DDR

[@JudgingFtW]

Q: Doesn't the tuck rule make it so Amy could get her commander in the command zone either way in the last example? A: Yes, it does. But I forgot to mention that one of the other players used a Mindslaver against Amy, making this question relevant. An interesting point of discussion is whether they did it in the main game or the subgame.

[@LawrenceMilesHasMovedToBluesky]

Back in the mid-'90s, I traded for four Shahrazads (they didn't cost $300 then) just so I could build a deck that triggered endless nested subgames, ditched cards into opponents' graveyards, then used Tormod's Crypt to get rid of them before returning to a main game where nobody except me had any cards left in their libraries. Clearly this doesn't work under modern rules, because it's now established that cards exiled in subgames are shuffled back into libraries when you return to the main game. But the "exile zone" didn't formally exist in 1994, and there were different assumptions about the meaning of "removed from the game". So Hyper-Shahrazad worked really well... for the first few days, until everyone I knew decided they weren't going to waste their lives playing against a deck that let me spend two hours trolling them with sub-games. Ahhh, youth.

[@CharlotteMimic]

Brilliant 😆

[@allopeth]

There’s a special place in hell for your kind, sir

[@psymar]

You'd love Richard Garfield's favorite deck idea, from back before 4 of a card was a limit: 40 Shahrazad and 60 Plains. The idea is that if you get enough layers deep you'll win by decking them when they draw their opening hand. Of course, nobody ever actually finished a game with this deck

[@Alek2ander]

Wouldn't a player be able to replace shuffling the commander into the deck after a subgame with putting it into the command zone? As far as the main game is concerned, it's just a zone change, so it should be covered by the commander rule.

[@simbelanger1]

Yeah +1, I'm also wondering this. We do have Shahrazad allowed at our table and it's never been abused (because yes we are that dumb, and also mainly because someone has a copy), and I really need to know 😅

[@PKFat]

@6:37 "Attempting this does indeed make you a bad person" Let me tell y'all about my 250 card, Battle of Wits deck titled "Shahrazad's Wish" that's main wincon is by using 4 copies each Death Wish, Burning Wish, Wish, & Fae of Wishes along w/ 4 copies of Sahrazad with the goal to win by forcing opponents to scoop once we're 8 sub games deep.

[@dyne313]

I'm like that one jerk on Arena/MTGO who makes you play the whole thing out.

[@ketto2875]

Wishing during a subgame is also the only CR-legal way to un-mutate a creature! :)

[@bananaflame]

This is an interesting point, but "CR-legal" might be a stretch. 727.3 only describes what happens when merged *permanents* change zones, and in this scenario we're removing a *card* from the merged object. I think this is an edge case of the subgame-wish card-abduction procedure with basically undefined behavior. Curious for Dave's take if he sees this!

[@graysond3753]

Companion brings up a rules question - as you start a subgame, can you look at your subgame library? For example, let's say my main game library had 59 cards that fulfilled Lurrus's companion criteria and 1 card that didn't. Lurrus obviously can't be a companion for the MAIN game, but let's say in that main game I've exiled a few cards face down with Bomat Courier and then cast Shahrazad. Can I look at my library to see whether I meet Lurrus's companion criteria for the subgame?

[@fhortedakwhil]

At least that I can see, you can’t prove it (your library is a hidden zone). While you can select a companion for the subgame and hope it follows the new deck, if it’s shown to not be you would get the punishment for having an illegal deck in whatever your format is

[@graysond3753]

@@fhortedakwhil Your library is a hidden zone, but companions care about your "starting deck," not your library. Subgames specifically turn one library into another. "Each player takes all the cards in their main-game library, moves them to their subgame library, and shuffles them." "Deck" and "starting deck" are different terms in the comp rules, and as far as I can tell, you only have a "starting deck" if you've had an opportunity to sideboard. "103.2a If any players are using sideboards (see rule 100.4) or cards being represented by substitute cards (see rule 713), those cards are set aside. After this happens, each player’s deck is considered their starting deck." Since a subgame does not allow you to sideboard, then you never *have* a "starting deck" as far as the subgame is concerned. So what I've concluded is that companions don't work in subgames at all, even if you know your library fulfills the requirement. You need to declare that your starting deck (not your "deck" or your library) fulfills the companion requirement. I'm not a judge and this is a very niche rules question, so maybe I'm wrong. It also feels unsatisfactory--if I'm playing with Shahrazad and companions, I want them to work together! After some googling, I see people have had similar questions re: Karn Liberated's game restart ability and companions. But I can't find a 100% conclusive answer, just guesswork. (Which is pretty funny with Karn because he was a popular Modern card when companions were released -- it's possible this scenario came up in sanctioned competitive play!)

[@Tzizenorec]

@@graysond3753 I would interpret the conclusion of your chain of logic as "Your starting deck in the main game is also your starting deck in the subgame", not "you don't have a starting deck in the subgame".

[@jerodast]

@@graysond3753 And I would point out this seems to contradict what Judge Dave said about companions in subgames. But this whole thing is arcane so I'm fine with everyone just having their own interpretation of all this 😂

[@lucasriddle3431]

What is the other reason for a spell to need to be able to resolve if it leaves the stack mid-resolution, mentioned at 6:59? I can think of many spells that remove themselves from the stack as part of their instructions - anything that says "Exile [this spell]" (or occasionally moving it to other zones, such as the Sun's Zenith cycle shuffling themselves into your library) - but that instruction is usually the last in the spell's resolution, which makes the point kind of moot. Wait, is it Splicing? There are a few post-Kamigawa-block Splice cards (two from Modern Horizons 1, one from Tales of Middle-Earth Commander) that 'splice onto instant or sorcery' rather than only onto Arcane cards, and (as I just mentioned there are numerous instants and sorceries that exile themselves upon resolution. So, for example, if you Splice an Everdream onto a Flood of Recollection, then Flood of Recollection will exile itself before the text added by Everdream makes you draw a card, but you will draw a card nonetheless. Which, I wouldn't exactly consider 'mundane', but that's definitely an application of that rule, as far as I can tell. Is that what you were referring to?

[@Tekarusame]

A player can concede the game while a spell is resolving, if the spell started resolving it'll finish. Specially can happen if someone cast a spell stolen with something like gonti and the owner of the spell has to leave in a hurry.

[@Minizemful]

Time Spiral exiles itself before the rest of the cards abilities happen. There may be a few others that do this, but I'm not sure. As far as splicing, or text-changing effects in general, I wasn't able to find anything stating where exactly added text would go, so it's possible this would be another way the rule might be relevant, but considering he called it a "mundane" reason, he is probably referring to Time Spiral.

[@TobyBW]

According to 702.47b, the effects of the main spell happen first, followed by any spliced effects in an order chosen when the spliced cards are revealed.

[@TheMessinger47]

Spells that exile themselves as part of their effect will continue to resolve once they leave the stack that way. Older cards like Time Spiral and Ill-Gotten Gains exiled themselves before their other effects happened, and spells that end the turn exile themselves before their other end turn effect finishes

[@jerodast]

Splicing is what I thought too; concede in multiplayer is another good point. To be honest I thought one other example had come up somewhere in videos in the last year, but it probably wouldn't be that mundane either, and I sure can't recall what it was :)

[@Flyboy245]

Really glad to see this video come out. In the plethora of Magic subgames I’ve played, a lot of these questions have come up quite frequently

[@ericbarr734]

Something that has come up in a commander game I've been in is how subgames with with Conspiracy cards with Hidden Agenda. For example, say I have a Double Stroke with Lightning Bolt named in the main game. If I've already cast Lightning Bolt and revealed the agenda does it get moved over to the sub game? Can i pick a new card name for the sub game? What if I haven't revealed what I'd named yet? Does it get moved to the subgame despite it being face down? I can't remember what my group's rulings were on it. The actual cards were The Countdown Is One, Ragavan as my commander, and Immediate Action as the conspiracy (naming Ragavan). I wanted to play The Countdown and have a hasty 1-drop Commander. But we weren't sure how any of the rules worked.

[@allopeth]

Merry xmas Dave! I will now build a commander deck built around shaharazad, karn and living wish and all these interesting synergies. I’m sure everyone in my LGS will love it!!

[@jinxed7915]

An episode on subgames? It truly is Christmas!

[@haslittle8078]

"I cast Storm King's Thunder. X=10." "Cool, what spell are you about to copy?" **EVIL LAUGHTER**

[@vermora356]

What is the other example of a spell leaving the stack before it finishes resolving? A card that said 'End the turn' and then had other instructions after that would do it, I believe, but I don't think any such card exists. Is there a way to add instructions to the end of a sorcery? The gift mechanic adds instructions, but to the beginning. Or is it a spell that allows you cast another spell during its resolution? And the spell you cast targets the original spell and removes it from the stack somehow.

[@smithsmithenson9536]

Splicing Everdream onto Time Stop would accomplish it, I believe

[@Minizemful]

Time Spiral exiles itself before the rest of it's effects.

[@Amazementss]

*insert meme of Kermit wishing Shahrazad off the stack in the main game* Covering Shahrazad is a great Holiday gift to your audience, though. 😄 Cheers!

[@Oaks64]

This ridiculous video was a fun treat. Thank you!

[@ribbontoast]

I never realized how much I needed to know how Shahrazad and attractions worked together.

[@vidyaslime1136]

If cards are able to move between games while in the command zone, what about emblems? Do you get to start the subgame with any emblems you gained in the main game?

[@fhortedakwhil]

For command zones, only a few specific things move between them. 726.2a-c, supplementary decks, vanguards, commanders. Since the emblem isn’t one of those, it stays in its originating game 726.2 itself covering the library moving between games

[@jerodast]

The overall concept is to get the cards you need to play the subgame, into the subgame, and to define which cards those actually are. It's not really about "which objects get to move", it's all just cards.

[@Ranarp_Gryphons]

Hypothetical: I have built a very silly deck, which is singleton except for having two copies of Healing Salve. I control of a Knowledge Vault, which has exiled four cards face down. Having never seen either of the copies of Healing Salve thus far in the game, I cast Shaharazad. I do not know if zero, one, or two copies of Healing Salve have been exiled by Knowledge Vault. What happens if I grab a Lutri, the Spellchaser from the junk drawer in the kitchen and attempt to reveal and declare her as my Companion? In the Comprehensive Rules, 103.2b and 702.139a only speak to being able to do so if my deck meets the requirement; it does not assert that I am aware of if the deck meets the requirement or not.

[@jerodast]

I'm sure you can house rule whatever, but I would certainly rule you can't declare something with a requirement without KNOWING it meets the requirement.

[@Ranarp_Gryphons]

@@jerodast I see it a lot like trying to cast a spell, knowing that in order to be able to cast it you need mana from an RNG based mana ability; just more contrived and extreme.

[@ave_maria323]

Dumbest idea i had for sharizad was ishocron scepter... would never do it irl though

[@FrostbiteKelvin]

Good thing is a sorcery :P

[@TheGRZone]

You (insert your preferred formal pronoun) want to see the world burn. I want to be there to experience the infinite subgame

[@ave_maria323]

@FrostbiteKelvin yeah that killed the idea ^^. I came up with a different idea later...

[@Ranarp_Gryphons]

Back in college, I had a deck that raced to shove Research/Development into Isochron Sceptre, and then cast a bunch of Research to pull in whatever cards were helpful. It was a silly deck; the bootstrap being Myr + Slate of Ancestry to draw that pulled in stuff. In one game against my friend who also had a Research/Development deck that tried to cast Research a bunch, I grabbed a playset of Shahrazad. Thus began a delightful game of Researching down our main deck's battlefield and hand contents into the sub-games, as my friend tried to defeat me before I could fire off another Shahrazad. We got like twenty subgames deep before we each agreed to a draw. Sadly, there are no two mana instant speed wishes to replace Research/Development with, what with the recent change on how to tabulate CMC. My deck no longer functions.

[@koch_salz]

I love how the magic rules team has to come up with ways to handle new obscure mechanics like attractions in subgames and put them in the CR just because of this single infamous card

[@JudgingFtW]

Let's be fair, attractions debuted in the same set as Tug of War, so this was probably an important interaction to know in Unfinity sealed...

[@RodRombauer]

Do sub-games count as 'games' for the 'Double' cycle of cards from Unglued, like Double Play?

[@TheRealWormbo]

I think as far as Warped Devotion is concerned, and based on how subgames are started and ended, it would be fair to assume that from the main game's perspective, anything inside the subgame exists in the main game's libraries, just in various states of being looked at or revealed. It's just a complex way to shuffle all libraries and maybe add or remove some cards.

[@jerodast]

Yeah that ruling seems like a pretty clear one to me, the subgame is a little black box in the main game with the only "transparent" parts being defined by effect which created the subgame. It can't see it's going to the hand, it just sees it's leaving play and, in the same moment of main-game time, ending up in library. Based on commander discussion, it seems reasonable to interpret this as "card went from play to library" in main game, although I could see an argument for "card disappeared from play completely" and "card entered library from outside the game" happening simultaneously in main game as well.

[@KingZarathus]

Almost a real stories collection from Commander at Home. 😂

[@almogdov]

Ah yes, subgames. Because 2 hours for one commander game isn't enough

[@Patashu]

'so attempting this does indeed make you a bad person' made me howl

[@williamdrum9899]

I'm honestly surprised this is even in the rulebook

[@Melissanoma]

Do counters on a card in the command zone transfer? e.g. Skullbriar with counters on it from the main game. Does it start the subgame with counters? And do counters added in the subgame carry back to the main game? Assuming it's in the command zone at the appropriate times.

[@thekilla1234]

Skullbriar's oracle text says "Counters remain on Skullbriar as it moves to any zone other than a player's hand or library.", rule 726.2c says "As a subgame of a Commander game starts, each player moves their commander from the main-game command zone (if it’s there) to the subgame command zone. " and rule 726.5c says the same thing but for when the subgame ends. These rules specifically state that you move the commander directly from one command zone to the other, which means Skullbriar will see itself move to any zone other than a player's hand or library, therefore I would say it keeps the counters moving both ways.

[@raznaak]

@@thekilla1234 Thanks, I had the same idea.

[@jerodast]

@@thekilla1234 I disagree, because nothing in the main game can see any details of anything in the subgame, including zones, or vice versa. As far as the subgame is concerned, the starting deck of the subgame is simply the starting deck of a magic game, it didn't come from a second library zone; command zone cards just started there; etc. Similarly, the main game doesn't see a card moving out of the command zone to somewhere else, it sees the card momentarily disappear from the command zone to nowhere, and then re-enter the command zone. Still an interesting question if it keeps counters in this case :)

[@thekilla1234]

@@jerodast What rule states that cards "momentarily disappear from the command zone to nowhere"? The rule I showed states that "each player moves their commander from the main-game command zone to the subgame command zone". This is very clear that it goes straight from one zone to another. If you can show me a rule that when a subgame starts all cards in the main game are temporarily considered outside of both games I will agree with you, but if you can't point to a rule then anything you said is just pure speculation. When discussing anything to do with rules you must reference a rule to back up your claim or your claim is kinda meaningless. The closest rule that might suggest this is rule 726.1b that says "No effects or definitions created in either the main game or the subgame have any meaning in the other", but this doesn't apply to Skullbriar since part of creating the subgame is moving the commander from the main game command zone to the subgame command zone as stated by rule 726.2c that I mentioned in the other comment. Rule 726.1b is referring to static abilities that are still in effect in the main game after the subgame has been created, such as a creature on the battlefield with a static ability. So then the question is whether or not the counters survive the move from the main game command zone to the subgame command zone. Rule 122.2 says "Counters on an object are not retained if that object moves from one zone to another. The counters are not “removed”; they simply cease to exist." which says counters are removed when moving from a zone to any other zone, but Skullbriar's oracle text disregards this rule, so Skullbriar's counters can survive a move from any zone to any other zone other than a player's hand or library. At 10:24 there is discussion about Warped Devotion and Living Wish. This situation sounds similar to the Skullbriar situation, but it is different. Once the subgame has been created, the main game is considered outside of the subgame, so Living Wish brings the card from outside of the game so the Warped Devotion in the subgame won't trigger. The difference with Skullbriar is that there is a specific rule (726.2c) that describes how a commander moves from the main game to the subgame as part of creating the subgame, and that rule explicitly states that it goes from the main game command zone to the subgame command zone. In order for this rule to make sense Skullbriar must be aware about both zones at the same time while this move is happening or the wording in this rule doesn't make sense. All of these rules together strongly suggest that Skullbriar moves from the main game command zone to the subgame command zone and the counters survive that move. I haven't found any rule that suggests Skullbriar is ever in a state where the counters will be lost.

[@Eron2828]

An old of mine friend played a Shahrazad +Fork+Mirari deck. This is not a joke.

[@rileyloux1491]

Q: Do emblems also not carry over like all of the other stuff? Q: Does the opening hand of the subgame allow you to have Leylines put into play?

[@thejackscraft3472]

Q1: no, emblems are on you in the main game, but in the same way that poison counters are, they're both in the command zone, so since you don't bring the command zone along with you neither follows you into the subgame. Q2: yep, you're starting a game, it's your opening hand, so Leylines should work as normal.

[@connorgibes709]

If I cast Shaharazad and gove it rebound somehow, then wish fot it in the subgame, will it still rebound in the main game?

[@raznaak]

There is potentially only one card that could carriy between main game and subgames: Skullbriar, the Walking Grave. If Skullbriar is your Commander, and he both starts and ends the subgame in your command zone, I believe he should keep counters between games, right?

[@robertmendez8383]

I was playing no ban list commander I was on WUBRG Atog Atog Shaharazad and one of my opponents was on Leavold and ended up winning the sub game very quickly with Thoracle combo after I resolved my Sharazad so it was a little upsetting until I realized his entire deck was exiled in the sub game so in winning the sub game he lost the main game on his next draw step to an empty library from exiling it to demonic consultation.

[@gabrote42]

Rulings say exiled cards go back into the main game library though

[@robertmendez8383]

@gabrote42 oh well nobody caught that in the game thanks for letting me know because that is so helpful to know when my Sharazad gets exiled in a sub game. The deck actually runs zero card draw and I try and muligan a lot to keep a high number of cards in library so I deck last to Sharazad loops.

[@artemiskearney8019]

If you can wish for cards from the main game, can you also choose them as your companion?

[@Buych778]

Shahrazad + all the wishes in edh, but all decks run the package and play games until the end, no conceding...who's looking to play one continuous MTG game for the next 4 years? We'll just keep wishing for the pain to end...

[@jesszendrex2151]

for the last scenario, would the tuck rule not apply to the main game, returning her commander to the command zone if she chooses?

[@genzo454]

I love this card. ❤

[@Nitr0don]

If a commander was on the battlefield in the subgame and is now being shuffled into its owner's library, shouldn't rule 903.9b allow you to move it to the command zone instead?

[@theodosiuspadua4503]

2 seconds in, already earned a like

[@Vex-MTG]

The only thing that wasn't really covered (and I don't think it's super complicated, but also... subgames) is what happens if somebody Forks your Shahrazad.

[@jerodast]

Yep, it's not super complicated. In the main game, Shahrazad A and B (Forked) are now on the stack. The top one (B) resolves, during which you play a subgame. As it finishes resolving (back in the main game), someone loses half their life, and Shahrazad A is still on the stack, and now play continues normally in the main game. Assuming nobody uses this opportunity to counter Shahrazad A, it now resolves, during which you play another subgame and then back in the main game someone loses life again (taking into account any previous loss from Shahrazad B).

[@jerodast]

It's the same as if someone who had flash for all their sorceries played two Shahrazads back to back without letting one resolve first.

[@psymar]

For the wish/warped devotion scenario you describe, I think it's more simple to just say that cards outside the game are not on the subgame's battlefield and thus not permanents from the viewpoint of the subgame.

[@diegoblin9090]

At the min 4:30 i was already in a subgame in my mind 🫠

[@angst_]

In multiplayer formats I think you should only scoop at sorcery speed. It's just polite!

[@SpitefulAZ]

I paid a lot more than $300 for my copy of shahrazad 😂😢