10 Great "BAD" Performances That We Love Anyway

[@williamfredscott6904]

Vickers was a friend of mine. He told me that they ruined a perfectly good take of "Ev'ry Valley" because Sir Thomas yelled out, in the middle of it, "You're damned good, Vickers!"

[@christopherpurdy5453]

Hello William Fred Scott!!!!!

[@reneblom2160]

Wasn't it also sir Thomas Beecham who stopped the orchestra during a rehearsal, and said: - "The third horn is being too loud! Now, again - from the top!" He was then interrupted by the leader: - "I am terribly sorry, maestro, but the third horn isn't here. He called in sick today". - "Hmm! When he shows up again, then tell him that he played too loud!" 😁

[@pianomaly9]

@@reneblom2160 Went by Strauss' dictum that if you can hear the brass, they're still too loud.

[@AALavdas]

This is excellent!!!

[@HassoBenSoba]

For 6 years running, I played percussion in our local Christmas Festival Orchestra concert (professional orch, amateur chorus). The first year, I asked the maestro about adding the big Beecham-inspired cymbal crash in the "Hallelujah" (at the climatic "King of Kings", with the sopranos on high "G'). He wavered, hesitated...and finally gave me the OK. Every year after, there was no need to ask for permission..I just did it, and every year, many of the players looked in my direction and smiled as I s-l-o-w-l-y rose from my chair and picked up the (offending) instruments (as if to say "is he really going to do it?") Happily, I never "popped" the crash; they were all good, and thus the tradition continued. Sadly, the festival ran out of money and the tradition ended. LR

[@AndrewDesiderio1117]

Dave, one of the many things I love about your videos is the sheer delight you take in deflating the pompousness of the classical music culture. Thank you for treating music as a human endeavor and not some pseudo-religion to be worshipped without question. What fun!

[@revivalharpsichord5078]

I'd like to nominate an honorable mention: Herbert von Karajan's Mantovani-like performance of Handel's Opus 6 Concerti Grossi. Talk about overwhelming cascades of gorgeous string sound--even Ormandy and his Philadelphians never made Baroque music sound this lush!

[@ulfskjran4077]

After watching, I immediately put on Celi's La Mer, and you weren't kidding... But for some semi-perverse reason, it actually works if you try to forget all other performances you've ever heard of the piece. Whilst looking at the metronomic markings in the score more as embellishments on the printed page than anything "technical".

[@joncheskin]

The item on your list that inspired the most curiosity to me was the Scherchen Haydn, so I immediately searched it and listened to it. I thought it was awesome. Regarding the Military Symphony 2nd movement, I rather liked the take-no-prisoners approach, the end sounded vaguely like the climax of a good horror movie. The Farewell Symphony with the verbal goodbyes I thought was beautifully cheeky, it kept me in suspense because I was wondering what was going to happen in the end. This was an enjoyable listening experience, thanks for the tip!

[@josemilitano]

Bernstein's DG recording of West Side Story with opera singers. I can't get enough of that weird stuff.

[@billward9347]

I was so aghast when I heard it that I wondered whether Lenny had lost his mind. An aging Jose Carreras as a Spanish -accented Tony?!! I guess I should give it a second chance.

[@adrianjohnson7920]

This recording gave me the willies. It made my teeth hurt, but I can understand the fascinated revulsion it can generate. It's like being swallowed alive by an Anaconda -- a Horrible but fascinating experience.

[@AALavdas]

@@billward9347 Aging? He was 39. But a Spanish -accented Tony is indeed weird...

[@alexanderreikreik]

josemilitano : not weird, just what he and the NYC populace wanted !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@alexanderreikreik]

@@billward9347 Lenny had more in mind than you probably had (or have) during your duration hereabouts. Don't be aghast so easily, give second hearings.........

[@MattSmith-il4tc]

I about died laughing when Dave said "10,000 screaming Mormons!" lol

[@mattbalfe2983]

One that came to mind is the Boulez Symphony Fantastique with the LSO. He does his best to make that finale sound like Stravinsky.

[@markfarrington5183]

to quote Beecham himself: "If there was one especial way in which opera should not be given, then here it was in all its rounded perfection." - A MINGLED CHIME, p., 73

[@stevenbugala8375]

I love E Power Biggs recordings of Scott Joplin on pedal harpsichord. Because I heard them before I heard them on piano, they sound right to me…and still do! ❤️

[@JohnGavin-hz9bc]

I also like the Biggs on his Challis pedal harpsichord, but I think that Elizabeth Chojnacka’s Joplin Rags is better!

[@stevenbugala8375]

@@JohnGavin-hz9bc On your recommendation I streamed that, and you’re right: it’s excellent!

[@parfreysounds6841]

Gould’s Mozart Sonatas makes my list. There’s nothing like them (for good reason) - but I can’t help enjoy listening to them.

[@jdistler2]

Another one of my guilty pleasures!

[@bigg2988]

@@jdistler2 Yet I suppose Gould's "Appassionata" won't make the cut? :) Even knowing who is at the piano, it is willful beyond clemency... still interesting, but so destructive!

[@brianwilliams9408]

I always use Gould's recordings of this to show those inexperienced with classical music just how wildly different an artist can interpret the same score.

[@djbabymode]

I love the Scherchen! The first time I listened to the Farewell I thought I was hearing voices

[@bloodgrss]

Oh yes, so did I! But I finally read the album notes; a good lesson in my classical youth!

[@matthiasriewald7168]

There is also a La mer with Celi and the Berlin Philharmonic from 1947 on Audite. The scream (presumably by the conductor) at the close of the first movement is something to behold! I guess he mellowed over the years...

[@compositortiagoprado]

Beecham's "Messiah" was my first "Messiah". I still love it very much!!!!!

[@EgoSumAbbas820]

I attended a dinner party once where the guests all brought their favorite classical music recordings. Since I knew there were a few period instrumentalists in the group, I chose the "Hallelujah" Chorus from Beecham's Messiah. The reaction was as you would expect, but that didn't stop me from playing it a second time for good measure.

[@adrianjohnson7920]

Wicked! 😎

[@grahamexeter3399]

Hahaha - fabulous fun! When you said you had another Stokowski at the end, I was expecting his Brahms 3rd. It has to be the strangest, most perversely riveting Brahms performance ever. Edit: What am I saying? Nope, it'd have to be the Gould/Bernstein 1st piano concerto.

[@davidaiken1061]

Delightful. Great fun! My spouse and I laughed uproariously at times. This would make a fun series. Some other "great baddies" come to mind. Beecham's recording of Handel's "Solomon": Totally reorchestrated, like his stereo Messiah, brutally cut with numbers moved about. No judgment scene; no harlots. But no-one has done the love music in Act I better, and the sensual insinuations in the Queen of Sheba's first aria are quite telling indeed. Next, Scherchen's Stereo recording of Beethoven's "Eroica." Fast and furious doesn't quite capture the mayhem, but it's edge-of-seat excitement in the first movement. Thrills, chills and spills. Finally, I'd nominate Harnoncourt's Vivalid "Four Seasons," which was aptly described by a friend of mine as "Four seasons on another planet." Weird,, wild and wonderful.

[@frankenoise]

Four seasons on another planet😂

[@brianwilliams9408]

I love Scherchen's Eroica! I do not think it's a bad performance at all! I will take his spirited, eccentric view any day over today's boring readings by todays current conductors.

[@davidaiken1061]

@@brianwilliams9408 I agree wholeheartedly. The Scherchen Eroica is "bad" only in that the ensemble playing is on the rough side and the interpretation is unconventional. I;m a Scherchen fan all the way. When he was at his best, which was not always, he had a genious for plumbing the depths of a work.

[@Warp75]

You could speak about the most boring tripe imaginable Dave, but with your humour & gusto you’re always listenable. I will check out the Chopin & the Mahler 7

[@jgesselberty]

I love the Beecham "Messiah." I imagine that this was one of those Victorian extravaganzas performed in the Crystal Palace. Plus, it has some of the best choral singing and an absolutely hair-raising "Thou Shalt Break Them" by Jon Vickers.

[@jefolson6989]

Only Beecham would cast a dramatic, Wagnerian tenor ! It's still shocking but it works. Giorgio Tozzi is the star among the soloists. Inspired and beautifully sung. And the choral singing is superb. It belongs on special list. It may be " wrong" stylistically, but its divinely, spectacularly wrong. Never " bad". That's true with most of these. It's a matter of style, and taste rather than badness. "Wrong" is the only alternate word I can think of, but that doesn't describe them either. Different, unusual, tampered with, bastardized- what have you. I dont think I've ever heard a satisfying period, authentic performance. I feel certain Handel would have written the Gossen version if modern instruments had been available.

[@wayneday3116]

I agree with your assessment of Beecham's "Messiah". Despite it's perversity, it remains, in my opinion, one of the glories of recorded music. Vicker's recitative "Thy rebuke hath broken His heart" melts my heart every time I hear it.

[@jefolson6989]

I agree but for Tozzi's definitive performances of the bass Solos. And great choruses. I can put up with some added trombones. It's the Beecham's Messiah. ( Goosens really but Beecham gets the credit, Goosens deserves the blame. )And I love it. For Handel's Messiah we must go elsewhere.

[@moishelepdx]

Late to the party, but loving your channel! What about the infamous Szell/Horowitz Tchaikovsky piano concerto of 1952, which pretty caused Horowitz (and listeners) a nervous breakdown? Such an unorthodox approach to that piece (even for Horowitz - especially compared to the 1940s war-concert recording with Toscanini) but Horowitz still manages to endure Szell's attempts at sabotaging him and make it to the end until the orchestra prematurely combusts due to exhaustion.... And may be too cliched, but the Gould/Bernstein recording of the Brahms 1st.....

[@pianomaly9]

Haven't heard the Szell/Horowitz, does Szell throw slow tempo banana peels in to put the kabosh on VH's virtuoso ego, or what? The shoe was on the other foot at H's and Beecham's American debut, where H left B trying to catch up in the last movement.

[@dennischiapello7243]

Genius topic! The only one I'll likely make the effort to seek out is the second Stokowski. Just the idea of finding Wagner's orchestration regrettably dry, and proceeding to correct it! 🤠

[@stefanandressohn8448]

I can't help it, but I really like the way Bernstein stumbles, coughs, sweats and suffers through Mahler's 9th with the Berlin Philharmonic (DG).

[@pianomaly9]

@@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh Was present at a Jorge Bolet recital during which an audience member went into seizures and the auditorium staff or first responders had to carry or gurney him off the premises. Bolet, consummate professional, just kept playing.

[@frgraybean]

Great topic! I listened to Stokowski's quadrophonic Beetheven 9th the other night. I had to keep playing the very end to hear those added horn and high trumpet runs that make the ending sound like a Broadway show. Wow! Sooooo wrong and yet sooooo wonderful!😂😂😂😂

[@AlexMadorsky]

I love that Stoki Beethoven 9th, had it on LP once upon a time.

[@mike-williams]

"adding a tam-tam to anything improves it" ... Looking forward to a Tinnitus Classics release demonstrating this, including Pärt's Spiegel im Spiegel ...

[@brianwilliams9408]

I love Stokowski's Tchaikovsky 4 Vanguard recording. The opening with those trombones coming in four bars early just sounds incredible!

[@marlenemeldrum7382]

Owns its wrongness!!! Wonderful, just grand!!!

[@paullewis2413]

Agree about so-called period performances of Handel. He was a showman of the first order and I’m sure would have loved to hear his major works performed with large orchestras and choruses. He was simply limited to what was available to him at the time. Likewise Haydn who I understand did manage to sometimes get his works performed with large forces.

[@mgconlan]

The same with Bach. A letter exists in Johann Sebastian Bach's handwriting protesting that at the last minute the people running the Leipzig church moved the premiere of the "St. Matthew Passion" from the church's main hall to a side chapel. Bach's main complaint was that he couldn't have as many people as he felt the music needed in that small room. I think of that every time I hear one of the "historically informed performance" people loudly declare that THE way to perform Bach's choral music is with just one voice per part. They're saying that the bean-counters at the Leipzig cathedral were right about how many people should perform Bach's music, and Bach himself was wrong.

[@wakefieldharper6834]

Sometimes one has to indulge in the guilty pleasures. It might be pushing the boundaries but I even reach for that "Great Conductors" Golovanov collection on occasion. That's the great thing about classical music - sometimes these extreme visions can offer some new insight (or just a bit of excitement), or if nothing else can tell us how it probably should be done.

[@damianthompson703]

I wish you'd mentioned the little-known Busch Quartet recording of Beethoven's String Quartet Op. 130 in which Adolf Busch, to the horror of his colleagues, insisted on adding a tam-tam part to the Cavatina "to emphasise the pathos". But it's possible you've never heard it...

[@antoineduchamp4931]

Wow David, you always manage to pull something new out of the hat!! Dreadful on the one hand, wonderful on the other..... irresistible ! Amazing how music can sound so truly gross, whilst being so enthralling at the same time! can't wait to look these up!!

[@bigg2988]

8:15 Gives the true meaning to an old phrase "played to a fare-thee-well". :D

[@georgesdelatour]

I think Bernstein’s Nimrod is like that. Yes, it’s incredibly slow; slower than can be justified historically. But something magical happens when you play it that slow. If you’ve seen the film Dunkirk, it uses an electronically time-stretched version of Nimrod. I wonder if the Bernstein interpretation was an inspiration.

[@bernardley4540]

Jochums version was almost as slow but, due to his masterly control of line and dynamics, does not sag uncontrollably like Bernstein

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Bernstein does not sag.

[@georgesdelatour]

@@gerontius3 I saw the TV programme of the performance back in the day. Even as a young-un, I could see that the orchestra was not committing wholeheartedly to Bernstein's vision of the piece. The wonderful thing about classical music is, there's room for people to try out different interpretations. Bernstein famously agreed to a super-slow version of Brahms First Piano Concerto with Glenn Gould, because he believed in Gould's right to his vision of the piece.

[@oakwoodian4465]

I was at the concert too and thought the "Nimrod" was an abortion. What with Bernstein emoting away and being terribly "moved" I consider it one of the worst evenings I spent at the RFH. In the second half we had his "Songfest" which I found tedious in the extreme as well. I don't know if it is still on KZbin but there used to be a clip of Bernstein engaging in a passage of arms with the Principal Trumpet of the BBC S.O. who also didn't seem to be too enraptured with what the Maestro was imposing on them.

[@leestamm3187]

Your usual entertaining presentation. I like Matačić interpretations of whatever he conducted, even that version of Bruckner 5. He could have directed The Harmonicats playing "The Polovtsian Dances" and I'm sure it would've been great.

[@francescofurlan3098]

​@@paxpaxart4740and what about "La Fanciulla del West" with Birgit Nillson? I love it almost as the (so different) Mitopoulos/Steber version.

[@francescofurlan3098]

@@paxpaxart4740 that one I do not love so much like the other two...but Tebaldi in general is not my favorite singer! 😉

[@tommorrissey4726]

The Matacic Bruckner 5 is a great choice. But adopting your criteria, I'll nominate the various Richter recordings of the late Schubert piano sonatas, e.g. his analog-era D. 960 and his epically slow, live recording of the Reliquie- inclusive of the two unfinished movements!- for Philips.

[@daviddavenport9350]

Like the Tchaikovsky 3rd Symphony, I really like the Manfred Symphony (fabulous inner movements), the only thing that I would change is to either shorten or cut the fugue in the Bacchanale last movement.....it doesnt really seem to belong there does it?

[@EgoSumAbbas820]

One of my favorite great "bad" performances is the recording (in Russian) of Britten's Serenade for Tenor, Horn, and Strings with Ivan Koslovsky conducted by Gennady Rozhdestvensky. Michael Kennedy called it "grotesque," but for me it's a welcome relief from the sound world of singers like Pears and Bostridge. Definitely worth a listen if you can track it down.

[@isaacsegal2844]

One of the very first records I ever bought (when I was about 13) was a Westminster pairing of the Beethoven Fifth and the Haydn Military by Scherchen. I was so wet behind the ears that when I first saw the cover that said "Beethoven Fifth/Haydn Military," I thought "Haydn Military" was a band playing Beethoven. A look at the back cover wised me up.

[@pianomaly9]

First classical record bought on my own was LvB 5 with Horst Stein/London Philharmonic on the budget Somerset label, I was 13 also. I remember seeing the Scherchen albums in the same record store. Fist Haydn exposure was Mogens Woldike on Vanguard Everyman.

[@annakimborahpa]

1. If ya can't beat 'em, Beecham. 2. Was Celibidache's La Mer recorded at morning low tide with jelly rolls for breakfast? 3. Did Scherchen record the "Farewell" and "Military" Symphonies after he had read Hemingway's A Farewell To Arms? 4. Stokowski's agogic accents in the Finale of Tchaikovsky's 4th will leave you crying out "Oh God, my God." 5. von Matacic's metastasizing of the Gottschalk edition of Bruckner's 5th was nothin' but shuckin' and jivin'. 6. Toscanini's radical editing of Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony would make even the pop group Manfred Mann blush. 7. Even if his recordings are note perfect, at least Christian Zimerman didn't perform the Chopin Piano Concertos on a zither. 8. Pierre Boulez practiced his piercing dark arts on The Song of the Night, Mahler's 7th. 9. Stokowski's reading of Wotan's Farewell on Everest Records is the summit of Wagner.

[@grzegorzcebrat6242]

For me, one of the strangest, most terrible and terrific at the same time, recordings is 'Bach by Stokowski' Supraphon/Decca LP, recorded live in Prague in 1972. It consists of the conductor's own transcriptions of selected Bach organ works, including Toccata & Fuge d-minor and Passacaglia c-minor, which sound so un-Bach-like, but truly Wagnerian!

[@1e9n4i7gma]

I agree totally with this comment.I bought the stereo CD and the most wonderful thing is the Passacaglia and Fugue,the orchestration is over the top and magnificently played by the Czech Philharmonic in a fantastic Hollywood sound

[@maxwellbrown4049]

I’m not sure it’s actually considered a bad performance, I see many people recommend it in general, but as a tuba player my favorite ridiculous/over the top recording is Zubin Mehta and the LA Phil’s recording of The Planets where instructions must have been given to all the brass players to try to blast themselves off into outer space because the way they play it at anything forte or above is like they’re trying to shred your speaker system. There is also lore that for some reason they brought in a second ([contra]bass) tuba player so both Roger Bobo and Tommy Johnson, two of the GOATs, are on the same part in addition to the usual tenor tuba/euphonium part. Reader, do yourself a favor and listen to their version of Uranus. There are some low brass explosions in that movement that are unlike anything else you will ever hear in your life. Around 2:30 after the doodly piccolo/clarinet figure there is a massive snarling outburst, and the Big Low E at c. 5:00 genuinely sounds like a bomb going off. For these moments the tuba and bass bone players utilize an embouchure technique known as “the shift” that allows them to play very low notes at frankly ridiculous volumes with a more aggressive timbre than usual and it works miracles under the right circumstances.

[@Tenortalker]

There is nothing like a truly gorgeous performance that breaks all the rules. I sometimes wish I lived in an age when huge scale choral festivals were a regular occurence. I certainly wouldn't want to catch any of the terrible afflictions of the age like diptheria , TB etc or to experience the choking London smog , but for the musical experience of thousands singing and playing their hearts out, directed by great conductors who had to have an element of the Drill Sergent Major about them. Crystal Palace in South London was the site for many of these extravaganzas and Jenny Lind a popular oratorio soloist. I should like to have heard Sims Reeves the great oratorio tenor. Alas the amazing glass Palace is no more, having burned down in a fire so impressive that the train company put on extra services so that curious folks could watch the event 'live.' What a passion for musicmaking those concerts reflected!

[@markharmer5114]

I put Scherchen's Eroica on every now and then, just for fun...

[@Nonsense1950]

I'm late coming to this video but it has to be one of the most entertaining and informative ones presented by Mr. Hurwitz. Perhaps I should be ashamed but I own 9 of the 10 recordings discussed although I have the Vanguard Stokowski instead of the Music & Arts. I loved this video!

[@ME-qr7hs]

David, I’m still laughing from your musical critiques. It reminded of Anna Russell’s “Ring”.

[@WesSmith-m6i]

What an absolute delight! Thank you so much, Dave. I KNEW the Beecham Messiah would be there, but didn't know that it would come first. Is there a variation on this topic that you might consider? I've been thinking of famous or adored works but that should simply have their number retired and never heard again? Vivaldi's Four Seasons would have to rank at the top of my list. I guess this takes your topic of "Unkillable" and turns it upside down.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, I'm sorry, but I don't believe in "retiring" anything that people enjoy listening to!

[@geraldmartin7703]

There's always a new generation yet to discover the work.

[@WesSmith-m6i]

True enough, I don't mean to pour cold water on other people's likes -- my likes are just as susceptible to the same cold water.

[@davidspence1404]

Oh, David, you understate the case when it comes to Celi's Munich PO La Mer. It is the best party CD of anything by Debussy I own and that goes for the 'Iberia' on the same disc as well.

[@LuBanchio]

Great list, Dave! I would add every piece recorded by Glenn Gould. He did everything the way it was't supposed to be done... and still the music is great.

[@DavidJohnson-of3vh]

I love the Beecham, it's a wonderful hoot !!

[@BlaBla-vm5yu]

Do you know the recording of the slow movement from the pastoral symphony with Mengelberg? He completely changed the rhythm of the theme. I find it very fascinating!

[@JeanPaul-Hol65]

Yes, it is. Fascinating AND awful… 😢 😅

[@pianomaly9]

Had Toscanini's Manfred (the one that got released on a Victrola LP back in the day) with that faux stereo processing, don'tcha know. Didn't know the score so was unaware of the cuts. There's a Stoki Night on Bald Mountain from the mid-50's on an RCA Victor "S. plays Light Classics" or something like that, with his orchestration of one of the Prelude and Fugues in Bb minor from the WTC included and the umpteenth Toccata and Fugue. Anywho, the Bald Mtn is so hilariously cartoonish that your jaw drops and then you laugh your head off. Ditto for his hideous Pictures at an Exhibition, on London I think. Would enjoy your takes on Perlea/Krips/Susskind/Konwitschny/Stein/Rother/Swarowsky and some other of the maybe not so publicized maestros. Really enjoy your takes on things.

[@jlaurson]

I know exactly what you mean. My perfect Wrong Messiah is Malcolm Seargent's. 🙂 And Boulez' 7th has one of the best finales ever put on record. It brings out all the Wagner with superior ferocity. Weirdly, in that it is rivaled by another, diametrically opposed terrible-great recording: Klemperer's.

[@historicalpiano]

Another one: Klemperer's Bach: Magnificat, Budapest version. So-so-so great and so-so-so bad at once, I just have to love it!

[@wappingbpy]

Hi Dave - is there a similar talk in you along the lines of "conductors I generally dislike but who have made (at least) one excellent recording"? You've already mentioned Rattle's Szymanowski, Wilson's "Oklahoma!" and Abbado's Simon Boccanegra; there might be others?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Interesting idea. I'll think about it.

[@amirahmadazhieh2510]

The moment you said "A great bad performance that is demonstrably wrong in all kinds of ways... It's just put over with such conviction, vision, determination, that it so completely owns its wrongness.", based on my knowledge of you, one name came to me: Celibidache!!!

[@daviddavenport9350]

As a musician friend said of this Beecham Messiah with the gongs and cymbals, etc....."Beecham had his big jokes as well as his little ones"

[@goonbelly5841]

Ivo Pogorelich's recordings in general. Eccentric would be a more apt characterization than bad as I find a lot of his interpretations to be rather beguiling. His recording of Chopin's Nocturne Op 55 No 2 is one of my all-time favorite Chopin performances.

[@langsamwozzeck]

The performance that immediately comes to mind is the Ensemble Organum/Marcel Peres recording of Machaut's Messe De Notre Dame (which I see has a complimentary blurb on Amazon by our own Jed Distler!) The theory behind the recording was that the singing of Machaut's day would have been heavily influenced by the North African music from the same period, through the Moorish invasions. I have seen musicologists on both sides argue very passionately about this theory -- from a purely historical perspective, I am extremely sympathetic to those who argue that we simply don't have enough evidence, and that you have to make awfully big leaps in logic to argue in favor for it. There's an extremely good chance that this performance has almost nothing to do with Machaut's intentions. But from a purely musical standpoint, I love, love, love this recording. Whether it's historically accurate doesn't make any difference to me. The combination of polyphony and vocal inflections give it a color and sonority are unlike anything I've ever heard, classical or not. I genuinely believe everyone should give it a chance -- you will either love it or hate it, but it deserves a hearing.

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

If you're going to talk about added tam-tam rolls, we should add Stokowski's "Planets" to this list.

[@gregorystanton6150]

It was the Beecham Messiah that made me research Eugene Goossens. He was so unjustly treated over his affair with the Witch of Kings Cross. Such a fascinating story.

[@wappingbpy]

Absolutely. But his music is very good and well worth exploring - 2 wonderfully muscular symphonies for a start.

[@gregorystanton6150]

@@wappingbpy A terrific musician and composer, unjustly maligned.

[@abrahamclott5604]

Alexis Weissenberg's Chopin Nocturnes. Insane, somerimes repellant, but gripping.

[@johngreen1176]

I agree about Zimerman's recording of the Chopin concertos. They are pretty strange but I think they are so beautiful.

[@mcintertz5593]

The argerich / dutoit emi recording reigns supreme for me, much more spontaneous even for a studio recording

[@johngreen1176]

I would be the first to admit the Zimerman is hardly definitive. The point is that it is so enjoyable despite, or maybe even because of, its oddities. Martha Argerich is my favourite pianist, though I have not heard those recordings because of the participation of Dutoit.

[@MisterPathetique]

The only problem I have with the Zimerman recording of the Chopin concertos isn't even related to the performances themselves (which, as Dave says, are great but plain weird). It is the fact that Zimerman is such a popular pianist that a bunch of listeners believe it's the ONLY way these concertos should be played. As a consequence, every other performance gets trashed by the Zimerman crew and you occasionally hear things like "Zimerman's version is definitive and will never be surpassed". The narrow-mindedness of these people is a poison, I swear.

[@donaldjones5386]

The real problem is with the concertos: awful bores, especially the one in F Minor. If they were half as long, they'd be better. Up and down the keyboard, amounting to nothing. @@MisterPathetique

[@mcintertz5593]

@@donaldjones5386 what on earth are you on about… whilst the orchestration is not as effective as some other great romantic concertos, the keyboard writing more than makes up for it. I find both of them especially the opening movements deeply moving. Reminiscient of youthful naive love he was but a teenager when he wrote them, and they’re full of these wonderful outpourings, stunning melodies and harmonic progressions

[@hendriphile]

Toscanini’s “Surprise”Symphony’s minuet… Fasten your seatbelts! PS: I imprinted on Toscanini’s “Manfred” so my mind fills in the “missing” tam-tam whenever I hear another recording of it. Ditto the organ at the end of Ansermet’s “Pictures”.

[@marceloforones6939]

Beecham’s Messiah is my all time favorite ❤️

[@mgertzer]

Maybe some of Ervin Nyiregyhazi's better recordings qualify? How about that insane reworking of Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony as a piano concerto that came out a few years ago?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That was just plain bad.

[@fredrickroll06]

Toscanini is said to have avoided Tchaikovsky until he read Catherine Drinker Bowen's novelistically commented edition of the correspondence between Tchaikovsy and Nadejda von Meck entitled "Beloved Friend," which came out in 1937, with plenty of time before the Centennial.

[@DelsinM]

Most of this stuff is orchestral, but for piano Gould's Beethoven, and even some of his Bach (English Suites, etc.) are really weird and great.

[@daviddavenport9350]

I read a review of the London performance of the Military Symphony that Haydn did while there, and it stated that the "battle" was so realistic that women in the audience got the vapors. So maybe the warlike instrument did come in with a huge bang then!

[@classicalperformances8777]

I predict a "part II" coming soon...

[@billward9347]

Please!!!

[@albertpianist]

Maybe an honorable mention could go to Goebel's recklessly fast Brandenburgs with Musica Antiqua Koln. People either hate or love them with a passion.

[@gregorystanton6150]

You can counter the effects of Goebel with the recordings by Adolph Busch of the same material.

[@drh8h]

I have to think part of the attraction of the Manfred Symphony for Toscanini was the Mendelssohnian second movement. If anyone knows of a recording to match his light and airy performance, please let us know. I have not heard it! AT was a great Mendelssohn conductor, esp. MSND--don't go by the commercial issue of the "Italian" Symphony--there are other much better concert performances. Also, the recorded Manfred from Carnegie is miked too closely. Some of the extant Studio 8-H live recordings of Manfred variously on CD and Internet are warmer-sounding and better balanced. Just avoid "enhanced" versions--a good original transcription, faithfully remastered, will blow any of those away. BTW, the Beecham Messiah 3.0 is probably just about the only commercial recording by him I have never heard. I can't bring myself to seek it out. His second version is a classic. The first, from the dawn of the electrical age, is more-than-a-bit eccentric and wild.

[@DvdAvins]

What do you think of the Bonynge/Sutherland Messiah? I love it, but it seems to get some of the same criticism you give to Beecham.

[@ol25n]

I don't know if it's "bad" per se, but I love Stokowski's Night on Bare Mountain recording with the LSO for Decca. The Rimsky arrangement always just sounds a little tame to me now...

[@brtherjohn]

Stokowski's earlier 1953 RCA version of the R-K is much better! Same tinkering but instead of the tuba solo he brought in an actual bass baritone to sing that solo! Marvelous!

[@brianwilliams9408]

Stoky's arrangement of Night on Bald Mountain is the best. Rimsky's arrangement is just too plain for me. Especially the ending. Stoky's ending is just fantastic.

[@wxy484]

10,000 screaming Mormons. LOL

[@adamfrye246]

Do they sound different in some way?

[@st.lukechamberorchestra5074]

I heard a performance of Wellington’s Victory on the radio about 25 years ago that was so bad I thought it must have been a joke; I couldn’t stop laughing the whole time. Would love to know who did it and listen again. Anyone have an idea?

[@bbailey7818]

Beecham's first (1927) Messiah recording preserves his then practice of skipping to Part 3 after the Part 2 "Thou shalt dash them," playing the best bits from Part 3 then dropping the "Amen" chorus entirely and ending the show with---the Hallelujah Chorus! But his tempi then were much faster than the '20s stretching back to the Victorian norm. Listen to those lumbering choruses recorded live in the Crystal Palace in 1926 for comparison. Beecham was slammed for what we would consider normal tempi; then it was revolutionary. The 1947 recording is fairly normal and a bit dull. I think when the ever-iconoclastic Tommy made that glorious final RCA set, he was deliberately sticking it to the reduced forces nascent HIP movement already under way. Manfred has always been regarded as a problem child. Bernstein said it was trash and never did it. So I guess Toscanini thought he was helping. But, oy!, that last movement cut. And he wasnt the only conductor to cut it. I guess I should be ashamed to say I have everything on this list. But I'm not.

[@MartinSchneider-k3f]

Dave - Bernstein's bach magnificat. If you are going to do it wrong make it notewrthy

[@jdistler2]

I'd put George Cziffra's totally demented Chopin Etudes in this category. The tempo manipulations and wacked-out (or whacked-out) voicings, accents and phrasings transform these pieces into animated cartoons, yet can't help but laugh out loud with more delight than disbelief. These recordings count among my great guilty pleasures. And for honorable mention, Albert Coates' ridiculously fast and inchoate Siegfried's Rhine Journey, although his Tannhäuser Overture comes close!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

And his Mozart Jupiter Symphony!

[@BriGuy1974]

Doing "harpe" things? That's hilarious. I, too, love Stoki's Wagner on Everest. Those Wagner transcriptions are more like the "Reader's Digest" condensed version of the operas.

[@martinhaub2602]

I've tried for years to get any local conductor to be brave and do the Goosen's version of the Messiah that Beecham recorded. After so many repetitive, desultory and uninspiring performances using the Mozart or Prout editions, wouldn't it be nice to play the Goosens? Besides, it'd give the rest of the orchestra something to do. But alas, no one is interested. How dull concerts have become.

[@Nonsense1950]

In the late 1980s I managed the Madison (WI) Symphony Orchestra and my conductor agreed with my suggestion to program the Goossens orchestration. But the parts weren't published and the manuscript copies were with Beecham's widow. I received a very polite handwritten letter from Lady Shirley saying she didn't feel comfortable sending the parts to America.

[@yttrium55]

LOL screaming mormons and hamsters

[@michaelthoseby4682]

What you say about the Boulez could apply to everything he did

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Nah.

[@rogerevans9666]

To each his own, but my suggestion is Nyiregyhazi's playing of Liszt's "Vallée d'Obermann". I love, love, love it, but some professional pianist on KZbin says it is the worst thing ever recorded. I cannot understand why more people do not like Nyiregyhazi.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Probably because he was a mediocre artist who did nothing that others haven't done much better. But there could be other reasons too.

[@jg5861]

This reminded me of Pogorelich's totally screwed-up recital in Espinho, Portugal, some years ago. Except that I really hated the thing! If I recall correctly, he played two Beethoven sonatas (late ones), some Brahms Intermezzi, and some Scriabin miniatures (or was it Rachmaninov?, not sure). My goodness, EVERY tempo was insufferable, like three times slower than normal, and I really mean it. Now imagine that in late Beethoven and Brahms! For a snapshot: in the lovely Brahms op. 18 no.2 JUST THE PICK-UP BEAT lasted something like 3 seconds. It only got going with the Russian 2 or 3 pieces at the end. Good grief!...

[@pietstamitz1]

I heard a recording of the Valse Triste by him.. every beat had a different timing, he managed to take all the flow away.. what's going on inside him? This was unbearable and imo ridiculous, yet some consider this as ingenious.

[@jamesgensel3157]

When I was a kid, I bought a Vox recording of Hermann Scherchen conducting a performance of "Messiah" it was really bad, almost laughable in places (wish I would have kept it).

[@noahmiller3518]

Dave, no Simon Rattle performances?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

They are just plain bad. He's not interesting enough to be perversely fascinating.

[@mgconlan]

I hate to keep harping on this one, but my nomination for the all-time greatest bad performance is Jos van Immerseel's "historically informed" Gershwin album. Immerseel makes a big to-do in his liner notes about searching for absolutely "authentic" 1920's reed instruments, including the reeds themselves, and he gets the sonorities absolutely right. But oh, those tempi! Gershwin was a 20th century composer who recorded quite a lot of his own music, so we don't have to guess what he wanted his music to sound like the way we do with Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven et al. And we know for sure he didn't want it to be played so dreadfully slowly as Immerseel does! I felt sorry for the singer Claron McFadden, whom Immerseel brought in to sing five Gershwin songs, and feared she'd run out of breath trying to sing them at Immerseel's creepy tempi.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, but that's just bad, not bad in a good way.

[@stephengould4343]

How about Great Bad Pieces of classical music? Lefebure-Wely's Sortie comes to mind and some might argue for Wellington's Victory or Les Preludes...

[@LyleFrancisDelp]

Sad. Stoky could have built a good orchestra in Houston, had he stayed longer. But the bigoted board members refused to allow him to feature a black chorus with the orchestra in Beethoven's 9th...so he left. And the orchestra suffered for it.

[@MrRuplenas]

Yes the Beecham Messiah has its uses. It's a great party record for when folks are loaded and ready for some cheap laughs, like the snare drum and cymbal crashes in the Hallelujah chorus and the Brahmsian swells in the overture. C'mon Dave, the Beecham Messiah is - no question - a skidmark on the underpants of music.

[@Richard-b5r9v]

Celibedache was noted for his slow tempos which added to the drama of the music he conducted

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, it added to the boredom more often than not, especially combined with his mannered phrasing and rounded, soft-edged articulation. He was a slow-motion blur.

[@austinhan6998]

It did make it dramatic. Dramatically longer.