Ask Dave: What Is A "Reference" Recording?

[@mhc2231]

"Reference Recordings" is a fantastic idea for a series. Looking forward to it, David.

[@philippecassagne3192]

Wonderful idea for a new series ! Please do not forget baroque music !

[@OuterGalaxyLounge]

Classics Today's reference recordings have really brought some often-ignored superior recordings to my attention.

[@bobsala7780]

Great idea for a series of videos and I’ve watched several of them already. I'll play the game of trying to guess what the some of the picks for reference recordings will be: Barbirolli’s Mahler Fifth Klemperer’s Fidelio Solti’s Ring cycle Casal’s Bach Cello Suites Karajan’s Bruckner Eighth Richter’s Liszt Piano Sonata

[@jg5861]

How wonderful, Dave! I really can't wait for the series! By the way, you mentioned in passing that it would be great if you had more moments of debate with your colleagues about reference recordings and such, and I thought it would be great if you had them make videos with you time and again. It would really stimulate listeners to get nearer what the different points of view see as particularly attractive about their choice. And did I say thank you since it's 2024? Cheers!

[@MrYoumitube]

Without reference recordings, I would have spent probably hundreds of hours listening for that personal favorite recording. 8 times out 10 I generally agree with the ref recording, my method is to listen to reference recordings, and videos such as your Dave and read forums of fans' favorites, then make my own judgment.

[@dennischiapello7243]

Very helpful to understand what is and isn't meant by the term. It was also interesting to learn that not every work by a composer has a reference recording, as in your mention of Beethoven's Symphony #1. So, in a sense, composers have certain "reference compositions" that are considered significant and complex enough among their complete works to merit special consideration of what makes for a fully realized performance.

[@MickeyCoalwell]

This is a tough issue. Your definition works well, especially because you distinguish between a reference recording and one that is personally LIKED. I recognize some reference recordings that are not to my personal taste-but I know they are still reference recordings because of my experience and the critical consensus that I get from both listening and reading widely. I look forward to your new series of talks on the subject.

[@lovettboston]

This was the first work by any composer that I heard at a live performance. It was in 1966, with the Boston Symphony conducted by Erich Leinsdorf, and about four weeks after I was thrilled to come across the Bernstein recording at a record shop in Washington, DC. I was 13 years old, and hearing the music live was as exciting as watching my first game by a lowly Red Sox team at Fenway Park. Leinsdorf and the BSO were a notch above the Red Sox, but I thought even at the time they were no match for Bernstein and the NY Phil. I think it was Virgil Thomson who flagged the BSO's infatuation with its own refinement. Sometimes that was an asset, especially when it was whipped up by Munch, but it does not make the BSO a top-tier Mahler orchestra, even when it was led by Levine. A good Mahler sound is one that (if so directed by the composer) pushes beyond the boundary of refinement, yet without being slapdash. You almost feel as if the music is daringly new. Mahler draws on different kinds of source music, not so much to be subversive or chaotic as to create a kind of shifting perspective, with background and foreground, central and peripheral. That perspective is very important in the 3rd Symphony, where the effect verges on the spatial--or a collage (like on the album cover). That's what Mahler meant by saying a symphony is "like the world," and not just meaning size, gravitas or intellectual heft. What makes the Bernstein so great is that it gives the space, the "worldness," a sharp definition. The performance isn't perfect in every single respect (nor is any other I've heard), but it really gets what's most important.

[@Taosravenfan]

Excellent idea for a series. And boy howdy is that a great 5th. I would think coming up with reference recordings amongst classical reviewers is like herding cats.

[@xrrsss]

This series will surely be amazing, thanks Dave for all the efforts.

[@timothyweir8790]

When it comes to Reference, vive la différence! Or, consénsus-ence! Bring on the series.

[@davidkalinov4570]

Thanks Dave! Looking forward to the new series

[@scp240]

Love this concept, I will be watching studiously.

[@furdiebant]

Looking forward to this series.

[@jac9229]

Excellent talk. In a future “Ask Dave” would you please provide your thoughts on what a “remastering” is, how they are done, how they impact the sound of a recording, and how much value you attach to a CD saying it is a “remastered” version. Also, do you have any experience listening to “Pristine Classics” and, if yes, what do you think about them? Thanks!

[@neiltheblaze]

The Giulini recording of Verdi's "Requiem" is my reference recording for that work. That's the recording I had on LP. When I switched over to CD's in 1988, late that summer one of the splashy new releases was the Muti recording with La Scala - with Studer, and Pavarotti, et al, and I thought that looked pretty interesting. Well, when I finally got it home and heard it, I think I realized all at once that the Giulini was head and shoulders and waistline above La Scala. I say "La Scala" because that's what was wrong with the recording - both the orchestra and the venue. The recording sucks. There's no other way to put it. The chorus and percussion sound like they're in the room with you - over-miked and over-driven; the strings and woodwinds sound like they're down at the bottom of a well three rooms down. As best I can tell, the conducting is ok, and so are some individual sections - but though much of it the main soloists sound like they're mailing it in and are wondering when lunch is being served. I think it's the hall combined with a recording crew having a clueless couple of days. Anyway, the Giulini recording has earned the distinction of "reference recording" in my ears thanks to that rather instant comparison. Needless to say - I got the Giulini on CD as soon as EMI deigned to release it.

[@rickycpa]

Your comment highlights what will clearly be an interesting take on naming “reference recordings.” Going to a hard job convincing some listeners that the “consensus” pick is in fact the “correct” one. I’m looking forward to the anticipated lively discussion that will surely follow Dave’s choices. For example - I haven’t heard the Giulini Verdi Req and I’m certainly not trying to pick a fight, but I have never listened to a Giulini recording that I enjoyed. None! His tempi are death. Soooo slooooow! But that’s why this is gonna be fun. Can’t wait to see the picks.

[@neiltheblaze]

@@rickycpa Giulini can run hot or cold depending on the repertoire - but his recording of the Requiem sounds committed and like everyone was on the same team. I think everyone involved knew they were making something special. The Muti sounds like everyone was meeting a contractual obligation - and normally I quite like Muti. His recording was boring - not a quality I normally associate with Muti. Like I say, I blame the venue and the engineers mostly.

[@rickycpa]

@@neiltheblaze I guess ill have to hear Giulini’s Req. Gotta keep an open mind. I generally like Muti, but i guess everyone can have an off day. Heard him with CSO in Fl a couple of months ago doing Pictures @ Expo. Sensational!

[@ericleiter6179]

Definitely looking forward to this specific series...I think it's important to have some idea about the general consensus on these matters and works. I totally see what you mean about how a reference differs from a critic's favorite; as in the way, the Jacqueline Du Pre Elgar cello concerto would have to be a reference, yet I know you don't care for the work or that performance particularly, etc.but it's still one that should be mentioned as the reference...like Upshaw's recording of Gorecki's 3rd, etc...can't wait for the series

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Exactly. I don't dislike that performance of the Elgar, but as you say, I don't care for the work.

[@hendriphile]

Sure, we all have our favorites that we give as presents, recommend to all & sundry, and discuss on forums such as this one. To me what distinguishes a ‘reference’ is a Consistent Consensus of the professional (i. e., published) Critical Community. Over the years I’ve seen multiple reviews of the following and without exception they’ve been singled out as being at or near the top of the heap: Fleischer/Szell/LBV Concertos; Wild/Fiedler/Gershwin; and Bernstein/NYPO/Copland. Just my $.02 worth. Looking forward to this series!

[@cillyede]

I love this C. Kleiber 5th Symphonie. Thank again for your video. 🎶🇩🇪❤

[@patrickhackett7881]

Looking forward to the new series!

[@langsamwozzeck]

The tough part for me is when a conductor can get an orchestra to do things that seemingly no one else can. For example, Mravinsky with his strings, Munch when he turns the BSO up to 11, the Stokowski sound, etc. Can something be a reference recording if it's a near impossible standard that nobody else can replicate?

[@2134yanto]

Really looking forward to watching this series of videos Dave. I’m positive it will prove very interesting and informative to me. Request. Would it be possible to say exactly why a certain performance is widely accepted as the reference please? For eg, you mentioned the Kleiber Beethoven 5th. What aspects of the performance give it refers status please etc? Thanks

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I will discus that in each case.

[@fred6904]

It will be very interesting to see which works and recordings you choose!!!😀🎶💕🌟

[@wolfgangechelmeyer7597]

A great idea for a new series!! Dave, does "Reference" in your ears only refer to the artistic standard of a performance or would you also imply the technical, sonic qualities of a recording? Greetings from Germany

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Sonics may matter where there's an equivalent choice, but I am going by what the consensus is, not by my personal preferences (as much).

[@henriquelohmann]

Great idea for this new series, Dave. Does a recording have to conform to a certain commonly practiced style of interpretation (like Furtwängler's vs. Toscanini's Brahms, as you mentioned) on order to be held as a reference? Do unusual interpretive choices exclude a recording from that status, even if you like the results? On a more practical matter, do you also take into account the availability of the recording? All the best

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Watch the videos and find out!

[@Richard-s9s]

How are reference, favorite, and fidelity to composer intent intertwined?

[@kaswit007]

You seem never ran out of topics to talk about that nice of us.

[@bbailey7818]

Can a reference recording be like what the Supreme Court once said about pornography? Difficult to define, but you know it when you see, or rather, hear it. I certainly had that feeling today when I heard for the first time one of the recordings Dave recommended under great brass playing. The DG Steinberg/BSO recordings of both Hindemith's Concert Music, Op.50, and the Mathis der Maler Symphony. They just blew me away interpretively, the exection, and sonics. (I didn't feel that way about the coupled Schwanendreher under Barenboim but I don't especially like the piece.) Among all the versions I have that's now my Reference.

[@michelangelomulieri5134]

Incisione di riferimento

[@fredericmorris2931]

Wouldn’t you also want a reference recording to have at least good and ideally excellent sound?

[@bbailey7818]

That's a really interesting question. Because if outstanding sonics were not essential, to give just one example, I would consider Mengelberg's NY Philharmonic Heldenleben (1928) to be a reference recording. Or Elgar's recordings of his own works.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Personally, yes, but it's about the consensus, and it is what it is.

[@obbie1osias467]

What do you think about Bradley Cooper's Mahler 2nd?🤣🤣🤣

[@Richard-b5r9v]

The movie Maestro was an attempt to reference Leonard Bernstein s life with actor Bradley Cooper doing a good job portraying the famous conductor with the ending of Mahler s 2nd Symphony The Resurrection being the focus

[@obbie1osias467]

@@Richard-b5r9v Well! You just said it yourself: "It's an attempt" 🤣🤣🤣