perhaps you can do a video on how Aragorn managed to take back so much of Gondor's lost territory. E.g. Umbar, Sea of Rhun etc. After all Gondor and Rohan's military had suffered heavy casualties and were exhausted by the end of the war of the ring, not exactly in a state that allows massive conquest especially since Aragorn also resettled Eriador and probably had to send massive amounts of soldiers up north to protect the new settlers from Orcs (Misty Mountains), Dunland, bandits or simply wild animals. The only feasible way I could see it happening was that Sauron's former vassals began to fight against each other and exhausted themselves allowing Aragorn to conquer them.

[@evanjohnson1299]

everybody was exhausted and without Suaron's influence/backing many former enemies where more than willing to negotiate peace treaties, plus without constant war from Mordor, and it's vassals, Gondor could replenish it's strength over the first couple decades. and most of the territories retaken where just wild land with no controlling government outside a few scattered settlements so retaking them was just a matter of rebuilding and repopulating them not conquest.

[@celionovais6273]

The Valar simply don't know where the human's soul goes after death, only Eru Iluvatar knows it. It's something related to the music that created the world, and each one of the Valar only had glimpsies of this subject, that's why the Valar's envoys to Númenor also don't know where the humans goes in the afterlife. And yes, I think it's unfair, only the humans need to have faith, and the elves don't, the elves know where they go after beign slain, to spent sometime at the Halls of Mandos depending on how they live, if they were bad they spent more time there, untill they reincarnate in a same original body at the eternal paradise of Valinor, their own Undying Land. However, their spirits are eternally tied towards Arda, and that's why the man's destiny is view as kind of a "Gift" from Eru. It made both Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron after him, to easilly corrupted the hearts of men by exploiting this doubt, by saying that Eru doesn't exist at all and that the Ainu (the Valar and Maia) and the Elves are imortals because of Valinor, and the men will simply die forever, swallowed by the eternal darkness, or "The Void", the same void from where Motgoth went and that's why the men need to worship him as their true God, and if they want to be imortals as the elves, they need to go to Valinor. But it's funny, because both Morgoth (as the most powerful Valar) and Sauron also really didn't know where the men's spirits went, and it puts another doubt, despite the fact they were both liers and deceiver characters, there was the probability that they trully believed in their distorted view, of course, they were a part of the Ainulindalë, they were directlly created by Eru Ilúvatar himself and they know he exists, but their theory relating men's destiny and the void, maybe it's a thing they trully belived, because they also had this doubt.

[@jonystyles9473]

Thanks bro another amazing video with precise lore, keep it up!

[@sageofcaledor8188]

Great video! I never suspected Morgoth had something to do with it. Thank you for informing me

[@xaviermontesdeoca2440]

The dialogue between the elves and the numenoreans is really interesting, at the end of the day, what use are the words of those who not die about mortality?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Exactly.

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

Tar-Ciryatan planted the seeds that will lead to the Downfall of Númenor.He is the worst King of Númenor,o and he may also be the Witch-king of Angmar.

[@mhagain]

There's actually nothing in Tolkien's writing to indicate that the WK was Númenorean. It's a common fan assumption, but a fan assumption is all it is.

[@MajinOthinus]

@@mhagain But at least 3 of them were Numenorean lords and given the outright superiority, in body and spirit, of the Numenoreans to the men of Middle Earth, it is only logical that the greatest of the Nazgul would be a Numenorean. Especially because he came to command the black Numenoreans of Carn Dûm.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

@@mhagain It's never outright confirmed, but there are hints that suggest he might've been a Numenorean. He's described as the tallest, and in the Ford of Bruinen scene, he and two other Nazgul are the first to enter the water, suggesting that they might be the three Numenorean Nazgul.

[@jakobrenner2230]

@@mhagain It is also worth noting that the Witch King’s power is always portrayed as being far greater than that of the other Nazgûl. Taking into account the fact that at least three of them are of Numenorean blood, I don’t think it is too much of a stretch to imagine that two could be Numenorean lords that Sauron seduced to his service and the Witch King himself has the blood of the Numenorean kings (but almost surely was not a King of Numenor himself, maybe a prince).

[@aesir1ases64]

Theo is the Witch King 😂😂😂

[@muenchhausenmusic]

Your advice shall be heeded

[@AodhanBeag]

You can’t help but reflect and see many similarities between this collapse and our own society’s flaws

[@istari0]

Outstanding video! The only objection I can muster is that the Drúedain were right when they argued against Númenoreans leaving the island. Had that happened, Sauron would have easily defeated the elves and ruled over all of Middle-Earth and that would have been an even worse catastrophe.

[@denizen9998]

Eru could have let them in on that death isn't entirely the end.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Every time I hear about the last king of Numenor sailing off to the undying lands, I can imagine Sauron laughing at the fleet and King from his temple to Morgoth. Laughing in mockery of the foolish mortal King.

[@nightwalker8347]

The author knows mankind.

[@bryanbird1266]

Enjoy your videos Darth. Have an Arda ‘What if’ for you to consider. “What if the Noldor/Feranor had kept there heads after the theft of the Silmarils?” What would the Vala have done? Would they have left Middle Earth at the Darklord’s mercy? Or would have they come to the aid of the people of Middle Earth? It occurred to me the other day and I reckon if anyone could nut that out it would be you!

[@HeHasGiven]

So I have heard that it is entirely possible and indeed likely that Sauron had the one ring with him while he was hostage in Numenor. Is it the also possible that during this time he distributed the 9 rings? Who then is a better candidate to receive a ring, and become the eventual leader of the nine than Ar-Pharazon? I think it is a cool idea, and the only thing that makes me hesitant about it is that Ar-Pharazon supposedly dies in Valinor after his I’ll advised invasion. It seems unlikely to me that the Valar would allow a wraith to leave Valinor, or that the ring would be allowed to leave again. Regardless, it seems possible that Sauron might have begun selecting candidates to receive the rings during his time in Numenor.

[@ciaranirvine]

Given the timeline the Nazgul had already appeared as wraiths long before Ar-Pharazon was born, they were first seen as wraiths about 500 years after the War of the Elves and Sauron. Tolkien said three were Numenorean lords and it is very likely however that they were active as living Men during the reigns to Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir when we start to see the Numenoreans become cruel exploiters and the royal house beginning to fear death and speak against the Valar. The Witch-King was most likely a high noble with access to the royal court in this period, possibly even something of an uncle or mentor to Tar-Atanamir. Tolkien never said anything for certain on this matter, but roughly during the reigns of Ciryatan and Atanamir is most likely when those three received their Rings.

[@conncooney5997]

Great video, much prefer this to Rings Of Power!

[@BigSarnt]

They should've sent Glorfindel to talk to them. An elf that died and was resurrected.

[@phoule76]

Melkorism was a great album.

[@xlan8999]

Can u do video on the origins of the nazgul for mysteries of middle earth?

[@thomasalvarez6456]

One suggestion I have is: Who were the other Nazgûl? We can guess that one was of Rhun as Khamul the Easterling is the only named Nazgûl, only the Witch king has a title. Three are numenoreans and we know they’re all kings, great warriors or sorcerers. Surely records would have recorded theses men becoming wraiths, or at least their sudden disappearance. They likely make up most of the major factions of men just as how the seven were given to the seven dwarf clans and the three too. So why aren’t we given more info? This also ties into the Rings of power. Most of the original human characters could be Nazgûl, we could be seeing the origins of Khamul and the Witch King respectively.

[@Uncle_Fred]

Tolkien wrote his works 'in-universe' so we are only given information from the perspective of the writers. This means that there are lands and stories that will forever remain on the margins of his legendarium. We know that there are lands of men, elves, dwarves, and even other Numenorian settlements in other places of Middle Earth. Powerful second age men are likely origin of most of the Nazgul. Sadly, we will likely never know the origins of these men outside adapation works.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

It's an interesting topic for a video, but I would be hard pressed to find any new information outside of what is already known about the Nazgul.

[@bearwoodian8607]

@@DarthGandalfYT there is some evidence to suggest Tolkien, at least at some point, intended Tar-Atanamir to be the Witch King and perhaps that Herumor and Fuinur were also originally intended to the other two Numenorean Nazgul before he decided they lived at the end of Second Age which would contradict what he said about the origins of the Nazgul. Most of the other rings probably went to men of Rhun and Harad but it's also possible that some went to one of the Men of the White Mountains; northern Eriador where we later find the evil Hillmen; and perhaps someone in northern Rhovanion as he would have wanted to undermine the Alliance of Dwarves and Men. That is pure speculation of course.

[@epiendless1128]

Ar-Pharazôn: "Listen, don't invade Valinor. I invaded it once, but I think I got away with it."

[@TheMarcHicks]

I still say that the Valar should never have brought the Edain so close to Valinor.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

In hindsight, the Valar had a lot of bad ideas.

[@istari0]

@@DarthGandalfYT The Valar had a hard time understanding elves and an even worse one understanding men.

[@SvengelskaBlondie]

12:20 There's allot of similarities between this and falling to Chaos in Warhammer 40k (thinking of Slaanesh). It starts off very innocently, just enjoy your food and drink slightly more than before. Many steps later, you are doing such utterly depraved/vile/degererate things, you would be breaking more human rights laws than there are laws that exist (just look at how the Eldar literally murdersnusnu'd Slaanesh into existence)..

[@KorithStoneheart]

One word: pride

[@boratgollum5983]

Good one

[@NoobMaster-jh9hw]

Once great kingdom of men in the second age turn evil for there Greed and lust for immortality made them evil and cruel..

[@d0lph1n63]

The race of men were blessed with gifts from Eru that not even the Valar (except perhaps Mandos) were aware of. The hearts of the Numenoreans didn’t immediately turn to evil but suffered like Pandora did with the pithos (not box). The undying lands so tantalizingly close and yet so far, they who’d suffered so badly due to the machinations and destruction wrought by Morgoth, a race afflicted by a poison they can’t identify and look towards the west in hopes of at least treatment. A cultural incapability between men and elves and a complete lack of clear communication between men and the Valar when the Numenoreans began to voice such questions and utter lack of compassion and understanding from the Valar . Morgoth and Sauron both turned death into dreaded unknown to be feared and avoided. Instead of providing words of comfort and support, the Valar, through their messengers, spoke to man as if they were completely detached from all that was not part of Valinor (a cold comfort for a race afflicted with inner turmoil and doubts about the very meaning of their existence). Plus there was that underlying issue: fear. The Numenoreans had no doubt seen what Sauron had done to the elven nation just north of their own havens on the Grayflood and especially heard of what he done to Celebrimbor. The Numenoreans still had foresight then and they most likely foresaw a hopeless future once the last of the elves (especially the remaining Noldor) had left they’d be left to face fallen maiar’s might on their own without any assistance from either the Valar nor the elves. In PJ’s version of the 2 towers even Galadriel mentions that if Sauron won then Arda and all that dwelled there would covered in darkness until the ending of the world. That terrifying realization coupled with the knowledge that Valinor, the elves and the Valar alone would remain free of said shadow. The first born live in bliss while men suffer a fate that undeniably makes death look like a mercy! Not the kind of nice thing anyone would ever want to inherit from their partially pro-fatalist big brother! As the second born we don’t like going off blindly into the unknown without the knowledge of some kind of destination especially when it’s one that everyone else can see but for some reason can’t be bothered to tell us. And when all what we do manage to see before us is something we fear even worse than death, as the Numenoreans showed, we will do anything and everything to avoid it even if it means open defiance.

[@chris123chris82]

Does anybody know how to learn about all this stuff? I always liked the movies and now that I’m older I’d like to read the books and learn more about this massive world. I know there’s the hobbit and the 3 lord of the rings books. But what else is there? How do people make all these history videos, where do they do their research?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Outside of the the books you mentioned, the main ones are the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales. Beyond that, there are the History of Middle-earth books.

[@chris123chris82]

@@DarthGandalfYT ohhh okay. Ill start with hobbit and the 3 main books and go from there then. Thanks so much

[@doncraig6864]

Three words: Fear of Death

[@ADobbin1]

Because power corrupts, immortality is seductive and people are people.

[@gorilladisco9108]

Musk : "With Neuralink, we can transfer our consciousness into computer and live forever." Elon Musk is Sauron.

[@Cussy69_420]

Nah, Sauron was kinda smart...

[@Nikephorus]

Because like Galadriel said; "The hearts of men are easily corrupted."

[@hughjass7914]

If you lived two or three hundred years that would still seem awfully short.

[@packersamurai]

Sauron taught the Numenoreans to fear the gift of men. Case closed.

[@thor2070]

The Númenóreans first contact with Sauron marked the beginning of their downfall. That was how I saw it. Living an average lifespan of 400 years was not enough for them.

[@gorilladisco9108]

Excerpt from Netflix "Sandman" Hob Gadling : "I lost it all. My land. My gold. My Eleanor. She died in childbirth. The baby too. My boy, Robyn, died in a tavern brawl when he was 20. I didn't go out much after that. They tried to drown me as a witch. I'd lived there 40 years, overconfident. I got out with my skin a little more. And then it got worse. And worse. And worse. I've hated every second of the last 80 years, every bloody second. You know that?" Dream : "So do you still wish to live?" Hob Gadling : "Are you crazy? Death is a mug game. I got so much to live for." Now, won't that echo the sentiment of the Numenoreans?

[@nedjeljkadabo3933]

nice

[@aesir1ases64]

Any adaptation if wants to correctly portrays Numenor's downfall needs to show all the major points and events relayed in this video, Amazon decision of time compressing the 2nd age already sets up their interpretation of Numenor to fail.

[@keyboarddancers7751]

According to his son, Bezos has already pheurcked it up!

[@manuelgarcia-ve5vm]

hubris ... hubris is the doom of righteous men

[@sayagarapan1686]

I'm still puzzled over Tolkien's take on death for men in Middle-Earth given his Catholic background.

[@user-ks5cg5cd7m]

Gandalf indicates that there is life after death for men and Hobbits. I think Tolkien was saying not to fear the loss of the earth (by death) so that we become corrupted with greed and power.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@user-ks5cg5cd7m There's a widespread belief among Christians (expressed most notably in Paradise Lost) that death is a punishment for sin. I'm not sure whether it's orthodox though.

[@sageofcaledor8188]

If you read more of Tolkien's work you would see Men go beyond Arda after death. Also Eru lives beyond Arda.

[@aesir1ases64]

Reading his works I always felt that he had a good take on death, at least in his mythology, we can see that on the duality of the Gift of Illuvatar, which is at first seen as a good thing but later Morgoth corrupts this idea and instill in the hearts of men the fear of death. We can see death is a "good" thing when important and great characters simply lay down to die as they accept their time has come (like Elros and Aragorn did), or how the Valar and even the Eldar who openly talk about believing in Illuvatar's Gift for Men, when the Eldar are bound to Arda, Men will go to beyond it (possibly to rejoin Eru himsef in the Timeless Halls). So thats my interpretation from what I read, and seem to have reason within Tolkien's catholic view.

[@istari0]

The video pointed out the section in Morgoth's Ring where the Fall of Men at the hands of Morgoth is discussed. I have take that to mean that before Morgoth got his hands on Men, the true nature of the Gift of Men was well understood and appreciated by Men.

[@videocrowsnest5251]

I would suspect that the fall of the Númenóreans was almost certain to happen the moment they went to war. Sure, they did it to help their friends who were getting badly beaten by Sauron, making it really a case of them going to war for..as arguably a "good cause" as you can, but still they went to war. Which was a rather one-sided affair for them, thus they got to taste power as absolutely dominating Saurons forces. And seeing as they were the most powerful faction in the war torn Middle-Earth, it does well to remember that with us humans, power is something we really, really are not good with. It corrupts all of us eventually, should we claim any, after all, and it in essence harms our ability to make rational decisions akin to if we had a heavy drug addiction (see: Murderous despots in our world doing laughable things, but to them, it's dead serious when they claim they got a unicorn lair in their backyard, or something akin to that) by literally messing with our brains - and combining the Númenóreans getting a taste of a "Jolly good fun little war", plus the intoxicating madness that is power, really built for them a slide they fell down headfirst. I would say that a good rule of thumb is being careful with power. It's not good for ya. Nor anyone else for that matter. There is a reason power is best in the hands of those who do not seek it, nor want any, as well as certainly do not want to use it, because they are far slower to corrupt than those who go out looking for it, seek it, or try to accumulate as much as they possibly can. If you are going to do something, like say, go help your friends being sieged by an angry immortal spirit with an obsession with order and a dark lord complex, just do it cause you wanna help your friends, and when you and your goonsquad stop the dark lord's army, be sure to stick to grieving the dead, and helping rebuilt in humility, rather than basking in the glory of crushing thy foes and at the same time getting any funny ideas about a colonial empire of oppression.

[@zackf3688]

They should have married Elves and given their children the choice. I guess it's not that easy to impress Elf maidens.

[@flyboy152]

Only Elrond’s children were given the choice of which kindred they wanted to belong to, because of his specific lineage. There is no indication that any other half-elven children (had there been any) would have that choice.

[@Abstracto1412]

they made deal with the devil

[@nHautamaki]

This is why I find GRRM's criticism of Tolkien so disingenuous. He said he wanted to tell the story of what happens AFTER the great war, and how merely killing the big bad doesn't usher in endless paradise as the mundane problems of human nature continue to rear their ugly heads. Of course, Tolkien already told that story, brilliantly, with his writings on the second age. The second age is indeed the mundane fears and ambitions of men bringing them down even in the aftermath of the total destruction of the dark lord, Morgoth, and the elimination of most of his servants and the scattering of the rest.

[@davepowder4020]

Sometimes, people forget their important principles. Numenoreans turning evil and Mormon missionaries drinking Coca Cola!

[@MewnBoi]

Cause, annatar

[@cerberus6654]

I've always thought of the Valar as a kind of 1970's hippie community. Not doing very much other than getting stoned on 'the Music of Iluvatar' most of the time. Making immature and impractical decisions as everything gets progressively messier around them and then when it reaches the boiling point, they throw up their hands and say "Oh shit, we better call Eru!". And what did kind, loving Eru do in this case? He laid waste to it all! Innocent Elves, blameless Dwarfs, Ents not even remotely involved - all, swept away. Leaving Sauron, the root cause of it... alive! Eru the Great. The Wise. The Compassionate. Shit, Stalin had more patience with humanity than Eru.

[@cedricthomas4867]

Sauron as a houseguest / “prisoner” can have the affect on your country……….

[@ConformingToEmptiness]

Evil? You mean turned towards the darkness which was indeed powerful/worshipful as well good.

[@hannotn]

I know you don't delve into Tolkien for hard edged realism, but I find his writing on the Numeroreans is where his religious views take precedence over writing remotely believable human beings. I just read The "Fall of Numenor" after having read the Akallabeth many times over the decades since it was published, and the Numenoreans just aren't human beings as I know them, or can believe in them. They're just too damn wholesome when they first move to Numenor. This obviously mirrors Tolkien's view of the perfect society, with them living the life of the landed gentry and studying lore, rather than having a normal life (oh and of course the peasants would have been jolly and agreeable and not had seditious thoughts like forming labour unions or a socialist party). He writes them like they're all sexless Ken dolls. It's not Das Kapital, but it's all so puritanical and anodyne and classist, and the fact that there's no in depth characterisation, means it's all kinda meh, to me, anyway.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I absolutely get what you mean about them coming across as too wholesome, but I definitely think it's a bit darker beyond the surface. For example, Erendis' rant about how Numenorean men basically treat women as playthings, which ends up causing Tar-Ancalime to treat her own granddaughters like crap. And then there's the Numenorean treatment of the Gwathuirim, long before they became evil. I think the early Numenoreans are written to come across as noble, and in many cases they are, but they still had problems in their society, and they could still treat others poorly. It just gets glossed over because it doesn't compare to how far they eventually ended up falling.

[@scibanana3542]

All it took was the numenoreans having a several thousand year long existential crisis. That, and the Arda equivalent of corporate greed

[@wileecoyote796]

They didn't like Mondays.

[@deejayxcrypt]

The title: For acting like all humans do. Greed.

[@John-tc9gp]

Atlantis got rekt

[@sektionobc9485]

Becaus of Sauron the great

[@Lex_B1488]

gawn

[@ptptpt123]

It is inspired by Atlantis. Which was totally real, as sunken large Azores plateau is proven now, by presence of ancient beaches underwater and plant material from that same time. Exactly where Plato described Atlantis location. Atlantis in Atlantic. For more, look up Randall Carlson Atlantis.

[@classiclife7204]

Evil is easy.

[@EvilRussianVladimir]

Ответ прост как никогда - они зажрались

[@mojojojo218]

Jealousy

[@filipkiseloski]

If you ask amazon, they will tell because they were straight and white...

[@j84martinez44]

LOL

[@Cussy69_420]

Oh my God, ever time I read one of these comments, my believe that brain aids seems to be real becomes stronger... You people are truly sick

[@filipkiseloski]

@@Cussy69_420 then you can stop reading them and kindly fuck off.

[@worldtraveler930]

The question is why did they turn Evil I can answer that question with a Single word that word is "Sheeple"!!! 🤠👍

[@Andrew3455]

Numenor equal US? Sleeping giant? Now corrupted. Lol🤔🤔

[@Andrew3455]

Before everyone comments I do recognize that I believe Tolkien meant that it was like Atlantis

[@hglundahl]

13:31 don't invade Valinor ... or Ukraine

[@qcop4921]

Wokeness and Karen Galadriel.

[@EdwardSnortin]

The Numenoreans already being in decline when Sauron shows up is such a great parallel to Trump and America in 2016

[@vasp99]

The Numenoreans were treated like cattle by the powers of Arda . They alone were subject to aging and death and were never told why . OF COURSE they rejected the pompous immortal aholes who kept them caged on one island .

[@patrickbrisson4651]

Nice. But you lost me staring at a video game character while you were speaking. Love your channel !