Datto's State of the Sandbox 2020 - Pre-Beyond Light

[@dagoxo7arius]

Congrats on the marriage Datto (and Danielle), hopefully the actual wedding party won't need to be delayed again

[@Kaiju_jo]

For destiny

[@re11ek]

WAIT WHAT

[@casualsatanist5808]

i wonder if danielle will get a rare blue quality ring...

[@halberd-3291]

That’s amazing. So happy for them.

[@thekilingjokee]

@@casualsatanist5808 na mate... the leviathan raid ring....

[@SunSun-sk4si]

"The entire tree is based around Heat Rises" _meanwhile me who only uses it for icarus and celestial fire_

[@abutterynoodle9347]

Icarus dash is a game changer

[@fracmusic8095]

Same here, Warlocks finally have a competetive subclass with a high skill celling, and now everyone else is crying, even if spectral, bottom tree striker are still better for bad players.

[@Mrdood999]

@@fracmusic8095 They need to make it so you can't be in the air 90% of a crucible game. Other than that it's fine.

[@aguywith5names362]

Same here bud, same here

[@verytallowl2022]

I just love it for PvE Sunbracers and icarus

[@mcdonkey6851]

Destiny 2 sandbox is less of a sandbox and more like the beach on d day

[@evidant]

why is this true

[@God.Revenant]

@@evidant Cause, casuals

[@casualsatanist5808]

remember in ttk when we didnt get a sandbox update for about 300 days? cuz i sure fuckin do...

[@poggersquirrel583]

The release of mountaintop was fuckin pearl harbor

[@God.Revenant]

@@poggersquirrel583 wym I got it and it's not a problem. Problem is when you can't counter it right

[@mutantraze3681]

“What does a rocket launcher do?” *Bad damage*

[@Spike2276]

They deal damage? I thought they had been updated to heal bosses

[@jesuschrist7833]

@@Spike2276 yours heals? Well fuck mine just keeps respawning bosses

[@warcriment7298]

@@jesuschrist7833 yours respawn bosses? mine restarts the entire raid

[@tenacity25]

looks cool while tickling the bosses with a feather

[@buyUSA9808]

They could at least make them 1-shot max resilience roaming supers in crucible, maybe Truth being the exception. Hell, breachloaded GLs with spike nades will almost kill one, why not rockets?

[@theeleothakilla3812]

"Snipers got nerfed last year" "Scouts are primary sniper rifles" Scout nerf confirmed.

[@Aati_Gumer]

Me and my Traveler's Chosen are ready to spam Stasis abilities

[@OGPOLSKAMAFIA]

Yessir

[@mephilees7866]

Plot twist: "Bungie: Traveler's Chosen now requires 10 stacks for full grenade recharge" With new sandbox changes :P

[@thrilla72]

Plot twist, Traveler's chosen may not work with Stasis as it is powered by the Darkness.

[@OGPOLSKAMAFIA]

@@thrilla72 stasis is darkness?

[@sneaklone_]

@@OGPOLSKAMAFIA powered by it, it’s like solar, arc or void being powered by light

[@Forcer69]

All I know is that no matter what we want changed I can see scouts and fusions getting another nerf for existing

[@octapodes1132]

Fusion rifles deserve nothing.

[@jonathanmcgee9574]

I’m done

[@Menace7837-c4j]

they're gonna try nerfing telesto but then you know

[@fareflight2029]

Fusion rifles are annoying as hell to play against when they have ridiculous range like Erantial did. I also never want scouts to be buffed greatly because then most pvp will just become everyone sitting in the back of the map with OP scouts plinking you to death from a mile away. When scouts are really good they are a pretty mindless gun. Buff both in PVE though we know bungie has trouble doing that.

[@trashboat8334]

Fusion rifles deserve it like erentil and bastion

[@tigerstorm6622]

"Jotunn is a meme." *Straightens bow tie.* Now listen here...

[@cyberbemon]

I just finished the Jotunn quest, got tired of getting nuked by that in PvP.

[@djr3385]

Jotuun is a gun that is used by garbage players who need something to aim for them, no other reason for it in the game and I stand by that. That is all

[@user-dc9xh2os6h]

@@djr3385 well it’s fun to use it I use it sometimes cause it’s fun. Mountaintop is worse thoguh

[@MyWaifuNow]

@@djr3385 they nerfed the shit out of the tracking, its not very strong now

[@razor5694]

Haha

[@kyle3637]

5:33 Datto: "22 mountain top shots btw" Jesus christ

[@ProtoMario]

Currently - Gnawing Hunger Snipers Mountain Top Ace of Spades Keyboard sales are up because of how much sweat is dripping from the PVP players onto theirs, requiring a weekly purchase. All the people commenting about Ace not realizing the follow up with Snipers for range smh.

[@Mothglow]

What the proto Mario plays destiny?!

[@anosvoldigoad3021]

Ace? What about shotguns

[@joshsmith8715]

Gnawing hunger isn’t that much of a problem, if you’re gonna say that, say 600 rpms cause gnawing hunger isn’t as good as summoner

[@joshsmith8715]

@@itsliam2113 I’m not saying it’s not unfair, I’m just saying 600 rpms are a problem in general, I realized it’s worded like I don’t think it’s a problem (cause I think it is), but just saying gnawing hunger isn’t enough, it’s the whole archetype cause like I said summoner is better than gnawing but 600s are above everything else in general

[@thatblast]

You're like another Justin Y or LittleKingRyan

[@Silvermud21]

I understand your points on dawnblade, but it worries me because warlocks don’t have a legitimate other option. Top tree stormcaller is good but voidwalker offers very little. So without dawnblade, competitive warlocks would be funneled into 1 tree of 1 subclass to be effective. When compared to hunters and titans, only having one option is abysmal. In other words, either keep dawnblade the same, or nerf it but buff other warlock subclasses as well.

[@sebastianturner2458]

Yeah, as a Hunter main I'd love a nerf to dawnblade's eternal float (how am I supposed to kill him? I can't see his head cause of the angle, so no sniping, he's high enough up that The Last Word is shooting marshmallows, so no dice there, and he always sees me before I see him. And that's not even getting started on the crazy positioning in super. He kills me in one shot, I need two, and he's completely out of my field of view 90% of the time if I'm paying any attention at all to the rest of the match), but bottom tree void and arc, middle tree arc, and top tree void could 100% use some love (sorry nova warp fans, but I still have my trauma from forsaken's release and I never want that back again). On Titans, I want sentinel's shield throw dead, but that's a personal grudge (golden gun should not be one shot by that. nonsense. i want my super back.), and sentinel's neutral could maybe use a little love. Sunbreaker... Sunbreaker needs something. Everywhere. PvP, PvE, all of it. When did anyone last see a sunbreaker? And Thundercrash irks me, but I'm fine with it overall. And as a Hunter... Can golden gun have a little damage resistance? Just a little? I know it can kill really fast but it's just so squishy to everything and dying in super makes me sad. I wish they would revert every change ever made to spectral blades, I loved it at launch and now it's lame. Yeah, the hit detection and super sucked, but it was more fun! And the Neutral game was better! Finally, arcstrider feels like the oldest class by far. Incredibly basic and boring design. Top tree is literally one repeatable combo and a random super trait. Bottom tree is a grab bag of random neutral game buffs. Middle tree has a janky melee, a kind of interesting super change, and two weird perks that no one ever uses or cares about. They work, but man, they're just so boring compared to most other classes.

[@majorqueue1676]

That's the thing I'm worried about the most. I'm normally on board with Datto's sandbox updates, but I'm concerned that top-tree Dawnblade might get nerfed without offering another option. Icarus Dash is a literal game-changer in PvP, and Celestial Fire has been a great vertical competitor against smoke. Top tree Stormcaller is pretty good, but it lacks mobility outside of the super, and Voidwalker is only ever used for its grenades. Datto may be convinced that Destiny isn't a game about *speed*, and that might be true, but it 100% is a game that rewards *mobility* in PvP... and though hunters have mobility in spades, Warlocks don't... except for top tree Dawnblade. I'm also disappointed that he played snipes off as "not an issue". Even on console, they're *always* the best option for anyone who can use them effectively. They do double duty as slug shotguns, can kill across the map, and can flinch into headshots. If they're nerfed--especially if Bungie changes zoom level across the board--Arbalest will quickly become the next Revoker, and he didn't even mention Arbalest.

[@dylangross3702]

I do thing Warlocks need the most work as far as subclasses go. Like just tuning down Top Dawn a bit, like 1 dash, melee recharge only on ability kills, lower the damage on the melee ability or make the cool down FAR longer. Then yes oof some other subclasses up because Dawn is the ONLY reason to play Warlock in PvP.

[@AleXand4life]

@@majorqueue1676 He doesnt play in an mmr where sniping is that big a deal. Id rather go against more mountaintop users than feel like having to bring out my low zoom snapshot sniper or resort to speeding across the map with a bastion/fr

[@Potatomato12]

@@sebastianturner2458 On console if anything hunters need nerfs. They are oppressive AF with their easy movement and good in air accuracy. I think they need to look especially middle tree arc and spectral. I think at high ranks 8/10 of my games its 5 hunters and 1 warlock (me). Wouldn't mind a Gunslinger buff in some way. Plus this is just a personal hatred but hunters have the most crutch exotics on the planet with GJ and Stompees. I agree though that other subclasses for warlock need some love and top tree needs a touch of a nerf. IMO Titans are fine as they are apart from the middle tree dunemarcher combo.

[@connormchugh7605]

As Jez said regarding mountaintop in one of his recent videos: "Are you on the ground? Consider not being on the ground!" Edit: I am not endorsing the use of mountaintop or defending those that do use it. The comment is a quote that Jez made in his video with the intention as a joke Bungie could delete mountaintop tomorrow and I would celebrate it as a holiday. The game is so much better off without it.

[@Kimihro]

Yes, if only there were character classes who had access to certain advantages or powers by being on the ground

[@Churro_EYT]

What about if your in the air?

[@PawDieFur]

Issue with that, if your in the air you will get snipered, bowed, scout, pulse, or hc. Not to mention other weapons like sidarms, autos and subs. So your best is to just leave how to play around the "ik going to hit your feet" mt user. For example: if your playstyle is up close, learn to play far. If it is far range, keep your distance. Etc etc. Don't get me wrong, mt dose need to go, but it's just other pointers

[@connormchugh7605]

@@PawDieFur dude I was making a bit of a joke. No need to go too into it

[@anannoyedpanda]

Wise words from the Jez the titan slayer, slayer of all titans.

[@angrykook1]

Honestly, I don't see the point of nerfing top tree in PVE. What's the difference between killing trash mobs with grenades and melee rather than using a gun. It's not like it's problematic in end-game content like Well of Radiance was. I'd rather have them add some power fantasy to the other classes than nerf the ones that make you feel awesome (In PVE)

[@peytonsnyder2421]

Yeah but we don't want too much power fantasy either. The difference between killing trash mobs with solar grenades and celestial fire rather than a gun is that they are still way more efficient and infinite. They don't need a big nerf, but maybe some slight tweaking.

[@eggplant8214]

@@peytonsnyder2421 nothing needs tweaking about it though. in the clip that was him using sunbracers. Sunbracers are one of the most niche exotics in the game. no one in their right mind would actually use them over any other warlock exotic, even if you get to spam a bunch of solar grenades on enemies. everything else about top tree dawnblade is completely fine, at least for pve.

[@Storse]

@@peytonsnyder2421 i mean you can literally kill entire rooms of ads with any ikelos/seraph weapon with any warmind mod on. as long as you keep an armour piece from this year you will always have this available. literally the best ad clear in the game by far.

[@peytonsnyder2421]

@@eggplant8214 Fine. Guess I was wrong.

[@peytonsnyder2421]

@@Storse True.

[@3blindmice221]

"Jokes on you, I have a lot of friends" Me: good for you *Wipes Tear*

[@itslethal4050]

I'll be your friend :DDD

[@3blindmice221]

Haha thanks :)

[@itslethal4050]

You're welcome

[@TanneMalm]

Hey, triggered warlock main here. Nah, jokes aside I kind of get what you're saying Datto but here's the thing: Top-tree dawnblade is literally the ONLY viable option for us warlocks right now in PvP since Bungie slammed nova warp and then bottom tree dawnblade. Sure you could have mild success with stormtrance but the super is incredibly slow (and teleport draaaaains your energy) and good players can avoid it easily. If top tree dawnblade is to be adjusted, then we need other subclasses to get buffed because if not - we're screwed in PvP. I get that you, with mods and sunbracers, can make the class incredibly strong in PvE but that goes for many other builds too, and its not exclusive to warlocks. Anyway, thats my take. Looking forward to mountaintop being out of trials and IB next season! Love u bro, looking forward to you covering Beyond Light.

[@entropy444]

top tree dawnblade is only god tier when you are overlevelled for the activity you are doing. in gms you cant kill a crowd of thralls with your melee and the whole thing breaks down.

[@GladwinGracias]

Congrats on the wedding !! Optimal Marriage Guide when ?

[@ndr2q]

I could use a guide, since I need help to work on my solo GM flawless marriage speed run.

[@NemesistheBoss]

''never-becouse she is not optimal''🎃

[@_F_rog]

Why two man when you can solo the exotic quest “life”

[@shadowreaver752]

Ask jez for that one.

[@Damien_Nielsen]

@@shadowreaver752 yes lol

[@Acer157xxx]

A nerf on Top Tree dawnblade would be devastating to Warlocks with the current builds we have available. Warlocks are definitely the least versatile with high-end PvP exotics out of the 3 classes, and until we get better exotics, I don't think any warlock subclasses should be really touched for now.

[@jetstreamlynn3156]

I would not be surprised to see tweaks to all supers in beyond light.

[@brodyschaffner919]

I think that if Bungie can make more warlock subclasses viable, it could be a good change. It’s just too good in movement, neutral game, and super, so I think if either the movement or neutral game is dialed back then it will be more balanced. But I don’t think this change should come without buffing other warlock trees

[@Brandon-og3vn]

Titans need a nerf. I don't see wtf it doesn't happen

[@funny.gon-12]

Dude middle arc tree needs nerf same with seeking nova bomb .

[@sir_gort]

@@funny.gon-12 What do you mean middle tree arc needs a nerf? Chaos Reach subclass is fine where it is. Slova Bomb I think could be tuned down a bit IF the rest of the subclass is buffed because right now, the subclass only has the slova bomb and the supercharged grenades.

[@DerultimativeOzzy]

Dawnblade definitly is a really strong subclass path and it being pulled down in power would make sense, but unfortunatly the Warlock class also suffers from having the worst alternative paths in the game. Paths like that of the Voidwalker are just straight ass and no one wants to play them. They're the lowest picked path in PvP and surpassed even the sunbreakers in terms of not being liked. To nerf Dawnblade now while that class is in desperate need of buffs and reworks is like stealing the wheelchair of a child and then beating it with it while its on the ground. To nerf Dawnblade without bringing appropriate buffs and reworks to Voidwalker and the lesser performing dawnblade and stormcaller paths would not lead towards people playing more voidwalker or any other alternative.

[@sir_gort]

You know what. I want Viking Funeral back, and the Destiny 1 prepatch firebolt grenades just to spite people that piss on warlocks constantly.

[@ballislife]

I've been telling people about how powerful top tree Dawn is and get hate for it.. It just has too many powerful features.

[@jacksong.5982]

Yeah it really is I love turning a corner expecting to pop someone’s skull with a sniper than this warlock is 60 feet above with perfect in air accuracy and kills me be fore I can even think of where he is and even if he bodies celestial fire can kill me almost instantly afterwards it just sucks to play against along with all the other insane abilities

[@kitanat9944]

Yeah, that’s mainly what I play and I always joke to my friends about how overpowered it is.

[@Jota1]

ayo why you here

[@Flamexa]

Hey how about this, maybe the reason why it's so good is because everything else is so bad

[@zeroeum5323]

The cheesiest subclass eva lol

[@Whatyoudexpect]

5:32 You can hear datto in the background yelling "22 MOUNTAINTOP SHOTS BY THE WAY" Fun times with this gun let me tell you.

[@macchristensen2508]

I literally just wrote the same thing in the comments. That’s what I get for not reading the comments first.

[@VallornDeathblade]

While top tree dawn might need toning back slightly, other Warlock subclasses absolutely need a buff, some of them are really poor at this point.

[@G_Rad_Ski]

Yeah the Warlocks need all the help they can get in PvP and taking away top tree dawn will be rough.

[@robonerd125]

No, i'm still mad butthurt from the D1 stormtrance days, so Warlocks can get bent for all i give a shit. (mostly kidding... mostly)

[@kvadratbolatbek1053]

@@G_Rad_Ski if they will tune top tree dawn to the ground, people will stop playing warlocks again, like in yr2

[@Akunn004]

Nova Warp the super is in a bad spot I feel like. Same with bottom Storm, Chaos Reach, and Bottom Dawn.

[@VallornDeathblade]

@@Akunn004 I miss the days of Handheld Supernova. I'd say middle tree arc as a whole is in an ok place, it's definitly one of the mosre synergistic subclasses we have. Bottom Dawn should be getting an indirect buff with the new Warlock exotic but we'll have to see how that goes.

[@shlermit]

I honestly don't think there is a good way to completely remove mountaintop from pvp, but I have just learned to cry myself to sleep quietly.

[@sully4073]

@Vox4l exactly

[@MMMSOTOASTY]

Just give the gun a 50/50 chance of just killing the user instead, make up some bullshit about it being damaged by the ice of Europa

[@devoarco]

@@MMMSOTOASTY wtf

[@frostyss9482]

@@MMMSOTOASTY AHAHA WTF

[@Duke_Exeter]

Dramatically reduce blast radius and reduce aim assist/hitbox on micro missile.

[@samfitzgerald3331]

Datto, the titan main, doesn't mention the broken melee range of bottom tree striker? I wonder why.

[@andrewhoffman1087]

I've freaking had it with "one hit kill, fastest melee, fastest CLASS, Titans" in PvP.

[@Spike2276]

Hunters and warlocks have mobility, titans have melee... how many times do you win a 1v1 because of movement and how many do you win because you punched further?

[@Reason7322]

Probably because its not an issue.

[@Nibblerr]

@@Reason7322 knockout really is an issue. Not because of the range, but because it does 160 damage. That's wayy too much damage for a punch you get whenever you break someone's shields. I'd get it if it was tied to frontal assault but since its not it really needs reduction in damage.

[@115zombies935]

@@Nibblerr If you break someone’s shield then the extra damage doesn’t matter. What are you even talking about?

[@benevolent5146]

Warlocks: *exist* Datto: yeah _NO_

[@sir_gort]

Of course, because he's a biased as fuck Titan main. Nothing wrong with liking a particular class, but having that level of favoritism is just bad overall for the game.

[@jammin1881]

@@sir_gort Titan mains laughed for entire seasons as they ran around with over shielded, roaming supers. Warlocks get one good tree and people cry like cunts.

[@tcmeme5693]

Honestly, if mountaintop required heavy ammo, it might not be so bad.

[@erichall090909]

I mean it would never get used so good change

[@giantlizard9158]

Actually that is not a bad idea

[@erichall090909]

@@giantlizard9158 it’s the same as removing it. It would never get used

[@ariesoginaro1062]

Honestly what would have been better is rather focusing on impact with low splash damage. The pinnicles should be focused around a play style and not a power trip. Example: let’s take the ritual weapon python. The most common perk run on it tends to be overflow, and to make it a pinnacle would be to focus in on the ammo consumption. My idea is as overflow is active, then the pinnacle perk ( no idea for a name) you gain increased hand lying and stow speed, along with increased overflow capacity (if reserves are not maxed of course). For reference: currently python has a mag of 5, and 10 at base overflow. This new perk would make the mag 15 instead, but wouldn’t increase damage, just decrease the need to reload. Just a thought, if you would like to discuss this topic further on focusing pinnacles and rituals I am all for hearing them. I always find these conversations interesting as it shows how different people use different weapons. Loaded Question I use as a quick swap since it wants to be used as a hot swap weapon, and python I use for mowing through adds with a few quick primary kills, swap with overflow active and punch my way through with every shot.

[@spyrothedragon091]

@@erichall090909 thats a good thing lol

[@blakesmith5051]

I have to disagree on nerfing top tree dawnblade. Honestly this subclass should represent the golden standard for designing a subclass, as it shows excellent synergy between its abilities and actually makes sense. Yes I do agree it can be a bit oppressive in PvP, but at the same time it represents the ONLY viable warlock subclass for endgame PvP, and no other warlock subclass is even competitive. As for PvE, what??? Overtuned??? Yeah anything looks overtuned when you are dunking on some low level lost sector ads. Ask yourself this: when was the last time you used top-tree dawnblade in actual endgame PvE content? Yeah it's fun, but no where close to overtuned in PvE.

[@raynefall3078]

Uhhhh, you mean you dont see dawnblade in casual being viable. it's the only thing I see warlocks use at all.b

[@MATT-660]

Bottom tree night stalker has even more sinergy/team support and add clear capabilities. Get fugged floaty nerds

[@NathanShepard]

Fully agree. I'd be ok if they tweeked or nerfed some of top tree dawnblade if other warlock subclass got significantly buffed for end game pvp! It really is the ONLY option for trails, comp etc! HAHA, yeah who uses it for raids or dungeons?! No one. Its well of radiance or top/bottom tree voidwalkers typically.

[@Someguy1357]

@@NathanShepard Don't forget the occasional middle-tree storm too.

[@Zyres7]

I completely agree. Without top tree dawn, warlocks have no competitive edge in pvp. ​@@raynefall3078 in pvp? of course. We don't have wormhusk, one eyed mask, dragons shadow, citans rampants, kehpris horn, ashen wake, anteus wards and not to mention the new overshield exotic, the revival exotic thats coming for titan, and the new blink exotic for hunter. Literally the only few pvp exotics that can even be considered for designed specifically for PVP is karnstein armlets, transversive steps. Warlocks have a slower melee than both hunter and titan so the new exotic necrosis and karnstein is basically unable to compete in a melee fight. Top tree down is the only thing keeping warlocks viable in pvp

[@TheDukeofBeans]

“22 mountaintop shots btw” special ammo may need a tune also.

[@ZimVader13]

All they need to do is not let u spawn with green power ammo and stop nerfing shit. Make u fight for special every few minutes like d1

[@trashboat8334]

@@ZimVader13 no

[@jakedempsey3809]

Yeah little bit. It's not just Mountaintop though, shotties and snipers can be a bit much too. Special ammo economy needs a little adjustment

[@ghalienturpin120]

@@trashboat8334 why? Stop relying on only being able to get kills with your mountaintop or sniper

[@l3lack_ice]

No, the main issues! are those damn guns: jotum, first and secondary grenade launchers and sniper rifles. I love sniper rifles but my god.. they are beyond annoying... oh and that 600 rpm auto rifle the.. Naughing hunger I think that's what it's called I hate that damn void weapon xD

[@kobold_sushi_executive_chef]

Imagine how much more terrifying 600rpm autos would be if more people had grinded for a Galliard with DSR, Rangefinder, and a good scope before it gets sunset.

[@qalvary3556]

Datto's State of How I Hate Warlocks 2020 - Pre-Beyond Light

[@jakedempsey3809]

I'd like to insert something about the movement/dawnblade section. It's awesome to have movement options, but I think the issue is that they don't work too well with mao design. D2 maps are generally mid to short range, making it so you can move across the map in a single jump. If they added more large maps I think this issue would be a lot less noticeable. It'd also give scouts a little room to breathe, maybe add in some vehicle play, and it fixes up some of the problems in pvp

[@godmodegames9286]

so basically big team battle from halo 3?

[@M0M0Games]

Sounds like we need more D1 maps then

[@griffinnash3881]

I would think nerfing one of the 27 subclass trees would be much easier than creating all new maps.

[@voltus20]

@@griffinnash3881 nerfing the only viable pvp subclass for warlock would absolutely destroy an already really weak class pvp wise, i'd take a nerf to top dawblade if arc and void subclasses get a generous(and needed) buff, otherwise it will be year 2 all over again, with warlocks just dissapearing from the scene altogether.

[@spicygoodness6928]

So you mean bring back combined arms? I’m down and have been asking for this

[@boze7180]

“Scouts are the primary snipers of the game” *bows would like to know your location*

[@konradfletcher6311]

Bows are more like primary linear fusions

[@adventstriker3667]

@@konradfletcher6311 That's actually a really good way of looking at them. I hadn't thought of it like that before.

[@konradfletcher6311]

@@adventstriker3667 bows are linear fusions for people with commitment issues

[@boze7180]

Konrad Fletcher I guess it’s comparable to linear fusions but they’re more snipers than scouts are

[@abdulrahmanmohammed6778]

The TTK in bows not as fast, plus if you miss a headshot you’ll be punished severely. And yes, I wish scout rifles get buffed.

[@potatoaccuracy1276]

Isn’t the movement “cheese” only really a pc issue? On console, yes warlocks are a bit faster, but never zooming around the map at extreme speeds like on pc. This is coming from a titan who doesn’t have a huge issue with icarus dash, moreso just celestial fire spam.

[@zaaralejandro3501]

Probably because it is so much harder to pull off on console than it is on a pc enviroment, having to press the correct boton combination to get the full speed boost is such a pain on console that most people don't bother with it. So yeah it is mostly an issue on pc and not so much on console but it can be done, and can be abused on either platform

[@marcos8892]

I mean if you are never in the highest level of play this doesn't really come to mind as often as you think. I too am on console and in trials, survival and even scrims the melee is more of a more of a problem than movement. But, going mach 10, even on console to get away from your striker slam or getting to a sniper lane before your enemy, does pose a pretty unfair advantage. This is coming from a hunter main that is also able to play the other class fairly well.

[@julcom9394]

On console top tree dawn is literally the only competitive option for us warlocks, don’t nerf it pls

[@user-dc9xh2os6h]

@@julcom9394 what do u mean there is top tree stormcaller really good. Literally as good as bottom tree striker which is the best class titans have

[@The_Number1Candyman]

@@user-dc9xh2os6h The super is good but the neutral only works on bad players, avoiding arc web is easy.

[@darklightrising5551]

Very satisfying to see datto talk to the rhythm of Erianas Vow at 19:15

[@nygomi8652]

RE: Top Dawnblade As a console player, I personally don't think the movement issues you mention are as bad as you say it is, and nerfing something because of its performance on one platform is a very good way to annoy people (rest in peace Last Word). I think that it would be fine with some timer adjustments; maybe strike down Heat Rises just a bit, increase the cooldown on Icarus Dash from five to ten seconds maybe. As you mention, it does have a pretty high skill ceiling to zip around and is either nearly or outright impossible to do on console. I have far more issues with Spectral Blades and 600 rpm ARs than top tree Dawn, as very few people in the lobbies I play make extensive abuse of Heat Rises. I also don't know of anyone who uses top tree Dawn in PvE to the point where it is an issue; most of the time if people are using Dawnblade they're probably using Well in PvE unless it's lower end content, in which case it doesn't really matter what you're using imo. This is again from my personal experience, and while I may be wrong, from my own usage of it I don't really think any tuning in PvE is necessary.

[@kitanat9944]

Yes, as a pc player, I agree with everything you said.

[@buckzee289]

He's just an idiot that hates warlocks from d1. Good thing he's losing his relevance.

[@Sneeks416]

"I've certainly hit some stupid shots" Proceeds to hit a headshot while the bullet actually goes 4 miles away from the dude

[@dylbarton]

Pretty sure that was the point of that editing decision.

[@hattersmadness4701]

this must be a controller thing, cause my shots just keep wizzing by there head.

[@Sirvuh]

@@hattersmadness4701 not just controller actually, keyboard also has this, its just for some reason when being shot it might just go on someone’s head when the person sniping shouldn’t hit the shot. Pvp streamers are really fed up with it because they know they should be flinching someone but are still killed and it’s likely because they flinched the shot onto their own head.

[@Reason7322]

@@hattersmadness4701 you do realize that Datto plays d2 with mnk?

[@hobartpaving8986]

@@hattersmadness4701 Watch Drewsky’s video on this - M&K has noticeably *more* bullet magnetism than controllers.

[@glabuser2176]

The meta is like bungies dictionary, everything is in it except for balance.

[@BrentLooyenga]

To be fair, we had balance in D2 vanilla. That was BORING. I’ll take this up and down rollercoaster any day.

[@sushii8010]

@@BrentLooyenga i just cant agree d2 vanilla was boring because it was balanced. To ME D2 vanilla was too slow of a game not to mention no special ammo weapons. This sandbox has some horrific bugs, like the damage bug, and the meta is wack. On console i know that 600 autos are all people see, and there some variety on PC but it is still used a lot there. I would’nt say that this is a better meta than d2 vanilla although both were and are not great.

[@BrentLooyenga]

@@sushii8010 Sure, balance doesn't mean boring, I can see how my comment could come across that way, but not what I meant. I do think balance in Destiny will often translate that way, because Destiny is about Space Magic, and it's hard to balance that and still make you feel awesome. I also agree that 600 autos need to get toned down just a tad,. What I AM saying, is I like how they meta changes, it was hand canons, it was 450 auto's, it was erintil, etc. It is never balanced, but at least it changes, causing me to get good at different things, explore different ideas.

[@davidlee1770]

I just hope that 140s will get some love in beyond light

[@blakeerenhouse943]

The whole point of a sandbox is to have a rotating meta. They intentionally try to cause some lesser used weapons to become a lot more viable while nerfing tip choices so that the meta is constantly shifting. This makes each competitive season a little different from the last and constantly updates top tier choices. It can be kinda overwhelming when every gun is super good or equally bad

[@PsychoticMayhem]

Highlight of the vid. "Jokes on you, I have enough friends"

[@shadowreaver752]

Lonely guardian noises

[@Aoterra]

The sword skating and worldlining removal already killed so many peoples motivation for playing, speedrunning and going fast skillfully is so much fun and I really hope they don't change it again

[@CanYouHackett97]

Loved the faint “22 Mountaintop shots by the way” lol

[@alexcox9400]

That echo datto voice when he talks about mountaintops learning curve

[@yungzhalo5855]

I just hope bungie makes different sandbox changes for pve, pvp, console and pc

[@procapn3681]

I really do not want a nerf to top tree dawn. It's really the only top-tier pvp option for us warlocks. You've also got to remember that we don't have a lot of crazy good pvp exotics either, which is why you only see transversive steps. So having a decent subclass (with a bad super) is nice.

[@basedlibertyprime]

Shocking that a warlock doesn’t want warlock nerfs. Your crutch is getting nerfed keep crying

[@Arin-3]

@@basedlibertyprime I mean, as a Titan Main it's kinda sad to see Warlocks have only one good subclass, it's kinda sad when Titans or Huntards can go into crucible with whatever subclass they want and still have a chance while warlocks have to stick top tree Dawn or Arc.

[@chickenjimmy6552]

@@basedlibertyprime Say that to nova warp. Every time an overpowered warlock asset gets nerfed, we have absolutely nothing for months on end. Seeing arc strider, golden gun, and spectral blades all be viable is just such a bad feeling when I look at my own subclasses. Imagine if every subclass on hunter was top tree tether except for a single one. That sums warlock subclasses.

[@zeroeum5323]

U mean top-cheese pvp.

[@warv6552]

@@chickenjimmy6552 Golden Gun viable when? It’s the lowest win ratio subclass in Trials.

[@13576bard]

"Top tree Dawnblade is overtuned in PvP." Yes. Of course. Definitely. "Top tree with Sunbracers is overtuned for PvE." :(

[@sir_gort]

He's a biased Titan player. Don't take his opinion on warlocks seriously.

[@ianurbaitis]

Congrats on the wedding! Hoping for a big sandbox shake up

[@Nailfut]

I'd rather say that top tree dawn seems to outmatch everything else because we warlocks only have that subclass as a viable pvp choice, so we all got the hang of it. Please, even though I love that subclass, I'd sacrifice it to get MORE good choices for pvp

[@gusg4858]

They should reduce the dashes to 1. Made no sense to me as a twilight garrison player that they nerfed the dashes from 2 to 1 and increase cooldown between dashes in d1 only to give it to warlocks for free here in d2 as a part of their neutral game and give them the pre nerfed garrison dash amount and cooldown

[@flamezamster]

"We have seen your commentary on top tree dawnblade and have made the following chages. 1. You only get 1 icarus dash and have to wait 30 seconds for a refresh. 2. we have removed celstial fire and have put in its place the melee burn from middle tree dawnblade. 3. we have nurfed i air accuracy with heat rises unless you use that god awful exotic that keeps you in place for 3 seconds. We have also extended the reach of spectral blade and now lasts 10 seconds longer."

[@Spike2276]

Idk why every top-tree main is out here in the comment section terrified of not having other options if it's nerfed. Nobody wants Bungie to nerf top tree and call it a day, just tune down some of the more out there stuff on top tree and bring other warlock subclasses up to snuff

[@thespookybanana6007]

@@Spike2276 It's because it very frequently happens that Bungie will just throw a blanket nerf on everything. Remember Nova Warp?

[@Spike2276]

@@thespookybanana6007 yes Bungie tends to do that, but that's no excuse to not nerf something that is too powerful, heck go back to a video when one eyed mask was still god's gift to titans and look at how many old comments said that "it shouldn't be nerfed because titans have no other good exotics", it got nerfed and other stuff got buffed and now different things have taken it's place And no i don't remember nova warp because i haven't seen it since they nerfed contraverse holds

[@AyushRaj]

Top Tree Dawn is how every skill tree in Destiny should have been. Synergy and fun

[@urnan8570]

Yeh the super doesnt need nerfing, it highlights how bad some supers really are.

[@ExplosiveFilms2007]

Agreed! Top tree Dawnblade is awesome and shouldn't be changed at all. Bungie should rather consider buffing worse skill trees.

[@a-a-ron9027]

.."being sniped in the head from a spot you didn't even know existed." story of my life

[@SakunyaWicked]

I unironically hug Mountaintop Players to make them blow themselves up.

[@endrollcurtaincall]

"22 mountaintop shots by the way" That caught me off guard

[@kelilagottlieb8096]

Totally agree on the the whole loaded question thing Datto. Actually, I agree with everything you said. I do think as far as bastion goes, maybe making it so all the bolts have to hit for a kill seems fairer than just nailing one shot which is what we have now... just me maybe haha

[@lambree4947]

agreed with bastion

[@UnstopbableBullet]

Getting one shot out of super by just one of the pieces of the bastion burst is a big time feelsbad

[@Someguy1357]

@@UnstopbableBullet It takes two to kill most supers. Also.. it's an exotic special weapon.

[@elizabethhicks4181]

So, tone Bastion down just a hair, buff other fusions so they’re not literally useless? Fusions died for Erentil’s sins, not gonna lie.

[@Someguy1357]

@@elizabethhicks4181 I think Bastion's fine. You're right though, the only viable legendary fusion right now is Erentil. Way to nerf Erentil Bungie lol.

[@carpemkarzi]

It took me forever to get recluse and mountain top and died soooooo many times to those damn things while grinding. I refuse to use it in pvp but my is a solo pve players friend.

[@alvarosamaniego319]

FIRST OF ALL: ... Congrats on the marriage, you both deserve the best of life. second: top dawnblade, not agree with you on that, actually I want the other subclasses / trees to have their own personality as this one, but that's me Regarding anything else I kinda agree but don't mind if there isn't a change.

[@TDTProductions]

How to fix Top Tree dawn: 1. allow only 1 Icarus dash per refresh 2. Reduce damage on melee from 105 (35 each) to 75 (25 each) 3. Allow melee regen to only trigger on melee kills

[@DaCreepNextDoor]

Happy to hear someone put top tree dawn blade in its place. Coming from someone who hates playing against it, it’s nice to hear my frustrations validated.

[@DonRobertoDeMuerte]

I disagree when it comes to the movement in PVP because I think they spice things up in game. While I agree that dawnblade probably needs to be toned down, on console it’s not a big issue as I’ve seen on PC. Also congrats on the wedding Datto!

[@s-fang5520]

I agree, but at the same time, I barely feel like I can actually shoot anything without getting barrel-stuffed by every shotgun ape in the lobby, or, occasionally shoulder charged by some brainless moron running insurmountable shitfort. So, if Bungie could simply just scale all the maps up by x2, and maybe even tone down the speed of guardians a little bit, that'd be very nice, and maybe even let me actually try to use scouts again (probably not going to be enough of a change on most maps, but I'd still at least try).

[@iiRooB]

@@s-fang5520 I don't really think that the map size is what's causing you to get aped by shotgun's, I mean it doesn't help but, the main problem is that the Special ammo economy in PvP is far too saturated.

[@DonRobertoDeMuerte]

Special ammo is definitely a problem. Scavenger mods probably need to be toned. But a lot of times positioning and reading your radar will help against shotgun rushers. Not all the time, but sometimes you can avoid shotgunners, especially in the higher tier PvP, snipers are more problematic

[@s-fang5520]

@@iiRooB but special ammo is mainly gotten by killing enemies that also have special ammo, and picking up the ammo bricks. If they can't kill people, they are going to have a tougher time getting ammo for their gun, so nerfing shotguns in the ways I mentioned will definitely help with the special ammo economy, at least a little bit.

[@halomasta21]

13:08 OMFG THANK YOU SOMEBODY FINALLY MENTIONS THE SENTINEL SHIELD MELEE HIT DETECTION

[@Spike2276]

I think Datto mentions it in every video where he talks about sentinel shield, and he's right to do so, that hit detection is actual trash

[@notarrat0767]

Any thoughts on the 12 year long delay between casting tether and it suppressing a super? I get killed through the tether orb by bottom tree strikers entirely too often

[@Spike2276]

They buffed the suppression activation on tether a while ago, but i think it's fated to be a wonky ability because of P2P connection Also it does insta suppress on a direct hit, so there is that

[@kitanat9944]

@@Spike2276 imagine getting a direct hit on a bottom tree striker

[@Spike2276]

@@kitanat9944 I know, but i mean that it's a property of the ability, as for the actual tether suppress it is, like i said, probably an unfortunate victim of P2P connection

[@tiborsapi9859]

considering how long it takes to place rift and barrier and even the uneven terrain can cancel it?

[@gravitonlance3610]

@@Spike2276 it definitely does not instantly suppress on direct impact, not a chance

[@fielddranzer]

Hey man, throughout the entire video, all I can really say is "You're onto something," and for the refresher course at the end... you know some of us love you, so shush. I'm just glad you're still here, talking sense about a game that I quite frankly love. I just don't have anything I want to do in it anymore.

[@jayjam_]

im convinced with every Datto's state video theres a bungie employee taking notes while watching the video.

[@The_Number1Candyman]

Console player here! Top tree Dawnblade doesn't need an adjustment here because it has such a high skill ceiling that in all my time playing since the update that made it good came out I've only seen 2-3 other players that were actually using it well, and looking at the class stats you can see that Dawnblade players aren't doing too well even now, when they've had tons of time to practice. I've legitimately never been outplayed by someone sky sniping here on console, even in comp, and I rarely even see people use heat rises in general. On PC though from the gameplay I've seen over time it does seem too strong, but I'm sick of things getting nerfed because they're stupid good on one specific platform... If they have to nerf it I'd prefer they nerf/change heat rises since that is one of the main points that it breaks PvP with over on PC, also the speed should probably be adjusted there too, but it had better not ruin the skill tree on console or warlocks will have nothing going for them if top tree Dawnblade becomes trash (I'm talking about specifically in PvP), especially with Hunters getting yet ANOTHER stupid good subclass in Beyond Light.

[@basedlibertyprime]

It needs adjusting on consoles to stfu

[@S3Cs4uN8]

@@basedlibertyprime lol keep crying

[@Someguy1357]

It's really not op on console. I could see bungie nerfing icarus dash back to a single dash and slowing down the projectile, but all the other aspects of top-tree he mentioned are not problematic at all. The floating thing is GIMMICKY, like Bombadiers on Hunters. Being suspended in the air usually = death unless your opponent isn't paying attention. WTH's with Datto calling for PvE nerfs to top-tree? The ONLY alternative is middle (support) or bottom-tree...which is garbage outside of super.

[@thenedsmmachannel8970]

@@basedlibertyprime maybe just a nerf to celestial fire damage but other than that its fine. The super is short compared to others and the mobility is great but not ridiculous. I have been killed and killed warlocks spamming icarus in the animation also the 2nd dash is shorter than the first one so its not ridiculously OP. Maybe an additional second or 2 for the cool down but its really not that bad lol

[@zeroeum5323]

Oh yea! You need to have a lot of skill to celestial fire from ANY rage and hit the target behind cover -_-

[@renaissent]

Datto: top tree dawn is worse than spectral blades Me: I dunno, I got killed three times by the same instance of spectral blade in comp last night

[@Someguy1357]

Most PvP youtubers will complain about Spectral before top-tree. Top-tree is good, but it's not oppressive like spectral.

[@47halide]

Top tree dawn is amazing but honestly I don’t have a problem with it other than the fact that it adds a movement mechanic NOTHING else in the game has. spectral on the other hand, that just lasts too long and the range is insane. imo the energy you use when you swipe should be increased

[@Reidtc]

​@@Someguy1357 ya but most pvp players are warlocks, they won't complain about their own class when its OP, also a dawn blade will destroy most roaming supers in a 1v1

[@merlinfps]

@@Reidtc im p sure most played class is hunter bro

[@Reidtc]

@@Someguy1357 but spectral does need a nerf, not as much as dawn blade though

[@friendlyelites]

Datto your Titan bias is showing, you didn't mention the literal teleporting Titans do whenever they melee in pvp because of their broken range. Also if top Dawn gets nerfed or Well gets nerfed, again, then that would just mean that there is nothing good for warlocks to use in any high level content. Dawnblade doesn't need to get nerfed, the rest of the warlock subclasses just need to be buffed to be worthwhile to use in any important capacity.

[@thenedsmmachannel8970]

He didn't even mention bubble that also gives you a buff and more cover and its far more viable in PVP. In a well you can still get sniped in the well, you can just hide in the bubble for 30 seconds ontop of having 15(?) seconds of weapon damage increase, the second you leave well the buffs are gone lol

[@tiagofernandes7351]

I feel like this video was all over the place. Everything warlock related is broken for him.. like does he think about what we are going to use if the only good things we have are nerfed??

[@Spike2276]

@@thenedsmmachannel8970 he didn't mention well in PvP, because no one uses it same as bubble Warlocks also have the longest range non-charged neutral melee, titan melee only extends it's reach with synthoceps or bottom tree striker (which is literally inferior to mid tree striker btw)

[@thenedsmmachannel8970]

@@Spike2276 fair point but he did mention top tree for both pve and pvp. Also yeah we have the longest but its still the slowest. It happens more often that I lose melee battles by being slower cause of the game even tho we both hit each other the nearly at the exact same time, those few frames make a difference. I dont even like to get up close regardless of my melee range cause of shotguns and I am at a disadvantage already with the delay in my 2nd melee attack

[@Aj-py8en]

My opinions and suggested changes for each thing you talked about Mountaintop: make it bounce. Replace sticky and spike grenades with remote detonation. They either hit you directly or time the extremely fast projectile to get slash on you. Autos: 600s take 1 more body shot to kill for both optimal and body ttk. 450s kill in 1 less crit and 1 less body Dawnblade: move melee energy bonus from winged sun to heat rises. Nerf melee projectile speed and damage (25 per). Winged sun now increases the melees damage to what it is currently while in the air. The melee becomes a "get them out of cover" ability like ball lightning. For high damage you have to be in the air and to get energy back you have to sacrifice your grenade. Spectral: triple energy used if an attack doesn't hit a target. Lower damage resistance to chaos reach level. While invisible you move faster instead of getting more armor. Nerf duration a bit. Removes the light attack spam to move and makes recloaking more punishing. The super should be used as an assassin, to move behind enemy lines to kill camping enemies or hunt down and shut down an enemy super. Sniper flinch (special weapons in general): all of them are too easy to use. Snipers should reward aim. - nerf aim assist values. They aren't heavy weapons anymore they shouldn't have heavy weapon aim assist. Also fix flinch so you aren't rewarded while taking fire. Snapshot should be nerfed to affect weapons with poor handling less. +50 handling vs +100 Makes high impacts weaker with there slow handling to balance out there damage buff capabilities and super shutdown ability. Shotguns should reward positioning. - nerf quick draw to give +50 handling instead of +100. The aggressive frames need to be balanced by their poor handling if they keep their range and damage. Fusions should reward timing. - the shots should have travel time again. Once that happens they could get damage buffs or possibly shoot more bolts based on archetype. Grenade launchers should reward timing and aim. - universal nerf to special grenade launcher velocity. Closer to witherhoard drop instead of mountaintop. Then nerf blast radius. Calculating the drop and speed would leave them strong weapons with their ability to hit behind cover and around corners without getting another mountaintop where it's a point and click free damage. Special ammo as a whole should be decreased on spawn and on pickup but special ammo crates should be introduced to create some objectives in matches. Handcannons: 150s are still the only archetype used. The range homogenizing didn't help at all. 110 should 1 crit 2 body and have pulse rifle range 140 should 2 crit 1 body and have auto range 150 should stay 3 crit and get a bodyshots damage nerf. No more spamming shots 180s become 200 rpm and kill in 1 crit 3 body and have current range. Or handcannons could be special weapons like they were planned to be and regain their high burst damage high range and high accuracy. Similar to trace rifles they get 10 shots on spawn 4-6 per pickup.

[@15liran]

Don’t lie Datto, you had a some real fun playing with Mountaintop. Also, congratulations!

[@TheWardog6650]

I pray they DONT nerf Top Tree DawnBlade for PvP. As a Warlock main, its ALL WE HAVE. Whats can I use after DB? Middle Tree Voldwalker? Handheld Supernova has been nerf forever. Bottom Tree Stormcaller? Squishy Super that doesn't last long. Idk man, I love the movement, and its pretty all we have in comparison to yall Golden Guns, Spectral Blades, ThunderCrash, Etc.

[@Shadow762]

top tree storm is fun as fuck give it a try with crown and storm nades

[@evanrfec3652]

It’s all you have but it’s the best

[@The_Number1Candyman]

Warlocks have top tree Dawnblade and nothing else is a solid option for PvP, you are right on the money. PvE warlocks are in a great place though. Also for Stormcaller, always use top tree, it makes the super really good, but that doesn't get rid of the weak neutral game that only works on noob players

[@necro4383]

Not to mention Daybreak's hitscan is trash and it often doesn't one shot

[@evanrfec3652]

@@necro4383 the hits can isint that bad

[@AdzPower]

I barely see top tree dawnblade on console being used well. Just keep in mind that like he said, this is from a PC perspective, most of what he said about dawnblade does not apply to console, we have virtually no field of view, we can't skate the same and heat rises doesn't work like it does on PC.

[@danieleaton1530]

Still, I agree with what he says about the ability spam in pve. That's still a thing.

[@kvadratbolatbek1053]

I am sorry Datto, but movement of top tree dawn movement has incredible skill ceiling and gives an enough reward if you will master it. That is why I dont personally think the dashes themselves need to be touched. The cooldown of the nades, and tracking of the melee lunge should be touched in a mandatory way.

[@Satosuke]

Ok ok, but hear me out. Damage boost and anti-barrier on Skyburner's Oath. C'mon, Bungo, do it.

[@branthro6492]

It already goes through Phalanx shields so it'd make sense to just make it anti-barrier

[@CloudFowest]

I agree with almost everything, but I really hope that I'm not alone in the thought that the Gnawing Hunger is completely broken, particularly in crucible. Its time to kill matches or exceeds most exotics, and those that it doesn't quite, it flinches so hard even with mods that you lose the firefight. A god rolled gnawing hunger will kill you in the time it takes to draw a bow back, and it'll do it at scout rifle range. I once witnessed my friend trade with gnawing hunger while using a Hammerhead. It feels like datto is just too high in crucible's matchmaking echelons to experience the gnawing hunger spam at lower levels

[@alexc6088]

The situation differs from M&K and Controller on PC where effectively peek shooting can easily shut down auto rifles that need consistent damage. Cammy has a primo clip on his "setting his sights for the future" video. Which shows that under optimal play an auto rifle just couldn't compete. That being said the room for said optimal play is very small and it would be great if they widened it a tiny bit.

[@martinmurdoch6887]

With top tree dawn I think removing or nerfing the grenade ability is fair but I fell like warlocks need better other subclasses for pvp

[@willsics7203]

Stormcaller is pretty fun try it out and devour is pretty good if you can win your gunfights

[@sebastianturner2458]

@@willsics7203 Devour suffers greatly without double primary, though. No amount of heath recovery stops a shotgun or a sniper.

[@willsics7203]

@@sebastianturner2458 ye I get what u mean but I don’t believe that’s because shotguns and snipers are too strong it’s because of the ammo economy atm

[@willsics7203]

They should remove special ammo on spawn and when you kill someone it drops small amount no matter what mods you have on or the mods give negatives like -10 mobility/recovery/resilience

[@Sean-ic9wl]

@@willsics7203 Did you play d1 y3? Not a fun time, it was this exact situation. Also, this would obliterate trials. Completely. It would work in qp tho.

[@MATT-660]

For mountaintop i'd just remove blast radius alltogether. Make it into a potato cannon. Fot top tree dawn just make the blast radius on the melee half and have only one charge of icarus dash, so it's basically still the same but you gotta be a bit more clever/precise about ability usage. 600 autos need their range and target aquisition reduced.

[@adamdoolan1267]

so you suggest just killing top tree dawn and leave warlocks with no pvp subclass?

[@MATT-660]

@@adamdoolan1267 killings a pretty strong word. They'd still have a usefull dodge, just have to use it cleverly and sparringly and the melee as of now is just outrageous, god said it himself in the video, so toning down the radius and not the damage would make it so you gotta be really precise with it to get the same result (just like with fan of knifes in mid tree gunslinger) SoMeOnE iS sUgGeStInG fIxEs FoR mY cRuTcH oP sUbClAsS wAaAaH Before saying dumb shit try and think. There, i baby proofed my suggestion just for you ;)

[@MATT-660]

@@adamdoolan1267 also all subclasses are viable, it's just that top tree dawn is so annoyingly good compared to the rest that meta hugging scrubs like yourselfs (most likely) go around saying it's "only viable subclass" and that _fixing_ it would "leave warlocks with no pvp subclass". Here's how *I* play instead: _However the fuck i want, buddy._ I run top tree goldey wich has one of if not the most bland and non sinergetic neutral game and a neutered super. I use ace and my crucible sniper exclusivly and i don't give a rat's ass if some retard out there said "spare+felwinter with stompees and mid tree nightsstalker is the only viable option"

[@dantedshaw1996]

“Top Tree Dawnblade” Imaging mentioning that when it’s only uses is for skating/hovering long distance and PvP compare to Middle Tree.

[@Someguy1357]

Who even plays Top Tree Dawnblade in any serious content? Sunbracers is pretty much a meme exotic.

[@benfawefwaeffwaefawfdekk2080]

I swear to god every fun subclass in this game gets killed because of PvP. Im so sick and tired of PvP ruining PvE's fun. Seperate the sandboxes or banish shaxx from the fricken tower I dont care anymore

[@mankdemes2931]

Benfawefwaef fwaefawf [Dekk] I’ve been playing destiny since year 1, pve gets so boring and so repetitive no matter how many build there are it’s repetitive don’t get me wrong I love new content but if I play the same strike multiple times everyday I will go insane, so I play pvp mostly because I find it more fun and interesting.

[@Someguy1357]

@@mankdemes2931 This is so true. The sandbox has probably never been well-tuned, and the gameplay lack variety... unless you're raiding.

[@115zombies935]

@@mankdemes2931 It’s the other way around for me. After a few pvp matches it gets boring. The high end pve content like raids and GM nightfalls always keep me entertained though.

[@kylekent706]

I'm back after the leaks that Mountaintop will be returning. Haha, I can't wait to hear how much Datto loves this. I'm so excited.

[@_goodwin10k73]

I'm a warlock main and had no idea you could do that with top tree dawn blade! That shit was sick.

[@shauny5015]

Top tip. Worldline Zero is extremely underrated.

[@Sohelanthropus]

Yeah, it deals the most damage on heavy attack of any sword

[@shauny5015]

@@Ourplealchohol because they disabled the ability to skate unfortunately

[@loreking486]

@@Ourplealchoholtesseract 1 shots the champs in garden

[@thorn0203]

@@Ourplealchohol swing swap jump icarus jump icarus

[@VAVORiAL]

I'm afraid that Bungie is gonna kill the only top tier pvp choice Warlocks have, Top Tree Dawn. I feel like everytime Locks get pvp adjustments, they're complete overkills that destroy whole subclasses. Look at Middle Void. It was overpowered, sure, but after like what, 3 nerfs, it's pure garbage. In both pvp and pve. Or look at Bottom Tree Dawn. That subclass doesn't even have a neutral game and the only good thing about it, its super, got multiple nerfs. I don't know, I just hope Warlocks don't get gutted again.

[@IDECIDETHETRUTH]

If you've been playing for awhile you know that's exactly what's gonna happen. Warlocks aren't allowed to have anything even a little good or fun. That's all there is to it. Datto is doing his part to make sure that reality comes true, because he's a slobbering Titan main.

[@topsnek1375]

I only every play warlock, I don't like playing other classes because of how much experience I have with just warlock. Top Tree dawnblade is the only viable way to go for high end pvp experiences and I find the super itself to be lackluster compared to all the other supers in game. Especially on those maps where you can't really get a height advantage over people

[@DesignatedHealer]

Warlocks have one competitive subclass. Just one, and people are crying for a nerf when both other classes have so many viable options.

[@eggplant8214]

i wouldnt say warlocks only have 1 viable pvp subclass, as at least in my opinion, bottom tree voidwalker and top tree stormcaller are quite good too, but i also dont think they should nerf top tree dawnblade. it is by far the most unique subclass ability wise and gives a whole new playstyle, and you cant say that firing missles from your hands isnt the coolest shit ever. people want nerfs for anything they see as better than what they are using, and its honestly annoying, especially as a pve player that like where things are right now(besides with like scouts because i loved using them in D1 and it saddens me that they suck ass now)

[@carter3567]

Hard disagree on top tree dawnblade being anything better than decent in PvE. When the gameplay shown is against lost sector mobs that die when you look at them, then it’s going to look insane, but try using it in a GM nightfall or a raid, or even a high tier nightmare hunt. Your melee won’t kill a group of mobs like in the video, and then you’ll quickly get sniped out of the sky. Also as a console player, zipping around the map isn’t something that’s a major problem, at least not that I’ve noticed. Plus, aiming while in the air on console has always come off as more difficult than on pc, but I might be wrong on that. But top tree definitely doesn’t need a nerf in PvE, it’s not viable for much other than playlist strikes and lost sectors like shown the video.

[@willsics7203]

As a console player it is still pretty easy to kill people while in the air with top tree, and so for someone on the ground who doesn’t think to look in the air every gunfight it can be super oppressive

[@eggplant8214]

i play on pc and the aiming in the air really isnt a problem in my eyes. you are extremely open to getting shot at when chilling in the air like that. i agree with you with the pve part though. besides in normal content top tree dawnblade is practically useless. doesnt stop me from using it though lol

[@evanl2058]

I would love to see Datto talk with Cammy on the current state of the sandbox

[@ExplosiveFilms2007]

Great points as usual, Datto! I agree on everything except Top Tree Dawn - it's super fun, offers beautiful synergy possibilities, and requires skill to use well so I don't mind losing to it in PvP. Rather than nerfing Top Tree Dawnblade, Bungie should buff the other worse Warlock subclasses.

[@imagoloop4819]

When I heard that they are trying to morph d2 back into d1. I got so excited

[@IDECIDETHETRUTH]

Why? Honestly uh... PvP past from the April Update of Y2 forward sucked.

[@lorentzdriver4048]

Virgin mountaintop Chad fighting lion Ok truthteller Ok orewings

[@catinusz.4741]

but don't forget mountaintop+fighting lion, that is always something doable as long as mountaintop exists or fighting lion use primary

[@macrochaos]

a fellow follower of the lion's gospel

[@kitanat9944]

Not gonna lie, I respect people who can get good with special grenade launchers besides Mountaintop, but I just hate all grenade launchers in PvP. So damn annoying.

[@veggilman8621]

@@kitanat9944 lol I use blinding nades quick access sling and cerberus

[@kabriii]

@@veggilman8621 Absolutely chad. I use Fighting Lion and Silicon Neuroma, with armamentarium and pulse nades

[@magnusnaisu]

Any time they add something fun to pve Datto: Lets tone it back

[@blakesmith5051]

I find myself disagreeing with Datto almost every time when it comes to balance. Except for the auto loading meta, that was busted lol

[@buser99]

I think pve is fine it's fun most fun I've had in d2 in a long time in these past seasons I disagree with him massively

[@Sohelanthropus]

Fun to PVE? My man, I don't know what your sense of "fun" is but not having a challenge at all and all being a cake walk isn't "fun" for me PVE is easy and boring and we need a nerf to make it more challenging and fun again, more intriguing.

[@konradfletcher6311]

@@Sohelanthropus like d1 at launch

[@Someguy1357]

@@Sohelanthropus Really? Have you played a Master or GM nightfall? That's the only challenging content in this game, since difficulty modifiers aren't a thing for Raids or Gambit.

[@FreakingDuck]

In the TWAB dated 5/21/2020 it was stated that Hand cannon archetypes, sniper rifle zoom and adaptive auto rifles (gnawing hunger, summoner, galliard etc.) were going to get looked at. It it said that "Our current goal is to touch on these in Season 12, but we’ll be sure to let you know if plans change". So I expect some news on that whenever we get updates about the sandbox. Biggest pain point for me is the upgrade economy, cause fully masterwork gear is just too expensive. Builds are fun and, in some cases, very stat dependent. As a solo player the process of getting the materials needed just takes too long. Plus, with sunsetting you effectively need to futureproof your builds/gear/stat splits. That means more grinding for on-season, perfect to semi-perfect gear in all categories, while also needing the materials for it. I speculate this will become a challenge with Stasis, since it directly affects your stats. So if there is a killer pve/pvp build for Stasis, you're going to need the stats for it, which means you need the gear, which means you need the materials and so on. Lastly congratulations on your marriage, be happy and stay safe.

[@themanincharge]

Honestly, this video was pretty reasonable about the different issues and possible upcoming changes. Nice job datto

[@michaelrud4351]

They shouldn't touch top tree dawn, its perfect. It is what they should hold as a rubric for tweaking the other subclasses. Great neutral game and a decent super.

[@hypernoxious]

Lmao nooo

[@YuriG03042]

amazing neutral, decent super. it's just too good

[@michaelrud4351]

@@YuriG03042 no, the others are just too bad. They need to buff others to make them better/more fun. No nerf the only fun one

[@andrewhoffman1087]

@@michaelrud4351 Exactly: buff first. And THEN, if it's still busted, THEN come talk to me about nerfs. Because if they nerf top tree Dawn blade, the ONLY good PvP Warlock class, Titans need to see the nerf as well. I'm DONE getting one hit by that class as they rush around a corner. I don't even get to trade when I'm using a shotgun! They just kill everything. But apparently that's fair and balanced. God, I hate Titans.

[@jmax5852]

@@andrewhoffman1087 yeah titans literally are dumb bro

[@AymenDZA]

Spectral blades is on another level of broken, I'd go as far as to say that it's the only broken super in PVP now that bottom-tree striker and Nova warp are nerfed

[@mr.faceless1351]

As I hunter main I will agree with you. The only complaint is that it had bad hit detection sometimes , but when it does count it's broken

[@rkoplitz]

The hit detection on it is pretty trash. That and it can be easily and consistently outran on console.

[@Akunn004]

Sentinel Shields hit detection is still bad also.

[@spicygoodness6928]

Honestly if we put that super just a bit more in line, i think it will make a huge difference. When I mean a little, I mean make them just a tad squishier

[@user-dc9xh2os6h]

@@Akunn004 but what abilities does sentinel really have thought any of the trees. Most of it isn’t good for pvp

[@Deathtizity]

03:52 you can also say that to hunters with their jumps and dodges that can literally restart an encounter. I also think new archetypes are needed on guns.

[@regex2660]

Never thought someone would say "Mountaintop" and "learning curve" in the same sentence, until now

[@Spike2276]

The learning curve of learning thaf it has no curve, thus making it an infinite range shotgun, that's it you have now accrued all the knowledge required to use it

[@howardy8333]

Damn rocking the off white hoodie. When did Datto become a hypebeast??!!

[@tylerflint8989]

I disagree with the takes on movement options. While I understand, I think having these kind of tech makes the high end game play interesting. It's why halo 2 is till so popular from things like speedrunning, tech like sword flying makes it rewarding.

[@Spike2276]

He meant the movement on PvP, and i mostly agree since that degree of movement is only ever in one class and the maps don't seen to agree with it a lot If Bungie gave every class that much mobility and made some maps to support it then i'd be all about it

[@SunSun-sk4si]

Concerning Gambit, the fact that I can drop a Well as soon as envoys are down and am _consistently_ able to kill Primeval at as few as 1-2 stacks of slayer (with a lil' help from my teammates) _even in the middle of an invasion_ is incredibly dumb. Even more so the fact that it's a consistent melt from 100% on second phase in Prime (assuming you rolled the 2/3 chance of getting a close well). I've literally just resorted to throwing my face at the primeval whenever I'm playing with my fireteam while they get ready for anti-invade, and hell it'd be even *easier* to melt if my teammates just hid and didn't contest the invader, thus denying any potential healing for the primeval. EDIT: Did some testing, we can literally kill primeval in roughly 10 secs at 0 stacks of prime slayer, with Weapons of Light, Oppressive, and three swords... It's dumb.

[@quennedr1]

I really hope they don’t change top tree dawn. Like you said it is one of the most fun if not THE most fun subclasses in the game. I’m not saying it’s not overturned but Bungie is notorious for nerfing things into the ground and I would hate for the subclass to be completely killed off.

[@sebastianturner2458]

I just want the floatiness reduced, either by weakening the ability or reducing the availability of grenades. It's really fun to play as, but no fun at all to play against. Like, make it harder to just stay in the sky gliding around for 3 consecutive gunfights. Everything else can stay.

[@xjj2001]

agreed, we finally have a subclass that has a high skill ceiling and now everyone starts complaining...

[@mutantraze3681]

Having spectral be buffed in PvE would be nice so it could be an actual option in it instead of the tether/nighthawk lock on

[@Spike2276]

What is it with hunter knife supers being great in PvP and complete shit in PvE

[@generalkenobidaily4642]

To quote someone on one of Cammycake’s videos: On console, it’s not because 600rpm autos are overpowered, it’s more like they’re the only viable option, since flinch against hand cannons

[@cryw1092]

I wouldn't consider these movement options or top tree dawnblade to be a problem. They are fun. I'd rather something fun stay instead of giving it the bat because of PvP like so many other fun things.

[@andrewhoffman1087]

I'd love for this to be the top comment: 110% agree.

[@Spike2276]

If every class could keep up then it'd be fine, but much like titan skating in D1 the icarus dash makes warlocks so much more mobile than other classes to the point of where it's hard to compete

[@Spike2276]

@Solemn Solace in the ground? Yes. Absolutely. 100%. In the air? Warlocks are just too fast man, it's not even funny how they can outrun hunters

[@niklien8815]

The point being made is Top tree can get to where it wants to go at such a fast paste that no other class or character can do even remotely come close to that.

[@DURTYMYK3]

@@Spike2276 but at the same time, you cannot take cover in the air. you cannot use a rift in the air. being in the air usually just makes you a better target. there is a risk involved, which is why you need to be able to move. now i would probably agree that the momentum conservation could use some tuning, for the class to work as intended there has to be some sort of benefit to being completely exposed. the hunter dodge giving actual I-frames (or what seriously feels like it at times) takes no risk, just tapping a button twice. The game has become slightly more vertical in its playstyle since Top Tree got reworked, and I for one am glad for that. Changing how to approach angles has been an interesting lesson, and one that can only benefit players

[@GFlight.916]

Twilight Garrison's absence is a continuous crime against Titans.

[@fracmusic8095]

When Warlocks finally have some good abilities. EVERYONE complains. That's why Handheld was made unuseable.. There are about 2 good subclasses for pvp for warlocks. And Hunters and Titans have at least 3 or 4 each.

[@basedlibertyprime]

Lol keep crying

[@spyrothedragon091]

Bro what are you talking about handhelds took literally no skill lmao

[@hardfugoo1]

There’s a difference between good and having literally every top tier tool at your disposal near constantly.

[@fracmusic8095]

@@basedlibertyprime You are not a Warlock main I see. Would be a shame if the other classes were brought down to Warlock level wouldn't it?

[@fracmusic8095]

@@spyrothedragon091 Agreed, but now there is no value in that subclass for pvp. The didnt just nurf, they destroyed.

[@stonks_lord7222]

Even if datto listed the the main problematic elements of the current sandbox, the problem of the lack of weapon diversity needs to be mentioned : wheter you're playing survival/osiris or just wanna chill in quickplay, you'll always face the same loadouts again and again like spare ration/dire promise (which are basically the same thing), felwinter's lie, revoker, beloved, gnawing hunger/summoner (which are once more the same weapons) not to mention exotic armors ... What really pisses me off is that there're like 500+ weapons in the game (but yeah most of them are not competitive at all) but still people are scared to use something different/original. You'll never encounter someone playing with a 140rpm hand-canon, a slug shotgun (weapons that need a huge buff compared to classical ape shotguns btw) or any other sniper than the two i mentioned before because they're completely outplayed by the dominant weapon archetype. Bungie really needs to deeply review their sandbox adjusments by not just buffing one archetype of weapon living all other weapons useless.

[@Spike2276]

Agree with everything except slug shotty buff, they be hella good already, people just don't like finnessing

[@macchristensen2508]

I got a chuckle when at around 5:32 you said “22 mountaintop shots by the way” behind your voiceover.