David Simon on Treme, New Orleans, the Drug War, Obama, The Wire - And Disappointing Libertarians

UPDATED 9/21/2012: On his personal website, David Simon has accused Reason TV of producing a "shanked" interview with him. For links to his criticism, our response, and full audio of our hour-and-20-minute-long conversation with him that formed the basis of this video go to reason.com/blog/2012/09/21/dav...
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"At some point during the run of The Wire, I became a fellow traveler of the libertarians," says the acclaimed writer and television producer David Simon. "And then a great disappointment to them."
A self-proclaimed "lefty," Simon is the creator of the The Wire, which ran on HBO from 2002 to 2008 and depicted with tragic realism the impact of the drug war on inner-city Baltimore. Over five seasons, The Wire told a series of complex, interwoven stories built around major themes of the modern American city, including the decline of the working waterfront, failing schools, faltering newspapers, the unseemly side of local politics, and, more generally, how bureaucratic institutions thwart reform-minded individuals.
In writing The Wire, Simon drew on his 13-years as a reporter at The Baltimore Sun and his 1991 book, Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets, which is derived from Simon's stint as an embed with the Baltimore Police Department's homicide division. Producer Barry Levinson later turned the book into an Emmy-award-winning series that ran on NBC from 1993 to 1998.
Simon co-wrote (with David Mills) The Corner (2000), an HBO miniseries that depicts inner-city Baltimore ravaged by the drug trade, and he co-wrote HBO's Generation Kill, a miniseries based on a book by Evan Wright about a Marine Corps unit during the 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq.
Simon's blistering indictment of the drug war frames Eugene Jarecki's new documentary on the subject, The House I Live In, and he's an outspoken critic of the state of the newspaper industry. In 2009, Simon testified before the Senate Commerce Committee that shrinking newsrooms imperil our democracy.
HBO's Treme is Simon's latest project, which offers a multi-faceted look at post-Katrina New Orleans and the music scene that makes the city so unique. Treme's third season starts this Sunday on HBO.
Simon was last interviewed in Reason in 2004, and retired Baltimore homicide and narcotics detective Ed Burns, who was Simon's collaborator on The Wire and other projects, was interviewed in Reason in 2008.
Reason.com Editor in Chief Nick Gillespie sat down with Simon last week to discuss Treme, the state of New Orleans, the drug war, President Obama, school choice, private prisons, the newspaper industry, and Simon's antipathy towards libertarians.
Go to Reason.com for a print version of that edited discussion.
About 21 minutes.
Produced by Jim Epstein; shot by Epstein and Meredith Bragg.
Go to Reason.com for downloadable versions and subscribe to Reason TV's KZbin Channel to receive automatic updates when new material is live.
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UPDATED 9/21/2012: On his personal website, David Simon has accused Reason TV of producing a "shanked" interview with him. For links to his criticism, our response, and full audio of our hour-and-20-minute-long conversation with him that formed the basis of this video go to reason.com/blog/2012/09/21/dav...

[@ziweiyuan]

Nick Gillespie needs to learn how to shut up and let his subject talk in interviews. It seems you almost never meet a Libertarian who isn't a myopic fanatic.

[@tomdoyle2272]

I think hes a pothole, but the interview is actually good.

[@fausto412]

Quality reporting is almost dead. I'm with David Simon on this.

[@ellenmeilee]

Wasn’t the point DS was making more about the quantity of reporters these days at a paper, than the quality of reporters’ writing?

[@kenansinav1]

to the interviewer; Let the guy speak

[@TheDevindevine]

Gillespie clearly had an agenda. I know this because he never addressed any of Mr. Simon s points. he just kept on his ,clearly libertarian slanted point. this was not an interview. it was an attack.

[@wenders99]

Attack? C'mon, man. Be reasonable. Hyperbole? Indeed.

[@zapproowsdower]

There was no attack - it was a clashing of contradictory mindsets. David Simon has a more or less clear mind, Gillespie has a more or less warped mind. He lacks a basic, logical progression from observation to analysis to conclusion so most of his points are fucked.

[@wenders99]

I can only hope you recognize the irony in your use of fallacy to reach your conclusion here.

[@DaleRobby]

You know this because David Simon told you to believe it.

[@Saggezzza]

"Freedom can never be entirely won, ever but it can be lost"

[@EugenTemba]

"You might want to reflect on that." I loved that moment. The interviewee is dissing the interviewer half the time and I am loving it.

[@jackmarting5607]

Thank you for everything Mr Simon. from a New Iberia who loves New Orleans

[@norFUNKRecords76]

You are awesome. Definitely a hero of mine. Great job on Treme! Congrats on such a great show. So sorry it is ending.

[@prycelessly]

Having no knowledge of Simon or his work, I watched the interview without preconception or expectation. You write that Gillespie discusses Simon's "antipathy towards libertarians." After viewing this interchange, it is apparent that Simon's "antipathy" is to Gillespie, above all else. It was an interesting exchange.

[@jgribhamnz]

Agreed 100%

[@southportjim1]

Exactly right. He's not talking 'black markets', he's talking outsourcing of prisons. Corporations bid on these contracts and make a healthy profit from them; paying low wages to their employees and providing minimal service. They also profit on sales to inmates in the prison commissaries and charging the inmate's family exorbitant service charges when they send money or pay court costs online. We're in a bad place when high incarceration is 'good for business'.

[@mcstratoman]

I think this interviewer needs to let the person he chose to interview speak. Simon is clearly the more informed and seems to have less ego going on here.

[@AnBhfacaTuMoBristi]

The interviewer does a terrible job. This is painful to watch

[@PhyllisMLeblanc]

Loved working with David Simon on "TREME." Great guy. Very intelligent. A Visionary. He sees what many don't and gets it. I am very grateful for the stories being told of New Orleans. I am "Desiree." And it was great doing the series. We wrapped filming Season 4 of "TREME" today and as much as it is the final season for the series, my comfort is that I will have each DVD of the seasons and that is all....

[@0v_x0]

Oh hey, you're a legend

[@FirebrandAL]

Uh, who hates this? Honestly. Love the back and forth. Two smart dudes pushing each other. Better off for watching it.

[@Numonkei]

..."I was glad when he died"...the John Gtoodman character...based on fact...this man performing the interview is a sincere example of why many of us are ashamed of our species. And this must be what Simon referred to with the interview with a 'prison union' segue.

[@mateomoritz]

Agreed. This is not an interview where people need to get enraged about one side or the other. These guys managed to have an intelligent, productive argument without getting red faced and resorting to one liners like most media these days.

[@garethtthomas]

That was very interesting. David Simon can be a bit defensive sometimes, and he certainly doesn't suffer fools gladly; but he is also very smart, very sharp and very self-aware. More art should follow his lead in seeking truth over preaching - honesty rather than ideology leads to better work, whatever your place on the political spectrum.

[@MissMalevolent]

Nick has balls...and a lot of patience with that meandering bullshit Simon was shoveling.

[@MrBildo]

David Simon is a wacky guy. It's like he was on the defensive the whole time and I couldn't figure out why. I can't even say that I think guy actually believes a lot of what was saying. Like he's confused or something. Odd interview. Kudos to Nick, as usual.

[@hiramnoone]

See what David Mamet thought of Obama's veracity in his declaration of being a Chicago White Sox fan, having claimed to have enjoyed many of their games at "Cominsky Field". When asked who his favorite player was, a newsman running cover for him had to stop him from saying Lew Gehrig.

[@arthousecouch]

Read the bottom of the description of the video. This will sum up how this interview went.

[@squinkque]

I'm not sure why Simon thinks Reason railroaded him on this interview. He comes off as a thoughtful, passionate guy. Politically wrongheaded but not idiotic. Gillespie and him spar politely and a little heatedly but nothing gets ugly. I like Simon more after this interview and I disagree with him vehemently on his support of Obama, Holder, et. al.

[@PhyllisMLeblanc]

This interview dude seems to "Want" 2 "Seem" Smart. Lol. It shows SO much how intimidated he is of David. Apparently he forgot what David's career was long before this business. Seriously. Do your homework. You MIGHT pass the "Simon",test. And dude is trying to "shank" David.

[@PedroSantos-lr2qd]

LOVED how Simon responded to the balzacian comment

[@justinhand123]

Nice Ad hom. Really gets the point across.

[@PhyllisMLeblanc]

Not sure airing date for season finale. We wrapped last week. Usually airs April. But don't quote me on that.:-)

[@BenignCentaur]

David Simon works in TV. His shows live and die by ratings. I think he understands market forces better than most.

[@Monkeyninjaghost]

Thank you! It was the best I could do in 500 characters ;)

[@cliftonmeans]

Wow.....I came to hear David Simon and I have to sit thru this interviewer interrupting and trying to push his agenda!!! SHUT UP!!!

[@cityhawk80]

Most libertarians don't know what pure market forces mean

[@ivandesantis858]

David is an important voice and a man of intellect and he loves to point out everything that's wrong with the country but he's too defensive and can't handle criticism of his work.

[@browsertab]

I like David Simon and I like The Wire. So many HBO/Showtime TV shows are just excuses to slap adult content on the same old soap opera fare. The Wire always explored strong themes in every season - it's really the best series ever.

[@sgtmcwallace]

Regarding both of their print references to Christopher Hitchens on the blog and reason hit and run. Hitch used to speak of how light couldnt come from anything possibly other than heat. The light thrown off here comes from some good heat.

[@dmg46664]

Great interview! Let's have more of this type, where you're not cross examining the converted.

[@rightarmofwyoming]

"Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?" lol.

[@animejoao]

now that is my kind of interview, you shold colide with the guest in order to achieve a better understanding of the facts and ideals of that person. very interesting to watch.

[@Ace19444]

I thought he was talking along the lines of privately owned prisons, which horrifyingly are a real thing

[@PhyllisMLeblanc]

I think it was easy to write Hidalgo's character. Jon Seda great guy. Really.

[@StraightFromTheAbove]

The only man in america who missed the days when you had to read a newspaper

[@NinjaHydra]

In response to Simon's comment at 15:38 - privatized prisons combined with the enforcement power of the government is the DEFINITION of corporatism and is the DIRECT ANTITHESIS of laissez-faire.

[@Anupam19781]

Don't know any of his background, love David Simon, but I really find this interviewer irritating.

[@Elizafire85]

Well anyone who’s glad Creighton Is dead is clearly a monster 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@CALLE92JOHANSSON]

@@Elizafire85 or they're just an identity politics libertarian who can't like someone if they have different world views from themselves.

[@FryingBayou]

Talking about culture of Nola. Interviewer calls Creighton a "white guilt liberal" he's "happy when he dies". He loses DS respect with this statement. Goodman's character was the most complex. The interviewer pretends to have an insight-but you cannot fake sincerity. His ideology is weird to say the least.

[@kpoff5128]

I think it was in regards to pure market forces relating to drugs. In which case, you can’t really use the expression since the drug market is fueled by federal regulation. Pure market forces would represent a market without regulation. I guess, it’s whatever man, I love the wire and generation kill. .

[@4squaremiles]

This video needs more cutaways to Nick nodding and going "uhuh" over the person he's interviewing. And then flashing his name. And the channel he's from. Which is also the one this is literally on. Which is also literally written right below.

[@SamirTheG69]

Gillespie most likely did not know that and was just saying that he didn't like the character and was glad he died on the show.

[@runelord37]

Intelligent guy that is still prey to the left/right paradigm.

[@trick29420]

Yes. It is the greatest show to ever have aired on television. If you intend on watching it. Start from the beginning.

[@holosc]

The prison system can only be considered a market force if it happens without ridiculous laws about the usage of drugs in a voluntary fashion. Drug use occurs because of tremendous childhood trauma.

[@BenignCentaur]

If only we could recall memories as a computer processor accesses info from a hard drive. :)

[@PhyllisMLeblanc]

Thanks. I'm sorry it's ending too.

[@blainebillingsley]

Listened to the whole thing. Gillespie is a very interruptive, ideologically driven interviewer. Not impressed by him. It's awesome that David Simon calls him out on it constantly though. Boo Gillespie!

[@marshaul]

You said it. I wish Nick had said precisely this; I'd have liked to see the reaction.

[@jackcovey1832]

Libertarian interviewer Nick Gillespie despises Creighton (John Goodman) as just a "white liberal", and felt happy when Creighton died? It's hard to take anything Gillespie says after that seriously---intelligent and articulate as he may be.

[@jackcovey1832]

Whether or not Goodman's character is fictional or not is beside the point. What this Randian douche is saying --- and what it reveals about himself --- is. Taking pleasure in the death of someone, fictional or not, is indicative of someone who is a jerk in need of counseling. I'm also at a loss as to how and why holding such an opinion makes one "a pussy." Is that calling someone "a pussy" part of some secret, Objectivist inner doctrine of which I'm unaware?

[@jedenasty10]

+Jack Covey so you were never happy that a character died on screen? not even Darth Vader or someone like that? cmon now dont be silly

[@cgtz9526]

That was a really stupid thing to say. John Goodmans character is upset that the goverment has forgotten his city . That isn't a white guilt liberal.

[@beatlesfan129]

Goodman's character a "white guilt liberal"? Did Gillespie even watch the show?

[@COODALOVEYA]

ask for more of the wire people are still waiting

[@ElmarKulke]

this interview got me way much deeper into the american society and poltical habits then any other documentary or schoolbook might have ever gotten me into i guess. thx

[@4EyedAnimation]

If he feels shanked after seeing the interview...it maybe that he feels embarrassed that he saw he didn't have well reasonedarguments 9or as well as he thought he had) and was all emotion

[@zombiesingularity]

Great interview with interesting points by David Simon.

[@sherwoodblockhd]

can be terminated based on ANY circumstances. the corporation WILL NOT be investigated nor will any of the employees be interviewed to find out what really happened in the work place... the prison system is the new slavery and has been that way for almost 100 years... i completely despise the politicans of louisiana because they are only after under the table deals and back alley meetings you would think they get into public office to help out the communties they come from but instead they

[@sleedolfine15]

Thankyou for saying that--I wish Nick,who knows what you are saying,had called Simon out on that very point.

[@jarrbear05]

Mr. Simon asks "what is your freaking alternative?" to people saying there is "too much government." Well, looking at the issues he takes on in "The Wire": End the drug war, open up the schools to competition via charters, vouchers or tax credits and work for smaller government which takes power away from politicians. That's my alternative.

[@qkljhewgfhergk]

That's a stupid alternative that leads to corporate tyranny. You just handed the keys of the world over to Jeff Bezos. Thanks.

[@brettbewley5798]

This misses the issue. The problem isn't specifically the size and reach of the government but rather the bias and corruption. Right now our country's sole priority is to remain the dominant world power. Serving and taking care of its own populice is completely secondary.

[@aseredy]

That's an excellent point. The reason why the state takes center stage in the critique, is that fact that it's proxies have guns and the legal authority to use them. While I'm no fan of Goldman, that corporation doesn't have soldiers and drones. I mean, you wouldnt blame a soccer player for kicking the ball into a mile wide goal if the rules say its legal; you'd blame the people that make the rules.

[@humanhiveanomaly]

Too many people have this misconception that since some institutions isn't under the direct payroll of the state, that this is a "free market". Those institutions that he speaks of sure are private, but about as close to a free market as lockheed martin is.

[@forfreedomssake4315]

I love David Simon. Genius this man.

[@marshaul]

Witness the continued confusion between sector-shifting in the economy (specifically the job market) and outsourcing or a reduction in the availability of work. The process to which you refer is universally correlated with the highest standard of living, greatest technological advancement, etc.

[@SamirTheG69]

He was referring to a fictional television character

[@understandingpower]

Anyone that only critiques the state without mentioning the concentrated economic power that effectively controls and runs the antiquated state, which seems to be inevitable in capitalist democracies, might wonder about their concept of freedom.

[@Mdriver1981]

The problem with David Simon, I think, is he doesn't get people talking back to him all that much. People just fawn over him like he is the second coming. I am not saying he is wrong on all things, absolutely not, but Gillespie is correct in telling Simon that it the news is worse now than it was, or that more employees at a newspaper means better newspapers, etc.

[@john26razor]

While I agree a lot more with Gillespie's ideology, I found this interview distasteful and poorly done.

[@Ismlor]

Interrupting - one of the most aggravating traits of an interviewer there is. Dude needs to shut up and let the 'other' guy be the star that he is

[@runelord37]

That is not laissez-faire. That is crony capitalism.

[@garethtthomas]

I wonder if this wasn't edited in a slightly strange way. David Simon says, at one point, "You're bringing some kind of weird ideology into it..." - that doesn't seem to follow on from what Nick Gillespie said, which is a fairly innocuous comment about the LA times always being a booster for the city. Giving David Simon the benefit of the doubt, I don't see why he would say that such a remark was "ideology". That doesn't make sense, but edited in that way it makes David Simon look irrational.

[@robinsss]

what views of his are outdated?

[@Knonsense981]

It is not laissez-faire for the government to create an artificial market for something on taxpayer dime. I don't understand how anyone could come to that conclusion.

[@strepsil08]

The interviewer isn't fit to change David Simon's ink cartridge.

[@kbr7171]

Love Nick. No Quarter.

[@ARKAEA33]

I feel like this guy is too busy with his television projects and hasn't really looked into political matters much. He seems fairly intelligent, but isn't really knowledgeable about the topics he's covering in this particular interview. Like talking about how markets are the reason for incarceration rates, yet totally ignoring the laws that led to this system being created. State did it, private sector furthered it, he blames the private sector. Wrong.

[@spunkitydoda]

KZbin is the modern day news room.

[@UPutTheGayInGangster]

Free trade is not the reason so many are incarcerated in this country. Market forces? Perhaps, in response to the incentives and framework laid out by the governing body; who's authority, at such a point, should go unrecognized.

[@kpoff5128]

Good point, I made this comment sometime ago and not sure what it was in regards too.

[@AtotheDamn]

quit interrupting David Simon!

[@HanStanwell]

what I meant was, this guy is blaming drug prohibition on laissez-faire

[@tsummerlee]

So Simon has no intention of proving his claim that dwindling newspaper staffing is the result of Wall Street? Funny how he accuses Nick of making an "emotional argument."

[@peteagassi]

Why does this guy remind me so much of Jonathan Nolan? He sounds just like him!

[@ellenmeilee]

Blimey in between the very frequent interrupting of each other there’s a good conversation

[@sgtmcwallace]

Did he really just say Disaster capitalism..........really?

[@MrStephenRGilman]

David Simon makes the error of equating a desire to LIMIT the POWER of government with a desire to ELIMINATE the RESPONSIBILITIES of government. It's a false equation.

[@understandingpower]

Well given that we live within the confines of a state-capitalist society, I don't think it's incorrect to blame the state distorted market outcomes (i.e., the private profit for continually incarcerating more and more people). Sure, this isn't simply free-market forces doing their work, so he shouldn't have simply said "markets" without pairing that with government, but this is why capitalism with democracy don't appear to be compatible.

[@kev3d]

I can honestly say I have never seen a single minute of "The Wire." Is it any good?

[@TKe-wf2to]

Yes

[@understandingpower]

The whole point Simon was making was that the "alternative source of news" is not sufficient for actually attempting to understand what's happening within large cities and that he believes this will have a large negative impact on the quality of our institutions (which I agree with). But thanks for your completely contentless and useless comment.

[@AminEL7]

news,"you cover the ground and you find out whats going on..."

[@AminEL7]

Amin EL Some things the market should not dictate, private sector should not police communities, definitely the government's responsibility...

[@dfresh93086]

Don’t talk while your interview subject is speaking. You might miss something…just like the interviewer missed the meaning on the death of John Goodman in Treme. To be “happy” about it just shows that he completely missed the tragedy of it and has a serious lack of empathy and compassion.

[@Tsnore]

How come Simon comes across as if others' views have no validity because they haven't been there or done that or think like he does? Oh wait a minute; he'll think I am being ad hominem here.

[@runelord37]

I dont dislike him or that point.

[@jcarabet9901]

Who the fuck is this guy who keeps interrupting David Simon??

[@understandingpower]

The rules the state creates are the end process of the interests groups with power, and in America that has almost always been overwhelmingly concentrated economic power. Given they often staff and or massively influence the most important areas of government and often write legislation through lobbyists, I think it's better to picture the government as an intermediary between various industries that can occasionally be influenced by the public. IMO it's a mistake to think of them as separate.

[@UPutTheGayInGangster]

David Simon is irrational... just before the comment you mentioned he calls the interviewer emotionally disconnected. Furthermore, I don't see any editing.

[@understandingpower]

It's the result of the interaction between the state and capitalism, he understands quite well the results of institutions that arise when capitalism and the state are mixed. However, you're correct that these problems aren't due to a "free market" and the propoganda and talking points have permeated his consciousness and Simon did say "free market." But this mythical free-market has never existed and it's likely wouldn't last long if it did (although I'm open to being persuaded otherwise).

[@aerocabin]

"My father used to say this at every single passover seder...freedom can never be entirely won" And there is the source of his irrational belief in the state, not from empiricism, but because of his father's indoctrination. Just because he has a pessimistic view of freedom doesn't mean he and his antiquated state should prohibit the freedom of others.

[@ls1z28chris]

I suggest you learn how to use teh googles. FYYFF is one of Morris' most famous rants. He was a voice for the people of this city. What I don't understand is why a libertarian would dislike the guy. The rant about Tulane dropping its engineering programs? Lifted directly from one of Morris' blog posts where he openly expresses distain for liberal arts programs and states that we should be investing in engineers who can build things. What libertarian would dislike that message?