DDR

[@chrispydesign585]

Advanced Question: Progenitus' ability and Leyline of the Void's ability are both replacement effects teying to affect the same thing (Progenitus entering your graveyard). As the owner of the card being affected by one or more replacement effects, you get to choose the order the replacements apply. Therefore you would ensure Peogenitus' replacement effect goes off first, shuffling it into your library. Then Leyline of the Void will try to exile it but fail to do so

[@jyrinx]

That's my understanding, too

[@deltaholmes]

you can choose to have Progenitus milled into exile to the Leyline of the Void and return it with Nashi’s trigger.

[@jyrinx]

@@deltaholmes I take it in that case Progenitus's own replacement effect doesn't apply because it loses track of the card when it changes zones?

[@poiri]

@@jyrinxif Progenitus’ owner chose to have it go into exile then the event of Progenitus entering the graveyard is fully replaced so Progenitus’ replacement effect has nothing to replace. So yes, it would stay in exile

[@jyrinx]

@@poiri Ah! Right, okay, so actually I was thinking about replacement effects a bit wrong. Technically (CR 616) you don't pick an order for them to apply in, you pick _one_ that should apply now, and then the modified event tries to happen, and basically the game recomputes from scratch what effects are now applicable (keeping in mind that the one you chose has been “used up” and can't apply again). That's a slightly nicer mental model, I think, partly because it reminds you that effects can stop being applicable, but also because your second pick _can_ be an effect that's only applicable after the first effect (so you're not just ordering the replacement effects that are trying to happen, you're ordering _all replacement effects that exist at all in the game_ )

[@adamman1139]

Thank you for always helping me level up my knowlege :) much appreciated

[@Flyboy245]

I actually had a similar interaction to this a little while ago. We were able to get there eventually, but it’s reassuring to see that our thought process was correct, and that we got it right

[@jerodast]

Okay, for some reason I could've sworn you JUST recently did a video covering "cards that were milled" effects still working even after being replaced with a different destination zone. Maybe I'm thinking of something I saw in your archive... Also kudos on a challenge question card with a fun Xantcha quote :)

[@lucasriddle3431]

I agree, this definitely feels familiar, although I'm also not sure exactly where.

[@Patashu]

Got this one wrong because I didn't know it had a new rule covering it. Good to know!

[@trevorstammler]

I actually had to explain this playing commander last week! Nashi is a deck I’ve been enjoying playing, had one guy play RIP and had to explain I still get cards, but then another played Wheel of Sun & Moon on me since I’d mentioned if it went to a zone that wasn’t public information I wouldn’t get the cards so I ended up losing because I explained how Nashi works 😂

[@evandunning1991]

I'm guessing it's the same thing if I control Palantir of Orthanc and am enchanted with Wheel of Sun and Moon. No damage if they choose for me to mill?

[@TheGrifcannon22]

Glad to say I already knew this one due to Queen Kayla bin Kroog.

[@virgilroyervideos]

Dave - are you attending MagicCon Vegas...?? I really enjoyed your Amsterdam streams =)

[@Mathewu_]

I had a grenzo dungeon warden deck, and it worked the same way.

[@SomeGuy712x]

I have a question: Let's say I control both Wax-Wane Witness and Black Market Connections. Wax-Wane Witness says, "Whenever you gain or lose life during your turn, Wax-Wane Witness gets +1/+0 until end of turn.", and Black Market Connections has three different things I can choose any number of at the start of my first main phase, with each option lowering my life total. If I choose at least two options with Black Market Connections, will that cause Wax-Wane Witness to get multiple +1/+0 triggers, or only one? (This situation could potentially come up in a Zoraline deck I'm making, so I'd like to know for sure how this interaction works.)

[@seandun7083]

For modal things where you choose multiple modes, they happen one at a time, from top to bottom. This means that each life loss from Black Market Connections will be separate.

[@SomeGuy712x]

@@seandun7083 Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I just wanted to be absolutely sure, of course.

[@TheQueerLeaf]

Nice

[@hansvader3791]

I dont know if any cards were not errata'd. But if an effect uses the old wording (cards are put from your library into your graveyard), would Nashi still be able to get them? Since that effect specifically mentions a zone

[@kitsovereign4127]

Nashi only cares about the cards milled from his own ability, so other effects binning cards with different wordings doesn't matter. For cards like Bruvac the Grandiloquent, it depends on whether the current Oracle text says "mill" or not. There are a few effects like Consuming Aberration that were not changed to use "mill", because they're doing something more complicated or conditional, and so Bruvac won't interact with those.

[@seandun7083]

Cache Grab works through a Leyline of the Void, but Overlord of the Balemurk does not.

[@jerodast]

My sense is pretty much any card that did mill, now officially say mill except: Technically things like Consuming Aberration, which REVEALED cards and THEN put them in graveyard, still matched the old slang usage of mill - putting cards from the top of library into graveyard (they were revealed but still in library). But for whatever reason, they only use mill now when it's a known number of cards, not a conditional one. So Aberration-style effects that sort of "mill until you get [thing]" don't ACTUALLY mill, they either reveal or exile cards instead, then put them all in the graveyard at once without using the mill keyword.

[@jerodast]

After a little searching, I think Helm of Obedience is the only exception to this pattern - it DID get changed to mill and mill again until certain conditions are met. Funny enough, its own condition about when to stop milling was NOT amended to say "when you have milled X" cards, it still says "when X cards have been put into the graveyard this way", which means you will mill your opponent's deck regardless of X if you have Leyline out!

[@seandun7083]

@@jerodast Interesting. I didn't realize it used Mill now. I would guess that's because of the specific wording which allowed that combo to work in the first place. Because it puts the cards in the graveyard one by one rather than revealing until it hits a creature, they can say it mills cards one by one. Of course that's a wording they have avoided ever since due to how it interacts with effects like Leyline. Thought Dissector is an example of a card with less abusable wording. I assume they also kept the old condition because they didn't want to break the combo aspect.

[@williamdrum9899]

Did it work this way before mill was keyworded?

[@supermarth64]

Yes: Gyruda functioned the same way. There was some commotion initially because people felt like it shouldn't have worked that way but it was ruled that you can still Gyruda something with a Leyline on the field.

[@jerodast]

@@supermarth64 Nice example. Specifically Gyruda says "from among those cards", not "from among cards put in the graveyard this way", so you can see why they might've ruled this way but also why it could be ambiguous. I assume this debate was one reason they decided to keyword "mill" and have these sorts of references say "milled cards" so they could make an explicit rule about it.

[@TheKillingMine]

About the Leyline and Progenitus thing. Both are replacement effects that affect the same action, so I'd guess that timestamps apply, in the case Progenitus is on the battlefield and is killed. If Progenitus is on the deck and is milled, I don't know the ruling. Since it has not entered the field at all, it doesn't have a timestamp, so Leyline would win? No idea

[@jerodast]

Timestamps don't affect replacements - replacement effect interactions are a lot simpler than continuous ones, they don't need layers/dependency/timestamps. You just get to choose which to apply first :) then recheck for any replacements that could still apply.

[@gatherer818]

The player being affected, or the controller of the permanent being affected, chooses the order replacement effects apply in. No timestamps necessary.