Sequels: After Bruckner--Inspiration or Imitation?

[@Bezart34]

Thanks Dave. Another thoroughly informative and entertaining film, delivered in your own inimitable style! I love it. And you introduced me to Stenhammar, which I am looking forward to 'getting to know'. We're never too old to discover new creativity, be it in music, art or literature..... Cheers!

[@MaxwellKaye]

I'm so happy you included Wetz! Highly underrated composer. I think all three of his symphonies are amazing, but I agree that the coda of the 3rd could have been worked on a little more. Imo the 2nd has the best coda. All that being said, my favorite pieces of his are the Violin Concerto and Requiem. They both take you on a really profound emotional/spiritual journey, and the Violin Concerto especially is not quite as Brucknerian as the rest of his work. It was his last major composition and it sounds like he was really fleshing out a new kind of sound (that could have gone to even more amazing places, but sadly his heavy smoking did him in shortly thereafter). His Requiem is probably the most intensely sad Requiem I've ever heard. Get the tissues ready.

[@aaronnichols3162]

I think there's something rather counterintuitive about grandeur, in that it seems to be most effectively achieved through an extremely humble approach. This is something I feel Bruckner really understood more than most composers, and I think that's why few have managed to effectively recreate that grandeur that he achieved.

[@ThreadBomb]

I don't think it's necessarily humility. More likely thoughtful simplicity. A lot of composers try to do too much, which sounds fussy and reduces the impact.

[@Fafner888]

I think that Marcel Tyberg's 3rd symphony should also be included. An enjoyable piece on its own, and also the most Bruckner-sounding piece that I heard.

[@Fafner888]

And let us also not forget Robert Simpson!

[@edwardcasper5231]

I echo your thoughts on Tyberg.

[@edwardcasper5231]

Another great talk. Thanks for the insight. I wish to echo those who mentioned Marcel Tyberg. I hadn't heard of him until I heard his "completion" of Schubert's Unfinished Symphony performed by the Phoenix Symphony Orchestra as part of its year-long tribute to composers who died in the Holocaust. I decided to check out Tyberg further and really like the pieces I've heard. I also spoke with the conductor after the aforementioned concert and he showed me Tyberg's manuscript score. It was really beautiful! As a former music engraver (in pre Finale and Sibelius days), I really appreciate great looking manuscript.

[@adrianosbrandao]

Stenhammar is such a nice composer! I loooooove his Second Symphony. And I find his First Piano Concerto delightfully amusing - the initial gesture borrowed from the Tragic Overture, the whole concept/sound world similar to the Brahms PC2, the rather dvorakian postlude quoting a song... Stenhammar’s PC1 is lots, lots of fun! (BTW, a suggestion: sequels to the Brahms Piano Concerto no 2. There are quite a few!)

[@classicallpvault8251]

I would strongly suggest Franz Schmidt's piano concerto. One can find both the original for piano left hand and the 1952 Friedrich Wührer arrangement for piano 2-hands. My favourite recording of it is the latter version played by Daniela Rusó, with the Slovak Philharmonic conducted by Ludovit Rajter (himself a composition student of Schmidt's). Karl-Andreas Kolly recorded the original if you want to hear it. Both can be found on KZbin.

[@craigkowald3055]

The 3d Symphony of Egon Wellesz is definitely Brucknerian, but with Expressionist harmonic language.

[@Cesar_SM]

And he got more expressionist in the last 4.

[@craigkowald3055]

@@Cesar_SM Way more expressionist.

[@bomcabedal]

Great video! While I would agree with most of your remarks regarding Wetz, his chord progressions make it immediately recognizable as a 20th-century work, of course. Also, the 2nd symphony is closer to Brucknerian abruptness in the coda, and I find it a more engaging and (despite everything) individual work).

[@Cesar_SM]

Yes, I also feel Wetz's 2nd Symphony more compelling overall.

[@captainhaddock6435]

Great video. Allan Petterson also owes a great deal to Bruckner, he would be a nice addition to the list

[@josecarmona9168]

I'd like to mention another influenced composer: Ligeti. He himself told that in Lontano had adopted the brucknerian way of composing in blocks. I have not enough knowledge to say if It's true or not, but for me Lontano is somehow as spiritual a work as Bruckner's symphonies (but I must say Ligeti is one of my favourite composers). I have enjoyed quite much your vídeo, and am so happy you included Rautavaara in it.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Many composers have adopted that "modular" type of construction that Bruckner, perhaps unknowingly, pioneered, most notably Messiaen.

[@josecarmona9168]

@@DavesClassicalGuide, another spiritual musician, and another of my very favourites.

[@AlexMadorsky]

I love Furtwängler’s 2nd and often raise it when people insist he couldn’t write music. Overall I agree that his output isn’t great, but the 2nd is a very fine Brucknerian work. The Barenboim recording has a lot of Romantic punch to it. I have one of the Furtwängler versions of it on LP (the DG one I think?) and agree the acoustics are lacking. That Stenhammar and Rautavaara symphonies are wonderful too. I don’t know Dick Wetz. Another Beucknerian worth considering is Marcel Tyberg, a few of whose works have been recorded on Naxos by JoAnn Faletta. Died tragically young on a death train bound for a concentration camp.

[@Cesar_SM]

Franz Schmidt's first two symphonies also have a significant influence of Bruckner, and one notices it, just that Schmidt's harmonies are more adventurous and voluptuous. Schmidt quotes a melody from Bruckner's 7th Symphony (1st movement) in his 1st Symphony (2nd movement).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I disagree. There is a shared Austrian musical language, but of Bruckner specifically? No.

[@MrBulky992]

If there is one passage which, for me, bears a resemblance to Bruckner, it's in the slow movement of Schmidt's 4th where there's a sort of "funeral march" theme which always makes me think of the slow movement of Bruckner 6 where there are similar passages. Of course, Mahler was big on funeral march themes too so who knows?

[@classicallpvault8251]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Was there even such a thing as an Austrian musical language? The German speaking world wasn't fractured into geographically different cultural spheres but was united in terms of cultural identity. There were 2 competing factions within German classical music but they were not split geographically, with some of the most progressive but also most conservative composers on either side of the border.

[@JarrettMehldau]

​​​@@classicallpvault8251I disagree. Austria and the alpine regions of South Bavaria have their own folk music. Austria has its own various dialects, it also has culturally a lot of connections with the rest of the old "K- und-K Reich", Germany doesn't have that. Then there's the Vienniese Waltz à la the Strauß family. Sure, German composers like Beethoven and Brahms went to Vienna and adopted some of that Austrian elements and yes, Germany and Austria have a somewhat shared concert repertoire. But nevertheless as a German there are elements in Schubert, Bruckner, Mahler that are easily and distinctively recognizable as Austrian, when I listen to them.

[@adouglaschristie670]

Hi .. thanks for always interesting videos. Talking about Bruckner epigones, what about the music of Scherber and Winbeck ?

[@tortuedelanuit2299]

I am glad that Stenhammar was mentioned in this video, perhaps for the first time on your channel. I have recently been enraptured by his String Quartet No. 4.

[@parsa.noroozian.counselling]

favourite of mine in this great series, keep em up!

[@michaelirons1609]

Found this really interesting, Dave. Already a fan of Kullervo, love the Rautavaara Cantus Arcticus so was primed for that 3rd Symphony. And I really liked the Stenhmmar too. Good call! Thanks.

[@ptan54]

Thanks for this video! I have been going on an "after Bruckner" journey myself the last couple months and agree, especially w/ Stenhammar and Wetz. I echo the other commentators here re: Marcel Tyberg, Martin Scherber and I'd also add Paul Buttner (only no. 4 is recorded on CD that you can buy off iTunes also).

[@davidaiken1061]

Fascinating sequel, Dave, and mandatory for all earnest Brucknerians. I was delighted that you featured Stenhammar, one of the great unsung Scandinavian composers. Hopefully, you'll do a chat on the rest of his sadly meager output. However, you missed one German composer who could be said to have inherited Bruckner's mantle--namely, Franz Schmidt. All of his four symphonies betray some significant indebtedness to Bruckner. I suspect you did not include him because you couldn't get permission from certain labels to play excerpts from the various recordings of his symphonies. Perhaps, though, at some point you could do a chat on that generation of German composers which included Schmidt and Zemlinsky, Great presentation, though. Many thanks.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I've already addressed this. I disagree entirely. Schmidt and Bruckner both belong to the same school of Austrian composition. There are numerous composers, entirely ignored, who belong to that school and share similarities. The fact that Bruckner is, in hindsight, the one we care about most does not make him the source of inspiration for all subsequent composers working in the same tradition. That is why Schmidt does not belong in the list.

[@davidaiken1061]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Got it. Schmidt does still sound like Bruckner at times, but I understand why you chose the sequels you did. Thanks again for giving Stenhammar some air time.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@davidaiken1061 I wasn't denying on occasional similarity in sound. I agree with that. That does not prove influence or inspiration from Bruckner, however, and that was the point.

[@davidaiken1061]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Yes, point well taken. Correlation is not the same as causality. Ditto similarity doesn't imply influence. But Schmidt must have known Bruckner's music well, and there may have been some conscious or unconscious affinity. But I won't argue the point. Schmidt's splendid symphonies are to be enjoyed on their own account, not for any resemblance to Bruckner.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@davidaiken1061 Precisely.

[@mr-wx3lv]

Interesting you mentioned Sibelius. I just so love this composer, who also suggests of Tscaikovsky at times. But there are elements of Bruckner in sibs 2, 3 and 5. Also, how about mentioning Mahler? Several instances I can think of, 5th symphony. Big choral brass theme in front of swirling strings. One or two of his adagios, surely they are Bruckner like...

[@jerrygennaro7587]

Marcel Tyberg. Symphonies Nos. 2 and 3 each have hints of of Bruckner but in a smaller package. Makes one think of what a heavily edited Bruckner Symphony might have been.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Several of you have mentioned him. I think the Second is more Brucknerian than the Third, but he's a good pick also.

[@Listenerandlearner870]

Wetz's Requiem and Christmas Oratorio are also fine works.

[@GastonBulbous]

Great talk, again! Whenever you talk about Furtwangler, I laugh so hard. 😂 Meanwhile, I was waiting for you to mention Magnard in this video but was glad you didn’t. That whole “French Bruckner” thing is such a cliche!

[@MrBulky992]

I wondered whether you detect the influence of Bruckner in any of Nielsen's works? I seem to remember he was an admirer of Bruckner. The two movements which spring to my mind are the "Melancholic" slow movement of "The Four Temperaments" and the last movement of "Sinfonia Espansiva". Whenever I hear the coda of the latter, I begin to imagine I am listening to a Bruckner symphony: it even has the "Bruckner rhythm" of two equal notes and a triplet. There is also a fugato passage which reminds me of the finale of Bruckner 5 (but they're not uncommon in other composers e.g. Mozart, Saint-Saens, Tchaikovsky). The "Melancholic" movement has passages which bring to my mind the slow movement of Bruckner's 7th. The andante in Nielsen's 1st too maybe and the climactic descending brass theme in the first movement of "The Inextinguishable"?

[@ΜαριναΚανελλακη]

Thanks Dave.I think Egon Wellesz could be mentioned.He sounds like atonal Bruckner.

[@BorjaVarona_at_YT]

Thanks for this wonderful topic. I was acquainted with some of these examples and I agree that the most brucknerian (or true to the Austrian's spirit) was Rautavaara, of all people. Nevertheless, I was convinced that this list was going to include Dohnanyi's first symphony, and I wonder why it is not featured. By the way, Happy New 'Keep on Listening' Year!

[@rbmelk7083]

Glad you brought up Dohnanyi. I am hoping Dave will do a video on his orchestral output (especially his second symphony).

[@bolemirnoc604]

Dohnanyi's first would actually fit after Wagner, Bruckner or Brahms sequels. But it is still a great symphony

[@rbmelk7083]

Great comparisons! The Wetz is really dark throughput such that you can almost hear the tires squealing during the hairpin turn to B major for the coda. Any thoughts on his bizarre Christmas Oratorio on Old German Poems?

[@bluetortilla]

Well, Bernstein strikes me as a compassionate philosopher-artist. Open to many things, including Gould.

[@stefanprost6901]

It seems to me, that Bruckner had a huge impact on film music. The las t scene of "Little Buddha" by Ryuichy Sakamoto reminds me on the adagio of the 7th, some moments in the 9th sounds like Star Wars to me.

[@marmaladejinx]

Hi Dave - very interesting - Rautavaara is inspired but having just listened to Furtwangler all the way through (80 minutes I will never get back) I think he is just imitating Bruckner ( with Wagner thrown in of course). Oh Richard Wagner - why did you not just write symphonies? (In imitation of Bethoven - lol?)

[@manuelwenger486]

That's very interesting stuff, thank you. Can you recommend Heinz Winbeck's 5th Symphony "Jetzt und in der Stunde des Todes"? I read Winbeck had the assignment to finish the finale of Bruckner's 9th symphony. Instead he took some material from it and composed the 5th in 2009. He had the same oppinion on the finale like yours you mentioned in a previous video. (Sorry for my bad english!)

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Sorry, but I haven't heard Winbeck. Thanks for mentioning it though.

[@GreenTeaViewer]

@@DavesClassicalGuide really recommend giving Winbeck a listen

[@jeroendejong6680]

Hi David, happy New Year! A wonderfully fascinating talk again! So happy you mentioned Furtwängler and Rautavaara. As an add-on, I was curious what you would think of Zemlinksy's both symphonies as well as Robert Simpson's Ninth?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Zemlinsky is not Brucknerian and Simpson is pretty dreadful.

[@Donaldopato]

Sadly never performed and only a "Youth Symphony" recording from Seattle on KZbin is available is George Rochberg's 4th. It is homage to Bruckner in a way.

[@jans.7179]

Try out Martin Scherbers symphonies if possible. He has the most brucknerish sound of all other composers. But his metamorphosis-form with only one 30-60 min movement is different from Bruckners Block-style.

[@josefkrenshaw179]

The Scherzo of Sibelius's first symphony is a work that has sounded like a Bruckner scherzo to me.

[@ingewb2601]

Dave, have you heard the new CPO recording of Furtwangler’s first symphony? While I agree it’s not a masterpiece like his 2nd, I feel it’s more Brucknerian than the others and this new recording is far superior to the earlier Walter and Albrecht accounts. The fourth movement left me spellbound!!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Haven't had the "pleasure" yet!

[@ingewb2601]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Give it a listen! You may find it not so “dreadful “ after all and at least you’ll enjoy the two tam-tam strikes in the 1st movement.

[@jpccaron1]

You should to a video about the great successors of Sibelius.

[@edwinbaumgartner5045]

That‘s a fine and inspiring talk! Well, my problem with Furtwängler and Wetz is that they want to be great, but the greatness doesn’t come from within, it‘s made, not inspired. But that‘s me. Now, me too, I want suggest Martin Scherber, a strange person who claimed to channel his music, so he doesn’t call his works „by“ Martin Scherber but „through“ Martin Scherber. He was a visionary, but one with a taste rooted deeply in the 2nd halve of the 19. century. Nevertheless, his 3rd Symphony has a true brucknerian breath, and it‘s a pity that there is a cult-like following in a way that conductors willing to perform his works, go in distance. Another Bruckner-follower is, in my opinion, Hindemith. Maybe, he has not the mystical ideas, but the glory of his brass chorals and his ostinati remind me often on Bruckner, f.e. in the „Symphonic Dances“ and in the „Sinfonia serena“. To close: Yes, Rautavaara‘s 3rd Symphony is a masterpiece. In my opinion, Rautavaara was one of the real great composers not only in the 20th century. His music has depth, he speaks through music. He is very dear to me, and especially so in the 3rd.

[@jorgemittelmann620]

Wonderful upload, many thanks!! - Just curious to know your thoughts about Alberic Magnard, perhaps wrongly dubbed ‘the French Bruckner’?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Very wrongly. A great composer though.

[@jorgemittelmann620]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I take due note. Thanks a lot

[@mickeytheviewmoo]

May I also mentioned a composer omitted from your list. Weingartner. Particularly in his Symphony No.5 performed in a minor key, the first two movements, I definitely hear undertones. The symphony is not one of my favourites but saying that I'm not really a Brucknerian.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Neither was Weingartner. Don't push the comparisons too hard!

[@GreenTeaViewer]

I've always thought that the slow movement of Sibelius' 4th is a Bruckner adagio done in half the duration but with just as much punch.

[@davidrowe3356]

David, for Stenhammar's "The Song," do you prefer Blomstedt or Jarvi's recent performance?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I haven't heard the Jarvi (yet), but I love Blomstedt.

[@bernardohanlon3498]

Dave, greetings from the Penal Colonies. Thanks for the entertaining talk. It is always great fun when you let fly with your first "Bbbbrrruuucckkknneeerr!" Best wishes, B

[@JB-dm5cp]

I think Robert Simpson also had great affinity with Bruckner? I have his 9th symphony on CD, but it leaves me cold. Very cold. Like being thrown out of an airlock into space. But maybe that's just my 'fault'. Sorry. Could Hans Rott's Symphony be called a 'Brucknerian' symphony? (Didn't he study with Anton Bruckner?) Even though sprawling and incoherent, I like it. Also because I hear a lot of Mahler in it. Almost like Mahler literally quoted whole bars of it. But I get sidetracked..

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No need to be sorry. Simpson did have a great affinity with Bruckner, and his Ninth Symphony is just awful. There's no inherent conflict between the two.

[@ThreadBomb]

I too heard the hype and bought Simpson's 9th. It sounded like Bruckner put in a blender. Not memorable or enjoyable. But then I wasn't impressed by Rott either.

[@Cesar_SM]

I'm kind of curious to know what 'Simpson's 9th Symphony is awful' means. That only says that the person didn't understand the sense of the work or its development, what the composer intended. I, for me, find it a fascinating score, tautly and meticulously constructed, like the evolution of an energetic creature or creation. But it's OK! Everybody has a different opinion about everything (thank God!).

[@davidhollingsworth1847]

Olivier Messiaen was influenced by Bruckner. There are instances, as in the Second Piano Sonata and the Eighth Symphony, where even Glazunov knew the music of the great Austrian.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's a push.

[@scagooch]

Bruckner at an uncomfortable pace. I don't know. Rautavaara knew how to compose. Complete shock to me when i first heard it.

[@WMAlbers1]

I undusted a while ago the BIS LP of Stenhammar's first Symphony and was surprised that it was actually quite good! (Happy Newyear! )

[@ruramikael]

How about Langgaard? Bruckner with a hint of R. Strauss

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Not!

[@Cesar_SM]

Langgaard not, indeed. He was more influenced by Nielsen (the first version of Symphony 5, Symphony No. 6), and a noticeable margin by Strauss, Wagner, a bit of Mahler and Tchaikovsky in his first four symphonies and No. 10. Also Schumann, weirdly, but I feel it more in symphonies 7-9 and some string quartets. I was thinking of Ludolf Nielsen's 3rd Symphony as another remote possibility in heriting any Brucknerian influence. The nobility and brass chorales convince me a little, though. Or Hausegger's Natursymphonie. Mahler is the closest reference I can associate with. nevertheless.

[@ruramikael]

@@Cesar_SM Gade was one of his heroes, but more so later in his life (and the SQs). But listen to his early symphonies,, especially No 1. Has nothing to do with Nielsen.

[@Cesar_SM]

@@ruramikael yes, I didn't mean the First Symphony has Nielsen traces, but Nos. 5 and 6.

[@ruramikael]

But the first one is quite Brucknerian, listening to it again. And also Nos 2 and 3.

[@nedlow8159]

Great video Dave. I've listened to Wetz's three symphonies before and in my opinion he's only a pale imitator. You're right about Sibelius as well. He adored Bruckner and called him the best composer. P.S: Please Dave do a video on Bruckner symphony cycles. I i take you to be a knowledgeable guy , especially in Bruckner's symphonies, so i would love to see what you think of the numerous Bruckner symphony cycles out there. (I know you've talked about each of his symphonies(except his 8th?), which i find quite informative.) Impatiently waiting for it!

[@jgesselberty]

Bought the Furtwangler 2nd Symphony and it is a snooze fest.

[@SZ-ef9lz]

Furtwängler Second doesn't really strike me as very Brucknerian: some borrowed stylistic traits here and there, the thematic material is not so inventive (Bruckner had good tunes) and the (oversized) structure. It reminds me more of composers like Scriabin or of works like "Tod und Verklärung" (wich are way better musically speaking). But nevertheless it's an interesting symphony und better as usually dismissed. It's nice to get acquainted with such works. Thanks and greetings from Vienna!

[@VallaMusic]

Rautavaara i thoroughly dislike. There, I said it.

[@philscott6085]

I didn't get into Rautavaara until I heard a live concert of some of his orchestral works. Then I was convinced.

[@Alex-ze2xt]

Rautavaara's output is so diverse, no way you can dislike everything the man has composed. For example, his 3rd, 7th and 8th Symphonies are great.

[@VallaMusic]

@Avien84 hehe - and my old music theory professor absolutely hated Mahler - called him an 8th rate composer

[@pawdaw]

@@Alex-ze2xt I think the Fifth is the greatest of Rautavaara's Symphonies