DCS World: P-51 Mustang vs. Bf-109 Dogfight

[@JIMJAMSC]

Patience is key in ww2 dog fighting. I walked away from DCS because the ai were ufos with no restraints such as gs,engine failure,inertia etc. Got tired of every one of their hits being critical where as I was shooting marshmallows. Seems to be better now. Still if I run my engine like yours I am guaranteed to smoke it quick.

[@Specter0420]

So did you do the old "give the 109 100% fuel and give yourself 15% so you can have a chance" thing or is this AI on easy?

[@lukeswann2859]

Specter0420 probably it being on easy, I rarely touch the fuel settings. It was starting the fight at high altitude that made the difference for me.

[@Twister051]

Holy crap, those graphics are amazing!

[@lukeswann2859]

Twister051 you ain't seen nothing yet

[@lukeswann2859]

This is DCS world! Check it out i think youll like it!

[@Twister051]

Where do I go to see more? Just google DCS or is it a channel here on KZbin? I've flown for 24+ yrs and this is VERY accurate looking!

[@lukeswann2859]

The official website is here www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/ NOTE: it is a very demanding simulator and requires a fairly powerful PC to enjoy. The stable consumer version is 1.5 and includes a free unarmed P-51 and less detailed Su-25. The 2.0-2.1 version uses maps with even better graphics but you have to purchase these. DCS is currently undergoing a lot of changes and the free map you see here is planned to be upgraded to look even better. If you are a real pilot, you should feel right at home in DCS as it is a simulator and is known to have the most realistic flight dynamics of any public military flight sim. A few of the purchasable full realism planes and jets include: an armed P-51, Spitfire, Bf-109, F-5 tiger, Mig-21, AJS-37 Viggen, and the most popular A-10C warthog! There are other less realistic simulated jets available as well. Probably most exciting are the planned aircraft coming out soon like the Harrier, F-18 Hornet, and the F-14 Tomcat.

[@Twister051]

Luke - Yes, I am a real pilot: 24+ yrs in the USAF, retired about 2 yrs ago, currently flying for a major U.S.-based airline. But, I am NOT currently a 'gamer' so please bear with me while I ask some extremely basic questions....for flight simulators that you can dogfight with, do you have to have the Virtual Reality goggles? Whether you do or not, would you recommend the VR goggles? How expensive is it to buy a good quality stick, throttle and rudder pedals? What are some companies you recommend for this kind of hardware? What are the minimum PC requirements to fly 'glitch free'? I really miss flying upside down, acro, formation, etc and think this could be a blast.

[@bruceruttan60]

At 2:54 didn't the 51 miss a good shot?

[@toweleeielite]

let me tell ya what would have happened if i was in that 109 old boy.......... about 2 mins before you got gun sites on me, my frikkin engine would have gone BANG! then dadadadaaddaaaaar and im dead :) again!! ha

[@lukeswann2859]

MickeeieMouse lol happens in the mustang too... engine management can be hard to get used to.

[@jcsandygobotobkkbo2192]

P-51 Mustang is a Flying horses

[@halbarbour7340]

Trying to out-turn a Mustang, faster and a tighter turning radius spells going down in flames. BF-109 were designed to combat inferior fighters like the ones they encountered in the first months of WW 2, and to shoot down heavy bombers, Mustangs were designed to dogfight, The Nazis got a wake up call when they went against Hurricanes and Spitfires at the Battle of Britain. By the time the Mustangs in the 'D' model came into service, these German fighters, and even the FW-190's were against superior fighter planes.

[@ziljanvega3879]

Someone should tell that to DCS. Here, the 109s are modeled as having all of the armor of the late war with none of the weight that turned them into tubs, yet are nearly impossible to stall. And to top it off, they fire howitzer rounds.

[@Pandacat80]

Was this against a human pilot or AI? Seems the 109 is pretty sluggish in maneuvering.

[@lukeswann2859]

Pandacat80 AI, the fight started above 20,000ft. When I start there and keep my rate of decent low, the AI seems to have a hard time with that.

[@CyrilDelacour]

high yoyo ? The bf pilot don't know this basic of dogfight, you're lucky.

[@Samokopecky]

Does mustang turn better than 109? Because according to many pilots also ww2 german pilots say/said that mustang was very heavy on turning, that 109 would easily outturn it.

[@lukeswann2859]

Samuel Kopecký it depended on the versions of mustang and 109. Ive heard that in the right circumstances you can out turn a 109 in DCS even one that isn't AI but I haven't done it. And it isn't a normal occurrence.

[@Samokopecky]

But I wanted to know if you know how it is or was in real life not in game. My personal opinion of a mustang and its great reputation is simply because of what americans stood up againts in the end of war. Poorely trained pilots with minimum skills and experience. And then ofcourse it was easy to turn with them in P51 when they had no experience. Thats just my point of view on Americans who say P51 was superior to 109 late versions.

[@lukeswann2859]

Sorry I meant IRL it depends on the version of mustang or 109. Certain versions of the mustang were far superior to certain versions of the 109. The version of 109 we have in DCS was much less common and had pretty big advantages over the more common D model mustang. When it came to pilot experience the Germans had an advantage, America however had a huge advantage of numbers especially in the late war. This is why German aces had so many kills. If you've ever watched the show dogfights, (while the computer animation does not accurately represent what happened) they have real pilots with real accounts. In the episodes I remember, mustangs were assumed to have a slight advantage in turn rate. Until of course one pilot ran across an upgraded 109. That's what I've learned on the matter, hope that helps...

[@rekke41]

It should turn better than most models at altitude and it should turn and roll better than all models above 300 mph, if it's modeled correctly.

[@jimellenw]

Whoa! Above about 20000 ft and 250knts TAS the P51 had it all over the 190 and 109. Laminar flow wing. Did not bleed energy like the 109 and 190. Was much faster especially in a zoom climb. Had to watch for over running the germans. Otherwise the performance of the P51 was superior.

[@barno01]

I reckon he did just about everything wrong, why try and turn fight someone who's out turning you? Then just before you had guns on, he climbs? Giving you an almost perfect target. I'd say he's a rookie who's just learnt a valuable lesson or two. But now I read bellow, he/it is AI. Will this binary code ever learn? Demonstrably it will, it's a lot better than it used to be! Not here though. Nice steady and calm flying Luke. Oh, and thanks for teaching me how to fly the P-51 in your tutorials. Much appreciated ;-)

[@Leon-zs4pd]

Is that Ai or player?

[@lukeswann2859]

Leon AI, I've learned I should probably get to where I can beat the more predictable AI first. (Although it's still hard)

[@noahdiruscio2657]

C.O.D....D.I.O.!

[@HaganDave]

I do not recommend flying WW2 planes in DCS. Uncontrolled spins, fluttering, losing a wing without being hit... That's what happens when you try to get on enemy's six. Rather your joystick than your enemy is in danger - you can brake it. If you want to fly a Mustang and destroy Bf-109s and Fw-190s, play Wings of Prey.

[@CyrilDelacour]

Il-2 is a great simulator too.

[@Gman-109]

Not really much of a "dogfight", doing flat level turns, and not at the best corner speed at that, vs a 109G of any model or a K4 = you're going to die in a P51 in pretty short order versus a pilot that's any good at all. Fortunately for you the 109 pilot was only interested or capable of flat turn fighting as well.

[@lukeswann2859]

True, but you have to keep it level when at a modest altitude because the mustang can't follow it into vertical. Waiting for him to be below you with less energy is a good idea. What the video doesn't show is the longer fight at higher altitude. But ya unless you start the fight higher up then a P-51 pilot is fighting an uphill battle

[@piobairesicago]

True. Use energy tactics. Never turn fight in a 51. Start higher, dive in, zoom up, get away, and set up your next attack. You use team tactics. Never duel a 109 one on one if you can. The 109 late G and K models climb faster and turn better, so if you do flat turns with them the good German pilots will simply outclimb you then stomp on you like a rat in a trap when you're low on energy.

[@Nine-TailedFox4]

You ever try fighting one of those things with a human pilot? The mustang is an absolute pig by comparison. Its really sad. The guns don't have the necessary punch and the 109 does almost everything better. At least in DCS, I would rather fight an F-15C in an F-5E than a 109K4 in P-51.

[@lukeswann2859]

IAB98Raptor I have and I have yet to win a 1v1 against a 109. But it's not impossible, lookup some videos, there are some skilled pilots who can do it. Using good tactics and keeping your speed high is key from what I've read. The new Normandy map should help with this, as we will have realistic bomber escort scenarios at higher altitudes which might be slightly better for the Mustang.

[@Nine-TailedFox4]

Luke Swann Yeah I hope Normandy helps. People don't even bother with the Stang anymore on multiplayer

[@lukeswann2859]

The Brain in the WWII era planes I can see that with how new a version of the 109 we got. But in modern aircraft it is just the opposite.

[@Nine-TailedFox4]

The Brain I would have to disagree. The game is very realistic but in WW2 we have the nastiest german planes to deal with. Mustang pilots rarely faced 190D or 109K4. Fly modern and F-15C absolutely dominates.

[@rekke41]

Never played DCS... yet. But the real strong point of American planes was as weapons of war. Even the most realistic combat simulators are going to be a far cry from actual combat and the actual ACMs used. and wont adequately reflect the range advantage by American fighters. P51D didn't have to be better to dominate it just needed to be comparable for when Luftwaffe squadrons could meet it in rough parity. Range meant that Luftwaffe squadrons had to be spread out and dispersed whereas American fighters could be concentrated against individual sectors, which guarantees a heavy numerical advantage as well as a luck advantage. Since the 51s are attacking the Germans over their own airfields the 51s are bound to catch them on the ground taking off or landing fairly frequently, and they did. If its modeled accurately try and keep airspeed up around 300, so grab lots of altitude first, at that speed it rolls faster and turns better than just about anything in the skies save for the 47s. So yeah the 51 wasn't the greatest dogfighter but it was the greatest weapon of war of the WW2 fighters. Oh also the guns seem to be nerfed in this flight sim... a square shot with 6 .50s belching 12.7 mm API would shred a lightly constructed fighter like a 109.

[@Cash_McCoy]

Sooo... the Mustang is a pig compared to the 109...? Funny, I don't remember hearing about that in any WWII history. JS...

[@piobairesicago]

It wasn't a pig, in fact, it was very effective in the high altitude, long range escort role. But - I want to emphasize this - it was optimized for high altitude combat against interceptors, combat which utilized team tactics, energy fighting, high speed passes, and very often, high angle deflection shooting. It was excellent in this type of combat. At middle and low altitude turn fighting, the 109 was better, and it could easily outclimb a 51 and gain an energy advantage. If you want to stay alive flying 51s: -fly in pairs and fours -study team tactics -work on your deflection shooting -keep your altitude, speed, and energy high at all times -Never, ever, ever, EVER turn with a 109 below 20kft -Never follow a 109 below 20k feet.

[@HaganDave]

Comparing aircrafts to pigs? Interesting... Must be some pilots dialect.

[@fredsalfa]

Who said it was a pig ?