Dawn of Iron Rule Review

[@sparkey6746]

My wife read the shirt, "I have too many Miniatures" and said, "Is that even possible?" Which is why I love that woman so much 🥰

[@deathmagnetic300]

This whole campaign build up has me emotionally invested lol I can't wait for the next batrep to learn more about this part of the war!

[@LittleWarsTV]

We'll be back again this week with the next chapter in the story!

[@attea1942]

Thanks for the review! I was taking lots of notes for the book ;)

[@r_a_t7046]

How dare Dave question if people want to 3d print ironclads! Everyone should want to print ironclads! There is no excuse to not print ironclads! And to cut out the question of searching for ironclad dealers, listed in order of quality - East Coast Ironclads, Thoroughbred, Bay Area Yards, and Peter Pig.

[@attea1942]

^^^ 100% this. For shame! ;)

[@mrgunn2726]

Really excellent review, it kept me engaged, loved the back and forth between the two of you. At 00:15:35 you mention table clutter, seems like a Ship Systems Diagram would have been better than a card solution, one 5x8 card with all the system and conditions for each ship, thinking ADB's Federation Commander. OMG, yes, 00:20:42, thank you, the wild turning radius of the CSS Virginia was crazy town. Thank you so much for this review!

[@attea1942]

Thanks for those thoughts! The turning radius stuff is something that's been plaguing me for a while. I've got a few design restraints, such as using only 45 and 90 degree arcs, but more importantly I avoid "negative" rules such as penalties. It's a design philosophy rule I picked up at Battlefront, that's its better for the general gameplay outcome to have a special ability and forget to use it rather than have a penalty and forget to use it. One leaves you feeling embarrassed that you forgot something, the other carries the twinge of unintentional cheating. So when designing I aim to account for negatives as the baseline, giving ships with better turning circles an advantage instead. So in Dawn of Iron, all ships can turn 45, and using an orders card you can turn even more tightly to 90. Smaller ships can take better advantage of the turn orders as they can burn through the orders faster and react more accurately. The Virginia will need to plan out their turns in advance, whereas the Monitor can respond faster and turn tighter more quickly. It's not an ideal setup, but the most simple for the complexity level I was aiming at :)

[@mrgunn2726]

@@attea1942 Mr. Haught, I feel honored the designer responded to my reaction. I appreciate the response and appreciate the context provided about the design decisions you made. Since the reviewers, by their own admission, omitted the orders phase, it is perhaps an important feature that would have given a more accurate portrayal of the CSS Virginia's abilities. Again, the Orders phase reminds me of the Impulse phase mechanic used in ADBs original Star Fleet Battles Game, where ship captains pre-plotted their movements each turn. Thanks again for your insights! MrGunn

[@anathardayaldar]

Love the "Little Warriors" greeting.

[@dalerobinson8051]

Maybe price should be a category. I seem to recall prices above forty bucks. If you already have ships or don't mind cutting out some paper vessels, you can't go wrong for $12, as Greg observed. Especially good to see the creator responding to comments. Up that Support score, boys!

[@LittleWarsTV]

Price is definitely a consideration with every rule set we review and discuss--we ALWAYS address the cost as part of the final summary. And yea, in this case, the price for Dawn of Iron is simply hard to beat for a complete game system.

[@mrgunn2726]

PS: One of LWTV's mandate is to grow the hobby, I think a new category you should add: Are these rules a good choice to engage and create a new hobbyist? Keep up the great work!

[@LittleWarsTV]

Great idea, and in this case for Dawn of Iron, that's a resounding YES.

[@get_the_lead_out]

Two things from my observations that might help out. First, point blank shots should add to the number of hits, rather than shifting the column. That might make the ships less crunchy. Second, the yellow cards should count as hull hits as well - at least until they are repaired. That would make them seem less extraneous. Very even-handed review guys - thanks.

[@attea1942]

Great thoughts! I might dig into the point-blank rules a bit more as you gain a double bonus, one makes it easier to hit the target and the other increases the impact of the hit. Perhaps both is too much together.

[@martinevans9757]

Can't help thinking someone is spitting the dummy at 7" Rifle range... 🙃 But anyway, given the great number of modules and other support Scary Biscuit has created for DoI, I submit that this is the best game for ACW naval currently in production. It's a modern production, and it is not the nit-picking, rivet-measuring bore-fest that is commonly the lot of naval minis games. Also, I suspect that the game was not written with the idea of multiple players, each with only a few ships. Such divisions of command sometimes result in a player who, through chance or design, winds up twiddling their thumbs with beaten units, while others are still getting stuck in. That definitely happens in real naval warfare, so why not on the tabletop? 😊 All that aside, thank you for the review, and thanks especially for the anniversary game video, which rekindled my interest in this subject, and sparked me to buy AoI. Fair winds!

[@robertmills8640]

Would luv to know more about the "other"Ironclad rules you touched on at the end that you guys have played. I really enjoyed the old "Ironclads" boardgame and the" Age of Iron" miniatures game.

[@LittleWarsTV]

We've played a few, but I'd say the club favorite (at least before Dawn of Iron) has always been Peter Pig's "Hammerin Iron." We should review it sometime...that game would get a 1 or 2 for Presentation, but damn it's fun. There are some great mechanics that limit your options with the ships so they don't zip around nearly as freely as you can in Dawn of Iron. Totally different gameplay but also "beer and pretzels" in style.

[@richardklug822]

Others have commented on the resemblance to SW:Armada in its use of orders cards. I believe that mechanic goes even further back, to the Sails of Glory naval miniatures wargame set in the Napoleonic era...not quite "beer and pretzels", but still very quick playing and enjoyable.

[@haroldmorgan7381]

We've battled Civil War Ironclads Battle of Mobile Bay, Hampton Roads, Battle of Charleston, Battle below Vicksburg all with HAND-CRAFT SHIPS that we made ourselves and a One-pager Rules-sheet - Great Fun ! There's also other period battles of wooden and ironclad battles in Europe at this time ( Battle of Lissa etc.) which are very interesting also !!

[@DeePsix501]

Wait - Greg gave a TEN? He gives TENs?

[@LittleWarsTV]

Not his first TEN! That's a fun scavenger hunt...who can find the first TEN awarded?

[@WendyDaCanuck]

I miss the simple graphic design on plain paper that rules had back in the 90’s and early 2000’s. I find most modern sets too cluttered and too expensive but I have always had some contrarian tendencies. Great review as always guys.

[@mrgunn2726]

:D Offdah Wendy, be careful what you wish for. In Ye Olden Days, we had five hundred page SPI rules sets that were written in ISO documentation format: "This page is intentionally left blank". Although the section numbering system made it much easier to reference a specific rule.

[@TedJameson]

The stacked orders that resolve in sequence and the damage deck both indicate to me that Star Wars Armada was a big design influence. Which is fine by me, I love Armada!

[@LittleWarsTV]

Armada is a lot of fun and you can see clear influences with many of the modern FFG systems (and Battlefront systems) running throughout Dawn of Iron.

[@attea1942]

You'd be right! :) Armada/XWing/Tanks/Wings of Glory were all swirling in my head as I put pen to paper.

[@davefranklin4136]

Interesting, thoughtful and thorough review, as we've come to expect from LWTV! A couple of thoughts I had WRT generic pdf-only: First, full disclosure: I'm almost 60, so I'm not a millenial or younger, but I very much like pdf rules. There was a time I preferred reading hard copy rules, but that's not as much of an issue as it used to be, and pdf rules (as long they're not a scan) allow me to keyword search them on a tablet/laptop when I'm playing. That being said, I think I'd ding a pdf-only game that has things like unit and damage cards, counters, etc. Printing out a QRS is fine (and I frequently take the time to make my own more comprehensive QRSs for games), but I don't like having to print/make other items. The other thing I think I might ding, or I would certainly reward, is having links in the pdf - at a minimum in the TOC.

[@LittleWarsTV]

Agreed, and we were excited to hear Mike is working on a printed option. Given the graphic design work he put into making this game look so good, it's definitely worthy of a fully printed version!

[@attea1942]

Great suggestions! The cards are certainly the most annoying to print out! So I'm looking into card packs and what it will take to produce them on demand. Also going to look into larger cards ;)

[@davefranklin4136]

@@attea1942 Larger cards sounds like a good idea from my perspective. When I mentioned I frequently make my own more comprehensive QRSs, the other thing I aspire to is to make it so I can read it with out resorting to my reading glasses!

[@totalburnout5424]

This was a elaborated review. Especially the criticisms give a good impression of what to expect. Thumb up!

[@LittleWarsTV]

Thanks! Over the last year or so folks have asked for us to increase the length and comprehensiveness of our rule reviews. We like to give the people what they want!

[@squigoth]

"Dawn of Iron" was my name suggestion for the game... 8-)

[@3tacoman]

Great review my dudes 👍🏼

[@MisterNizz]

Thanks for the review. I bought it but haven't played it yet. Would be interested in hearing Greg say what he actually does prefer as a Civil War naval game WITH period flavor. The only one I can mention is Ironclads and that can be a bit of a slog without a calculator.

[@gregwaugh616]

And you hit the nail on the head. Beer and pretzels does not lend itself to in depth historical accuracy. Bottom line was it fun? And as an occasional thing does scratch that ACW naval itch?

[@LittleWarsTV]

YES and YES!

[@gregwaugh616]

@@LittleWarsTV then it passes muster. But all your points are valid!

[@attea1942]

I would agree. There was one point during development that I remember where I sat at this very keyboard and had to make the call which fork in the river to go down, bespoke or general. After much deliberation, I went down the more generic and simple rules system for two reasons. One, I wanted to use the same system across multiple periods so having too many ACW-specific rules was somewhat problematic (however, I should note that I drew A LOT of the flavor back in, in the form of Upgrade cards). Secondly, I saw there were already a lot of great in-depth ironclad games, but no really easy entry points. I'd go so far as to say that naval wargaming in general lacks good onramps to this most excellent genre, so I wanted to do my part and provide one. Combine that with reason 1 to expand into other periods and hopefully I can help widen the player base a bit!

[@geebards]

Just a suggestion (and I haven't played it): you could consider limiting the number of yellow cards per ship (say three). Every time you get a new card or more, your have to select which three you will retain - imagining repairs or work-arounds have overcome the other yellow card effects.

[@attea1942]

This is an area I'd like to develop a bit further to tease out my intent better and reduce the clutter. However, one thing that perhaps didn't come across in the videos (and that's my fault for the rules being a little obscure) was the Derelict rules. When a ship has an equal amount of damage cards to it's hull value, it becomes a derelict and ceases to operate entirely until you get the damage repaired and that count back down. It also becomes immobile making it easier to hit. So it's a sitting duck. So rather than sinking the ship (which is hard to do), its more useful to immobilize it and focus on other targets or carry on with your mission's objectives.

[@NottinghamLacrosse]

The order system sounds like it came straight out of the Star Wars: Armada ruleset. It's a great mechanic in that game, with ships like Star Destroyers needing to plan multiple turns ahead, but like you say it can get a bit much if you have more than a few ships on each side.

[@LittleWarsTV]

As a planning mechanic it's clever and it works, but once you have more than 2 ships per player it can become cluttered. But on average you're only looking at 2 order/command cards per ship (3 at most). Where it really gets crazy is the damage cards. We had ships with 10 of them! And most of the cards have some kind of effect you need to track so even with 2 ships per player that can get very, very difficult to remember. We started writing down notes paper just to remind ourselves what was going on.

[@attea1942]

The orders very much are intended to give your that in-the-pilothouse feel, so you're right that it works best for 1-3 ships. However, I love the idea of forgoing the Orders as a way to scale up the game to handle more ships. I'm going to add that into the rulebook as an alternative format.

[@LittleWarsTV]

@@attea1942 It worked great without the orders for a big game, but we did very much like the order system when we ran this at the club with a handful of ships. Some of the orders--particularly like "Flank Speed"--didn't seem appropriate for ships of the era, but as a mechanic we liked the 1, 2 or 3 card planning system for it.

[@CryHavocWarGaming]

Love the revision on the support. Well done.

[@LittleWarsTV]

Given the huge amount of additional content Mike is pumping out for this, an "update" to the review was more than warranted!

[@esargot]

Is it any way to get this set of rules? I was trying at Wargamer Vault but they weren't available there.

[@TheMartymar1976]

It was a fun game to watch, as a Navy guy loved the naval combat. More naval combat please!

[@davidschneider5462]

Thanks for the review, but I'm left wondering which rules set is better for historical accuracy and still plays well?

[@bigsarge2085]

Awedome review!

[@andrewcook3983]

Just to point it out, Dave doesn't give his Final Score...Not that it would be too different from Greg;s, they were only ever a point of two different in each category.

[@benjaminloyd6056]

I am wondering which ruleset you guys are using for the Peninsular Campaign?

[@batesmt25]

What amount of time does a turn represent?

[@richm5276]

Can anyone help to find the ships to 3D print stl files Thanks

[@theofficerfactory2625]

I wonder if they have the Onondaga?

[@zug1974]

I'm new to the channel: Who's the club member who makes an appearance at 23:58? Is that the club president? 🐶

[@LittleWarsTV]

Greg's dog crashed the party for a cameo appearance. She usually only appears in Patreon videos but seemed curious to learn more about Dawn of Iron

[@anathardayaldar]

Is there a modifier for the headache those poor sailors get as cannon balls klang off the metal deck?

[@mikedeslauriers6130]

This makes me think of the print on demand game, Broadsides: Empires of Steel. A ww1 dreadnaught naval game.

[@JadeCaulfield]

Funny you should say that, one plagiarized the other and I will give you a hint...it wasn't this one.

[@Gulronike]

About ramming. I have heard of a Star Trek games that they built in ramming but they made it weak. You would most likely lose your ship and only deal a little damage. It was done so ramming wasn’t done in every game but only as a desperate last stand. It was done that way because in “real” life the life of crew and the ship are important and making the rule this way makes that show up in the game.

[@attea1942]

Ramming was a major tactic and when used well (such as Hampton Roads) it was devastating. But look no further than the battles of Plum Point Bend and Memphis for the most epic ramming battles as you'll ever see this side of Salamis! Also, I *think* that I've since updated the ramming (and boarding) rules since this was filmed. Ramming is a lot more of an option, especially if your ship is armed with a proper ram! :)

[@vickyking3408]

Peter Pig UK do Iron Clads

[@LittleWarsTV]

We love their game, Hammerin Iron. It's much less historically accurate than Dawn of Iron (and waaaaay less pretty) but it has some awesome mechanics.

[@LiscenedColonial]

Yo ima get some 6mm civil war miniatures from baccus and ima use black powder rules

[@LittleWarsTV]

Both good choices--you'll have fun! We have 6mm Baccus figures and Black Powder here at the club.

[@LiscenedColonial]

I ment to say Zulu war lol I had like civil war copied

[@Blutgang]

Good review and agree with the flaws and pass on it. However your update at least will keep my ears up. Maybe a rules revision early on would be in order for the designer.

[@robertdelaney4332]

Orders and damage System sound similar to Star Wars Armada.

[@alienworm1999]

a better mic may be in order, the hissing is incredibly distracting

[@hangarflying]

Turn down the volume a bit and it’s just fine.