Music Chat: Did Simon Rattle Make Any Great Recordings in Birmingham?

[@oolongoolong789]

You might be mostly right about Simon Rattle's CBSO recordings, though I very much enjoy his Turangalila, Symanowski and Grainger discs. But with Rattle's CBSO years it's very much a case of "you had to be there". I was living in Birmingham when Rattle's reputation in the city was stellar and deservedly so. I attended many of his CBSO concerts and he nearly always presented a refreshingly modern and adventurous programme. It's doubtful that anyone else in the UK outside of London was performing works by Ives, Varese, Messiaen, Schnittke, Maxwell Davies, Dusapin, Knussen, Maw, Takemitsu, Turnage, etc.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I don't doubt that. He was a local hero and I have no desire to minimize his achievements on the ground.

[@AdamCzarnowski]

The Gramophone has a lot to answer for.

[@morrigambist]

The main representation of Rattle in my collection is the Mahler 10 from Bournemouth. It gives off an air of discovery.

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

Rattle's Bournemouth Mahler 10 was a great performance, and I think considerably better than his BPO version.

[@stuartclarke4683]

Agree, it's really scary stuff - you're staring into the abyss

[@brtherjohn]

A very fine performance. Only the violins are lacking a bit.

[@braddalton1]

This is the greatest Mahler 10 of them all to me. It is overlooked and one of my desert island disc. The BPO version feels stale in comparison. Buy it!

[@pianomaly9859]

The only Rattle disc I ever purchased, but the opening violins (?) statement..............so many degrees of dynamic between PP and PPPP. Even the earlier recordings Mitropoulos or Adler didn't get that kind of subtlety.

[@G.v.5049]

So cooooool again, David. You always make my day‼️

[@banginghats2]

I saw Rattle conduct the CBSO at the Proms several times. I really enjoyed all those performances, especially Beethoven's Ninth, which was incredibly uplifting and went down very well with the audience. An amazing experience. I think it was just a couple of weeks before he left for the BPO.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Glad you enjoyed it, but your personal experiences are irrelevant to the question of the value of his recordings.

[@banginghats2]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Absolutely, I don't own any recordings he's made, so I'm completely clueless on those, I was just making the point that he was very good live in case anyone was interested.

[@benjaminwaters3980]

Yes! final movement of the Stabat Mater just knocked me over back when I first got this disk. A glorious work. Szymanowski deserves to be played more.

[@borisivanchev6168]

Thanks for the informative video! I guess this CBSO Rattle box is on the whole not worth the price unfortunately. Are you considering doing a video on his Berlin box? I am contemplating if I should buy it, because it looks like it has some interesting stuff and the price per CD is decent. For example, I saw your videos on Rachmaninoff's The Bells and Symphonic dances and his recordings were your top choices (unfortunately they are not available outside the box, at least where I live). The Brahms symphony cycle and the Dvorak tone poems also seem quite fine. It is all very well recorded and it looks like it has some fun and interesting repertoire - the whole Tchaikovsky Nutcracker, Shostakovich 1 and 14, Liszt Faust symphony, the whole Bizet Carmen and Beethoven Fidelio, Brahms requiem, Schoenberg Gurrelieder and others, so I was wondering what's your take on the performances and do you think the box is worth the money? I would be very interested in watching a video, exploring Rattle's Berlin legacy, or reading a reply in the comments if you don't want to make a whole video about it!

[@scottweaverphotovideo]

The Jazz Album was terrific. Love every track.

[@davidmayhew8083]

I only had a couple of his recordings so I'll defer to you. But, one of them was Betnstein's "Our Town". I THINK that was the title but sometimes I get alittle confused because it's been many years. It was very good!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Wonderful Town, and it was good.

[@salt_cots]

I'm so glad you mention Paavo Berglund and the Helsinki orchestra. I loved the 4+7 which came out in 1984/5. I hadn't realised EMI had "changed gear".

[@stephenmichael4636]

Thank you, Mr. Hurwitz! Well done, indeed. I flatter myself that this is your response to my request for a video on The Rattle Myth.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You bet!

[@ScotPeacock]

I get the feeling your gripe has more to do with the UK music press and the hype than it does with Rattle himself. I do agree about his Szymanowski. I also have that set. King Roger is stunning; but I do think he also did some other real belters in his earlier days in Birmingham. Yes, I think he got a little too fussy in Berlin, but then so did Abbado. Rattle’s CBSO recordings I really rate are: -Mahler 2 (even after Klemperer, Tennstedt live, Bernstein, I still go back to the Rattle) -Mahler 10 (I preferred it to the Berlin recording) -Sibelius 5 (perhaps a tad quick, but there’s a beautiful catharsis in this recording that’s hard to hear elsewhere, to my ears). -Adams’ Harmonielehre, which blasted de Waart’s SF recording -Haydn symphonies 60, 70 & 90 -Stravinsky Firebird, full ballet

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

Sorry to be pedantic but his earlier Mahler 10 (which I also greatly prefer to his BPO version) was with the Bournemouth rather than Birmingham orchestra, unless I've missed something! That's a fantastic performance by the way! I think Rattle is a fine conductor (I've heard him play live with the CBSO, and it was great) unfortunately I think he was excessively hyped-up by the British music press and many of his recordings turned out not that significant in the long run. I do have to disagree about the Adams' though - Rattle is good but I think de Waart has a certain authority in that work, but to be honest now Tilson Thomas has them both beat!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, the problem is with Rattle himself. Bad is bad. Bad promoted as great is even worse.

[@ScotPeacock]

Keith Parmenter Of course it was the BSO! Thanks for reminding my withered memory.

[@ScotPeacock]

Keith Parmenter Haven’t heard the TT Harmonieliehre. Another one on the list.

[@stuartclarke4683]

@@DavesClassicalGuide That comment is really unfair. He's not a 'bad' conductor in any sense of the word. Do you honestly feel he'd be able to get away with conducting the BPO or LSO if he didn't know his stuff? They'd find him out in minutes. He certainly has a 'style' whether you like or not - and he'd definitely have cued you accurately in that Schubert 1-in-a bar. If you want bad promoted as great try Sinopoli

[@littlejohnuk]

I'm glad someone else said this. I find Rattle a bit of an overhyped sanctimonious bore muntering like a woke Karen - with similar results in his conducting. I sent this video to Alex Phillips on GB News who thinks the same. I wonder if she watched it. However, you highlighted his Symanowski and it was quite a revelation. I listened to it on my Bose bluetooth and it really galvanised me to clean the kitchen. It was his 4th symphony.

[@stephenjcarr1]

Surely the Mahler 2nd qualifies as an exception - people still care about it, and it still gets referred to in reviews of other performances. Even gets rated higher than his M2 with the BPO. Its one of Tony Duggan's favorites

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, it doesn't, with all due respect to Mr. Duggan.

[@stephenjcarr1]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Waiting for your Best Mahler 2 video

[@stephenjcarr1]

and less than a day later .....

[@eugenetzigane]

Yes! His Szymanowski IS great! It was exactly what I was thinking at the beginning of this video.

[@eugenetzigane]

@@hectorberlioz1449 don't know those. I'll check them out. I wouldn't be surprised as Dorati was brilliant and very underrated. He was also my teacher's teacher. Do you know Dorati's Nutcracker with Concertgebouw? It's hands down the best recording of that piece ever made. Thanks for the tip about the Detroit recordings.

[@ahartify]

Yes, I agree - he usually leaves me cold and unmoved, rather like Lang Lang. But the Mahler 2 years back was pretty spot on, with all the right phrasing.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Oh heavens no. It sucked in all kinds of ways.

[@mihohobaba]

@@DavesClassicalGuide It's all very subjective. I really like his Mahler 2 with CBSO. There are others that I prefer, and there are others that I think really suck.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@mihohobaba You can prefer some of the ones that really suck too, as here. There's no shame in it.

[@abdulramoni8075]

Why would you not recommend Rattle/ CBSO Walton 1st?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Because it sucks.

[@oscarignacioolavarriaaquev8363]

I remember only 2 recordings that could be remarkables: the Sibelius 1rst symphony (your preferred!), similar to Ashkenazy-Philharmonia version and also the Simon rattle's version of the Elgar's violin concerto with Nigel Kennedy, excelent orchestral accompaniment!

[@mickeytheviewmoo]

Looking at my cd collection i have no rattle recordings. Not sure if this is a coincidence. Saying that, i do not have any Nigel Kennedy cds as well. I only say because he is a Aston Villa Fan and comes from Birmingham. No one talks about Nigel these days.

[@edgordon8186]

I basically agree with your overall assessment of Sir Simon, but I do remember one performance of the few I've heard him do. It was a Saturday matinee at the Concertgebouw and consisted of Haydn's SEASONS. I had long been in love with the 'other' oratorio of Papa Haydn (the CREATION), but in numerous recordings of the SEASONS, I just could not grasp it as being nearly in the same league as CREATION . . . until Rattle and his soloists brought it to life on that sunny Saturday in Amsterdam. But as you have always said, in a way, if you roll the dice enough times, you'll eventually land 'box cars', and Simon did it on this occasion. The SEASONS was totally NOT boring.

[@juliuszm8563]

Dave when will you make some videos dedicated just to Szymanowski? What do you thing about the symphonies cycle with Gergev and LSO?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I just did his quartets.

[@Wolfcrag85]

The only Rattle/CBSO recording I possess is a Holst/Britten pairing of The Planets/Sinfonia da Requiem. How would you rate these?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

OK. Not bad, but not special--and that's the problem with most of this stuff.

[@johnmorrissey46]

I love your videos and your humour. I think you go over the top a bit here though in my view. I don’t get your point that because a lot of his recordings aren’t considered “the best” They’re not worth having? That would eliminate 90 percent of all recordings available! I don’t know about you but I’m also not sitting around the dinner table discussing Robert Shaw’s Verdi Requiem!’ Haha. Cheap shot. I agree with the guy who thinks you have beef with the british music press. I’m sure justifiably! It makes for entertaining watching. Keep it up!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That is not my point (re: Rattle). My point is that he has not name a name for himself in any specific repertoire is a way that is generally recognized. For example, Abbado's Rossini was always special. What is special about Rattle? It doesn't have to be the "greatest," only noteworthy is some measurable way. As for the British press, like many here I grew up listening to them, and only later realized that I was getting a terribly biased and provincial perspective as a result. When I began reading French and German, my world changed (and paying more attention to my American colleagues too).

[@johnmorrissey46]

David Hurwitz Gotcha. I may be biased I grew up going to his concert in the town hall in Birmingham. Then I moved to London and was really disappointed in the sound of the orchestras. He did real wonders with them. Did that always transplant on to recordings? Probably not.Should’ve declared my interest! I do love the Resurrection symphony.though. I agree about aspects of the British press and I love your comments about the penguin guide. The number of recordings I bought and thought “I don’t like it is there something wrong with me? “Ha ha . I guess in a publication that big there had to be some howlers. You’ll be pleased to know that while on lockdown in London I’ve walked my little French bulldog round the park to some of your recommendations. The Sinopoli Bruckner 3 . The Tennstedt Eroica . Love them.

[@gabriellaumartins3592]

Hehehehehe!! Yesterday after watched your video about "Daphnis et Chloé" I thought to write that you should include Szymanowski´s Harnasie either!!! Hehehhehe, coincidence!! Great video!! I am watching all of them. Since friday i am addicted now to Antheil first symphony ( gosh, where was my head that i didn´t knew this symphony before ) thanks to you. Thank you very much mr. Hurtwitz and "keep on listening!"

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

My pleasure. Thank you for writing in. Enjoy the videos!

[@TheCastlepoet]

Sleeping late this morning--nothing to do and no place to go--I was in the midst of a marvelous dream: I was Herbert Blomstedt at the Concertgebouw, skipping down the famous stairs toward the podium to conduct the world premier of the Sibelius Symphony No. 8. Suddenly I found myself being rudely shaken awake by Mrs D., who had risen some hours earlier. "Wake up! Wake up!" she cried. "David Hurwitz has posted a video that you have to see right away! 'Did Simon Rattle Make Any Great Recordings in Birmingham?' " I knew the answer to that already, and in a post-slumber stupor was not amused to have been deprived of the rare chance to be Maestro Blomstedt and introduce the Sibelius 8th to the world. Nonetheless, I trudged downstairs (now lacking all Blomstedt's grace and pep) and fired up the laptop in anticipation of the creative bons mots with which David Hurwitz would pepper Sir Simeon... er, Simon, the Rosettekavalier of the Penguin Guide. Bravo, sir! (All that's missing is mention of SR's unforgettable recordings of Elgar's "Funeral March from 'Grania and Diarmid' " and Sibelius's "Scene with Cranes.") As one who, in an earlier life, was bamboozled by the endless encomia heaped upon Rattle's early recordings of Holst, Mahler, Nielsen, Sibelius, etc., by the Gramophone and Penguin Guide, I relish the wit and humor with which you upend received opinion. I look forward to a sequel in due course ("Sir Simon--The Berlin Years"). By the way... For those whose Rattlemania isn't sated by "The CBSO Years," there's also a supplementary 15-cd box titled "Simon Rattle and his Soloists--The CBSO Years," as well as a box of five DVDs titled "Sir Simon Rattle Conducts & Explores Music of The 20th Century" (all with the CBSO). David, if you haven't done so already, read the content descriptions of each of the discs in the DVD series (on the back of the box, as shown on Amazon) -- they are a hoot! Now, back to Blomstedt... even if only in this waking life. ~ John Drexel

[@TheCastlepoet]

@@garygringo7786 The Australian Knappertsbusch Association offers a comprehensive correspondence course in which they teach you to write like this. But it's not as easy as it looks--it involves hours and hours of study... and practice, practice, practice... ~ J.D.

[@tonysaloway8686]

His Shostakovich 4th was ELECTRIFYING! How can you just give it a ho-hum dismissal?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Easy. It was a ho-hum performance.

[@samuelstephens6163]

Tony, absolutely agreed. Rattle makes the Shostakovich 4 a delightful, menacing atomic-age madcap experiment.

[@boltonreidy]

I remember at the time lots of reviews of Rattle recordings all saying he was consistently disappointing in comparison to his live performances. But I still listen to the Nicholas Maw pretty regularly.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I saw more than my share of his live performances with the CBSO too. They were worse.

[@massawax]

@@DavesClassicalGuide most over-rated conductor after the Norrington bunch. A void, vain and narcissistic marketeer.. Pedestrian and perfunctory sounding (when at his best).

[@ianstafford2218]

Gosh. Didn’t realise that Rattle was a waste of time. He seems so convincing and professional when he’s rehearsing on those TV clips. Rather like Spurs perhaps: always threaten to win the league but never actually do. So, please tell me, who do you think are the best conductors around? Marin Alsop? Vasily Petrenko? Steven Grahl? Thanks for this fascinating video.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I take each performance as it comes. To continue the sports analogy, no one bats 1000.

[@David-pt8ge]

I feel at best ambivalent about Rattle. I am not sure his tenure at the LSO has been setting the London music alive, but it does seem a bit of a sport of London audiences and critics to not get particularly behind some major music directors, eg Gergiev, Welser Most, Rattle, Dutoit and Sinoopoli for instance. As you mention, the recordings do have to be set in the context of the CBSO being in the doldrums before Rattle joined. And Rattle live was quite exciting in those days. Also, even though some of the recordings are a bit hit and miss, the fact that EMI got behind an orchestra and did not force them to put out the same tiny repertoire of the same symphonies as everybody else, was something to be lauded. And I am sure these recordings played a major role in getting Rattle the top job at Berlin. I have enjoyed him in a few operas, Wagner and Mozart particularly, but I do always have reservations on his orchestral work. And I do wish, he would not do the buy one get one free approach to casting his wife in everything he can. Thank you for the review. Have just recently found your videos and am enjoying the content.

[@tarakb7606]

Couldn't agree more. One the most ridiculously overhyped conductors I can think of. How he got the Berlin job is beyond me.

[@martinhaub2602]

Never one of my favorite conductors to be sure, but the Percy Grainger disk, In a Nutshell, from Birmingham was revelatory when it came out and it still is thrilling.

[@allthisuselessbeauty-kr7]

Yeah I like Rattle's Grainger album too, although Richard Hickox's more comprehensive survey of his music is my go to on Chandos

[@brucehunter1115]

Agreed, a fantastic disc and good on him for doing it!

[@cosimagrundkotter906]

Very curious about what you think about the new chief conductor of the Berlin Phils, Kirill Petrenko. Especially since his appointment came as a big surpirse...

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I haven't heard to enough of him to form an impression.

[@damiangruszczynski7451]

You are completely right David about Rattles’ Szymanowski and even if the chorus and soloists in King Roger or especially in Stabat Mater aren’t the greatest Polish pronunciators /but which West chorus or soloist is?/ there are wonderful Szymanowski recording! Ps.you should pronaunce the word: Harnasie with „e” at the end - like in word „e”ver. Harnasie 😉great survey

[@fiawlty]

Can't disagree on the recording front, but you are overlooking his greatest legacy to Birmingham - a world class Concert Hall in which I have heard Ashkenazy and Sakari Oramo conduct some stunning performances! That would never have been built without Rattle's public popularity! I never heard him there but I did hear him conduct a great Resurrection at the Edinburgh Festival in 1980, and a lovely Sibelius 3 in St Asaph in 1981. And I agree with the poster below on His Bournemouth Mahler 10. Maybe he went downhill after that - takes all sorts, and we in the UK have him to thank for the Birmingham Symphony Hall.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

And the bankruptcy that followed his departure...but you're right, he was a local hero and we can't dismiss the efforts he made (successfully) to put Birmingham on the musical map. It's a legacy to be proud of.

[@leedsleeds8091]

@@DavesClassicalGuide it's worth mentioning that after the Hugo Rignold era in Birmingham, Louis Fremaux raised standards incredibly..... check out the EMI Icon box. Rattle inherited a much improved orchestra and Fremaux is rarely given credit. If I had to name just one disc by Fremaux which proves the point, it would be his Walton Facade Suites, etc.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@leedsleeds8091 I've always given him credit.

[@nattyco]

I only have two of his recordings, both early and far better than most of those which followed. They are his Mahler10 with Bournemouth and Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances with the Philharmonia. He was very much a local hero of his time. In Birmingham he was a young, animated, British conductor with a fabulous new concert hall. The perfect combination. He did a lot to promote the arts in the UK but his Berlin years will not be a lasting legacy. Along with Marriner and Previn he could do no wrong in the eyes of British critics of the day.

[@philscott6085]

PS I could never understand how the British (or was it just Gramophone) overrated Rattle while at the same time they seemed to undervalue Vernon Handley? Maybe Handley was an unexciting conductor in concert - I don't know - but he did make some great recordings.

[@leedsleeds8091]

I saw Handley conducting live many times. He was wonderful and while he was receiving rapturous applause, he would invariably hold up the conductor's score and point to it. Completely self-effacing. He never received the knighthood he deserved.

[@anwla]

Oh that was so funny! And I kinda liked the Nielsen 4/Sibelius 5. It introduced me to Nielsen and Sibelius.. I’m wiser now :D

[@thomasvendetti3742]

Would you be interested in reviewing the Monteux Decca box? They are all stereo and give Monteux a chance to show us what he had to offer at the end of Avery long career.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, I know and I have it, so I'll consider it. Thanks.

[@leonier.4248]

David, i´ve been a huge silent fan for while now. I find your videos highly informative and entertaining. I even bought Beethoven Or Bust and its great. Can i ask you to make more profiles of Conductors? Would you start with Klemperer, my favourite?Hugs and thank you again.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I'll certainly think about it. It's a project...! Thank you though, for your very kind message,

[@danemagruder]

Wonderful video and I’m looking forward to the next in this series. I would be interested to hear about your opinions on Alan Gilbert’s various recordings with the New York Philharmonic. Not nearly as many recordings available as Rattle with the CBSO, but certainly enough to formulate an opinion..

[@carlcurtis]

I enjoy his cd of Percy Grainger's music, but I'll admit I have no other performances of Grainger to compare it to. It's also the only cd by Rattle I own.

[@barryguerrero7652]

I thought his Sibelius was truly, 'the emperor's new clothes'.

[@philscott6085]

Ha! I guessed your exception, and you're indisputably right. I also like the War Requiem, the Grainger disc and a couple of his concerto discs: Beethoven Piano 1 & 2 with Lars Vogt, a good Bartok Violin No. 2 with Chung, a good Elgar Violin concerto with Kennedy, and a very fine Walton Cello Concerto with Lynn Harrell. And there is his Porgy and Bess, which has plenty going for it. But as you say, they don't wipe away all competition. I listened to Maw's Odyssey again recently, and though I've had it for years (on the basis of Gramophone raves) I've never gotten fully into it, much as I love some of Maw's other music.

[@the12towers]

Wow! Brutal! Ouch!

[@davidhickey1182]

There is the Peter Maxwell Davies Symphony No. 1 with the Philharmonia, but I am guessing that Davies would be for you a composer similar to Turnage, Ades, and Maw in value?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Less. That's a terrible work--gray and dull.

[@davidhickey1182]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I love the vehemence with which you criticize.

[@etucker82]

Even if Gramophone gave him passes on a lot that he didn't do well, I honestly think he did plenty in the early years that was great. I think 4,5,6,7, and 8 in the Mahler cycle is great, even if that famous 2 is really terrible. I still haven't heard the whole Sibelius cycle but I think the Birmingham is one of the three or so best Sibelius 5's. For John Adams he's still done the best Harmonielehre. The Porgy and Bess is pretty much the best that unlucky work has ever gotten. And I don't quite understand the animus toward his Glagolitic Mass recording, I think it's superb and I'd probably even take his recording of Cunning Little Vixen over Mackerras's. Among Debussy I've only heard the Jeux, and even if it's slow, it's pretty great too in a piece that's had a lot of stinkers over the years. And of course, the Szymanowski is fantastic.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

The Porgy is really poor--sorry--but of course you can like what you like.

[@etucker82]

​@@DavesClassicalGuide Robert Levine seems to be on my side, but truth be told I'm not quite as keen on Rattle as I used to be, like you I can point to just as many clunkers. even though I still think he's an excellent 9/10 conductor who can sometimes be erratic and dull. But he's given a couple of the greatest live performances I've ever heard (a Mahler 6 with Philadelphia at Carnegie is the best performance I ever expect to hear of it, if the social distancing era is over by next May he's coming back to give Mahler 6 with the LSO at Geffen and you should absolutely catch it.). As you've pointed out many times, the record industry has their 'products' and the artists they choose to promote have almost nothing to do with their talent or insight. Some of the elected stars have to develop completely in the limelight, and end up fundamentally great by the time they're 60 or so, but only because by 60 they've finally learned the music and have paid the price many times over for showing up unprepared, and in the meantime every failure along the way gets documented, and they're a complete waste of shelf. Barenboim is the most obvious example from today and I suspect that erratic talents like Nelsons and Dudamel will have a similar trajectory. I suspect the LSO is pretty much an ideal orchestra for Rattle's level of talent and achievement and the repertoire he does most often, and long as he stays in London I suspect matters will improve from Berlin, where he never should have been. He should have gone to Philadelphia or Boston where they'd have treated him like a hero and he could have done a lot more diverse repertoire than Big Five orchestras usually get.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@etucker82 I agree, in the main, with what you say, although the idea of Rattle at the helm of one of the "big five" fills me with dread. I heard him live many times and they were some of the worst concerts I have ever endured. I remember in particular an espically vile complete Ravel Daphnis (without the chorus) coupled to a dreadful Nielsen 3rd with his (then) wife mangling the vocalise in the second movement. But I don't care about his live concerts at all unless I specify that. I'm talking about recordings, because that is going to be our communal experience of his artistry, and a great many of them are really bad, or simply irrelevant. As for Porgy, take a serious look at Bob's review. He's an opera guy and 90% of his concern is for the singing, not the conducting. About Rattle he notes, "If there is a criticism to be made, it is about Simon Rattle’s leadership: he leads this not-very-subtle score with even less subtlety." It goes downhill from there. Look: everyone has their good and bad moments. Even the worst conductor does great work now and then, so i'm not moved by the old "well, I saw a great concert on (Day) in (Year)." That's not news, especially because no one can listen and form their own opinion if they weren't there. But records are physical evidence.

[@etucker82]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I understand, I just don't think the recorded legacy is as bad as all that. He's no Mackerras or Monteux where just about everything is gold. But when I compare Rattle to the dull shallowness of so many in the preceding jet-set generation: Maazel, Previn, Ozawa, Mehta, Dutoit (and those are just the worst offenders...), Rattle is so many light years ahead of them that I can understand how some critics back then must have viewed a musician like him who had real ideas (however good or bad) as manna from heaven. In retrospect, no he wasn't quite that great, but I do think he's a very real musician with very real achievements.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@etucker82 Everyone you list is far superior to Rattle.

[@scagooch]

I remember reading the review of his bruckner 7 in gramophone. I stopped reading because they never mentioned the music. "how will he tackle the adagio how will he tackle the religious aspect" i didn't go any farther.

[@jygordon]

I haven't heard the Szymanowski - I should. Other than that, I have good memories of the Rattle/CBSO Schoenberg First Chamber Symphony. That's about it.

[@gaylelinney180]

I thought long and hard about this... and you are right! Apart from his John Adams and maybe some of the Bartok and Szymanowski and the minor Britten, none of Simon Rattle's Birmingham recordings would be my first choice. I also agree with some of your commenters that he is better live than on records, but that is not helpful when discussing those records.

[@antwerpsmerle1404]

John Adams? For me, he’s final feeble gasp of a failed musical genre called minimalism. Steve Reich wrote some interesting stuff. Philip Glass tried to extend the genre into opera with limited success. John Adams writes derivative dross that doesn’t deserve to be performed. Tune in next week for more rants about composers whose music I hate, starting with Henry Purcell.....

[@andrewwyndham4629]

You seem to suggest that EMI stopped recording the Sibelius cycle with Berglund in order to record Rattle's cycle. But Berglund's cycle was not only completed but was the second that EMI recorded with Berglund. I would also add that Rattle is much better live than on disc.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I saw Rattle do Sibelius live. It sucked too. And EMI paused in releasing the Berglund/Helsinki cycle in order to release Rattle's, recording dates notwithstanding. Finally, I (and everyone else in the world) know that it was his second Sibelius cycle for EMI, but this new one was digital and the older one (at the time) out of circulation.

[@josepholeary3286]

A big shot in the Philharmonie in Berlin said: "Everything Rattle plays leaves me cold."

[@s28101]

Is it a product af recording history. I, and I think others like to be a fan of this magican people, who makes this magic music comes alive in our private concert hall? If you become a fan, you buy more, the record compagny knows. ??? And then back to Sweet Simon, I bought a lot (Gramophone? Yes). For years I have tried to love them, but it don’t work. About 2-3 months ago, I saw and listened to a concert where Rattle and the LSO played Schönberg and Beethoven IX. After 10 minutes af the IX, my wife left the room. I stayed because I want to know what happened. It gets worse and worse. Stop go, stop go pause, there was that little variation. In the finale, I looked at the face of the choir, they where in paine. Then I left too, looking for my wife. She was safe. Times they are changing, every day. Rattle is not the only one. Within a month I saw and hear Daniel Harding and Paris make Mahler 2 & 4, the first conductor to make childrens toy out of it?. Where are Honeck, Vänska going? Is this the trend now? I could go on, but I still love when the magic happens. And it just happened, the sweet postman came with a small pack, just one cd, Zinman, Bronfman, Mörk, Shaham. I got tripled and septepted. Thanks Mr. Hurwitz, you are a great inspiration. And I love your passionate writing and talking. I not always agree, but you know, what you are talking about. Great! Greetings from Odense (we have a fine orchestra), and my music inspiration came from living in Carl Nielsens small village, for over 30 years. (Sorry - my english could be bettered).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Your English is fine--much better than my Danish, and I appreciate your taking the time to share your experiences with me and everyone here!

[@stuartclarke4683]

Lots of spleen being vented here about Rattle and the Gramophone magazine. Don't think Gramophone said those things word for word, actually. Let's be fair, some of Rattle's recordings have won international prizes, so internationally there are obviously critics who rate his stuff and don't, therefore, fit this 'consensus' you're talking about. His Mahler 2 still gets a mention in most programs on the subject for example - yours excepted. It's true, of course, that he made a lot of records at Birmingham, but presumably that was because EMI thought they could sell the records - they're a business after all. Then again, there are probably too many releases of standard repertoire anyway. I agree actually, that he's over-rated and has become far too preoccupied with detail at the expense of the big picture. I still enjoy some of his records from Brum. I really like his recordings of the Sibelius 3 and Sibelius 6 for example. Also, I feel his version of the Oceanides is the best out there, even more evocative than Ormandy's luxury version. And personally, I really enjoy his CBSO coupling of the Rite and Apollo. And yes the Szymanowski records are superb and wonderfully recorded. The cynic in me wonders if they'd have been financed at all if Rattle hadn't been doing them. So, that's a good thing. Anyway, enough of the bile. I really enjoy these broadcasts and will subscribe, but please lay off with the Brit bashing.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

What Brit bashing? Simon Rattle and Gramophone magazine represent the heart and soul of that which is Britain? This is something I honestly don't understand. I go after Rattle because he makes lousy records and Gramophone for praising them anyway; the fact that they are British is irrelevant. It's like saying that because I think Vänskä and Minnesota mostly suck I'm bashing Finland and the United States (and Sweden, since they record for BIS). It's nonsense. I've spent a goodly part of my career praising British artists, labels, and ensembles. So please. Anyway, you've got to let me have a little fun, even at their expense. I suspect they can take a little ribbing here and there.

[@stuartclarke4683]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Ribbing? OK. As a 'Brit', I can only tell you how it comes across. I'm all in favour of fun and opinion. However, I do think that Rattle is a musician through and through - that's what he's thinking about 24 hours a day, every day. That's why he was 'conducting' the Rite with his family when he was a toddler in Liverpool. I don't hold a candle for him, I prefer older recordings mostly; but having season tickets for his first seasons at Birmingham, when Neeme Jarvi was also conducting, is something I'll always be grateful for.

[@josepholeary3286]

@@DavesClassicalGuide There is something annoying about Rattle's British personality that carries over into his manhandling of German and French music.

[@WolfGratz]

@@josepholeary3286 Well at least as a lowly Brit that comment wasn't irritating at all. Much.

[@Horichdaslicht1858]

I cannot help but wonder what Mr. Hurwitz's view would be if Leonard Slatkin were British, and Simon Rattle, American

[@richardgraber9077]

Completely agree the few recordings I have listened too with this orchestra and the one time I heard them at Carnegie are faceless, basically. I don't think there's anything wrong with him recording for example the Debussy and Ravel stuff as he does this music generally well, maybe a few other things too but the quantity of recordings is way too much for the quality we ultimately get.

[@murraylow4523]

I predicted the answer would be Szymanowski, which, as I’m not the only one, suggests your view is not merely a grumpiness re. Gramophone etc. Certainly U.K. musical life would have been different and maybe poorer had Rattle’s tenure at Birmingham not happened (particularly the championing of 20th century repertoire) but the effects of that, not really the recording legacy, is probably what has mattered. I can’t think of a Berlin recording by him that matters, I really can’t, and his repertoire became more boring (as recorded) than before. I used to entertain the theory that these big name conductors tended generally to get more boring when they ascended to the top orchestras. Janssons another case in point (and Claudio). But as you point out that’s not really the case in general.

[@bernardohanlon3498]

David, greetings from the Penal Colonies. Bravo! Why stop at Birmingham? His reign in Berlin was equally woeful. That Beethoven 8th with the Berliners should be celebrated for being as bad as it is!!!!

[@johns9624]

It's perhaps not Rattle himself I object to (aside from the Led Zeppelin hairdo and the 'I love the Wizard of Oz' grin) but Gramophone's slavish reaction to everything he does. I'm grateful to him for Henze 7 because I'm a Henze fan and there's no alternative, and I rather like his recording of Haydn 60, 70 and 90. But I'm allergic to his hyped-to-the-sky recording of Mahler 2. Along with the Barbirolli Mahler 5, a total blind-spot for G magazine. The Rattle Mahler 2 I've never got through without hitting the stop button and turning to something saner. Like, anything.

[@edwinbaumgartner5045]

In fact, I have to disagree with your appreciation of Rattle's version of the "War Requiem". Rattle has had the real bad idea to use in the great chorus boys instead of female voices. This blurs Britten's concept: He used the vocal forces like symbols: The great chorus as through the war suffering people, the male soloists as representatives of "the war", the female soloist as link between earth and heaven and the boys choir as angelic voices. I think, we need not to discuss, how Britten separates the levels or let's them interact, but just at the end, there's the great reconciliation of them all. So, I think, it is essential to use female voices AND boy's voices, not one instead of the other. Just Britten was the composer, who would have used more boy's voices, when he would have liked to. In my opinion, the best "War Requiem"s are the one Britten conducted himself and Ancerl. I must confess, I had tears in my eyes with Ancerl, and got released through his fantastic „Spring Symphony“, the only recording of this piece, which really hast he bright and crisp sound, just a bit as if Mahler would have wrote his Seventh as choral symphony. But, okay, that's me...

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I thought the Ancerl was amazingly good too, considering...

[@josepholeary3286]

In the only live performance I heard of that work, here in Tokyo, the boys' chorus was replaced by girls. Despite that, the final moments when the various forces come together was so moving that the audience were thrown into a trance, something I've never experienced before.

[@edwinbaumgartner5045]

@@josepholeary3286 Girls are okay, in my opinion, if they replace the boys' chorus. But the big chorus needs female voices. It has nothing to do with the sound, but with the composer's concept. It would be the same, as if anyone would have the idea to cast Octavian with a countertenor. Maybe, it works, but it would be very far away from the composer's intention without making things better. That's my point: If a conductor has an idea to help a work in changing a detail, it's okay for me. But it's not okay, if it steers away from the composer's idea. Besides - I was very moved by your description of the publics reaction: I heard the "War Requiem" a few times in Vienna (one very impressive with Jeffrey Tate) and once in Munich with Jansons, and the reaction was always the same: at the end, every one is moved to tears. There are so few composers, which had the power to do that - and Britten did it more often than many. I remember the song of Billy Budd before he gets executed. I confess to have went out in one production, I just couldn't bear it emotionally.

[@JB-dm5cp]

Thank you for your insights, sir. I don’t have any Rattle recordings that I would prefer over other recordings of the same music. I have the whole Rattle Birmingham Mahler cycle. I don’t know why I ever needed to get the complete cycle. Possibly because I was kind of obsessed with Mahler and wanted to get anything and everything new. (Oh dear, how sad, never mind..) I Most I find are bland, and one or two rather “nice”, but the Eighth I think sounds like a joke. Literally. As an aside, I like his Berlin Mahler 10. (But in Mahler 10, I prefer other performances, for example Chailly with the RSO Berlin.)

[@johnwright7749]

I have several favorite Rattle recordings above all his Szymanowski series and also his John Adams, Thomas Ades, Percy Grainger, and Debussy Images. He also accompanied Kyung-Wha Chung very well in Bartok. I don’t think he is any worse or better than many other conductors active today. I clearly prefer his Berlin Phil performances to Kirill Petrenko’s having watched both conduct fairly regularly on the Digital Concert Hall.

[@lovettboston]

At least I agree about the recording of Szymanowski's Stabat Mater and 3rd Symphony. There was a time when some of us in Boston were hoping Rattle would succeed Ozawa with the Boston Symphony Orchestra, and now I'm relieved that didn't work out. Ozawa, Levine, and Nelsons all have their limitations, but they have done at least a certain number of things really well. Rattle's unique in being versatile or eclectic to the point of being overextended and--the word heard most often in this clip--pointless. Maybe there's a cautionary tale here about efforts to engage more people with a body of music, and make it more inclusive. As someone who also listens to other kinds of music, the concept has great appeal for me. But I also want to have it both ways--i.e., I want each performance to be the most idiomatic and the most committed, along with being the most effective--which often ends up as the most deeply grounded in a given territory or culture (yes, there are recordings that make me feel even the BSO isn't French enough). It's the musical equivalent of saying all politics is local. Then again, in Rattle's case, that rule doesn't apply very much with British composers.

[@pauloqueiroz9611]

It took me years and your chat to finally realize what had been lurking in my mind: many of his recordings are indeed mediocre!!! I still like his first Planets with the Philharmonia, maybe because it was my very first🤔 His second with Berlin, though, is a dud! So uninteresting, badly recorded, no sonic presence, not to mention the bunch of asteroids Lol… have enjoyed your videos immensely! Congrats Dave🎉 ditto the Szymanowski, especially King Roger and Sinfonia Concertante

[@peterknight3207]

i went to see rattle play beethovens 3rd symphony in birmingham over 20years ago i was not thrilled

[@egasfuentesfuentes7726]

Well Mr. Hurwitz, I was feeling alone thinking that Sir. Simon was not very talented, all the records I have by him are mediocre. Another untouchable super star that leaves me indifferent is Daniel Baremboim. Nevertheless, if we forgive their egos, both maestros deserve respect for services rendered to the cause of music

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

As long as we don't have to pay for it.

[@josepholeary3286]

@@DavesClassicalGuide In Berlin on the radio I heard the allegretto from Beethoven's Eighth. "Who," I cried, "is massacring this music?" "Sie hörten," the radio replied, "Ludwig van Beethoven, die achte Symphonie, zweiter Satz, allegretto, dirigiert von Sir Simon Rattle."

[@shantihealer]

A boring box but a very entertaining essay, as usual. Thank you! Rattle did a fine 4-movement version of Bruckner 9, only problem was he used an inferior completion by the team that had already produced the best possible completion and thought they could best it. Wrong.

[@davidwyatt850]

That wasn't the only problem with the B9 he did....

[@kevleknuk]

the best Szymanowski! Especially King Roger and Stabat Mater.

[@richardegarr1441]

👍🖖☺️

[@pauljacob9520]

So cruel, so true.

[@nigelsimeone9966]

I read the subject and thought "Szymanowski"! Having watched your video, that's what I'm still saying - and not much else. Frustrating, as there were some terrific concert performances that never quite came off when he took the same pieces into the studio.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

There you go! Great minds think alike!

[@a.k.2363]

I live in Berlin having heard more than 70 live performance of Rattle with the BPO, besides some dozen performances of the BPO with various guest conductors in the Philharmonie. In addition to, I have an abonnement with the digital concert hall and some of his Bruckner, Mahler performances on CD. I am an no expert, just a geeky fan of classical music. Here is my take on Rattle: Rattles interpretations of each and every classical piece was to conduct the similiar transparent, clear sound, no instrument group overpowers the other, every nuance is hearable. Tempi are never on the fast side, crescendo are not building up at full and tuttis are not as massive as they could be. One style fits it all. Rattles style comes across as elegant, but on the other hand as unspectacular towards boring, especially for emotional pieces like some of the later romantic composers. And, of course, the BPO is capable to follow Rattles intentions to the point of excellence. The problem here is, that this style is working for live performances - but not well on most of audio hifi equipment. It would require such an expensive Hifi setup to even get close to the quality of live impression listening to his style. This why some comments on amazon advice to “Tune up the volume” to compensate. So, Hifi is not the real deal here, you wont be able to get those nuances of sound nor the roomly impression of his live concertos. I have heard Rattle with high end to low end Hifi equipment. I guess, to most of home listeners Rattle works OK, but nothing really extraordinary. It was quite interesting to see and hear the BPO in contrast under guest conductors like the late Janson, Dudamel or Senior Blomstedt, best with Noah Bendix-Balgley as First Concertmaster. Or, when Petrenko did his first concerto after he was designated chief conductor, Tchaikovsky 6 (I was in the Philharmonie) you could really also see the difference to Rattle by the musicians in body posture, everything ( I sat on of the chorus benches, which is some yards behind the timpani, same level). The BPO is capable of a signature badass demonic dark but elegant sound, even more to create massive sound walls that rise rapidly over you, these unmatched so quick changes in their play. Rattle never utilized what he had at hand, sadly. Yes, Mr. Hurwitz, on point, samesame in Berlin.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thanks so much for this first-hand perspective.

[@josepholeary3286]

@@DavesClassicalGuide In contrast there's a 35 year old Japanese conductor, Harada, who goes the whole hog, even jumping in the air. His Prokofiev 5 was highly exciting and I hope to hear him in a pot-pourri of Mendelssohn etc. next Sunday, including Yokoyama in a Chopin concerto. Rattle is soporific.

[@bugopolo]

The Shosti 4th is quite good and exiting. The Climaxes are hair razing and there is a transparency of textures at the soft, chamber like moments(you can actually hear the hush tamtam strokes at the end of the 1st movement). Should consider a second (and unprejudiced) listening Love your Chanel Noam

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Why was my listening "prejudiced" because it doesn't agree with your opinion? You should consider some serious comparative listening in real time.

[@kend.6797]

Now I do not feel so bad (not that I would have anyway, I suppose) for having zero Rattle/CBSO recordings in my collection. I do have a number of the Berlin recordings, but I have not even listened to those very often either. I notice you reference Gramophone Magazine in a number of your videos, and of all the publications in bed with the record companies, they are the worst. I wouldn't put any weight into their so-called reviews if my life depended on it. I know you know this, and I am glad that you call them out, not that it matters to them.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Actually, what shocked me most (and I don't know if this is still true) was the fact that they did not permit reviewers to keep the discs they reviewed, making it impossible to amass the necessary discography to give informed opinions--unless the writer had his or her own library. Not all critics are record collectors. I attended a lecture once in London by one very, very famous Gramophone critic in which he played mono LPs of music that had long since appeared on CD in stereo. He had no idea about it, even though the CD in question was on the table next to him in plain sight.

[@kend.6797]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Wow. Very interesting. Thankfully there are still some people around to give honest assessments. And it is reassuring to see the shelves of recordings in your videos. Not sure how one could be a successful critic without also being a collector since comparisons so often come into play. And most people do not have infallible memories and need to refer back from time to time.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@kend.6797 As these videos show, my memory certainly is not infallible, and the problem is that we're in a pandemic and I have another 50 or 60k discs neatly shelved in CT where I cannot easily go at the moment, so I'm stuck with what I have. Fortunately, it's a goodly pile of stuff.

[@kend.6797]

@@DavesClassicalGuide so many discs!!! My collection is sizeable, but pales in comparison. This pandemic is draining. Much of my collection is in storage at the moment, and I have made due with only a portion as well as some new acquisitions that I have on hand. At any rate, it becomes a question of time as I still have a day job, and there is limited free time for me to listen to everything I do have.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@kend.6797 Tell me about it.

[@piano2750]

I entirely agree with Mr Hurwitz about Rattle: i never thought much of him (and I played concertos with people like Fremaux, Iwaki, etc)....however, he did do a wonderful Rite of Spring in Birmingham EMI)....as good as anyone.

[@patrickhows1482]

One of Rattle's most over hyped CBSO performances was Mahler 2, which was a Gramophone Recording of the year. Talk about being underwhelmed. I remember reading an article about the reaction by the Berlin critics to Rattle, he seems to have pretty much split them down the middle, the anti-Rattle critics were known as the rattlesnakes.

[@walkure48]

I loved Mahler's 6th, mainly because it was my first experience with that symphony, and felt the same about the 7th. An interesting fact about the 7th is that Rattle recorded the 7th in the studio but hated the results and convinced EMI to record it live. After that, every Rattle recording went from underwhelming to disappointing and I just gave up on him. Time to rethink that and get me some Szymanowsk!

[@bradwilkins9347]

I enjoy complete box sets the same way I do baseball. If the batter gets a hit every 3 out of 10 tries, he’s pretty good. 🙂 The Salonen Sony box is the only one I’ve been enthusiastic about in part because there is a lot of well-played non-mainstream repertoire. Back to Rattle. I must confess there are at least a few CBSO recordings I have enjoyed. I remember the Rite of Spring as being truly devastating (though probably a little too slow to actually dance to).

[@flexusmaximus4701]

Surely his Mahler resurrection achieved near competency. Although, I ended up giving away that ressurection, and going back to Klemperer. His sibelius, well, I'll stop. Paul G

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Most of his work is competent. Who cares?

[@mahler1mahler148]

I could never understand the press and hype he got. The overwhelming majority of his recordings that I've heard are pallid and sterile with the personality of a lobotomised mother-in-law. Surprisingly, however, I do like his Sibelius 3 with the CBSO. Granted, it comes nowhere near the charisma & vivacity of Maazel or the certitude of Blomstedt, but I do find it 'grooves' where it needs to in the first and last movements - there is a folk-like rhythmical charm to it at times (a hallmark of this unique work). Moreover, the horns are really punchy, regal and clear when they need to be throughout (they are a highlight for me in this symphony). These aspects imbue the performance with character and lift it above the usual Rattle malaise. I'm not sure how familiar you are with this version, David, and, as I say, it's not my go-to, but I do find myself coming back to it now and again and enjoying it.

[@jlaurson]

You hit the nail on the head. Recordings do not make the orchestral reputation of a living conductor. That's how Jansons and Rattle, to name only two very obvious candidates, can happen to have a wildly mediocre output on record and yet to have been considered GREAT conductors by their orchestras and a vast section of their live audiences.

[@pbarach1]

I saw Rattle in his only appearance with Cleveland: the Cooke completion of Mahler 19 and Prokofiev 3rd with John Lill. I thought it was an outstanding concert, but he's never been invited back and no one will say why.

[@leedsleeds8091]

@DJ Quinn one of my friends who played for him said the same! Apparently, his protégé, Ticciati, is just as bad.

[@edfisher6434]

dreadful recording of The Planets

[@thiinkerca]

Are all Simon Rattle acolytes known as Rats... perhaps

[@stpd1957]

SSRattle is totally overrated The SSRattle/CBSO Mahler 2 is poor.