When did Saruman become evil?

[@apstrike]

Per Unfinished Tales, Sauruman finds Isildur's remains between 2851 and 2939. He quietly disposes of the body and doesn't tell anyone. That's an evil act.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Good point. I forgot about that. I guess he doesn't tell anyone because then he would have to explain how he came across the body.

[@apstrike]

@@DarthGandalfYT But Elrond, I was just walking alonside the river minding my own business and look what I found. Didn't wanna mention it cuz you're fostering his grandson 26 times removed and that would have hurt his feelings.

[@zefft.f4010]

*bones. Probably wouldn't be much of a body left. But yes. His remains should have been returned to Gondor or perhaps sent to Rivendell.

[@flyboy152]

2800 years later? I doubt there would even be bones left. I guess he might be able to identify the remains because of his armor because DNA testing back then was a bit iffy. 😂

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

Tell me...friend...When did Saruman the Wise abandon reason for madness?!

[@Spacegoat92]

Beat me by 13 hours....

[@MasterTangerines]

I never realized the wizard pondering his orb meme was Saruman with the palantir.

[@gagaplex]

Nicely summarised. I believe Tolkien wanted to show how Saruman's personal flaws and selfishness led to evil gradually. Like you said, you can draw a line if you want - at breeding orcs, for instance. But he was already on the path to evil for years before that, perhaps even before arriving in Middle-earth, considering his annoyance at his compatriots before they even left the West.

[@lars9925]

The honest answer is: We don't know, because we don't really know all his motives. Evil starts with the willingness to do harm. Not with just the consideration nor with the act itself, but in the exact moment when someone concludes the consideration to do evil with an internal "yes".

[@sageofcaledor8188]

I think you hit it on the nose almost exactly. Not much to say except for a wonderful video. Also, Saruman is an excellent example of how talented Tolkien was. I mean he developed a great character on the fly! That is skill!

[@neilscotter5191]

At 9:33 you say when Gandalf arrived at Isengard it still looked the same. It night have done in the film but in the book it has already begun to be transformed. "They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars. There is no descent save by a narrow stair of many thousand steps, and the valley below seems far away. I looked on it and saw that, whereas it had once been green and fair, it was now filled with pits and forges."

[@vasari9198]

Remember that Saruman would never think that he’s evil. He believes that he knows better than everyone else.

[@jackolantern147]

What if Saruman never betrayed Sauron and became his true right hand? His power growing under Saurons influence and gaining the aid of the lord of the rings, could he have become the 3rd dark lord?

[@sayagarapan1686]

That's too big a stretch because if his real core loyalty was to Sauron he never would have concealed knowledge of the Ring to begin with and the story would be over before the Argonath as Sauron's forces would have joined Saruman's and seized the Ring from the Fellowship and Sauron will have learned the purpose to destroy it from him, not take it to Minas Tirith as he believed, regardless. Questions like this can be avoided if we think it through a little more.

[@DirtySouthJR]

Absolutely. Intriguing thought. He could have absolutely been to Sauron what the 2nd Dark Lord himself was to Morgoth. Continuing his legacy of seeking total dominion.

[@DirtySouthJR]

@@sayagarapan1686 What are you on about? Not only is what you said actually more of a stretch than the OP, seeing as you responded as if you didn't even understand the initial question missing the point entirely, but comments like this aren't meant to be avoided anyway. The entire reason is to speculate and share opinions about the lore you enjoy. He isn't asking a math or history question.

[@WedrawYT]

@@sayagarapan1686 you could have said all of that without being an asshole

[@heresjohnny4836]

differance between them being that sauron was loyal to melkor/morgoth and became the dark lord when morgoth was defeated and thrown into the void, saruman doesnt give a shit about being a servent. now what if saruman had gotten wise and went seeking an alliance with smaug?

[@paulemge9156]

Good video as usual, I’m rewatching all of Darth Gandalf videos and making sure they get a thumbs up and comment.

[@sayagarapan1686]

Another interesting topic and a we'll done video. I believe he was ripe for evil before leaving Valinor. Pride and hubris, self-importance and self-promotion, disdain for those he perceived as weaker, jealousy for those he considered equal or better, lust for power and aggrandizement, these were part of his character even when he was a so called good guy. It required only the weakening of his divine restraints as a full fledged Maia to topple him when he was dumbed down and put into a human form. In other words I think he was already inclined towards the attributes that foster evil. His will not to act on it left him with his transformation from full divinity into a man. Sauron didn't need to help at all, he merely caught Saruman with his pants down. Bear in mind I do not equate inclination towards evil with being evil, although I firmly believe evil begins with a thought and not an act. I just believe Saruman was prone to evil in a way other Maia were not, and required only the afore mentioned removal of restraint for inclination to become a thought and thought to become deeds.

[@thepriorstone4064]

“Being a dick doesn’t really make one evil” idk why but that caught me so off guard damn near spat my drink out

[@THOMAS-xw2sc]

Love watching your videos to wind down and relax.

[@michalalibaba263]

Can we have a video about mysteries of the first age?

[@videocrowsnest5251]

I'm pretty sure the point of evil is by the very least the part where Saruman starts trying to mass produce an army for himself using Orcs. Cause several points wrong with that already. For one who thinks different, and even if you may not think much of causing Orcs suffering, then you also had the point where he began using Humans in this foul army production scheme. This is the definitive point of becoming evil, for one chief reason. Because to put it politely: I doubt consent was ever something Saruman checked, which is...a caliber of evil that really can't be just skipped over.

[@uglukthemedicineman5933]

just like the bolsheviks and the homo-sovjeticus mixed race plans for Europe.

[@sionsidhe9]

I tend to doubt he would bother breeding his new orcs through traditional means, it would take far too long, and really he’d have no use for an infant, and wouldn’t want to wait for it to mature. I think the breeding process the film showed, where it was a mix of magic and dark practices that allowed the Uruk Hai to be pulled from what appeared to be a birthing sack fully grown and ready for battle would be the only really viable option to create a large army in a short time. Also, any other way really is just way too disturbing to think about.

[@nicholasmorgan7609]

Tolkien said orcs, twisted as they are, were not born evil and were capable of choosing good, so causing them suffering could be considered evil, if mass producing them caused them any suffering.

[@marieroberts5458]

@@sionsidhe9 I think that you would not need to use magical breeding pits when you are talking orcs...the multiplied after the manner of the Children of Eru, BUT can do something along the lines of speeding the process along, and it is very likely under the original concept of the rootstock of the orcs, there was some ability to breed and grow very quickly, like say, Jem' Hadar...2 weeks for an adolescent, a year for a fully grown adult. And we are talking several centuries...time enough for even slower growing humans to become a large army.

[@thestraightroad305]

There were some great nuggets here! Cheers!!

[@phoule76]

How many orcs must one breed before being considered really evil, though? I'm asking for a friend.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Gondorian Common Law says at least four.

[@elliotcrossan6290]

I would say that Saruman delaying attacking Sauron was an evil act

[@iamseamusw]

I think tolkein displays perfectly Sarumans' desire to "outfox" Sauron when he holds back information from the council, i think it is a duality to his want for power, yet becomes more and more akin to his enemy- rather like an undercover cop falling to criminality...

[@justthinkingoutloud2538]

Love your videos, they’re some of the most unique in the TolkienTube community. Hope to see it grow much, much further!

[@justthinkingoutloud2538]

Power is addictive, and seeking after it for even good ends can lead to one gradually forgetting that end and becoming obsessed with power for its own sake. It’s also interesting to note that apprentices of Aule the smith have a tendency to turn to evil, as those who take joy in building and creating can be susceptible to the allure of the power to create greater works and build a world in their image.

[@xaviermontesdeoca2440]

Have you consider making a video about the Dunlendings?

[@DC-hy2rg]

This was so thoughtful and well written. Suscribed! And thank you for reminding us to speak to any friend who shows signs of turning before they start breeding their own orc army.

[@specialnewb9821]

Since Melkor's first opposition to Eru was his own thoughts (his desire for independent creation) I'd say "thought."

[@gabrieldjatienza6971]

I am actually glad that the Hobbit movies portrayed Ragadast as Gandalf's reliable war buddy.

[@hugowikstr]

Can you do a video on if the orcs were irredeemable?

[@anthonymartell9880]

Saruman might have been able to redeem himself up until he learned that the Necromancer was Sauron at which point of course he delayed the attack on Dol Goldur. I say that because once he started speaking to delay the White Council, he committed himself to the goal of possessing the One Ring, a temptation that was just a thought process up to that point. He was willing to allow Sauron a chance to become strong again so that he could have a chance at getting the Ring which of course is putting his own interests over LITERALLY EVERYTHING ELSE.

[@Majora1988]

The lesson here is that great evil could have been avoided if the White Council had just asked Saruman, "Hey Bro, you've been acting odd lately, let's talk man, what's the matter?"

[@feanorra8785]

When you going to make video ,,Peoples of Gondor and Rohan" like other regions?

[@Afrojackfan]

love the LOTRO music in your vids

[@Crafty_Spirit]

It's pure speculation, but I would not be surprised if Saruman found a liking for manipulating people when he spent time in Rhûn. The last possible date I would set for Saruman chosing the path of evil deliberately would be T.A. 2851, he objects Gandalf's proposed attack on Dol Guldur and concentrates on finding the one Ring for himself. That decision is a defiance of his divine mission, which is clearly a sign of evil in the legendarium.

[@victoriakidd-cromis1124]

I think Saruman is a narcissist. Almost everything he does is for his own benefit. He hides his true intentions from Gandalf and Galadriel. She is suspicious about his intentions but he hasn't done anything to make her publicly suspicious. It is her innate intuition. It is a feeling: he gives her the creeps but she can' tell anyone WHY. He just does. Remember that his voice can put a spell on you. If I met someone like him the hair ono he back of my neck would stand up and I'd get away from him as soon as possible.

[@FreedomAndPeaceOnly]

I think Saruman turned to evil only because of one thing only. 👿And that was the moment when _"the Council"_ confronted Sauron aka 'the Necromancer'. Being one of the chosen one's, a Maiar, was all about knowing *WHO* he was, that he was the most powerful of those who have become _"a Wizard"._ 🧙 And from that moment he chose his identity and it was set in stone for himself. He was the strongest human shaped Maiar and *POWER* was his identity! That one moment where he confronted Sauron along Elrond & Galadriel and was unable to overpower him, his entire confidence was shattered and he corrupted himself from thereone after. That was his downfall. Seeing that he was inferior in power to Sauron while being technically on the same level as him. It broke all of his confidence and pride for which he identified with. 😱 Forget Radagast or Gandalf even. One he never deemed himself inferior to and the other one he was jealous towards for so a multitude of reasons. But ultimately Saruman believed only in power the moment one was manifested and losing to Sauron, who was merely clinging to life as a shadow too at that time, just completely demoralized him and made him think it was hopeless to defy him. 😞 His vision - similar to that of absolutely clueless, mere Mortals - was set that of superstitious pessimism from that point onwards. He gave up when he did not needed to and served an enemy far weaker than what he imagined him to be - dying with him in the process cause Sauron was in the end, just that pathetic of a weakling who was already on deaths door for centurys at that point. Hilarious if you think about it. 🤣 It happens all the time. People being weak, cynical & dystopian. When the true enemy is actually so fragile you could almost kill them by blowing at them. 🙂 A pity Saruman was that foolish. So close the ultimate end of Sauron was, who was really just a toddler compared to Morgoth.

[@heresjohnny4836]

i still believe that since they were all maiar originally that sauron and saruman may have been friends before middle earth

[@joechang8696]

Saruman both attempted to learn ring art, and searched for the one ring itself. Recall saruman found the Elendilmir that isildur wore, and possibly the isildurs remains, and the gold chain that isildur used to secure the ring

[@ledanoir1239]

He also has a +5 in persuasion due to his magic voice and wit

[@tylernye2293]

When Gandalf smoked the last bit of old toby 😂

[@hueylongdong900]

6:55 please define the purposes of orcs besides ulterior motives

[@Anudorini-Talah]

He became evil when Mr. Lee said so! Period!

[@katsomeday1]

In a way, while Sauruman was defiantly a baddy in the LotR and was corrupted by Sauron, I don't think he was ever truly working for Sauron. Actions like attacking Rohan, while Sauron found useful, were mainly for Sauruman's own benefit. Actions like deceiving Sauron about his knowledge of the location of the Shire really points to Sauruman being his own agent. Sauraman seemed more to be in an alliance of convenience with Sauron. Kind of similarly to how Sauron worked with, but did not control Shelob.

[@jrr7031]

What about that quote he made about the Orcs, while talking to the Uruk-hai? Are those the half men/half-orc?

[@scibanana3542]

"Wait he's evil?" "Always has been."

[@asteroidalassassin6949]

Saruman could've easily played as a double agent to oppose Sauron but chose not to

[@shanenolan8252]

Cheers

[@ciaranirvine]

28 years doesn't seem anywhere near long enough for a breeding program to raise an army of 10,000 Uruk-Hai. As @My.Channel.0123 points out it was long before this that he disposed of Isildur's body (between 2851 and 2939). At the early end of this would mean 167 years of cross-breeding orcs and half-orcs, which just makes more sense. There's nothing to suggest orcs mature much faster than Men - so 28 years would only be enough time to raise two generations, nowhere near enough to perfect an entire new sub-species. In my head-canon Saruman was already planning to go bad the moment he started lobbying to get control of Orthanc and his secret men-orc breeding experiments began almost immediately way back then - 250 years before the War of the Ring The official timeline doesn't really make sense - understandably enough as I doubt the good Professor gave much thought to the breeding cycle of orcs!

[@DarthGandalfYT]

You have to remember that Saruman didn't invent the Uruk-hai. They were already present in Mordor and the Misty Mountains long before Saruman started breeding them. And not all of Saruman's soldiers were Uruk-hai.

[@hanscarlsson6583]

Would have been an interesting what-if if Saruman had obtained the One Ring before being dominated by Sauron. I wonder what would have happened then? I guess a new evil overlord Saruman would have emerged, but could have been anninteresting story.

[@henrypaul8823]

A more precise question would be when did Saruman ally himself with Sauron?

[@Fintanflaherty]

When he uses the palantir. Boom. About 10 seconds

[@Cat_Woods]

When did Saruman learn that Gandalf had one of the elven rings? I also never really got what Saruman was studying for so long about the rings. One can say everything there is to know about them in a few paragraphs, and most of that wasn't available for Saruman to know. So he figured the one ring fell into the Anduin and may have made it to Gladden Fields... that required reading one account of one event. Hardly worth centuries of "study" to find out.

[@magister343]

Sarumon studies enough of ring lore to be able to craft a ring of power for himself. He did not just know the info that Tolkien included in the books. He knew the mechanics of how the magic worked and how to reproduce them. Creating a ring to rival The One may have still been far beyond his skill, but the ring he wore may have been on par with those made by Celebrimbor.

[@bluishflamedbz3815]

small detail added thou,... after confronting Sauron at Dol Guldur in TA2951 (Sauron Banished to Mordor) - in The hobbit movie. Saruman said it himself "Leave Sauron to me" with like a sarcastic smile. might be some possible signs about Saruman turning evil or a piece of betrayal. from that point on --> 60 years later The One Ring was found. In 60 years lots could have happend right...

[@maximus3160]

2941. 10 years later, in 2951, Sauron openly declared himself in Mordor.

[@darrylmasters5032]

When did Saruman declare himself "Saruman of many colours!" ? Where Gandalf states "he prefers white..." and Saruman says "The white light can be broken, the white cloth dyed ......" that must of been the real 1st time Gandalf knew in his heart he'd turned?

[@majorhatchback]

Lol, I got an ad that that just screamed “Nerd” at me.

[@edwardjamesjr1]

😂 Targetted ads in a way I never anticipated!

[@Kissamies1]

I still wonder how he managed to keep 10000 orcs/uruk-hai secret.

[@theo-dr2dz]

Even at the very last moment, when Saruman has walked the walk of evil to the bitter end, when his armies are no more, his fortress is destroyed, he is a prisoner in Orthanc, he has even lost his palantir, and nothing remains, even at that point Gandalf gives him a chance to repent. That might well be the most Christian moment in the book.

[@SCHMALLZZZ]

Saruman never turned evil, he just wanted to use the ring to oppose Sauron.

[@southtexasdeath]

Saruman, killed one blue wizard, the other blue wizard is the Witch King

[@Armageddon2077]

When did Saruman turn evil? Saturday Afternoon About Tea-Time

[@samdegoeij6576]

Would it be a stretch to say that Aule's students panned out poorly? With both Sauron and Saruman (if I remember correctly Cururin was his original name) being swayed to Melkorism? Kind of sad.

[@magister343]

You mean "Curunír?" That is the Sindarin form of his name, which was used by all the Elves in Middle Earth since Thingol banned the use of Quenya in his realm. In Quenya, which would have been used in Valinor, the equivalent is Curumo. Saruman is actually a "mannish" translation from Old English roots. Those all mean "Man of Skill" or "Cunning One." Chronologically in universe, the first name he is known to have used was Tarindor, which was Quenya for "Wise One" or more literally "High Minded One." The orcs came to know his as Sharku, meaning "old man" in the Black Speech of Mordor, which turned into Sharkey by the time he conquered the Shire.

[@markaguilera493]

Any old grumpy single old man with no children nor grand children or pet is likely to turn to evil if anything out of boredom.

[@paulsager2097]

Saruman was jealous of Gandalf from day 1, evil was in his heart from the beginning.

[@CharlesOffdensen]

Saruman could have stayed with the "good" guys and just win. Or he could have stayed with Sauron and both would have easily won. But he doesn't share victory. That is the core of his motivation. I think it's an ego think - he think he is so smart, he can win against the world alone. The chances were very slim. And if he had chosen a side, the chances of him winning are close to 100%. But he thinks he deserves to win this game of thrones alone. So Saruman is not that evil, I don't think he ever cared about ruling the world. He just wanted to outsmart everyone else. He was evil, just because he was ready to do absolutely everything to win. Gandalf knew that Saruman wanted the ring, but he was surprised, that Saruman was allied to Sauron. Gandalf couldn't believe this. Because it wasn't true. Saruman played for himself.

[@vandaahll]

I always assumed the palantir corrupted him.

[@viriatus7181]

Not so much as corrupting him, but a connective bond was created between Sauron and him - one that lured him to false promises of power if he so chooses to join with the Dark Lord. He meddled with the Palantir for years before this ever happened I'm guessing.

[@mooviedude141]

I always thought orcs were corrupted Hobbits and uruk hai were corrupted elves.

[@osmanshah5046]

I’m pretty sure he was evil before he started his orc army. He probably was allied with Sauron already at this point. Where else would he learn how to do it? This was something only morgoth and Sauron knew how to do

[@-JazzHands-]

Orcs breed in the same manner as elves or men. Saruman didn't need any secret knowledge. All he would need to do is gather them under his employ and provide them with human stock for his experiments.

[@michaelsmyth3935]

The very next time I feel a Nectomancer is really a minor deity......

[@alanmike6883]

I just wonder how the valar got it so wrong in their selection....

[@DarthGandalfYT]

The Valar got a lot of things wrong. They meant well, but they weren't all-powerful and all-seeing.

[@alanmike6883]

@@DarthGandalfYT Just Saruman was jealous of Gandalf before they set sail. Not a good omen 😁👍

[@romaliop]

They were instrument's of Eru Iluvatar's will. So they didn't get it wrong, it was meant to be.

[@alanmike6883]

@@romaliop Its just no hate towards aule but all both his Mair students turned out evil 😂👍

[@toddfeather5760]

Saruman was jealous of Gandalf way before coming to middle earth and jealous of for lots of other reasons and that started the journey towards evil and he was a great addition by Tolkien himself but I agree he was turning slower than the ring wraith did when they accepted their rings of power and you excited for the Amazon show?

[@WhoIsCalli]

Great vid. Definitely when Saruman started breeding orcs. For me that was the point of no return

[@Larzang]

I had to do a double take on this. Because 10th of July is the day I was born...

[@gm2407]

Saruman is one who thinks it is better to rule in hell then serve in heaven.

[@His_Name_Was_King]

Another good example of why we humans are not allowed to live on this earth to long. We would have no chance of being saved living on this evil planet for too long....🤔

[@joevines3428]

Saruman literally did nothing wrong.

[@YounesZoutat]

Gandalf the white…. Gandalf the fool.

[@vasp99]

The sad fact about the Tolkien mythos is that everything that occurs is preordained by the creator/sadist Illuvatar . There is no free will in arda only dominos falling the way the vicious petty mean spirited creator decided they would fall . All the suffering is " god's " will and there are no villains or heroes only puppets suffering and dying according to that monster's whim . Melkor would be the hero of the tale since the monster Illuvatar decided to let him in on the joke . But even Melkor is the hapless slave of the sadist who created everything .

[@AJ0223]

No hate man but I have to marvel at a Tolkien scholar and enthusiast analyzing his work on the premise that morality is so subjective and by default meaningless lol a little too much Game of Thrones and House of the dragon lately or what

[@DonnieThorson]

aUGUST 23,1939

[@BobBob-kr5wr]

I feel it could be an age thing. Living 2000+ years can take a severe toll on someone, even a wizard.

[@danielbennett2405]

That's just how long he was in middle earth, not his age.

[@BobBob-kr5wr]

@@danielbennett2405 I know he is much older than that, my point is living a super long time can wear on a person.