🟥Debate: Michael Light (Christian) Vs Jmike (Atheist); Christianity Vs Atheism

[@AlecJulien]

Theist: "The text is inerrant. Except for the errancies. But it's important to understand why it's errant. Because that makes it inerrant."

[@acason4]

🤦🏼‍♂️

[@veganatheistandmore]

So once the theist was cornered for the millionth time, he just pulled out the "who are we to question god"? shtick...🤦‍♀️🙄

[@Homeoftheclan]

If only the ‘ all powerful ‘ god had been able to write his own book. The most important book ever written should not be open to interpretation or conjecture.

[@macdougdoug]

Sadly twas humans that didst invent pencils and paper

[@davids11131113]

Plus we know most of the Bible is just untrue, pretty weak effort from all-powerful god!

[@j7bsecond540]

Watched you on talk heathen, impressed, now subbed, keep up the good work sir.

[@AxiomsOnTrial]

thank you!!

[@edluckenbill8363]

I think Mike showed more knowledge of the bible then the Christian ✝️ . That is usually the case . Better understanding of greek also .

[@joelrivardguitar]

The Christian said it himself, the gospel authors were not writing facts, they were telling stories. They were merging OT myths with Persian and Hellenistic myths.

[@sumo1203]

In journalism - if there were multiple articles giving varying accounts, we would know they couldn’t all be true. Or were all in complete. We would know something is off and further investigation was needed.

[@blakelandry]

Every answer to why there are differences is just word salad and dancing around making excuses...theists jump through hoops to make things work in their favor.

[@ENIGMA3.14]

Kid stayed true and logical.

[@justinabajian1087]

I used to be such a theist. I never engaged honestly with atheists. I knew I was right. I knew they were wrong. Since I knew the Bible was the word of god, it had to work. There were things that seemed like obvious contradictions, but those had to just be misunderstandings and context explainable difficulties, since it had to all work out, since it’s the word of god after all. Old Testament slaughtering of people, condoning slavery, sexual slavery. Those things seemed really bad, but since it’s the word of god, I just knew it had to make sense. I got into apologetics because I knew the Bible was the word of god and good and true, I just needed to figure out the answers so I could defend it agains skeptics. Once I realized peters denial 3 times was told more than 3 ways, it meant not every word in the Bible can be trusted. I still very much believed, just that you have to understand textual and form criticism to be able to properly understand the Bible. Little did I know that was the beginning of the end of my faith.

[@joe5959]

​@@justinabajian1087so multiple interpretations = not reliable? So a poor understanding of the text led to leaving? Really?

[@justinabajian1087]

@@joe5959 it was the beginning of the end. I was fine with it actually, at the time. Not every word of the Bible was true. Kind of like how not every perspective in a car accident is true. Some might get it right, others wrong. I was fine with additions such as the end of Mark, the woman at the well story. Contradicting accounts of the same event. It just meant I had to think of the Bible differently. I had to lose my notion of inerrancy. This is one little piece of my changing worldview that led to me no longer believing.

[@davids11131113]

Just saw you body that clown Darth Dorkins on Canadian Catholics silly livestream man that was great Jmike! Had him stuttering and slurring 🤣

[@matthewsocoollike]

Very interesting and respectful debate. Enjoyed it

[@iconifyme]

Michael's argument seems to be "The text is inerrant, but when it says 'They told nobody' it doesn't really mean nobody". Well if you can just insert your own interpretation and words don't really mean what they say then how could it possibly be inerrant if you can just assert your own meaning to fit whatever the statement is?

[@vdub2014]

Dude... Jmike. I really enjoy watching/listening to you talk man, it's great and really well articulated.

[@peterw1642]

"Yeah man, I got a document somewhere with Bible contradictions in it, but I can't find it."

[@paulrawlinson8653]

That was pretty painful. Michael (Light) had to perform such mental and semantic gymnadtics to arrive at his preferred interpretations that it was difficult to take it seriously

[@solsikkeridderuhyre5172]

Continually falling back on the Argumentum Ad Populum without even realizing why it's fallacious is extremely sad. If I tell you that 1000 people I know claim with confidence that the Sky is actually green, does that make it true, even though that contradicts direct obsevation?

[@queenkalikakhonsu4126]

Just because someone dies for what they believe or is persecuted for what they believe does not make any claim true. At the very least we would first need to evaluate and assess their mental state in edition to other ways to validate a claim. Didn't many people die for false claims all the time throughout history?

[@AxiomsOnTrial]

exactly. christians don’t understand that there’s nothing unique about their story

[@joe5959]

​@@AxiomsOnTrialAtheists who say this are generally illiterate

[@zonda1968]

If you have two stories about the Titanic. One says it sank off the coast of Newfound land. The other story says it arrived in New York. Both accounts can’t be true. Then we have a another story that the Titanic was lost in Burmuda triangle. All three stores can be true.

[@johnzeimetz6983]

"Well I think it's very important to understand..." And the greased pig slips away again!

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

As soon as someone calls something "inerrant", I am immediately certain that they are not prepared for critical examination. One cannot be simultaneously honest and correct while calling something like scripture "inerrant". Even setting aside the specific content here, you're not going to have a compilation of many stories by multiple authors over time, compiled by many people even later, with an agenda, it's easy to say they can't possibly be perfectly correct and consistent. Then you look at the bible and what it actually says, and well, It's wrong in the first verse 🤷

[@thatguy5342]

What? I don’t understand your argument you’re saying that the authors of the Bible have different purposes, lifestyle, and education? What does that have to do with anything

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

@@thatguy5342 1. It's preposterous to call the bible inerrant. 2. This makes sense, being written by many people over time, who have different views and agendas. I was just stating the obvious.

[@thatguy5342]

@@IllustriousCrocoduck under your presuppositions of God not existing, maybe. What does writing in a different time and place have to do writing within a continuity. All of the Bible fits within the narrative of the general theme of God’s relationship with humanity and his plan to ultimately redeem it.

[@IllustriousCrocoduck]

@@thatguy5342 don't assume. I didn't say anything about continuity. The authors would be idiots if they didn't maintain some themes. It's just not interesting or important.

[@thatguy5342]

@@IllustriousCrocoduck so if there is continuity between writers of different times and places where is the problem

[@zonaut8251]

Special pleading, nothing more, nothing less. I'm sorry but I think he doesn't even realize it.

[@susiedawson3349]

Jmike went easy on this young man and worked to teach him about fallacies.

[@solsikkeridderuhyre5172]

Seeing the look on his face as well when he sees that Almah doesn't mean Virgin is pretty entertaining.

[@Droidruid1993]

I don't blame Michael, if someone as hot as Jmike was talking to me I too would have trouble focusing

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

thought i was the only one who thought JMIKE was hot AF... and I think the guy on the left thought so too ;D

[@truthovertea]

Christianity vs Atheism is a strange title, I am only 25 min in but it seems this debate is more about whether the Bible is a trustworthy document or not.

[@aaronlietz]

Even when I was a Christian apologist I never understood the argument "It's distinct (aka different) therefore it's more credible". Huh? That would be like saying that Harry Potter is distinct from Lord of the Rings and therefore it is more likely to be true. The writings about Apollonius of Tiana are "distinct" from other writings but that doesn't tell us anything about whether or not they are true. It's such a weak argument.

[@choopsk6734]

the mikes did a great talk. I learned a few things and both did really well.

[@edluckenbill8363]

This guy is slide stepping big time

[@johnzeimetz6983]

Greased Pig comes to mind. I cant see how any ground can be made unless Michael is walked with small steps, and is reminded to throw out the bad arguments he concedes.

[@porkyboy4226]

The way Michael has tried to explain his way out of this just shows that the gospels were written by men with no god involved then!

[@tomroyca]

I wonder what happened to this kid since that debate.

[@atheistskeptic8748]

Just started watching JMimke's debates. I honestly don't know why he took this debate though. The theist has nothing fruitful to bring to the conversation and didn't do anything to challenge any position, he failed to argue his own position coherently.

[@irielion3748]

Because Jmike cares about the truth - and if he can get through to this guy and 'save' him, Jmike would debate him. Simple really. And the wider community also watch this too. Jmike gives it to the masses. People who care about the truth do that.

[@atheistskeptic8748]

@@irielion3748 well I would say Frank Turek gives his material to the masses but doesn't really care much about truth, so I don't know if giving your work to the masses shows you care about truth more so then just getting your work to the masses. I agree with a lot of what JMike says and we hold common ground in a lot of areas. Debates however should be 2 people challenging each other not one person giving a lesson. Not once was Jmike ever put in a situation where he had to actually defend his points against a good counter argument or shown where he might have thought incorrectly about something. I don't know why you would take a debate if it's not going to force you to truly defend your position. I think it's less helpful to debate someone who can't challenge your position. It's like a heavyweight taking a fight against a fly weight and then happy about the knockout victory, can you really call it a win?

[@edvardm4348]

Funny idea Bit tongue in cheek I might claim programming does good for one's epistemology. It tends to make one humble, because so often something you are certain should work and it doesn't, and once you understand why it didn't you feel how big a fool you were thinking it must work. And this repeats hundreds of times, thousands even.. and it teaches you that systematic methods beat intuition every single time. (this is my obfuscated, long winded way of saying how much I respect / admire Jmike. Hope he's a Rustacean or Haskellian! ;)

[@johnzeimetz6983]

Jmike way way too soft in my opinion. He should have just bbq'd him starting with - Step 1) "define inerrant". 2) Do we have the manuscripts to reference that you refer to as inerrant? 3) If we do have the manuscripts you refer to as inerrant expose the glaring conflicts using his own definition. 4) If we don't have the original manuscripts he refers to as inerrant then what the hell are we debating? God has failed miserably and you just decided to make shit up from something you have zero evidence exists.

[@beyondu77]

Odd. I thought the Bible was the inspired word of God. If that's the case, then how can Mike claim that different people wrote things in the Bible differently. Was the book inspired by God or not?

[@thatguy5342]

Because people have different backgrounds and lived in different timelines I don’t understand your point. Inspiration means that the message their conveying in true doesn’t mean everything is literally true.

[@beyondu77]

@@thatguy5342 If you claim a book was given to a group of people by God, then it shouldn't matter who was writing it or where they were from, because I believe the Christian belief is that God doesn't make mistakes, even though that's total BS, proven by their holy book.

[@thatguy5342]

@@beyondu77 no Christian claims that it was given by God that’s what Muslims believe. Christians believe that is that’s it’s inspired, but the people still write the words in a way befitting someone of their lifestyle(kinda)

[@thatguy5342]

@@beyondu77 depends on what you mean by mistakes.

[@hannotn]

My atheism is simple to the point of being simplistic. Debate is fun and it's good to see a friendly battle of ideas and interpretations, but much as I might enjoy it, I also see it as essentially pointless. My atheism begins and ends with what I see as an absolute dearth of any evidence of a god, or any supernatural activity. Beyond that, discussions about whether we need god in order to be moral beings, etc, are fun, but have no educational purpose. I see theology as being the single most self-indulgently futile pursuit human beings have ever engaged in. I'm very sceptical that anyone could tell me of a single outcome of theological pondering that's led to an improvement in the living conditions of humankind.

[@MrMattSax]

The errors in the Bible have a special “inerrant” quality to them.

[@ronlouis3550]

This Christian has videos on his channel that have 40 views. Seriously?

[@johnzeimetz6983]

It's both sad and painful to watch young indoctrinated people do these verbal acrobatics to justify horrible arguments. It’s awesome Michael took on a formal public debate but he seems to think his responses to Jmike’s arguments are actually good.

[@nmkloster]

This didn't feel like a debate and I'm happy with that. It was more of a conversation. I think JMike proved his view well but MiLight has a few good points that JMike also acknowledged.

[@tomroyca]

39:55 that what Jews do with the Mt. Sinai revelation. The story says that 1 million Jews experienced god

[@psychedelicwhiskers960]

Feel sorry for this young man. He is so obviously indoctrinated into Christianity that his ability to use logic is broken. He can't allow his mind to understand even the most simple of arguments. Unfortunately, this has a high likelihood of bleeding into his life in many other ways in years to come.

[@porkyboy4226]

When you've drunk all your pastors koolaid!!

[@MooncubedesignAu]

Sad that it ended just as it was heating up... but good talk... didn't convince me in anyway that Christianity is worth looking into but maybe that will happen next time?

[@MooncubedesignAu]

He thinks it's important to understand (fill in the blank)

[@edluckenbill8363]

This kid has no clue what he is talking about. Getting a education by Mike .

[@campakilla1]

I thought the same, a product of a religious upbringing... seems like a nice lad though, just need to learn to be more skeptical !

[@Lord.1337-7]

This kid is just as prepared as any theist on AXP lol.

[@edvardm4348]

Come on, be fair. I disagree with the "kid" and am as militant atheist as any, but this was much better discussion than average AXP call. There were no "but look at the trees!" stuff or "but babies get to heaven if God kills them" or other insane stuff like that.

[@justinabajian1087]

I used to think just like the Christian guy. I know god is real. I know Jesus is real. I know the Bible is the inerrant word of god. So anything an atheist says, I won’t actually consider with an open mind, I will just do my best to make the gospels harmonize. Yes, they don’t agree in many points, but hey, I know this is the word of god, so they must agree. I just have to figure out how.

[@joe5959]

So now youve embraced your reddit atheism?

[@SendaLove-od3gz]

Go Jmike!!!!!❤

[@swedensy]

Well thats one hell of a mess te be calling it a word of god.

[@stevedraeger1502]

Wow, after JMikes brilliant into, the tap dancing begins.

[@macdougdoug]

Reincarnation was just an annoyance for Sathya Sai Baba - Hindus do it all the time.

[@abbyvalkyrie]

😂😂😂😂

[@drg8687]

The theist's arguments are so pathetic.

[@darrenleelayton6052]

Poor kid.

[@porkyboy4226]

So the bible is the inerrant word of god Apart from the bits where it isn't!😂

[@robhaskins]

suspicious sibilants

[@RafaelGarcia-jb3me]

Atheist got smoked lmao not even close

[@AxiomsOnTrial]

false

[@quranchannel5090]

Jesus is a great Prophet of God and I love him so much but he never claimed to be God

[@AxiomsOnTrial]

much of the bible seems to suggest he was god in human form.

[@AxiomsOnTrial]

not that i actually believe any of that to be true. just saying that is the christian belief

[@quranchannel5090]

@@AxiomsOnTrial Not all Christians believe that and we know that the bible has changed a lot, people kept changing it, Jesus was a messenger of God just like Moses and Muhammad peace be upon them all, God doesn't need to kill himself to forgive us, He is so powerful and he can forgive us easily without anyone dying 🙂

[@arthurunknown8972]

@@quranchannel5090 offee evidence to meet your burden of proof regarding any of these assertions

[@robhaskins]

No evidence forthcoming, I see.

[@Salmonboy5000]

Poor kid.