Debate: Is the New Testament Reliable?

[@tylrcornelius]

Mr. Baker: “please don’t be condescending.” Dr. White: “have you read any of my books?” Mr. Baker: “no, thankfully.”

[@onemindonespirit]

This debate is like watching an average guy trying to run against Olympic track athletes.

[@Chirhopher]

And screaming forward to them, slow down, show me how to do it, i just want to learn; all while intentionally running off the track

[@DigitalEagle2700]

😂😂

[@JesusismyGOD]

Chuckle

[@Huckleberry123ABC]

I completely agree with this man the Bible that I read the King James says God head Trinitarian is straight from the pits of hell

[@busybee4436]

We need to pray for Lee Baker's salvation.

[@James-wx9bf]

Busy Bee Amen!! I pray that he comes home...

[@mancaveedc7596]

Perfect example of OSAS being wrong?

[@Alec_Cox]

@@mancaveedc7596 Actually, Le Barker wasn't saved the 1st time. He never left the Mormon Cult. I have seen this many times. The "OSAS" is 100% truth; when a person totally allows Christ into their heart and life and turns away (repents) from their previous belief. Otherwise, every time you sinned you would have to ask for salvation again as Catholics do...

[@uwekonnigsstaddt524]

Exactly my thoughts!!! He sure needs a lot of prayers.

[@mmwosu]

My thoughts exactly from his opening statement on. No grounding, no standard, and no way to discern the truth. This will take an act of the Holy Spirit to unravel.

[@rayma66]

Mr. Baker is in so much pain. We should all pray for him. This is the fruit of mormonism, guys.

[@timbotron4000]

Spot on. You could tell from his closing statement that he feels lost and his world has been shattered by his doubts and experiences.

[@nickhancock5584]

💯

[@DragnSly]

I left that cult a little over 5 years ago, and I floated around in limbo for several years, trying to make sense of everything, of what I should believe, of how much of Mormonism was true, and how much wasn't, etc. I praise God everyday that He opened my eyes and ears to His Truth, and for good and faithful pastors like Dr. James White and Jeff Durban for their knowledge and ministry along the way. To say that bad theology harms people is a tragic understatement.

[@kelli4555]

⁠​⁠@@DragnSlycompletely agree. Mormonism in particular seems like it muddies the waters of Christianity immensely, causing so much confusing and making it an impossibility to come to a saving faith. So grateful that our Lord does the impossible! And so, so grateful that your eyes were opened by Him to Truth🙏 what a testimony!

[@BenNocella]

Thank you guys at Apologia so much for posting these. Such a blessing.

[@Cosigner22]

Why is Mr. Baker even in this debate? It's painfully obvious that he has no clue what's going on and is severely confused on the topic. He definitely did not listen twice as hard as he debated, like he said he would in his opening statements. What a waste of Dr. White's time, which is apparent in the wrinkles on his forehead...lol. I'll be praying for Mr. Baker and his understanding.

[@dand4485]

Possibly not a waste of Dr. White's time, we all benefited out if it...? Then again completely agree with you comment what was he even in the debate for. Thought one time Dr. White ask "Do you know what Biblical Criticism actually is, or what it is all about..." Mr. Baker, uh.... no???? Might be me but Mr. Backer sure sounded like an undisciplined whiny child i don't want to study I DEMAND YOU TELL ME THE ANSWER (and i'll still find something to complain about)... Is it me, talking about this i'm getting frustrated and annoyed... :(

[@mmwosu]

Dan Doris It wasn’t just you. Baker’s entire argument boiled down to “this study is too hard and time consuming, do it for me.” I have a very hard time with respecting that mentality. First off, they HAVE done it for you, you just personally dislike the conclusions of those efforts. Second, when I went through questions and doubts of my own and when the poorly studied Christians around me failed to provide satisfactory answers, I didn’t throw the baby out with the bath water, but instead I rolled up my sleeves and did the hard work for myself. I’m no more or less capable in this area than Mr Baker or anyone else, especially considering we’re all living in an age where any piece of information conceivable is literal keystrokes away. It’s one thing to have looked at the evidence and to simply disagree about it (as Bart Ehrman does), but Mr Baker is wearing his ignorance as a badge of honor in front of a room of spectators who were lured there under the false pretense that they would be witnessing an informed debate. So yes, legitimately frustrating....

[@dand4485]

@@mmwosu Completely agree with you, Mr. Baker reminds of the passage from Proverbs 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

[@CBALLEN]

According to scripture,Mr. Baker was never a Christian because he walked away to prove He was never of us.Now,God may still save him,but he was NEVER born again in the past.Let us pray God takes out his heart of stone and give him a heart of flesh.

[@jerylharper9145]

Dr. White comes across as, "I'm better, smarter and more educated than you and don't you ever forget it"! Where's the humbleness and compassion? Of course he can rattle off colleagues, apologists, early church fathers and philosophers at a moment's notice. But is that the essence of Christianity? Clearly Mr. Baker is hurting. Dr. White gets a goose egg for strutting his knowledge. WWJD?

[@krazo4Christ]

After I was saved, I certainly had doubts about the authenticity of the Bible. I read a book called 'Jesus, Interrupted,' which was very critical. Ironically, it taught me most of history is less accurate than the Bible. I have had lessons in textual criticism since, but I never doubted the Bible again.

[@joannaflowers5563]

Do you recommend any sources in particular? I'm very interested in looking further into alot of this stuff.

[@JoshHerbel]

Dr. White is the ultimate pro debater on all levels. He should teach debate as well as theology.

[@malcolmtheseceder7700]

Lol

[@BasedBalboni]

He truly is.

[@lineshooter5w]

I wholeheartedly pray that others follow suit to defend the gospel as he is.

[@KINGBARBERGRAM]

Yea fr fr

[@credenzabelladonna-fatale2487]

Hardly. I’m so offended by his insulting his opponents that I don’t even care what he has to say.

[@cripsician]

This is an outstanding debate. Great job James. I pray Mr Baker will see the light of Christ soon and continue searching

[@frankmacias7244]

Lee Baker is struggling within himself to understand "happiness"

[@SPARTANSIX-1]

So according to Mr Baker, the book of Isaiah isn’t in the Old Testament. Because he says that the messiah was not shown in the OT to have been born of a virgin, or die etc. but in that book alone all of his accusations are refuted. Maybe it is because a lot of Jewish rabbis don’t even acknowledge Isaiah 53 because they know it describes a suffering messiah who perishes.

[@walteraldrete6396]

I'm always so hyped for James White. "I'm asking the questions here sir" I'm dead 🤣

[@chrisc7579]

Bro, brother White is a grade A beast. Love that brother to death.

[@TimothyLittle13]

"Tone it down for my intelligence. I can't compete with you!"

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

​@@TimothyLittle13Yep. Ignorance and arrogance is a fatal combination, but that's not quite what this was. This was ignorance and impetuosity. I wonder how competent he was in his intelligence career.

[@all4jesus594]

Hi Lee, l have been so grateful for your videos coming out of Mormonism. I appreciate your sincerity, l know that feeling as an exmormon as one who feels the betrayal of being lied to. My search for faith God and grounding took me all over this world. It was decades untill l found the Lord, Jesus. May l respectfully suggest you keep your heart and mind open although you are tempted to throw the baby Jesus out. Your arguments didn't win here tonight. I am praying for you, and l care for you.

[@joannaflowers5563]

Throw the baby Jesus out?? How about rejecting the name above every name and God of the universe who alone can save.

[@beautifulfeetpreachingsc]

This man Baker is a lost soul and simply put his pride is on display to his detriment.

[@gordash1443]

The whole old testament is about the life death and resurrection of Christ . He still has the scales on his eyes .

[@dand4485]

To his credit, Mr. Baker was asking why, but then again really seemed to be as a whiny little toddler "Why won't anyone tell me, i'm lazy and disobedient, i want people to tell me as i don't want to study..." Thankfully he is asking somewhat valid questions, that being if we take a step back a very valid point? To know we have an accurate Bible, we can give him credit for that. But watching the vidoe part of it was he got muffed that he couldn't buy the cheap Bible for those in Africa, why wasn't the perfume sold (ooops wrong story but the only thought that comes to mind when i hear people bring up money usually) Sure if that was Mr. Backer's concern couldn't he pay $0.50 or a $1.00 more per Bible and gotten a translation he preferred. And as much as i might agree with some of the points Mr. Backer was making even the distorted Bibles would not be a huge stumbling block to the Holy Spirit working in the hearts of thos reading the Bibles.... Hmm did he buy English Bibles for those in Africa.... Hmmm?

[@brendanwright8415]

gord ash I just love Luke 24:27, teaching the apostles that the scriptures are ALL about Him. Amazing really.

[@jeffcarlin5866]

If the Old Testament is truly about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus...then why are the Jews not convinced...? Are they stupid? Are they unable to understand the text? Are they deceiving themselves?!

[@chriswhitejr1689]

I’m 10 minutes in, and I don’t want to be unkind, but this is the weakest opening statement I have ever heard. Dr. White’s gonna blow this man out of the water. We need to pray for Mr. Baker’s salvation. Maybe this debate will make him rethink some things.

[@malcolmtheseceder7700]

After the two opening statements Baker is winning. He's exactly right: textual critics like White are using Bibles they don't believe are fully the Word of God. They have cast huge doubt over the trustworthiness of the Bible in our hands. Baker is wrong to reject Christianity because of this issue. We know God has preserved His Word. But people like White are doing huge damage to the faith with their higher criticism. White's opening statement was awful. Far more concerned with showing off his "learning" than defending the English Bible in our hands. And he sits shaking his head because Baker won't accept his learning and his knowledge of all the different manuscript names. But who cares about that? Textual criticism is poison to the faith and piety of the church. The Bible is not like any other text. It is the inspired Word of God. Baker is obviously deeply wrong in the conclusions he has drawn because of this. But it's only a testament to what the work of people like White has done to the church.

[@rogerdukelogosscholar9371]

James White did blow him out of the water, but it was Lee Baker's closing statement that revealed his true agenda of attacking Jesus Christ. Absolutely disgraceful for a man to do this within the walls of the church. White and the parishioners must have an abundance of grace to not throw this man out.

[@witforjesus]

Dr. White did a good job, but Lee left a lot of his arguments toward the end where they couldn't all be addressed. Lee has 4 lines of argumentation that he uses against the NT and only 2 of them came out in his opening statement. This recorded debate is an excellent tool to help the rest of us who are dealing with the aftermath of Lee's apostasy. Thank you Dr. White for taking the effort to do this debate. I'm going to be putting out a full detailed review of this debate to help viewers understand how Lee mixed and matched is 4 lines of argumentation throughout the debate and clear up what Lee didn't get out on the table during the debate. Again, this is going to be a very helpful tool for those of us who are trying to help the Ex-Mormons who are struggling with his apostasy. Thank you! Thank you! BTW, I just posted Dr. White's initial rebuttal to Lee's 15 points here. I appreciate that your ministry gave me permission to post this review. Again, we really appreciate your help with these issues - kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWaco6ugaNZ0pq8

[@uwekonnigsstaddt524]

After this “performance”, Baker neeeeeeeeds lots of prayers!!!

[@witforjesus]

Here's my full review of the debate I just finished it last week - kzbin.info/www/bejne/nnKbo4eFdtSNga8

[@4jgarner]

Thank you for the links! I'll be watching after I finish the debate.

[@jenniferbtoo9344]

Thank you for posting the debates. This is a subject that hits close to home as a dear friend has gone down this same rabbit path and has left the faith. It breaks my heart. Thank you Dr. White for always standing for the truth.

[@brendanwright8415]

What I’m hearing is “We need to throw out the NT because I didn’t do my homework” BOOM

[@oliverjamito9902]

Beloved Brendan, imperfect man I am indeed. But with sincere tears and conversations with God revealed who they are truly, their worth and true purpose of their lives? How much is your life is worth my beautiful beloved? Life given and life taken away? Sincere conversations with God comes with sincere answers from God. Foolish conversations comes foolish answers. Really, the motive is for you and me to uphold 1st. Love God 2nd. Love thy neighbors as thyself. Ought to let you know? You are kings and priests who are worth respecting, honoring, loving, and giving my life for a friend kind of love. Who is worth more than anything nor everything that exists! These words are given to Jesus christ own. We judge not yet ye be judge. But Jesus said to judge the tree by it's fruits. New testament is a new GARMENT not to destroy the old GARMENT but to truly fulfill according to the word of God. When awaken...will not stop until all evil works becomes extinct! Beloved strong men they rather wash feet to show they can be humble. Likewise, can be humble to bound giants by their hands and feet. Will bring truth and peace reunite for good and wiping tears from all eyes. If you have an old t-shirt old GARMENT that needs patching? You can't use a new GARMENT to patch. Because, the old GARMENT will fade away and the new GARMENT will not.

[@cripsician]

That was phenomenal. It was amazing to see James have immediate answers to all the questions and profoundly refute Mr. Lee. It was almost like listening to a child crying because he didnt get a sucker because he didnt do his studies and failed his class. And the parent, James, tried to reason with him to say, if youd did your homework and studies, you would understand the message of Christ as Messiah.

[@Matthew-307]

Getting a basic understanding of textual criticism has been such a blessing to my walk with Christ. It pulled me out of KJV-onlyism and Dr White was instrumental in that.

[@matthewwinter7660]

It hurts to see Mr. Baker struggle so much in this debate. He just was very unprepared and you can see he's deeply hurt from his past with whatever Christian teaching he was given. It seems his responses are not based on evidence but on his anger and hurt. I hope he will realize that Jesus can heal those wounds. Prayers for him

[@fruitsnacks155]

yep i saw the same thing. it seems like he just has a personal vendetta against christianity and mormonism.

[@Swordoftruth289]

​@fruitsnacks155 even though he was the victim of a deceitful church? Would you be angered at someone lying to you your whole life?

[@ericandrade1137]

I hope and pray Baker rewatches this debate and learns a lot of things from it. Mainly that he repents and turns to Christ. Baker sadly seems to have attended churches that didn’t have competent leaders and clearly weren’t scholars. Much love to you Baker, hope you and your family turn to Christ. Thank you Dr White for accepting the debate, maybe Dr Brown needs to have a long conversation with Baker also.

[@j.huffhumble4281]

This isn’t a debate ! Mr. Baker seems unorganized and anxious ? He talks about the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and apologizes for what he doesn’t know ???? Already lost !!!

[@dand4485]

Agreed, when starting to listen to their opening arguments, first thought Mr. Baker seemed to have a valid point. However after Dr. White's opening discussion about the issues, how the differences occurred, i'm now scratching my head why Mr. Baker is raising the issue at all... The one thing might assert if we get Biblical.. 2 Tm 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. Seems that Mr. Baker doesn't feel or see the obligation for one to study themselves on our own...

[@uwekonnigsstaddt524]

Dan Doris Baker clearly demonstrated he hasn’t study anything. He can’t answer questions about a subject he doesn’t know about, nor have a cohesive thought in regards why he believes on what he believes. If he believes or know anything.

[@donwillis5802]

In his defense, he just wants answers. Maybe a 1 on 1 session would have been better than a Live Debate? Blessings to Lee for asking questions a lot of people are scared to ask. Thx for the upload.

[@thegap0]

FINALLY!! We can comment on Dr. White's debates!!

[@ghostl1124]

Amen.

[@jonkent928]

😂 I'm here for this

[@RaulTorresMorfin]

Lee Baker left mormonism but mormonism never left him......

[@Jonathan_Gen15.6]

😂. Best commentary of this debate

[@stacypitts9590]

Easy win for Dr. White. I actually feel stupider for listening to this whole debate. Lee is so helplessly confused and super ANGRY about it. I pray that he see the light.

[@asailorsvoyage]

Stacy Pitts Girl same. I was so bored and lost after a few minutes.😂

[@jameswheat4225]

Agreed

[@ghostl1124]

maybe you should hug your dog and say to yourself,....it'll be alright.

[@stem289]

"I will listen twice as hard as I will debate" - speaks almost every 1-4 sentences James speaks.

[@SecondTimothy224through26]

Thank you for all your debates and interactions. It’s all given way to very necessary knowledge that has given me the courage to share the gospel with every persuasion of person.

[@zchilli0808]

I am so grateful for Dr. White's ministry. Glory to God.

[@reformedtubers1028]

My heart goes out Baker and his family. He’s still searching for the TRUTH and journeying in unlearning the deceptive teachings of the Mormonism that they were once entangled by. Praying that the spirit of wisdom and revelation enlighten the eyes of his heart so that they will come to know the full knowledge of the TRUTH🙏🙏❤️

[@Oak138]

1:03:53 Correcting the verse numbers before hearing the question 😂. Well done Dr White!

[@jeanmariechopin5080]

I feel bad for Mr. Baker. That made me really sad.

[@mikedavid3087]

Yes, it is sad. I was so sad also.

[@joshhenderson7723]

You’d think this guy would have watched a few debates to see how they go before agreeing to debate one of the most well respected apologists of our time. Man this is rough.

[@fruitsnacks155]

yep….

[@athena2483]

Dr. James White closing statement literally gave me chills. You can see the difference between the fruits of Christianity vs atheism.

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

The other fella, of course, isn't an atheist. He believes in some kind of god, he's just thoroughly confused. He puts me in mind of a baby who's confused about where he's woken up and gets really cranky because of it.

[@coolguy0421]

He definitely seems to believe in Judaism but exactly what, is unsure.

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

@@coolguy0421 I've watched this non-debate many times since discovering it in 2021, and I've come to believe that Mr. Baker was merely parroting arguments, jargon, and turns of phrase he'd heard from others, and has very little comprehension of what he's repeating. None of his main arguments made much sense, he demonstrated no understanding of basic Christian doctrines, no grasp of Church History, no evidence of listening to Christian responses to counter-missionaries, he struggled with categories, and he had no understanding of White's arguments. I hear lots of emotion but very little reason on Baker's part. I'm really disappointed with the anti-mormon apologists who took somebody like Baker and thrust him into the limelight. He's clearly not cut out to be a spokesman for anybody. I have to wonder what his counterterrorism career was like, because he doesn't seem to be much of a critical thinker. I'm also pretty negatively disposed towards the Jewish counter-missionaries who took somebody who'd been religiously abused by a cult, somebody who seems to be rather gullible, and caused him all this confusion and strife.

[@gabrielvondohlen4755]

“You bought the cheap one, and Christianity is wrong because of that!?” 😂😂😂

[@КлюевСергей-э5с]

It’s like boxing with one opponent swinging hard and wide and the other just hitting jabs directly in the first guy’s nose.

[@8thdayadventist911]

Wow. Baker literally said like 30 lies during his closing statement. He is beyond ignorant.

[@Biblecia]

Well done, Dr. White. Debates like this demonstrate the clear reliability of our Bible!

[@scottcamp9266]

This guy doesn’t need a debate partner; he needs a therapist😔🙏

[@uwekonnigsstaddt524]

Scott Camp ...and repentance and lots of prayers.

[@isaacleillhikar4566]

Dont say that. Psycho'... are pseudo-sciences.

[@Converterguy]

Citing William Craig wasn't his best move. He's a philosopher, who believes in evolution and is constantly changing how he approaches God's word to align with secular science.

[@christinarzendzian6072]

How about 2 Kings 22? They had lost an entire book of the Old Testament law for a time. Baker has to understand preservation of the truth vs intentional manipulation. My heart breaks for his unbelief and that he gave up hope before getting an answer to his questions. We need to teach these things more so that our generation is not left questioning like Mr. Baker.

[@ENPIus]

That cross-examination was painful

[@yoshi_2514]

It is absolutely reliable because just like the time the New Testament was being written, we are living in the church age. Except we are at the end of that age. It gives us clear directions on how to live as a Christian and how to prepare for Jesus's arrival.

[@kainable8769]

I strongly agree with your first statement. However, I do not believe we are anywhere near the end of the age you speak of... for which I am assuming you are means Jesus’ second coming.

[@yoshi_2514]

Then what is the other age?

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

Every single generation of Christians, from the time of the Apostolic Church unto this very day, has been sure that the end is nigh. So far, we've been totally wrong 100% of the time. We're no more special than our progenitors in the Faith, nor is this time any more or less special than the times they lived in. We're commanded to live as if the second coming were imminent, but we must not speculate about when that might be. If God wanted us to know that, he would've told us plainly in the Scriptures.

[@stephenbrett2028]

Pray for Lee. We don't need to criticize his confusion or anger. He is searching for something. God has a plan for him. Let's pray God's plan for him is salvation.

[@JesusismyGOD]

Searching??? He is knee deep in unbelief which can not save. Unbelief is a choice.

[@stephenbrett2028]

@@JesusismyGOD a comment 4 years later really doesn't do much.

[@paulc728]

“Can you explain it to my like I’m 5” -baker

[@scottchi666]

Lees sarcasm shows his frustration. Hes been burned it seems more than once...i feel sorry for him hope he finds peace

[@joannaflowers5563]

His pride makes him look like an idiot.

[@tommysimpson807]

great debate. for some reason, the moderator looking clueless the whole time was cracking me up :D

[@AyWoe]

He gets so red when the tension builds.

[@FredHenry1850]

I pray that no one is lead astray by Mr. Baker's ardent skepticism. There is a self-authenticating nature to the Holy Scriptures. The sheep of Jesus will hear his voice. Anyone who can't hear God's voice in the New Testament is not a child of God. I pray for Mr. Baker's salvation.

[@jwalkermtnr]

Mr. Baker could not answer who the writer of Chronicles was, yet refused to acknowledge it was similar to not knowing the author of Hebrews.

[@CAT3616G]

What’s Lee gonna be next year, Buddhist?

[@uwekonnigsstaddt524]

Jon ....before he’d be a Carl SaganIST...

[@uwekonnigsstaddt524]

If this guy worked for the NSA........ 🤦‍♂️

[@Patmosentertainment]

I applaud the person who is willing to grow and be open to being wrong. James White has a business to run, that’s not gonna happen with him.

[@stefanungureanu3809]

Jon 🤣

[@junparas9440]

LMAO! He is gonna be an atheist, at least I think so!

[@euangelionradio4207]

Dr. White saying “excuse me???” to the moderator had me sitting up straight

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

Dr. White said that to Mr. Baker because Mr. Baker very rudely interrupted him by loudly calling 'time!'. Jason Wallace only got involved after White reacted.

[@adrftgvvbh]

I usually fast forward the opponent's Dr. White debates, because I start feeling bad for the individual having to go up against Dr White. Especially a newbie, my heart breaks for them Lol

[@THEREALDATALORD]

I learned this content semester 1 of Bible College.

[@BossHossStudios]

Mr baker is not understanding that at the start of the first century ALL the Jews knew to be looking for the messiah because of Daniel 9. THAT is why there were so many false messiahs. Why was everyone looking for the messiah then? Because it was prophesied to happen then. My questions IF it wasn’t Jesus who else could it have possibly been? He had to have come before the destruction of the second temple. Who besides Christ could have been the messiah?!

[@witforjesus]

Yes, even rabbi Rashi said the 70 weeks of Daniel were supposed to end by the time of Jerusalem's destruction, but neither Lee's current rabbi nor Rashi can point to who that Messiah really was. So Lee's current rabbi tries to say that this prophecy will be fulfilled with the future temple (3rd temple). Really? Their Messiah is supposed to reign forever and bring "peace on the earth" and he's going to let an "abomination of desolation" occur in the future "perfect" temple? Lee, your rabbi really expects you and all of us to believe that line? Seriously? Again, who is your "Messiah" that fulfills Daniel 9? No rabbi can answer that question. Maybe that should be in Lee Baker's next set of "unanswered" questions that he originally created for his Stake President when he left Mormonism. This one can be saved for his next set of unanswered questions when he leaves the "fake" version of Judaism he is currently embracing.

[@uwekonnigsstaddt524]

witforjesus ....before Baker leaves Judaism for....Carl SaganISM?. When Dr. White asked for a Bible, he sure perked my attention. I knew he was into something, tryin to make sense of Baker’s...nonsense. When he opened that Bible between the OT and the NT, he showed that SPACE.....before the NT was written. That SPACE in time is when God revealed the fulfillment of the Messiah. I never made that observation...until Dr. White did. Learned something that was right on front of me, all of this time, and it took someone else to show it. The NT completes the canon of Scripture (Genesis - Revelation). Baker (or anyone) that refuses to accept the irrefutable fact that the NT is the culmination of all Holy Scripture, would’ve also rejected the OT as the inspired Word of God, thus revealing the true intention of the human heart (Romans 1,2, 3).

[@BossHossStudios]

Marcus Freebody history disproves this

[@BossHossStudios]

Marcus Freebody The Historical Jesus existed. Even Josephus the Jewish historian and Pliny the elder wrote about Jesus. You need to actually dig in and study. You are angry at god for some reason

Boss_Hoss _Cigars and some believe the writings of Josephus were altered by those who created Christianity.

[@8thdayadventist911]

If Baker really wanted to know the truth, then he would have spoken to Dr.White or another educated Christian scholar that knows a lot about the Bible privately, instead of making himself look like a fool in front of thousands of people. It's Baker's fault for getting roasted up so bad. He was asking for it:)

[@briansumner6801]

Daniel 9, is a messianic scripture of the 70 weeks. JESUS arrived in Jerusalem weeping and said “if only you had known.”

[@witforjesus]

Yep and even the Jewish rabbi Rashi applied the completion of 70 weeks to the destruction of Jerusalem. So much for the rabbis not "knowing" the Daniel 9 prophecy either!

[@jameshayes211]

This debate affords us, in Lee Baker, a case study in pitiable blindness to one's own incompetence. It's heartbreaking to see someone so disoriented, confused, and lost in a cloud of whirling emotions, arrogance, and ignorance.

[@nathanielreed4381]

James White is a precious gracious Brother! One of my role models thanks Dr.White…

[@zchilli0808]

Second thought, who is responsible for giving this man credentials to be an evangelical church leader? I am a young believer and am blown away at his misunderstanding of the ancient gospel and lack of church history knowledge.

[@dand4485]

I thought at one point of the debate, Dr. White started asking probing questions about what Mr. Bakeer know and at least to his credit Mr. Baker didn't try to answer and came back and said "I don't know...". Only problem is the questions were simple basic points on the subject being discussed... Seems like after Dr. White asked the questions Mr Baker was like "Okay you'll explain it to me now...?"

[@zchilli0808]

@@dand4485 It was hard to swallow. I actually feel bad for the guy. I remember when I learned that my Bible had some textual variations, it rocked my world. But, I also was not a pastor....

[@dand4485]

@@zchilli0808 I can agree with finding out stuff was added and altered, sure we all feel surprised about that, but the problem with Mr. Baker he hasn't studied or educated himself on the issue at hand but yet complains. If Mr. Baker spent some time researching it, think he would find translations which don't contain it, or for that matter read the Bible text itself and see they all usually call out the issue, so his ranting really does seem out of line... In the end it seems he was more annoyed they weren't the cheap version for those poor people in Africa... Then again why send English Bibles to Africa...? Hmmm????

[@witforjesus]

You'll be even more blown away if you watch my video review of this debate where you will see the book Lee and I wrote together that discussed some of the textual variants that he told Dr. White he didn't know about. He knew a LOT more when he served as an elder in the 3 churches he worked in during the time that he volunteered with our ministry and he taught a course on how we can know we can trust the Bible. He has chosen to "forget" everything he learned through the many pastors who worked with him in ministry. That's why he looks ignorant in this debate. It's an ignorance by choice. - kzbin.info/www/bejne/nnKbo4eFdtSNga8

[@gregorytremain4086]

It almost feels like Lee was placed in prominence due to his testimony of coming out of Mormonism and not for his understanding of scripture. He forgot that Paul encourages believers to study. Be a Borean. Have ye not read... All I hear from Lee is I’m too lazy to study, I knew about the textual variations back in my teens when I saw the footnotes in my bible. We are not being lied to.

[@josephsummers1148]

James White did an amazing job. 👏👏👏

[@coolandrew951]

-This guy has just been demolished by Dr James White- Press F to pay respects

[@pastoraris1001]

N/A “F”

[@mattosamanandesu]

F

[@mancaveedc7596]

Bob Smith - but Mary is not the queen of Heaven, nor intercedes for saints, nor hears our prayers. I was Catholic 33 years. It is a false tradition based apostate religion.

[@mancaveedc7596]

Bob Smith- i don’t subscribe to James White Calvinistic doctrine. I believe in free will. But, to answer your question of WHY can’t Mary intercede for us? Because scripture says there is ONE mediator: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬ Alive saints (believers) can intercede. Dead saints (Mary, Peter, etc) cannot because scripture says they cannot. The living saints intercede by praying to God through Jesus. Always through Jesus.

[@mancaveedc7596]

Bob Smith- as far as giving you the myriad of reasons why i left Catholicism, i would be more than happy to give you. They are all scripturally based. I enjoy Dr White’s debates, but he has a fatal flaw in Calvinism mixed with using corrupt modern versions like ESV. Let me know if you want an email. God bless in Jesus name.

[@thenkdshorts9485]

I score that a first-round TKO. Poor guy. It's getting hard to find opponents for Dr. W.

[@timsharpe6652]

He is very smart , researched , and skilled and crafted in what he does. Not too many can compete on his level

[@uwekonnigsstaddt524]

Not only pray for Baker’s salvation, but for White’s protection. The enemy doesn’t like skilled, dedicated defenders of the Faith (Jude 1:3)

[@brendanwright8415]

Uwe Könnigsstaddt I was thinking the same exact thing about dr white.

[@THEREALDATALORD]

Well done Dr. James White. Clear and concise exposition and apologetic.

[@maryloulongenbaugh7069]

I have a love for how James White thinks. The best of all balances-scholarly yet a child-like faith.

[@Bibliotechno]

Brilliant how it ends with "we'll be singing Psalm 2 and 110 tomorrow"

[@tonyt5609]

Lee Baker is not the only one to experience this kind of awakening. It's not just from leaving the Mormon church, I would suspect its the same leaving Jehovah's Witnesses. I felt a similar way leaving Iglesia Ni Cristo. Unfortunately, once you've been lied to about something you have put your entire soul into it can be crippling to discover the truth. It takes time and prayer to come to Christ openly without all the old baggage. He can overcome the doubt and hurt he's feeling but right now he really needs to sit down and shut up and listen to teachers who have a heart and the love of Christ in them.

[@CarpentersMinistry1]

This was literal use of "test the scriptures" I liked it, it was informative

[@scottchi666]

I think Lees problem is thinking God just dropped His Word in a bound form straight from heaven like Muhammed and Joseph Smith. This is how God has used infallible people to preserve His Word

[@Stanzi18]

I sincerely hope that Mr Baker actually watches this again and fact checks everything.

[@witforjesus]

@@blockpartyvintage1568 Yep, Lee is stubborn. I just learned that as soon as he got back home, he recontacted his former church and DEMANDED that they give him a debate opportunity. Apparently, his debate with Dr. White wasn't good enough for his ego, so he had to pester his former pastors for another debate until they completely cut off all communication with him last month. Very sad indeed!

[@luismachica]

@@witforjesus Oh. Eso es tan malo. Sólo sentía grinje por ese hombre

[@jameshayes211]

He evidently doesn't know how to fact-check.

[@Tony_4_Chiliasm]

Mr Baker professes an argument from ignorance. He flat out says "I don't have time to read stuff, so therefore it's not true." That has to be the silliest argument I've ever heard. It's seriously hard to even listen to this man without banging my head against a wall. Dr. White exhibits so much patience and grace with this man. May God open Mr Baker's eyes to His truth.

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

Elsewhere in the comments section here, somebody said that he respected Mr. Baker taking on somebody like Dr. White. I replied that there's nothing respectable about ignorance and impetuousness. This Baker fella is confused and angry, a bit like that stock character in TV and movie productions set in an American high school. He's the jock that gets angry when he doesn't understand what the class nerd has tried to tell him. No, nothing respectable in that. All throughout this non-debate, Baker says a lot of nonsensical things, like that line about the elders of his church watching the debate and if they're satisfied, he won't have to debate anybody again. I don't understand that at all. He repeats a lot of things he clearly has no comprehension of. He completely misunderstood key parts of White's presentation, like the difference between a free and a controlled transmission of text. This was very, very rough.

[@scottchi666]

Ive read everything Dr White has written and especially suggest the potters freedom and the congealment of jamss and paul conscerning works and faith in the forgotten trinity. His scholarship is written that academics and laypeople alike can read and understand his stuff. God bless Dr White and Mr Baker

[@matthewshelton1975]

Mr. Baker seems to be overthinking his objections. They are meaningful objections, but there are answers to all of them which Dr. White and others such as Mark Winger have dealt with. Baker's conclusion seems to be that because these objections even exist at all, and his ideas of what divine revelation "ought to" look like don't match reality, that that is enough to let his doubts overrule what he has actually read and heard. I would argue that the uncontrolled transmission of the NT and all of the textual variants is a strength and not a weakness.

[@lcwalker2920]

I met Lee at a Manti missions trip. At the time thinking he was quite odd. There he was, white shirt, black nametag, and an oversized Book of Mormon, standing on a step ladder and challenging Mormons. They were standing around, probably more curious about him than anything else. As I was standing there I noticed he was challenging people to interact with him. Frankly, I wouldn't either. After the was done, I went over and tried to talk with him. He seemed amiable enough but dominated the conversation. I think one of the concerns I have with touting the people who leave Mormonism too soon after is that they've not had time to settle down, emotionally, mentally, or spiritually. I've seen it in other areas. For example, when John Paulk and his wife, Anne, left the gay life (she being lesbian, him having been a drag queen) they were put on just about every talk show there was and touted as an ex-gay success story. They went on to have two boys. I met John when he came to Dallas to do a talk show. I was on the show to talk about the military and potential issues (I was a former Ombudsman with the Navy). I took him to what was then the largest gay church in Dallas. He was very uncomfortable and cried when we left, evidently heartbroken at what he saw. When a drag queen ran past us on the street, he turned his head and leered at him. "She's nice looking!" He said, as if proud that he was now leering at women and seemed shocked when I told him: "John, that was a drag queen". FoF, FRC and AFA all put him on a pedestal. Far too quickly. In 2000, Paul walked into a known gay bar in DC and was spotted and outed. He lied about why he went there which only made things worse and eventually was forced to step down from his spokesman position with Focus on the Family. A few years later I contacted John via social media. He was not very welcoming of the contact. Not that I pointed fingers, I guess I was just a memory of a past he wanted to forget. Why do we put people on pedestals to begin with? For one thing, it seems to me especially dangerous to seek out "big fish". You'll find there are more of us who went on with the real Jesus that were never heard of and never intended to be heard of. I prefer the background. I like researching and writing more. I like my life quiet. Though once you've had a fatwa levied on you, well, your life somewhat changes lol. I think people who leave any false religion and turn to Christ should go through Paul Training, where they have to wait before they can go out and represent Christ. Wait, be taught and be tested.

[@matthaddershow]

Wpw...well written and well thought out. I've seen this too. Big fish syndrome. A celebrity gets saved and suddenly they are on every talk show yet they haven't been tested. Their fruits have not been observed. I get it though. When we have a transformation, suddenly we want everyone to know, when what we need is grounding and a dose of humility and time of study.

[@DonVicenteLIVE]

I appreciate that Dr White sticks to the issue.

[@jrc99us]

58:56 this is where Lee Baker wholly lost the debate. That emotional pettiness of calling "Time," when he never brought anything to the debate other than his own anger against God for some reason? He has truly taken on the fallacious position of the New Atheist movement is that, "If there are questions, it cannot be real." That man needs Christ before it's too late!

[@nicoarnold2200]

Praying for the Baker family.

[@Open2Reason]

Mormonism is such a destructive heresy, that one can still be under it's control even when one leaves the cult. Case in point in this video.

[@matthewikeda9969]

This was embarrassing. "Will listen twice as hard as I debate." I snickered a bit when I heard that in his opening statement and knew that was gonna be completely false.

[@KeptForJesus]

The trinity indeed is hard to grasp, especially in the beginning.

[@mjojco]

"How could God have done it better?!" 😁 My goodness but the moment you utter something like this as a professed believer the discussion is over.

[@BeccainHawaii]

It is in the old testament. The story of Abraham and his son, is a representation of what was to happen. Instead of man dying for his sin, God would provide the perfect lamb to die for our sins.

[@camilotorres8262]

I love how he keeps on saying you are the expert... yet I know more than you! The 🤦‍♂️

[@camilotorres8262]

@JESUS CHRIST is King of Kings you are right... I pray Jesus calls him and gives him truth.... I believe maybe him coming from Mormonism to christianity and then it seems he might try to convert to Judaism, might have him in a works based mentality and has yet to realize he cannot reach righteousness on his own.

[@alanweinstein8625]

@@camilotorres8262 He was introduced to converting to Noahide. Check out Noahide Laws and beheading.

[@ElficGuy]

I feel terrible, he sounds like a very angry and hearthardened guy...

[@tamu015]

See 1:32:00 for why mr. Baker is confused. Dr. White nails it. Baker is applying his understanding of the Book of Mormon to the Bible. He doesn’t understand the process of textual criticism influenced by newly found manuscripts compared to the Temple updating the BOM.

[@HeLivesForever25]

A summary of Lee Baker's position: I wasn't taught about the variations in church, therefore no one in history has ever known about these things. He continuously asserts that anything he once believed about the bible everyone else believes still. His view is that everyone is at the back of the bus with him.

[@loraisebandes6730]

Very good and so anointed defense Dr. White

[@jello1847]

Dr James white crushed this debate also, i almost feel bad for him as both of his most recent debates have been against people who just get angry and stop debating

[@nilo1960220]

Baker is an amateur, I am amazed White took time to debate, knowing fully well Baker is no match. That is a lot of patience from Dr. White. My admiration.

[@joannaflowers5563]

That's exactly what I was thinking. Dr. White's patience is incredible.

[@MyLifeShortFilms]

Outstanding! I always learn from your videos and debates! PRAISE BE TO JESUS THE ONLY ONE, THE MESSIAH

[@pcbc731]

His complete rejection of the gospel of grace forgiveness is sins is telling... example of unbelief ...

[@scottchi666]

I shouldve waited till the end. Lee has not been born again, after being born from above itll make sense Lee

[@christianhernandez4117]

This is like debating a Kindergarten student; a blatant form of ignorance to justify unbelief....we need to pray for sound mind! The scars of Mormon bondage are deep in his heart.

[@edwardcoss6574]

I recommend Dr. White's debate with Bart Ehrman on the reliability of the New Testament. I was genuinely surprised at how easily Mr. White defended his position and how he poked holes in Ehrman's position; considering Ehrman's status in academic circles.

[@roytaylor7889]

This should never have been a debate. This should have been Baker asking for White to teach him on some basic understandings, allowing Baker to work thru his questions, etc. and then make a decision after getting all answers he desired. Making it a debate was detrimental.

[@Mikedwalker]

This breaks my heart for Lee Baker. I hope he’s less confused now. It seems like his mind has been twisted and tainted by Mormonism.

[@benjaminhowell4427]

james white seems to have the task of debating this fellow and teaching him how to debate at the same time. lol

[@robertbrown7470]

Other than being the most reliable book or set of books ever written, I guess the answer in the alternate universe would be no.

[@danceslob6211]

Is this guy a Noahide? I've debated several Noahides and he sounds just like one. They are extremely narrow minded in their understanding of the Old Testament, historically and theologically illiterate, and obsess over the "Chosen Ones" and Israel.

[@spiderwebbz3356]

This has been the most lopsided textual debate. James White absolutely wiped the floor with him! Praying that the guy on the negative side comes to the Knowledge of the Truth.

[@Sdothull]

58:55 The power of James White was nearly unleashed 👀

[@russellwaldie1962]

Love Dr. White!!