Music Chat: What Is Classical Music?

[@alwa6954]

I have a hard time explaining to friends and co-workers what sort of music exactly it is that I listen to. I'm known to like "classical music," they understand that I'm a "classical music" fan, which to them means Beethoven and Mozart. Then I have to explain that no, really I listen and am interested in music from the Middle Ages up to modern avant garde atonalism. Then I get blank stares. So ok, I just like Beethoven and Mozart, let's just leave it at that.

[@ccarty-q6i]

I like Dr. Robert Greenbergs' definition. That being "Concert Music" to cover all but the Modern era as the music was never of course recorded and could only be heard "in concert". From "Concert Music", we then have the various "era's"

[@presterjohn7789]

I have recently begun getting into a crazy amount of classical music. Part of it was fear of CDs going out of print and not having another chance [yeah, I could mass stream them: no emotional connection, cheapens music IMO, or I can buy downloads I forgot I ever bought or I could just pirate thousands upon thousands of pieces as a compulsive hoarder and not listen to a single thing I downloaded because I don't have 'sweat equity' to research them in the first place to justify their obtaining since they are so cheap so I have no idea what I get an no justification to get them besides hoarding], and finding sellers on ebay selling CDs 'cheap' (I bet they were probably this price in store all those years ago) AND the fact that I can research almost everything they sell on KZbin before buying (took a long time for KZbin to have all these albums available for viewing)... I figure now or never, and I have found something crazy about classical music: an awful lot of what they were recording was amazing! As a collector in the 2000s just randomly buying a CD, probably 1 in 2 were so so, the other was decent, and you figure: I just got lucky with the 50% I like. And you stop playing the lottery. It never once occurs to you that you didn't get lucky, you were actually unlucky. Maybe sampling before buying from our computers in KZbin streams that have only become available in recent years as enhanced the filtering, maybe for some reason the items these sellers are selling are just diamonds, but it has become a maddeningly endless pursuit to find all the music I've missed out on over the years. I say maddeningly as I have run out of storage and have become a hoarder of compact discs. In any given fortnight, I may buy 100-200 CDs. It is out of control and has to stop, so hopefully I can put on the breaks but it is so life enriching finding all this stuff.

[@ViolinViolaMasterclass]

This is wonderful🤩 and your library is amaaaazing!!!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you.

[@wayneforbes4145]

Thanks for the informative discussion as always! I used to think that CD sets of the "100 Essential Classical Music Works" or similar sets were a waste of money but to someone starting out, they are a great way to discover the "standard" repertoire. I then appreciate what you and your website do to inform everyone of the "hidden gems" from relatively unknown classical music composers. I liked your definition at the end!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you.

[@Cubehead27]

This really is an interesting topic! And it gets even more complex when you start running into genres that either straddle the line between "classical" and "popular", or genres that range across the spectrum - for example, musical theatre (which encompasses as diverse things as Gilbert & Sullivan, Rodgers & Hammerstein, Sondheim, Rent, Hamilton, and even potentially 18th-century singspiels) and film score (which likewise can be as classical, as poppy, or as modern as a filmmaker or composer wants it to be). The reality is that strict categories like "classical" and "popular" don't exist in any kind of real sense - they're labels we thought of to try to make it easier to navigate things, and (more importantly in the recorded music era) to sell stuff. And frankly I think a lot of these categories (particularly the kinds used for marketing) are more detrimental to our understanding of music than they are helpful.

[@SVG4ever]

8:19 i discovered the last two brilliant Movements of Beethoven's 5 Symphony very late because the first Movement was played so dead that i didn't feel like listening to it

[@stereo8893]

Hi David - You are so much fun to listen to and watch. Not a pretentious bone in your body. I like to think of you as the Julia Child of music. So until next time bon appetite !

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's the nicest compliment anyone has ever given me. She was my inspiration.

[@rmd1477]

this is so important to understand, thanks!

[@harrygerla6085]

Your video reminds me of the late Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's remark on pornography, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." Another example of the indistinct boundaries of classical music are film scores. Certainly some arrangements of them have entered into the classical canon, e.g. Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky, and Copland's the Red Pony. But what about the suites from various John Williams film scores? Or, what about the plethora of Leroy Anderson's short pieces? In or out? Will answers have to be found only after decades, or even centuries, or are the questions even answerable?

[@mike-williams]

Film music, whether it be in original score or suites, I find to comfortably fit in with other program music settings: ballets, opera overtures and theatrical incidental music.

[@mike-williams]

L'homme armé is such an earworm; every time I hear it, I find myself humming it in traffic for weeks.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Isn't it?

[@hwelf11]

Composers in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries certainly thought so. It seems as though every composer of that era had to write a mass in which a significant portion of the musical material was based on that melody, typically used throughout as a "cantus firmus.". In his landmark study "Music in the Renaissance", Gustave Reese discusses no fewer than 17 composers who wrote "l'homme arme" masses, most notably Dufay, Busnois, Ockeghem, Obrecht, Josquin, de la Rue, and Palestrina - and there were certainly others. Maybe in those days, writing a mass was the only way a musician could get the tune out of his system...

[@stuartraybould6433]

I like your explanation, it shows a similar thought to my own. My music collection is simply arranged in alphabetical order. To me, it's all just music, whether it's David Bowie, Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Peter Gabriel, Philip Glass, Mahler, Beethoven, Steve Reich, Miles Davis, Brand X, Autechre, Klaus Schulze, Can, Soft Machine, Motorpsycho, Opeth, Tool, Bach, Frank Zappa, Jon Hassell, Temple of Sound. It's all just music, labels are there as a sales thing, to order things into a catalogue that can be described in order to target a market. Great music is personal, style is irrelevant.

[@GodfreyMann]

Any attempt to define what classical music is will inevitably run into the problems Wittgenstein explained when trying to define what a game is, and for the same reasons. It’s interesting how we can all agree on what examples fit the categories of ‘classical music’ and ‘games’ are despite not having an all encompassing definition.

[@douglashuntington408]

Great vid thanks I really need to dig into these but not Beatles unless I chose the wrong one

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Hmmm. OK.

[@armandodelromero9968]

I'm intrigued by the magnificent background of the video. How are all those CDs arranged?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Hopefully!

[@leporello7]

A friend of mine (who is a classical music critic himself and owns as many CDs, too), has organised them by birthdate of the composer - to train himself to remember.

[@nigelboon9212]

@@leporello7 A friend of mine has them organised by DEATH date of composer - how weird is that?!

[@85vesti]

I think the definition of Classical Music is inexorably linked to the invention of Sheet Music aka the Score. Whereas folk music was disseminated by ear, and modern Popular Music via recorded sound....Classical Music developed as a result of the architectural capacity of the sheer fact something more elaborate can be made when it's written down and deliberated over. Also the Music itself - stylistically - developed in ways that are reflective of what is actually easier to write out. For example the rhythms of Baroque, Classical periods etc are relatively simple compared to the syncopated complexities of some folk music - because complex rhythms are harder to read/write down! Whereas very elaborate and sophisticated harmony and counterpoint developed at a faster rate in part due to the relative ease with which that can be written out and read compared to rhythm. So my definition of Classical Music is - Music that was born out of the invention of the *Score*! (and by that I mean that; yes any old Music can be written down on a score, but Classical Music is any music whereby the *Score* was a necessary tool with which the Composer used to exact elaborate deliberation and facilitation of its creation).

[@adrianosbrandao]

I was going to write exactly that. After 20+ years trying to tell people what classical music is, without any success, I realized that "classical music" = "music created through the Western European-style notation", which is a difficult concept for most people to understand but it's the most accurate definition we have. That would exclude things like electroacoustic music or musique concrète, and allow room for genres like movie music... but that's a compromise I'm willing to make.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

This is a very good point, but not really the whole story. I prefer to think about it (as i said) in terms of music that survives the circumstances of its original creation. That is, others want to play it, or the composer seeks to preserve it in some way. For that to happen, it helps if it is written down--the bigger and longer it is, and depending on the forces for which it is conceived, the greater the necessity.

[@85vesti]

@@DavesClassicalGuideBeing 'elaborate' seems to be a quality that broadly applies to a lot of Classical Music. There are 'progressive rock' bands that 'compose' elaborate music - with the only difference being that they document it directly via recording themselves performing it as opposed to writing it out via a Score. And then we have the likes of Scott Joplin - less elaborate and more simple music but disseminated and made popular by Scores being sold. Bigger and longer isn't the only parameter either - rich complexity can be contained in 1 minute long Scriabin preludes; and despite them sounding somewhat improvisatory - I'm sure there was an abundance of stylistic refinement and deliberation involved in the composition of each of those miniature jewels. A very thought provoking topic and it serves to illustrate how wide varied and expansive the world of Classical Music is - every rule we can attempt to pin down has an exception to it!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@85vesti Very true!

[@AlexMadorsky]

A good attempt to define the inherently undefinable.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I prefer to think about it as "multi-definable."

[@AlexMadorsky]

Yes, that’s a good friendly amendment. There are a number of plausible, often complementary definitions, and different definitions are more apt than others depending on the context.

[@1984robert]

Very hard to tell to an outsider what the classical music is. When people say to me that "show me classical music" - I can say just one think: it is impossible. There is no single piece of music what shows an outsider what is classical music. A baroque opera is totally different than Wagner for example. Outsiders usually think that classical music is just another style. It is clearly evident when we see music catalogs maintained by outsiders. They differentiate many pop music styles and put every classical music thing into "classical". So people think that they like many different styles but I have a limited taste because I like only "classical". (I actually like pop music too but I listen to it just for background music or dancing.)

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I think it's quite possible, and I describe it more than adequately for most purposes. You are creating false criteria on which to base a definition.

[@tedmann1802]

When a term evolves (devolves?) to the point that it represents an almost endless variety of subsets, and the distinctions between those subsets and other categories become so blurred as to become almost useless, if not actually meaningless, perhaps that term should be dumped altogether. The term "classical" is too general, too abstract, to be conversationally very functional. The same is true of the term "rock," by the way. I've heard that term applied to styles of commercially successful music that differ widely from each other, stylistically. (Were Aretha Franklin, Jerry Lee Lewis and Sting really in the same category?) Perhaps we should cease referring to music in great stylistic lumps, and become more consistently specific when we refer to musical styles. I have no idea how to do that, and I guess it would become extremely complicated, But it's just a thought.

[@shergodakouri]

Great video. Where do you think contemporary music stands? As a composer I find it strange when someone calls my music "classical". The term "contemporary art music" is slightly better, although I think it sounds cumbersome and pretentious.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It does sound cumbersome, and I think "contemporary music" sounds just fine--maybe with a qualifier like "instrumental," "symphonic," "chamber," etc. There are enough words to describe it accurately without having to call it "classical," which I agree it is not (yet).

[@mike-williams]

It reminds me of the oft-debated line between "art" and "craft". For my personal music labelling purposes, I veer between "instrumental", "New music", "Contemporary Classical". Of course there are all sorts of cross-over works between popular forms and "classical" executions, whether it be Leo Brouwer writing on Beatles themes, the LSO playing orchestral arrangements of Pink Floyd or Queen, Claus Ogerman writing jazz concertos...

[@Carlossardina]

What about jazz musicians when they don't improvise (say Duke Ellington's Black, Brown and Beige)? Is that somehow "classical music"?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Ellington is, for sure. I'll be doing some...

[@Carlossardina]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Very much looking forward to watching it.

[@Carlossardina]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Also eagerly waiting for your video on pieces inspired by my country ;-)

[@james.t.herman]

I think that classical music, like any art form, is a tradition of dialogue about and through a shared collection of forms, techniques, and styles across time. I also think that classical music is music for contemplation, which comes from its roots long ago in liturgical music. Even, say, Boulez - who had nothing to do with the Church - retains in his compositions those things that are unique to a kind of music that began as a form of prayer, and that even outside that context remains a form of contemplation. Classical music is almost never danced to, and even if it was at one time, as in a dance scene from French opera or a Stravinsky ballet or even a Strauss waltz, we have primarily valued it as something to be contemplated apart from dance.

[@bomcabedal]

There's loads of classical music that uses a gigue, or tarantella, or other dance style though. Looking at it as a tool for contemplation is a _very_ modern way to look at classical music - essentially, a product late romanticism and later.

[@james.t.herman]

It dates to well before the Romantic era. Bach and the other Baroque composers used dance forms in the abstract. The cello suites and solo violin works use dance forms, but they’re not written to be danced to. And the contemplative character of classical music has its roots in liturgical music, music as a form of prayer, which is an ancient practice. Before the Baroque, when instrumental music became as important as vocal and opera got started, classical music was primarily liturgical, and then composers used the techniques and styles that had been developed for that purpose to write non-liturgical motets and other pieces. Music for contemplation is very old.

[@flowsouth8496]

The broadest definition of classical music includes any music that is old, and even some music that is new. That is a tremendous amount of music. While I have explored a lot of it, I ignore what I do not find interesting, including whole genres such as opera. I do not understand how anyone could like all music that has ever been created. I prefer the term «art music», music created as a work of art. I know it is far from a perfect definition.

[@adrianosbrandao]

No, please keep Helloooooing us!

[@sandrob.7232]

"Classical music" is "Western European tradition of music". I think we should all say "European classical music" instead of just classical music. Also, this tradition implies that you compose a piece by writing a score. If no score, maybe it's not European classical music, even if it sounds like it. This is the definition that satisfies me for the time being...

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I think we all know what we mean when we say "classical music." I'm fine with it as it is.