DDR5 motherboards should come with only 2 dimm slots as standard

[@WayStedYou]

A DIMM outlook.

[@Wasmachineman]

go away Carlos

[@marcogenovesi8570]

badum tss

[@sebastianlaakso2729]

🗣️ 💀💯

[@brovid-19]

Youre just being DRAMatic

[@MrSolvalou]

It _is_ funny how 1DPC boards exist only as the bottom of the barrel boards or high-end overclocking focused boards where taking away a feature _is_ a feature. We as consumers definitely need more choice in the midrange.

[@erikhendrickson59]

Got myself the B550 Unify-X from MSI on sale for $189 (was recommended by this channel). Absolute BEAST of a board. Running the SAME DIMMs 400MHz higher, identical timings, @ 1.400VDIMM vs 1.4500VDIMM on my previous board!

[@MrKentaroMotoPI]

20:40 "The problem with unpopulated DIMM slots is that they exist..." In other branches of electronics, plug-in resistive shunts are used to minimize radio interference from unused input sockets. Shielded resistor "dummy DIMMs" in the two unused slots might help here too.

[@funkintonbeardo]

I have a dummy DIMM from 90s. It's so funny to see a stick without any memory ICs on it. I cut it in half and made it two keychains lol

[@MoraFermi]

@@funkintonbeardo You might have an RDRAM dummy stick. Since Rambus was a serial round-robin protocol, all sockets had to be populated or nothing would work.

[@funkintonbeardo]

@@MoraFermi Checked it, and yep, that's exactly it. Thanks for pointing me to another bit of computer history.

[@MrKentaroMotoPI]

@@funkintonbeardo That dummy could be worth some money 🤑

[@samfedorka5629]

you would need to know the impedance of the transmission line to have a matched load to minimize reflections, but keep in mind a daisy chain topology will still have the stubs regardless if there is a ram stick there or not. The tabbed stuff that MSI has, already minimizes far end crosstalk. I think removing a SMD RAM slot would possibly have some benefit. You could alternatively cut the trace if it's accessible.

[@mndlessdrwer]

I get the distinct impression that DDR5 is going to require some pretty significant voltage regulation. Not because it needs loads of voltage, but because it needs it to be ultra-clean.

[@galacticbeat6328]

This is why the pmic is on the ram.

[@ShakeITyEA]

the vrm is on the module, so you better make sure to buy a module with proper vrm.

[@willjohnsonjohnson]

@@ShakeITyEA Can't wait for DDR5 e-power buildzoid edition.

[@catalystguitarguy]

@@willjohnsonjohnson RAM zombie mods 2022. lol

[@ActuallyHardcoreOverclocking]

@@willjohnsonjohnson I already took some measurements of the PMIC it does a perfectly good job from what I can see. Having 1 VRM per stick and not having to deliver the power through pins seems to help a lot.

[@TedHartDavis]

But my strong desire for exorbitant quantities of RAM!

[@nathangamble125]

We will get 64GB and 128GB DDR5 modules... eventually

[@TedHartDavis]

@@nathangamble125 but with only two slots...that's still maximally half an exorbitant quantity!

[@marcogenovesi8570]

registered is de whay

[@ht3k]

you're on the wrong channel then lol

[@ChristianStout]

You can stick 2TB of DDR3 in most quad-LGA 1567 mobos, and that whole setup will be cheaper than 2TB of DDR5 DIMMs alone.

[@PotatInside]

I think modern consumer platforms should come with quad channel support...

[@alb9229]

What for ?

[@Navhkrin]

DDR5 in some sense is quad channel as each DDR5 stick is two 32bit channels. It is comparable to quad channel on DDR4.

[@aaron552au]

@@Navhkrin IIRC the difference isn't really that comparable, given that each DDR4 DIMM is one 64-bit channel. There might be lower latency (in ideal scenarios) for DDR5 but it's the same number of bits per "clock" per DIMM.

[@PotatInside]

@@alb9229 Performance?

[@shanksisnoteventhatstrongbruh]

At least triple channel should have been the standard since 2014.

[@bbkr7910]

Will be curious to see how this plays out when Zen 4 launches.

[@funkintonbeardo]

I believe the difference will stem from MB manufacturers applying the lessons learned from Z690 to AM5 boards, rather than from AMD's end. CPU has little say in signal integrity of memory, it's all on MB and RAM.

[@cheyannei5983]

@@funkintonbeardo There's a lot you can do on CPU side, but it'd be out of spec with JEDEC and essentially a waste of R&D. It's far better to just push what improvements you can make to JEDEC, and it might get standardized. It seems normal mobo cost cutting is too noisy for this gen of DDR, so we'll likely see DDR6 sooner rather than later.

[@acastanza]

Buildzoid: 4 Sticks is pure PAIN Me, a computational scientist who is currently using 128GB of DDR4 (4x32): ... life is pain.

[@ignatgrz]

Unless intel raises (or doesn't actually enforce) the 128 GB RAM limit for desktop DDR5 you'll be able to switch to 2*64 and still have max capacity for the platform. Buildzoid mentioned 2DPC being slow, but it's still faster than nvme.

[@0ecka]

Still running 32GB DDR3 (32:4) 2DPC, painless out of the box XMP, 3770K, 24/7, since 2012 :). I'm not an OC maniac though. But, if I was ... then there would be pain and the machine would probably be long dead by now, because higher temps increase entropy :).

[@joshhardin666]

I currently have 128gb of ram on my workstation for homelabbing virtualization, video editing, 3d rendering, and lots of heavy multitasking. I was hoping to upgrade to 256gb when I'm ready for a new machine which will probably be at the launch of a ryzen 7950x or more preferably threadripper 7960x but and has been really annoying with release cycles. (we still don't have threadripper 5000 series when they should have come out at the same time as the 5950x)

[@Bayonet1809]

I'm in exactly the same situation. Dual Xeon E5-2697v3 w/128GB DDR4 looking to upgrade to Threadripper w/256GB DDR5. Hardware has gotten so annoying, what with release schedules messed up and inflated prices and no availability and DDR5 capacities not increasing at the same rate as DDR4 did.

[@Squall4Rinoa]

you won't have any problems so long as you stick to the compatible memory that the alder lake specification document sets out. 2 dimms per channel, 1 rank per dim = 4000mhz 2 dimms per channel, 2 ranks per dim = 3600mhz

[@youtubeaccount7544]

Lol your not using 128gb for anything 😂

[@joshhardin666]

@@youtubeaccount7544 I have anywhere between 3 and 4 virtual machines online at any given time, I currently have about 20k tabs open in Firefox, I do quite a bit of work with 4k footage in premiere pro, do streaming with obs studio, play games a couple time a day at least, all while having Outlook and teams gobble down resources in the background as well. 128gb isn't as much as it used to be. Even on my new work notebook with 16gb of ram, Outlook, Firefox, and teams can easily eat up 80% in no time.

[@FsimulatorX]

@@joshhardin666 any update on the situation? I'm also in a similar boat but just heard about this issue

[@LATRONNIK]

the tachyon looks so good and performs like that too, i was kinda trying to wait for the dark kingpin board to be avaliable in europe but when that thing is available its probably already summer, so i might just go with the tachyon this time

[@jay_me07]

couldn't a viable solution be to have 1 channel on each side of the CPU, similar to HEDT? obviously either not possible or not helpful on the current socket design but it's a thought.

[@willjohnsonjohnson]

It probably would not make a difference. The problem is the extra dimm slots act as antennas sticking off the motherboard. If there's any interference the extra slots will pick it up and mess up the signal.

[@BusAlexey]

Quad-channel Zen4 with 1 dimm-per-channel would be pog

[@larsb.6420]

No point in going Quad Channel with Zen 4.

[@metaleater9]

Why not go 3 dimm slots for that sweet triple channel action?

[@raynel8495]

Well if that's the case... I want to hear your opinion on 670E because all of those so far have 4 DIMM Slots. 🤔

[@shaneeslick]

G'day Buildzoid, This is one of the reasons I am happy with a mid range M-ATX Motherboard for just gaming & Internetting, All you need is a CPU, 2 RAM, GPU & M.2 or SSD with a reasonable amount of USB ports if you like Peripheral Controllers. When I switched to Ryzen I went with a MSI B450M-Gaming Plus, R5 1400, 16GB Corsair Vengeance PRO 3200-CL16, 240GB SSD & MSI RX580Gaming Plus, Playing EuroTruck Sim 2 with my Logitech Momo Wheel set has been Brilliant with my LG 27" 1080p 75hz Monitor 🥰🖥 I had people tell me R5 1400 will not boot with 3200RAM, but I set XMP & have never had a problem.

[@snowhawk4049]

Good idea. The prices for motherboards have already more than doubled, the "normies" will go insane if they would only get half the dimm slots.

[@BITCOIlN]

The normies could use more dimm slots than anything else since many of them probably don't even run on XMP.

[@milchkopf3881]

they should put three slots per channel on the high end boards

[@everope]

@@milchkopf3881 1dpc quad channel

[@velfad]

So DDR5 is actually downgrade. I run 32x4 DDR4 at 3600/cl16 with no issues. How many years do we have to wait for DDR5 to come out of beta?

[@stanpaponov]

Had no idea about that, bought 2 packs of 2 sticks to get 64 gigs Blue screens, app crashes, had no idea what is going on, reinstalled Windows 3 times Tested RAM sticks 1 by 1 and they were fine Finally found this video and now that makes sense I have 1000$ ASUS Z690 Formula and apparently it only supports 4400 for 4 sticks That is so weird

[@Physics072]

Pays not to assume these days, probably in the manual that many don't read. But 2 channel MBs are usually lacking features. So tough choice, wasted money on buying 4 slots and wiring that will only be used as a dual memory board.

[@BAJF93]

I wish we'd get some barebones motherboards with slight OC focus like the nForce ones from LGA775 days. Nowadays every body suddenly needs 5xM.2

[@Erelyes]

I know right! Feature creep is stupid. Five pcie slots? Dude, I need one for the GPU and that's it. 8 USB slots on the backplate? Dude, I need four. Five fan headers? Two will do. Manufacturers need to stop their RGB and power stage arms race, and make a base spec of board that 'just works' and then have a few different levels of bells and whistles.

[@CharcharoExplorer]

Are all 16gb DDR5 chips dual rank? Dual Channel Dual Rank is what I want to use.

[@qlum]

If it were only that they oc less, it would not be a big deal, however considering you can't even run stock with 4 dims, that definitely seems like 4 dims should not be used for most consumers. However, once the DDR5 ecosystem / memory controllers mature a bit, maybe this will once again change. As it stands 4 dims should only be used on workstation boards.

[@mrlithium69]

if the difference is that significant, there will be OC motherboards with only 2 slots like EVGA Dark or something. But for normal people we'd rather have 4 slots for capacity, we should also be glad the manufacturer got that to work enough to be mass produced.

[@shanksisnoteventhatstrongbruh]

what about triple channel?? could that still work ok with one dimm per channel or should we still get stuck with dual channel?? PD: This is just a theoretical question of course, idk of any future CPU generations with triple channel DDR5 ;)

[@Cinnabuns2009]

I just personally love how Z690 boards have double the PCIE bandwidth and half the USB ports on the back for double the price. A fantastic value all around.

[@fredEVOIX]

all my latest motherboards had great USBs and bandwith...must be because I read the friggin manuals before buying them and fpay the price required to have the features I need rather than watch a youtuber's video and listen to their advice when they keep recommending MB "because of the price" the "right" price internet comments keep asking and would not accept anything else than what arranges them not the truth, in the car world and probably other hobbys we say "you've got to pay to play" don't understand why pc people think they won't by some miracle

[@Cinnabuns2009]

@@fredEVOIX Nah, you've got to pay to be an early adopter of a dead end platform. Typical Intel trix.

[@sadiquldey9095]

Definitely! I learnt this the hard way. I needed 128gb of ddr5 memory but the max I could get work is 64gb 2x32gb kit. Why do MB manufacturers advertise max 128gb? Do they have access to a 128gb kit? The best that's available now is a 64gb kit 2x32gb, so naturally one would purchase 2 kits, big mistake. It doesn't work! Very disappointed with Z690 Z790 & ddr5!

[@shadowminor]

Have you seen anything better on the Z790 boards?

[@onemoreriff7644]

Would putting 2 dummy sticks in along side the active ram sticks effect the speeds?

[@Mothringer]

Feels like we need resistive terminators for dimms like we used to use with parallel scsi and base 2 networking.

[@chrcoluk]

Not sure I agree with you on this one for lower priced more mainstream boards, I usually on a new ram tech, start off with 2 dimms to get me going, then I upgrade capacity with another 2 later when prices drop. With only 2 slots I would have to replace the existing dimms to upgrade capacity.

[@milchkopf3881]

he makes the point that you will not need to upgrade later. also, where is the problem in replacing the old kit?

[@thatguy7595]

@@milchkopf3881 having to sell the old one is inconvenient

[@milchkopf3881]

@@nontoxic9960 Who's to say the vaccine doesn't make you gay?

[@AlphaHorst]

@@milchkopf3881 which is a stupid and baseless claim. When have we ever not needed to upgrade? 5 years ago more than 8Gb of RAm was seen as useless and wastefull. now 32Gb are becmming mainstream. in 5 years we might have 250gb of ram in gaming PC`s. noone can say. As for replacing the old kit. 64Gb in 4 dimms is around 200€ 64Gb in 2 dimms is around 300€. SO imagine you have 64GB in 2 slots and need to upgrade to 128Gb two years later so either you sepnd an aditional 200€ or 400€ for new dimms at lower timings etc. And yes you can probably sell your old dimms for a better margin but you still waste a lot of money for a marginal gain in performance. the stability issues mentioned in the video have already started to disappear. Seeking a short term solution that limits the future is just stupit.

[@plonk420]

evidently the Unify can travel forward in time and win a 2022 CES award...

[@ChrisDupres]

More capacity is more important to waaaaay more people than faster transfers. If the standard is going to change it will go to 4dpc not 1dpc

[@ht3k]

Ok but this is actually hardcore overclocking not actually hardcore capacities

[@thatguy7595]

1dpc with 4 channels would be cool, maybe desktop CPUs/APUs could actually match M1 bandwidth then

[@SquintyGears]

I don't agree. Most people never use more than 8GB of ram. If you limit yourself to more intensive users gams and production then, 16 to 32GB is no problem with 2 dimms for games, and the production will use motherboards with extra dimms (HEDT would serve them better for this but it's not getting updated as frequently). The issue here is that they are insisting on making 4 dimm boards because they think it would look bad and wouldn't sell with 2. Gamers make up the majority of "high power" computers these boards cater to and they would only care about speed. So 2 dimm boards make perfect sense not the opposite, but there should always be options.

[@venix20]

i agree Chris you are absolutely right for every non hardcore overclocking case ... Pretty much Buildzoid and you are right for each case scenario ! for you and me the future prospect of adding more ram when needed is more important than squeezing out few more gb/s from the bandwidth , meanwhile buildzoid want to squeeze out every single kb of performance he can , what i do not agree with him is that every motherboard should get rid of the extra slots , i will say the motherboards that are absolutely designed for oc in mind they can get rid of the extra dimms the rest will be best if they kept in place :)

[@rawdez_]

@@venix20 you didn't get it? DDR5 mobos can't even run 4x32gb sticks. all they can do is run 4 x16 while being not faster than DDR4 boards. so if you want more capacity just buy DDR4 boards.

[@Airwave2k2]

Sadly 2 less dimm slots don't make the boards more affordable. Guess DDR5 can suck off till it leaves the adolescence phase and come down significantly in price. ASRock Z690M Phantom Gaming 4 ~175€ Intel Core i5-12600KF ~275€ Corsair Vengeance schwarz DIMM Kit 32GB, DDR5-4800, CL40-40-40-77 ~340€ 800€ for the cheapest crap out on Socket 1700 - PC Building 2021 is a shitshow.

[@rawdez_]

don't forget GPU prices. with those all other prices are pretty much irrelevant. you either can afford a new PC or you just don't. unless you don't play games at all which is just sad.

[@floorgang420]

@@nontoxic9960 Why not? Mismatched used both worse part of the sticks, people like OC obviously notice that.

[@HamsterHawk]

what is the deal with 16x chips vs 8x chips? whats the deal with daisy chaining dimms? i dont understand a lot of the things ur saying because u dont explain. i get what the normative claims but not the descriptive understanding of what ur talking about

[@erikhendrickson59]

Problem here is that the vast majority of PC users have no clue about ANY of this. They see a board with 2 DIMMs slots and automatically assume that makes it a lower-quality product. Also, I picked up a B550 Unify-X (at YOUR recommendation) for my AMD build. It's fuckin' great. SAME DIMMs are running 400MHz higher, with identical timings, compared to my previous (now RETURNED!) GigaByte board!

[@UNVIRUSLETALE]

This only applies if you "just" oc with the board, having double the ram 3 years down the line once your workload goes from 32 to 64 or 64 to 128 rather than replacing everything is a lot more cost effective and reduces e-waste

[@Mike500]

Double the RAM every 3 years? What kind of software are you using? What do you need 64 GB for, let alone 128 GB? Games for example are developed to run on consoles as well, and even the PS5 only has 16 GB of RAM. So the vast majority of games don't even require more than 16 GB. Therefore, 32 GB can already be seen as generous. By the time you actually need 64 GB, your whole system will be outdated. Plus, about "e-waste", are you throwing your old RAM in the trash or something? Of course you would sell it or re-use it otherwise. It only becomes trash after 20 years or so when there is absolutely no use for it anymore. There are still many office PCs today running with DDR3 RAM.

[@johns.1898]

By the time "down the road" comes you'll be able to buy twice as fast RAM for a better price. Matching your old, same-spec, RAM isn't cost effective when you just sell your old memory. But who cares about two sticks of RAM. Might as well through them away.

[@rickss69]

Great idea, but the pickings are slim for 2 dimm mb's unless you are fond of mini-ITX.

[@miladesn]

Amd 7000 looks like it can do 6400 with 2 ranks per channel according to msi.

[@kolai1987]

I ordered an ASUS ROG Maximus Formula MB with 128gb worth of 32gb/stick Corsair Dominator 5200 RAM (4 sticks). I need this RAM because I run over two dozen virtual machines on my computer (currently using 128gb of ddr4 3600 RAM). What sort of speed should I expect to achieve with this setup? I can try my configuration with only 64gb of RAM if the speed payoff is better, but with virtual machines they, like you said, just *need* RAM. Thanks in advance for your time in replying.

[@ActuallyHardcoreOverclocking]

something between 3600 and 4400 Mbps. You could have literally just got DDR4 instead.

[@kolai1987]

@@ActuallyHardcoreOverclocking thanks for the reply. Does DDR4 with 4 32gb sticks clock at 4400? I had a hard time getting my ddr4 board to go beyond 4000 with 4 sticks of 8gb 4133. I am definitely not a pro at this, obvs. If I can't get the speed I would like I can try with two sticks and wait for those 64gb ddr5 sticks you mentioned in the video. Cheers.

[@MDFreaK76]

i'm running ROG Maximus Hero with 4x Corsair 5200 32GB chips. It is not a supported config, but i can boot without XMP and see all 128 gigs. Clock speed is locked at 4000.

[@kolai1987]

@@MDFreaK76 thanks for the reply. 4000 isn't quite what I was hoping for but still not bad for four chips and that much RAM. Did you try the configuration with only two sticks?

[@MDFreaK76]

@@kolai1987 def not what I was hoping for either, but at least it's functional. I am going to try a few more tweaks when I get time, including pulling 2 dimms. I'll update when I do.

[@aluckyshot]

For sure, faster is better. Still not going to lie my slow computer still crushes everything thrown its way with it's slow 64GB of ram and more workstation oriented 6900K. You would hate me with with 8 populated dimms. Your advice is 100% solid though and will be following it for best performance in my new build, thanks for showing the QVL and your reasons. I still love my slow workstation lol

[@GeminionRay]

For the record my first build used a B85 Vanguard. It has 4 slots and eventually 2 of them failed after 3 years. Having 2 more slots helped extended its life another 2 years until it failed completely one day, so I'd rather have unpopulated slots than not having them at all.

[@leonardodeoleo2645]

So i noticed the channel has a Z690 Unify-X Mobo break down and a few other videos. My question is has this channel or anyone else had the chance to compare the Unify-X to the Unify side by side? Very interested in seeing how much inteference can be seen with the extra 2 dimms in the circuit.

[@tomson129]

The problem with 4 slots and only 2 really usable, creates the problem for my OCD that I hate the other 2 being unpopulated, actually the only reason I have 4x 8GB DDR4 right now. Would make sense to cut down to 2 slots. They would save a buck which they can make more money on. Would actually make sense in terms their business, too :D

[@photobeast]

Truth... same here

[@totheknee]

7:13 - I had 32 GB back in 2015, and would max it out regularly. Today it's even harder to get by. I want 256 GB, but DDR5 is apparently horsesh!t when it comes to capacity and decent speed. Kinda depressing. I would expect that 8 years later it wouldn't be impossible to run even 4x the amount of RAM of 2015...

[@bcal_t1]

Aorus Master..I think their more recent Bios update has made the 8 layer better.. they now state 32gb single dimm, which I assume is per channel.. WEIRD WEIRD WEIRD! Im glad I read up about this a lot of people I know are trying to run dual channel 128gb SMH. It even states on the aorus extreme they only ever tested a2/b2, like most. I wonder why they did rolled DDR5 boards like this?

[@Ghennesph]

I have an incomplete krita project that eats over 40GB just being open. I have 64GB. It's very possible that it will require a RAM upgrade to finish.

[@pacificdrum0301]

I assumed DDR5 was going to launch 1dpc quad channel due to mobo leaks of intel test samples. When I saw 4 slots, I was generally confused.

[@concinnus]

DDR5 uses 2x 32bit sub-channels per DIMM, that's probably why.

[@pacificdrum0301]

@@concinnus yeah no reason for 4 slots.

[@RevansNightmare]

I can’t get my Z690 hero to even run with 4 sticks of 5600mhz. Kinda sucks.

[@ActuallyHardcoreOverclocking]

IDK why you'd ever think that would work.

[@WarpedTrekker]

never heard anyone mention "daisy chain" regarding DIMMs before.

[@StishFicks]

I believe one of the reason why 4 dimm slots still exist with DDR5 is because of marketing and the typical consumer who are often times not tech savy. What I mean is, they think they'll need more in the future so they end up demanding motherboards with 4 dimm slots. I can guarantee that DDR5 boards with only 2 dimm slots will be overlooked because "oh it only has 2 dimm slots so I can't add more in the future". I'm sure these board manufacturers are also frustrated in this but they have to keep pushing DDR5 boards with 4 dimm slots just for the sake of marketing, else they won't make any sale to the typical consumer. Reminds me of the FX days where people were disabling 4 of the cores to the FX 8000 series just to get better overclocks. Why TF will someone buy an 8 core (technically 4 but w/e) processor just to disable 4 of the cores? Why will someone buy a 4 dimm motherboard just to use 2? Oh I'll just finance a large 4x4 pickup truck with a large V8 just so I can drive to and from my office job. Who cares if I have to park it on the street of busy downtown roads, right??.. 🙄

[@batuhancokmar7330]

If we think of it that way, DDR5 shouldn't even exist in consumer market. Think of it this way, my 5820K runs pretty old/slow 2666MHz Cl14 DDR4 memory on *Quad* channel, which is equivalent to 5333MHz Cl28 *Dual* channel memory. Doubling memory channels would have doubled memory performance and added costs to CPU/MB what? 10$ each? 20? Much more reasonable than (eventually) having to buy same amount of DDR5 for 400+$. -If I was on a 8700K and with 4x8GB 3600MHz RAM, I would be happy to transfer my ram to my new build and automatically have twice the ram performance for free. -If I was on a 8700K with 2x16GB 3600MHz RAM, I would have been happier to add another 2x16GB and have twice the ram performance and size for 1/3rd the cost. But no. Anyone upgrading from such config today will have to buy 32GB DDR5-6000MHz for 650$, get same capacity and inferior performance than the alternative I've stated above.

[@xubious]

Newegg is having a banging combo. Only $920 for 32gb and a mobo!!! Wow!

[@NotThatGuyJD]

I mean it's not like anyone can find 4 sticks of DDR5 to put in a system right now anyhow

[@dainluke]

We have the cheapest DDR5 on Earth

[@kernelpickle]

Back in the day, I think it was the RAMBUS era, we used to need Dummy sticks of RAM to populate any unused slots. So, if you could only afford 2 sticks for a dual channel, 4 slot board, you meed 2 dummy sticks to fill it up. Most folks I knew just bought more RAM, but it was definitely a thing you could do. Might be worth looking into finding or making some Dummy sticks of DDR5, rather than potentially wrecking one of your boards. Nowadays I think I’ve seen DDR4 do it for purely aesthetic reasons, because some people want as much RGB as possible. I’m also wondering if the issue you’re seeing with 4 sticks could be the result of too much heat building up? Maybe some dummy sticks with fans on them would be fun to try, to see if you can boost even higher. You could probably get a couple videos out of testing some janky cooling setups to see if you can cool 4 sticks down to a level that performs as well as 2 sticks? Your results are interesting, but it also makes me wonder if 4 slot boards should just be quad channel, because the way a single stick of DDR5 works, each one is essentially as dual 32-bit channels, rather than a single 64-bit. There might be a hard limit on current memory controllers being able to handle the ridiculous amount of parallel channels, and for a 4 slot, dual channel board, you actually need something that can handle double that. I don’t know if memory controllers for servers are substantially different, but I wonder if something built to handle a quad channel server could keep up with a dual channel DDR5 board with 4 slots? Your results are interesting and make me glad I’m not one of the early adopters, but it raises a lot of interesting questions that will need to be answered before I take the plunge.

[@ActuallyHardcoreOverclocking]

I've asked about dummy DDR dimms. They don't work and they still don't solve the distance problem.

[@kernelpickle]

@@ActuallyHardcoreOverclocking Damn, that's unfortunate. It would've been a super simple solution to the problem if it would've worked. Good luck with attempting to remove the slots yourself. It should make for some interesting videos.

[@kelvinyonger8885]

Server IMCs can't handle high frequencies (will barely run faster JEDEC speeds), but are much bigger to handle all the channels. I don't see why you couldn't build a monstrously large IMC for desktop, but the RAM speeds and latency would go through the floor, and with DDR5 bandwidth isn't really a problem for most workloads. Also would cannibalized HEDT even mroe than DDR5 desktop CPUs already are.

[@nemthefearless]

On DDR-One a few consumer boards supported Registered DIMMs. Sure , that doesn't do anything about the problems caused by the extra slot, but BZ is "only" seeing a 6.6% loss of OC from the extra slots if left unpopulated. Once filled however, you're back to 4800. If the DIMMs were fully buffered, perhaps you'd only be loosing 200mhz or so.. .

[@knooters]

I find it hilarious that my budget B550 setup was literally "plug'n'play" with 4x32GB 3600MHz DDR4, and now we have long rant videos about how 2x16GB of DDR5 is the way to go on Z690 motherboards. By the time we see 64GB sticks, I bet these boards are outdated and won't even work with those sticks. It's not like you can throw any 32GB stick in any old DDR4 motherboard and expect it to work :)

[@rawdez_]

did you enable XMP and what exact RAM model with what CPU/mobo you're using.

[@YourComputer]

Let's say I purchase 2 x 48GB DDR5 and my mobo has 4 RAM slots. Does this mean I should avoid dual-channel to theoretically reach max stability with near advertised settings?

[@charleshines1553]

Only 2? Wouldn't that make any large memory upgrade wickedly expensive? Think about it rather than populating more slots with smaller modules you end up buying 2 that are more expensive. I have a hard enough time finding a graphics card for a fair price with all the scalping that is happening. We need to regulate scalping of ALL items 100% OUT of existence and have very severe penalties for anyone attempting to scalp items. It is one thing to make a profit on something but those assholes (scalpers and crypto miners) are asking for way too much money.

[@generalgrevous1984]

Best Rant of the year. I always use 2 Dims - 4 seems to me just an opportunity to cash in on gamers belief that more slots equal more speed.

[@AlphaHorst]

ah yes because only gamers use PC`s with ATX boards. It is not like 64Gb of ram in 2 dims cost 4 times or more as much as 64Gb in 4 dimms. Lets fuck the ones who have to do more than gaming. And honestly at the rate things are going what ever you have in those 2 slots will be obsolete in 2years. And upgrading will cost you twice or more as much as it will me.

[@Apollo-Computers]

@@AlphaHorst yea I find it odd, that most of the comments are about games...it's like that's all pc's are good for...

[@commanderoof4578]

Issue probable comes down to the wire length form the CPU to Ram been an issue on DDR4 so defiantly will be for DDR5

[@DJaquithFL]

Umm no, I totally disagree for a couple reasons. First, unless you are buying a "quad" set of DDR5 4 X __GB you are MIXING different sets together. Right around the DDR2 to DDR3 transition, this is a big problem, especially with AMD. There are a few quad DDR5 sets you can purchase. However, I think that we're going to see more of them and faster sets once the DDR5-7200 (PC5-57600) standard is used.

[@DJaquithFL]

.. The other reason is if you need a lot of RAM. Running them at default settings should work. Still refer to the motherboards QVL list.

[@MadPotoo]

It doesn't matter how fast the kits can go when QVL for 4x16GB is stuck at 4800MHz max at the moment. Also what's your point of mixing different sets? You can just buy two of the same dual kit.

[@DJaquithFL]

@@MadPotoo .. There are faster sets than DDR5 4800. Just one example, Corsair offered a 4x16GB DDR5 5200 CMT64GX5M4B5200C38 and there have been other faster DDR5 4X kits. The breakdown is with voltages to run them faster.

[@DJaquithFL]

@@MadPotoo .. Also often with the faster kits of DDR4 you would run across similar problems of instability placing two sets together and trying to make them into a "quad" set. There are plenty of threads where people are able to get DDR5 to run in 4X over 6000 MT/s, the problem again is the voltages.

[@MadPotoo]

@@DJaquithFL I know there are kits faster than 4800, and I also know more voltage should lead to higher speeds. However there is another issue in this whole situation which is memory rank, and that depends on whether you are running 4x8 or 4*16. 4*16 is quad rank which is always going to be harder to run than 4x8 which is dual rank, cos more rank = more stress on the CPU's memory controller. And then within dual rank setup you also have 2x16 which as AHOC mentioned runs at higher stable speeds on dual slot boards than 4*8 on quad slot boards. So when you say 'instability of quad set' it's also important to mention memory rank. I run 2 8GB dual kits on my Z390 Aorus Master and is able to achieve 4133C16, so you can absolutely 'make them into a quad set' as long as the dies are the same.

[@hairlessmonkeyboy3982]

strongly agree

[@Aviduduskar]

And basically no Z690 motherboard has anything besides daisy chain topology?

[@ActuallyHardcoreOverclocking]

everything is daisy chain AFAIK. T-top would probably be pretty much non functional on 6 layers with only half the dimms populated.

[@aramgaribyan6248]

I'm confused, when you're talking about "6 Layer or 8 Layer", what are your referring to? My thoughts go towards the PCB layer stack-up, but do you mean the number of signal layers utilized for routing the DDR memory groups?

[@concinnus]

mATX would be the sweet spot for value if they did this. As it is, overpriced ITX or ATX are the only options.

[@erikhendrickson59]

Overpriced due to manufacturing, I would guess. They're very niche products so not many are manufactured which inherently increases the cost.

[@concinnus]

@@erikhendrickson59 For ATX, that's all. ITX has the additional issue of high density requiring more layers and now daughterboards. Really wish DTX took over instead.

[@Nobody90019]

I'm a big fan of mATX. I've got a Mechanic Master C28 on the way here. It's gonna be a SFF PC that has an mATX board. Loads of power for under 17 liters without using ITX. #winning

[@konga382]

The biggest issue with mATX is that most cases designed for it are terrible, and your GPU ends up with just an inch or two of space between it and a solid PSU shroud. There are some good mATX-friendly cases though, such as the O11 Mini. We need more cases like that.

[@concinnus]

@@konga382 My PC is built into my desk, and custom looped, so I just want a sub-ATX 2-DIMM board with a decent VRM and optical audio.

[@joelimmanueloelsner9211]

That's kinda stupid that if you want a 128gb workstation, none of the 400€+ Boards works. So you would need to use ddr4 but there are no ddr4 workstation boards... 🙄

[@max_uaminecraft1827]

Can you not make up the speed with lower timings?

[@MaheerKibria]

I love how overclocker think only in terms of overclocking. Now I don't have any ddr5 machines but pretty sure we don't have a either you have enough RAM or you don't since developers created Paging years ago. Apps wil will run fine with the minumum amount of RAM but don't think it won't use the additional RAM if it can if it's paging stuff. And trust me the difference of performance between paging and not paging is order of magnitude not 5 percent you might see by having faster RAM. Also pretty sure Speed isn't as important for most users that aren't overclockers or running a 3090 at 1080p for maximum FPS. For most gaming user, you are not going to see/feel that extra RAM memory bandwidth because you are more likely than not GPU limited since the majority of gamers are on xx60 class GPUs. What I imagine most users that don't upgrade their system each genrations are going to think is important is hey can I upgrade this machine down the line easily, and 4 DIMMS allows for easy upgrade not to mention you get to continue using the original 2 stick of RAM so you don't have to spend more money or spend time trying to sell RAM. And do you know who is more likely do do that. people buying the standard or budget model of MB... It's almost like Asus, and MSI and ASRock have marketing team and sales divisions that do this research... Oh yeah they do.

[@kolai1987]

I just bought a ddr5 board because I am upgrading to a 12th gen i9 and I don't see why I would buy a ddr4 board at this point. I need 128gb of ram, but also play games. If I can get 4400 mhz ddr5 with four 32 sticks it's better than the 3200 pr 3600 I can get with ddr4 and four sticks. Also.. when they drop 64gb or 128gb ddr5 I can upgrade to that and reduce my stick count.

[@Sajid_Sarker]

So should I wait to build a 64gb DDR5 workstation? Or go for 12 gen with DDR4 boards?

[@alexgarcia2071]

Hi BZ - How does the Z690 Apex compare to say the Unify-X? I keep reading the APEX board is having trouble with high MHZ chips like the g skill 6000c36 with unstable xmp and even manual settings but the Unify-X seems to be handling it well - are we bios updates from the APEX board addressing those issues or is there an actual issue somewhere? Debating between the two boards. I also heard the Apex has a slow boot issue.

[@hadoukenocx4746]

i dont know but EVGA has most of the times 2xDim slots :)

[@666Necropsy]

i dont think the mother board manufactures have figured out the best topology for ddr5 yet. it will take time. i have to look at some latency numbers. i bet most good ddr4 is running faster, latency wise. i dont have a need for 4 sticks yet. i am missing out on duel rank but gain in using 1t and lower timings, ect.

[@ronhenderson9258]

It isn't.

[@Celician83]

Random thought, if running 4 DDR5 slots is worse than running DDR4, then how about making boards compatible with both DDR4 AND DDR5, 2 slots each!

[@marcogenovesi8570]

Intel does not allow it. It's an actual rule from them. Maybe for AMD you can

[@Celician83]

@@marcogenovesi8570 they didnt allow both DDR3 and DDR4 to be on motherboards, but that didnt stop AIB's from doing it. You just couldnt use both DDR3 and DDR4 slots at the same time

[@marcogenovesi8570]

@@Celician83 Afaik there was no limitation before

[@joemarais7683]

Normally I'd be like "But RAM upgrades are easier with 4 DIMMS" but I can't see 32gb being a necessity for daily use in 5 years, and 64gb in a Z690 board's useful life. Really no reason to have more than 2 slots on non workstation platforms with DDR5 capacities.

[@AlphaHorst]

5 years ago 16Gb of ram was called unneeded for another 10 years today we have 32gb of ram creeping closer to the "needed" rather than the "future proof" mark. Any prediction further out than 2 years is at best a 10% chance even 2 years out is basically just coin flipping. at the beginning of2019 4K gaming was seen as not viable for many years to come in october 2019 we saw a rise in 4k gaming of nearly 5% just be cause of the new RTX 3000 series. 32GB of ram are a necesity for daily use today. Most high midrange builds come with 32Gb of ram as a baseline. Most professional programs require 16gb as their minimum. Modern games want 14-16gb of ram as a minimum. In 5 years we might be running 250gb or 1tb ram confics for all we know.

[@korencek]

So what is better for system responsiveness? Highly overclocked ddr4 or ddr5 at 4800mhz? To run solidworks simulations and work with solidworks in general.... ddr4 or ddr5?

[@LedNe0nDevil]

Bz, I love you. But, I think you should love Mini-ITX the way you love single slot per memory channel. Nowadays MB don't even have memory controllers anymore, not long from now, cpus will have integrated all sata and usb. So you should really care about it, the way you do and think about memory, because it all should go towards the same goal. Minimize, grow better. you know the works.

[@ChristianStout]

I think the main appeal of 2-dimms-per-channel is so you can populate one now and have an empty one for future upgrades.

[@lorenzoferraces6443]

true, but i think that for ddr5 bought now, either you wont upgrade bc you don't need more ram, or if you need you can just go with higher capacity dimms altogether

[@TheHalo294]

@@lorenzoferraces6443 so 250€ CPU, 200€ Board and 800€ RAM?

[@lorenzoferraces6443]

@@TheHalo294 if you have a 200usd/pounds cpu, you are probably overspending on a 200usd mobo and wont be able to use that much ram

[@ronhenderson9258]

I have a theory about the APEX, I sent you (well, I think it is you) a message on OCN; I am pretty sure the default skew/PHY settings on the apex is why you just can't transplant voltages and timings between the APEX/other boards. I set you a list of config values to compare between them. I'd love to see what the results are.

[@eugkra33]

MSI should make a Buildzoid branded motherboard, with all the stuff he wants. Give him 10% of the net profits. ... but maybe that would just be what the Unify-X is already. If it only it didn't cost $500. Just give me a $200 m-ATX board with 2 RAM slots, a good VRM, and 7+ USB ports and I'd be happy.

[@rawdez_]

can't wait to see videos/howtos of you ripping memory slots off various mobos))

[@majorleaguegrowing]

please keep preaching, mobo manufacturers need to see this

[@juanvaldino1]

Hello ! I have question if u can answer please. I buy z690 hero 12900k and ram corsair dominator platinum 2x16 gb 5200 cl 40 , and i check on asus z690 memory support and there i didn t find my memory only support maximum cl 38 on corsair platinum, what i can do? My pc workig fine no problems now with xmp1 , but it can damage my pc? Please answer , thank you

[@666Necropsy]

factory ddr4 has sticks running at 1.45 volts. this should be a safe voltage for say a 1.35 volt ddr4 kit then right? 1.45 volts is the highest i have seen ddr4 at. its crazy to see that high voltage on ddr5. i would think ddr5 should be under that, like 1.35 volts.

[@brovid-19]

Hi, buildsuite. Where's buildzoid?

[@ashearavonderboerde7194]

Won't the bandwidth doubled by 4 dimms ,so that slower is at the end faster by 2 dimms ?

[@Frozoken]

No, consumer motherboards are only 2 channels, 4 dimms is like trying tp force 4 sticks through 2 channels which is why you see the big speed hit. On workstation motherboards where they have 4 channels if not higher than you'd be right but if that was the case, as I said, we wouldn't see nearly as much of a frequency hit anyway

[@GeneralSouthParkFan]

Aaand now Hynix AGB is out in the market (in China for now) and does DDR5-7000 on 2dpc boards. Cool.

[@Erelyes]

So, ROG STRIX Z690-I Gaming WIFI DDR5 unironically the best Z690 board? Or am I missing something here?

[@jacobtrapp3772]

Just keep ripping ram slots off boards and you'll be fine lol

[@yol_n]

Can you give some advice if I want to buy a motherboard without wanting to overclock in mind? I plan on getting 128gb ram. 2 RAM slots of 4 ram slots? At what speed? I'll buy a ryzen 9 XD but will probably buy one from the next generation 120W is ughh

[@Frozoken]

A bit late but 128gb isn't possible with 2 dimms. Regardless overclocking aside the appeal for me is also being able to run anything other than 2x16gb at high speeds with 2 dimm boards. If you have a 4 dimm board but buy a 2x32gb it will also run massively slower than 2x16gb, on a 2 dimm board it'll be a little slower but not by much. Either way, though, on a 2 dimm board u can only get 96gb as of now. The difference is that 128gb on a 4 dimm board will run at like 4800mhz if you're lucky while the 96gb on the 2 dimm board can run like 6800mhz If not higher.

[@mircomputers]

truth was spoken

[@Upon]

Virgin DDR5 Black PCB 8 Layer 1DPC Motherboard vs Chad DDR1 Green PCB no copper 1 layer PCB

[@BAJF93]

I have a cheap Z170 from Gigabyte. Highest rating according to the QVL is 2x8@3466. Meanwhile I'm running stable 3866 and could boot with 4000. The kit goes higher on other platforms. I'd say there's still a bit of hope for DDR5 OC.

[@MrKentaroMotoPI]

More data for Buildzoid's theory: Luumi just tested the eVGA Dark Kingpin at 6933 MT/s CL31.

[@Sleepy.Time.]

this is np because i cant find two sticks of DDR5 to buy let alone four

[@AlphaHorst]

Well now chances are these problems will be gone or partially fixed by the time you can find them XD

[@UnluckyDomino]

Could you make a video testing 4000mhz+ ddr4 on the gigabyte z690 boards? They released a BIOS update for all the boards which has fixes for RAM stability according to the release notes

[@yosixxx]

They know consumers will think more slots are better and look cooler. Makes no sense when ddr5 can fit so much memory in one stick.

[@AlphaHorst]

it does. 5 years ago a 16GB stick of RAM was called ludicrous and never needed not in the next decate. Two years later 16Gb was getting closer o the mainstream and now it is the baseline for any modern game or workstation. 32GB is already getting closer to "needed" than "just to be safe" clasification. in 10 years we might be laughing at the poor 500gb peasants. So limiting upgradability for a short term solution is something I can not agree to.

[@captnivek]

I just ordered the Meg msi z690 motherboard. Where can I get that chipset SK Hynix M.???

[@prunn]

why not just 1 dimm slot on cheaper boards? every dimm is dual channel, I didn't find much on how the sub-channels work on ddr5 but the little I found seem to indicate that 1 (dual) is enough for gaming, but 2 (quad) is better for intensive workstation tasks

[@ActuallyHardcoreOverclocking]

DDR5 channesl are half the width of DDR4 memory channels.

[@GuidoDePalma]

I totally agree with you!

[@kelownatechkid]

I don't want to buy 64GB sticks in order to have a reasonable amount of memory though :/ VMs are something that many people need lol. Running 128GB with 4x32GB is really convenient.

[@rulik006]

yes, DDR5 overclocking limited mainly by motherboards