Debate: Pakistan’s Future is Doomed as Long as its Politics Remains Wedded with Religion

Pakistan was created with a vision to be both a nation inspired by faith and a modern democratic state, guided by public will. This blend of faith and politics has led to diverse perspectives. Some argue that mixing religion with politics can be exploited for personal gains, while others believe that a religious framework provides essential guidance for political decisions. To explore these viewpoints, we present a critical debate.
● This debate is held in collaboration with Raaye Saazi - an initiative that aims to hold critical social, legislative and cultural debates within public settings.
● Proposition
Is Pakistan's future at risk due to the influence of religion on politics? The proposition will argue in favor of keeping religion and politics separate.
» Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy
» Amber Rahim Shamsi
» Waqqas Mir
● Opposition
Can politics without a religious framework lack direction and meaning? The opposition will argue in support of using religion as a guide for political decisions.
» Qibla Ayaz
» Aneeq Ahmed
» Fahad Ali Kazmi

[@vinaydhopeshwarkar4567]

No one uttered a word for atrocities on non Muslim minority like Hindu, Sikhs, Catholics of Pak😂

[@rohand04]

They can't.. as a Christian I am blessed to be born in this side of the borderline..

[@RajeshKumar-uj4qu]

Munafiq hain ye saare.

[@thedoctor.a.s1401]

pervez literally mentioned that in his opening speech.

[@PfefferNusse-vr4yo]

that is a sign that there is no hope for progress for pk, for IN - we are becoming more like PK post-2014.......very dangerous trend

[@karatekid7640]

It's about time we should stop saying the lie that every religion is equal. Sure every religion has problems but equating them is just a logical fallacy...

[@rohand04]

As a Indian Christian I have a simple question for Muslim in Pakistan and India.. if hindurashtra is bad for India and Indian minorities ... How is islamic nation of Pakistan a holy place.. And to Hindu.. if we see the disaster today Pakistan is.. how do you believe a theological country in name of religion a good thing in India

[@donbrad6011]

Indians are thankful to Jinnah. At least that population is not a problem of India any more and it can focus on science,technology and business while Pakistanis fight over religion and sects

[@hassanabdullah6742]

Everything is connected. That is just dumb connotation.

[@saifsamo9750]

There was zero logic from religious side. All I heard was a shouting match & emotional rhetoric from all three of them !!

[@azadprinda3186]

Right

[@subramayamrvr8774]

If Singapore is a prosperous country why Pakistan is a failed state.

[@BhanuPrasad-hp4vm]

Where is 23% Hiindus in 1947 and. 3% now in Pakiistan.

[@fjmrehab]

'With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.'

[@rameshrajs8140]

It looks like they want to give lectures on Islam instead of debating on the Point😂

[@munawarahmadsaeed3914]

Ridiculous. They came to conquer Black Hole and settle scores with Hoodbhoy. Cleric’s team was miserable.

[@rohand04]

45:16 we all know how much muslim respect it's minorities. And how much islamic Republic like Pakistan protect the non Muslims. as a Muslim.. you feel bad when a person burn Qur'an but few months ago a hindu temple was demolished in Karachi Pakistan and a building complex is being made there.. hundreds of Christian home were destroyed ... I have seen Muslim in this comment section justify it why do you need temples in Pakistan.. In 2014 the organization, the All Pakistan Hindu Rights Movement (PHRM), published a survey report. The survey report found that 95% of the temples present in Pakistan since 1990 were destroyed or damaged. Out of the 428 places of worship, only 20 remained operational while 408 temples were converted either into commercial properties or into residential establishments. Out of the 20 temples, 11 were in Sindh, 4 in Punjab, 3 in Balochistan and 2 in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. Babri Masjid demolition in India only hastened the pace of temple demolition across Pakistan and Bangladesh. Around 1,000 temples were alone targeted or destroyed in Pakistan and 2014 PHRM survey findings continue to reflect in 2021 as well. From 20 operational temples in 2014, Pakistan now only has 13 temples managed by ETPB. we all know the love what you give non Muslim specially Christian.. . In 1947 Muslims threatened Christians that Pakistan was made for Muslims only and that if Christians wanted to stay there, they had to live a life of servitude and perform sanitation work.. "Sewer Cleaners Wanted in Pakistan: Only Christians Need Apply." Remember this add by pakistani army in 2020. Guess nothing much change here.. well it's hilarious when we see muslim pointing out isreal about the killing and Palestine or even Rohingaya or kashmir .. While the same won't say a word about the virtual annihilation by killing forced migration of non Muslim community in islamic country.. Where the native population is refused to below 5% in some places below 1% like afghanistan Pakistan Indonesia even all meddle east Have you ever asked why are the population of 31 islamic majority country have 95% + muslim population.. 39 have 88% + Why is it that it is impossible for non Muslim to live in these islamic country.. The Persian left for india.. The Afghanistan lost it Buddhist monastery But how many islamic country condemn the virtual inhalation of sikh from afghanistan who were 6 mn in '71 .. And less than 100 left today.. Or the forced conversion and marriage of hindu and Christian under age girls in Pakistan.. The inhalation of Ahemidia in Pakistan Indonesia and kurdistani mens and thier girls turkey syria Iraq Iran. even with your pride of allhamdulillah there are no non Muslim tribe in Somalia or 97% of Pakistan or More than half the countries in the Middle East-North Africa region have populations that are approximately 95% Muslim or greater. These include Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, Morocco, Palestinian territories, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Western Sahara and Yemen. Kurds have had a long history of discrimination perpetrated against them by the Turkish government. Massacres have periodically occurred against the Kurds since the establishment of the Republic of Turkey in 1923. I'm sorry I still have not heard a single word of condemnation from any muslim.. Just look at only islamic State in India.. Where are the natives The reality is you expect isreal and India and the world to be secularist but you justified a killing because the alleged disrespect of quran in your own Bangladesh. And Pakistan and France While in India Christian we are among the richest religious demographic only second to sikh.. Earning 2 times the national average and have 2 highest education percentage.. Only second to jains.. Guess I am blessed to be born in India not the other side of the borderline

[@smileplease3204]

Pakistani ko debate karte dekh kar lagta hai ki ye alag he duniya ke log hain. Inke saath rahna pade to dum he ghut jayega. Ye hamesha Islam Islam karte hain aur islamic desh me rahna nahin chahte. Jahan jate hain fir vahan Islam nafiz karna chahte hain

[@saeeddeen7304]

Absolutely Right 😊

[@M_R___974]

Well said.

[@6630mandy]

Dr. Hoodbhoy is great 👍 but Amber surprised me with her intelligence, arguments and logic and their third fellow speaker was brilliant whereas opposition was just shouting.

[@R.kandaswamy]

“ If a Religion wants you to give up your freedom, just give up that religion Nothing is holier than your freedom!” -Mehmat Murat Ildan

[@SachinKulkarni-uc5kk]

To Respected Mr. Parvez - Hindu religion is himself secular. It is our culture. It is your wrong concept that Mr. Modi would give a lot of disturbance in Muslim peoples. IT is your 'pakistani thinking' logic. Sachin Kulkarni - Kalyan Maharashtra India

[@freeBalochistan-n7l]

He knows it. He just uses Hindu Rashtra as an immunity to save himself from the opposition as we all know that he will never talk openly about the truth or his life is under threat.

[@nesterem]

What have you done to sikhs/ hindus/ Christians in NApakistan is known to the world... so do not portray urself as " holier than thou"

[@ahmadjamalmughal47]

😂 aren't you the ones who are always accusing Pakistanis "grow up balls and learn to criticize your own country". No country is saint here, and no religion is saint either.

[@falconali5210]

If Pakistan can be a Islamic country than why India can't be a Hindu country.

[@vivekkumarsingh11]

The major difference you will first notice is religious side were mostly shouting

[@AstonishSingh]

Every religion has their flaw, but the most flawed are those which dont evolve and become more humane with time.

[@madhavrekwar3552]

May be in ur religion

[@adrianadam8543]

A secular scientific revolution is inevitable in Pakistan because Pakistanis have eyes, the only question is when will the revolution occur, and how much damage will religious fundamentalism do to our lives, people and country before the revolution.

[@rebasingh258]

Religious problems in India will be reduced considerably if 1. Pakistan becomes secular. 2. Pakistan stops oppressing it Christian, Hindu and Sikh minorities. 3. If Pakistan stops making terrorist attacks against India. Many Indian Govts both Cong and BJP have tried to have dialog and friendship with Pakistan. Everytime this is done the Political leadership of Pak responds positively but the Military leadership stages a fresh terrorist attack in India. It is an unfortunate situation which has defied solution since 1947. The greatest political leaders on both sides attempted to solve this problem but failed. The people on both sides of the border have been bearing the consequences of this problem for so many years.

[@vinsin328]

1. Nope, Pakistan is not responsible for India not being secular. And that is against Two Nation Theory 2. That is unIslamic. And they are free to move to India. 3. Again that is against Islam. The Kashmir problem was created by India, not Pakistan.

[@appuss1]

If the problem is solved then the military spending will be cut by ~80%😂

[@HamidByte]

Second speaker quoting Quran again and again in a professional debate that Islam should be implemented in an Islamic Republic country wearing Israel's colored Shirt and Tie (White and Blue) and with mustache without beard and without head cover.

[@dineshchandel350]

A maulavi in a western attire what a joke! Hearing his sermons was mind blowing. Pakistan needs more of such kind of minds to take it more to the medieval times for that matter 1400 years back.😮

[@Javvid-ipynb]

brilliant arguments from amber, Hoodbhoy and their third fellow speaker. while sheer form of rhetoric, emotional speeches and last but not the least circular reasoning from opposing speakers. Long live Rationality

[@kapilmohansharma6135]

Rationality has not place in Pakistan

[@cedarcanyon1]

I am an Indian expat who is a Pakistani well wisher but I can firmly say that the likes of Hoodboy are fighting a losing battle. Pakistani has not future - sorry sad

[@binukj7970]

No hope for Pakistan

[@_blaze_22]

Cannot express my respect for the people sitting in this room, majority of them rejected mullaizm.. A positive sign for Pakistan...

[@ashalivarma4623]

No hope for Pak

[@CommunityMedicine2024]

🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳 that supreme court lawyer spoke well👍

[@fishfordish]

Ridiculous arguments from religious side. If you can't practice islamic doctrine (even if it is ideal), you need rigorous reforms.

[@nesterem]

Bhaghwan RAM accha hua yeh log humse alag ho gaye... nahi tau kayamat aa jati bharat mein

[@NeiileshManjrekar]

Religion with shouting is not religion ...and reality is different in pakistan

[@monikasharma7893]

Ye vo log hai jo Mughal Turk Arab k invaders ko apna Hero mante Hain 🙏😡

[@tirichmirinfotainmenttv6482]

The debate could have been even better if Dr Taimur Rehman had been on the proposition panel. Still, millions of salute to Dr Hoodhboy for his true jihad against ignorance and illiterate religious fanatics.

[@akhileshpandey7503]

00:04 The debate is about the impact of politics being intertwined with religion in Pakistan's future. 02:53 Introduction of speakers at the debate event 08:31 Separation of politics and religion is crucial for Pakistan's future stability. 12:03 Debate highlights evolution of religious beliefs and practices over time 18:32 Criticism of religion in politics 21:28 The nexus of politics and religion in Pakistan is causing significant issues. 26:57 Pakistan's politics intertwined with religion is crucial for the country's identity. 30:27 Religious and political weddedness in Pakistan is leading to exploitation and violence. 36:14 Religious influence in Pakistani politics 39:05 The dominance of religion in Pakistani politics 43:14 Religion provides scope for reinterpretation and flexibility in practices. 45:26 Islam supports minority rights 49:50 Misuse of religion in politics and law enforcement 52:07 People should be free to follow their beliefs without fear of persecution. 56:49 The impact of politics being wedded with religion in Pakistan's future 59:32 Islam and modernity's impact on politics 1:04:34 Secular nationalism has led to environmental crisis and lack of purpose 1:07:29 Religion and politics intertwined in Pakistan, but religious parties rarely come to power through votes. 1:12:18 Discussion on the interplay between politics and religion in Pakistan 1:14:55 Debate about Pakistan's politics and religion. 1:20:56 Pakistan's politics should separate from religion for a better future.

[@packerslife175]

No logical answer by the religious side as usual,just answer of everything they have is Allah ka nizam and quran said this,no logic and no sense 😂

[@Kool29]

Ironically the guys who are for Islam is wearing western dresses .. double standards are in great heights..and criticise west.. naukri aur paisa ke liye West chaiye..besharam log aur soch hain..

[@azadprinda3186]

In modern muslims scholars ka ghussa aur jazbati speeches sa sabit hota ha kah. Packing new hai but Masala wahee purana hai. Wahee non muslims sa nafrat. Wahee aurat ko haqeer samjhna. Wahee insani azadi ki mukhalfat

[@nesterem]

Minorities ko tau maar dala... abe tu kya minorities rights ke baare mein bol raha hey...

[@AdnanKhan-pf7mj]

We need 10 million Hoodbhoys and 10 million less Raja Qaisers and Tarik Jamil’s. If we are ever to get a civilized society.

[@MuneebJunior-k5j]

There was zero rationality and reason on religious side. They said beautiful story of islam but not talk about geo-fencing evidence They talked about 1400 years ago when there was no sectarianism today islam is much different then before. Religious countries totally fail for instance Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran on the other hand saudi, dubai are reforming their self. A religious state has several disadvantages, including: 1. Potential for discrimination: 2. Limitations on individual freedoms: 3. Enforcement of religious orthodoxy: 4. Potential for extremism: 5. Restrictions on scientific inquiry: 6. Inequality and bias: 7. Conflict with modern values: 8. Potential for theocracy: 9. Limitations on social progress: 10. Potential for religious violence: On the other hand A secular state has several advantages, including: 1. Separation of religion and state: 2. Protection of individual rights: 3. Promotes scientific inquiry: 4. Fosters inclusivity: 5. Reduces religious conflicts: 6. Encourages pluralism: 7. Ensures equal access to education and opportunities: 8. Enhances international relations: 9. Supports critical thinking: 10. Protects minority rights:

[@freeBalochistan-n7l]

Pre-Islamic Afghanistan was a Buddhist country that was open and free for all. Pre-Islamic Iran was a Zoroastrian Persia that never persecuted any minorities. Same with Pre-Islamic Indian sub-continent. There is no Pre-Buddhist Arabia or Pre-Hindu Middle East.

[@azeem_lahori-punjabi]

The tragic stories of India's partition-marked by forced migration and mass killings-always bring deep pain and a lesson: never succumb to the religious rhetoric promoted by the local stooges of imperialist Britain, such as Jinnah, etc.

[@badshahzada3571]

The debate failed to yield a convincing argument, with Islamic thought supporters relying on historical accounts and the opposing group presenting anecdotal evidence, neither side effectively addressing the topic. Islamic group were based emotional statements nothing else.The third speaker in Hoodbhoy's group is a person of an excellent understanding. Btw iam with Hoodbhoy group. There arguments are a bit satisfying than the emotional group.

[@Nasir-Ayub]

These religious scholars were absolutely ridiculous they are good at shouting and intimidating. Please don't invite them again.

[@gudagi2391]

I am happy that the youth is awakened now. The debate won by intellectual's team. Have you noticed that Mr. Aneeq was not ignoring the slip of tongue by the intellectual lady. All three mullahs were clueless. They were just explaining the religion, accusing intelectuals and blaming the entire world. I appreciate Hood Bhai for showing a real face to them at the end. Pakistan is confused and hypocrite. A woman can be a prime minister, a state bank director, a chief justice, but when comes to the religion the same woman is having half intellect, half witness right and half inheritance. Pakistan has to repay to IMF with interest.

[@nazartech896]

This debate is 1000 times better than debates in talkshow. We encourage these types of debates.

[@qaisershehzad6212]

Jinah was the person who introduce Religiouse in the Politics. Today History proved British used Jinah and muslims as a colonial state

[@faisalponywala7614]

خزباتی ہو کر اونچی اواز میں آپکا موقف درست نہی ہو جاتا

[@sudhakarratnakar3844]

❤until and unless You will not give the freedoms to your female you will not become successful state

[@suhasverekar7130]

As long as madrasas teach earth is flat and all become graduates. You know what will happen.

[@surindersinghisser7985]

I have heard the whole discussion and have opened this again to put my comments. Mr Hood beoy has made a mistake by participating in this discussion. I do not agree with his view of BJP, however Pakistan is not a country matured enough to listen to his such matured views & are to live in the state they are.

[@gulshan9132]

BJP IS A POLITICAL PARTY & ALL POLITICAL PARTIES ARE PRONE TO CRTICISM & ALSO ACCEPTANCE

[@starawc2001]

These type of discussions will mature the Pakistani people.

[@adrianadam8543]

We need a Million more Hoodbhoy's and a Million less Tarik Jameel's, the man is a diamond. I hope he does 1000 more interviews.

[@vinsin328]

That is against human evolution.

[@beaconlifesciences2427]

Well done Dr hodboy, anmber and Waqas sb

[@kalidasswaminathan4341]

Hats off to Prof Hudbhoy! Difficult debate to organize in Pakistan.

[@manjulkumarsharma1432]

Pakistan was created on the basis of Religion but was divided in to two nations despite following Islam, Islam is also divided in to many different institutions who fight with each other to finish each other ..many innocent lives have been lost at different places...

[@shortswallah4]

Most educated Pakistani Muslims know the main reasons of Pakistan detoritaing situations but no one has guts to bell the cat because they will become top soil .

[@733PV]

Proposers. Mostly calm, clear and vivid, debating with honor, sound supporting arguments. Opposers. Just mullah mentality. Loud voices with lame arguments, Most of their arguments contradicting their stance and supporting proposers. Typical sentimental behavior with no sign of improvement.

[@Psychological_rent]

And the voting at the end increased my faith in the people of Pakistan.

[@sreenathc]

First rule of debating…..When you are debating the validity of a book, you cannot use that very same book to validate your arguments

[@jagmohantrivedi790]

Prof.Hoodbhoy u are well respected among a Rational Pakistani. However ur last comment that if BJP ever comes to power then condition of Muslims and.christians,may become miserable. This statement seems to be too narrow and unrealistic given the roots and ethos of Hinduism. This religion is full of kindness and unity of mankind.Herein killing of ants and serpants treated as sin. On Nagpanchmi festival serpants offered Milk. Even rats are worshipped. All animals and even trees are worshipped. This kindness element to large extent embaded in genes and allowed success of Foreign Invaders. With Regards.

[@saleemjarwar8866]

Week arguments by Aneek Ahmed

[@saeeddeen7304]

Pervaiz Hoodbhoy ZindaBaad ❤👍. State must act like a state, free of any religious idealogy. Justice with everyone. No one above the Law.

[@vinsin328]

Not so easy as the state reflects people. What state should do always to take rational decision.

[@Danial.999]

When Dr. Hoodbhoy spoke passionately at the end, he shattered all the trickery and debate strategies of the opposition. This is a really good new initiative by The Black Hole team. Much appreciated.

[@ashsharma3169]

Thank Jinnah for separating such religion-obsessed people from India (partially, thanks to Gandhi-Nehru).

[@mohanvirick2600]

All religions divide us Humanity will ultimately unite us

[@farazsomjee]

Pak is getting progressive, albeit slowly. Win for proposition is a slight hope for sure. Aneeek Ahmed was a huge disappointment, super illogical !

[@Hassan_18820]

Brilliant from Pervaz Hoodbhoy.

[@bhushanpandya2270]

After hearing this whole debate I thank God that this piece of land called Pakistan was departed from India. This again proves that Pakistan is not just land but a mindset and yes Pakistan will definitely be doomed.

[@AzlanAamir]

Man at this point i'd just say one simple phrase: The religious side failed to prove their point and talk rationally. That's all. Also Dr. Pervez is a living legend and complete university.❤

[@blazingsun8862]

Open discussions should be held on tv and universities. Black Hole in Islamabad is a great place.

[@Jazib-p9y]

Hats off to Dr pervaiz, Amber and waqas

[@pumanz7930]

I wish Religious side once live in non muslim countries and then defend their arguments

[@primordialarchetypes2927]

as a minority i'd prefer to live in IN rather than PK BD

[@donbrad6011]

Completely wrong. Muslims in India are doing much better than not only Hindus and Minorities in Pakistan but also Muslims in Pakistan. How many Minoriry Presidents has Pakistan had? None. How many Hindus,Christians in your cricket team? None. And if Majority Muslim Pakistan can be Islamic Republic of Pakistan why should you object to majority Hindu India to be a Hindu country. Pakistan is poor because of fanatic Islam.

[@Zubair-Torwali]

It is logic versus rhetoric! No debate at all!

[@saleemjarwar8866]

Hood bhai is winner❤. Very Sad on Aneek Ahmed.

[@FareedaKalsoom]

Oppositions need serious training for Debate to answer after understanding. They completely made it Atheists Vs Islam. This is the core issue that they represented instead of solving in debate.

[@beaconlifesciences2427]

حضرت خدیجہ کے بزنس کی مثال دی گئ اسلامی حوالے سے ۔حالانکہ وہ تو اسوقت مسلمان ہی نہیں تھیں۔

[@ahmedkhan7231]

Good discussion by Dr sb , amber, lawyer, and the last speaker

[@mananhameed-ot6jt]

Good arguments from Left

[@Psychological_rent]

And hats off to hoodboy for showing courage and claiming his ground on his historical knowledge.

[@bbb-v9d]

although the guest speakers lack factual knowledge but very nice initiative and hope it will continue without any foreign intervention. ❤❤❤

[@rensoyphil]

What about capturing of Cathedral of Saint Sophia and converting into mosque?

[@omerjaved427]

Maududi did oppose the idea of Pakistan and kept opposing Jinnah after Independence. For me, denying this fact and terming it as 'distortion of history' is the biggest point against Anik and his team !!

[@rohanvaghela1454]

The loudness of muslim clerics shows that they don't have valid aguments. The lady is really brave. great initiation by black hole to initiate such discussion. would have been great debate if shehzad(TPE) is invited.

[@beaconlifesciences2427]

اگر ایک استاد کے شاگرد فیل ہو رہے ہوں ۔اسمیں قصور طالب علموں کا نہیں ہوتا۔استاد پر سوالیہ نشان ہوتا ہے

[@temschutia7012]

Comments..... Telling the Final decision n declaring who are the winners..... Majority granted..... Parvez Hoodboy n his Team....are the Winners because Truth always wins

[@prashantpatekar5656]

Mr Fahad , what is your opinion about the percentage of Minorities decreased from 1947 to 2024 in Pakistan .There is superiority complex

[@DKar-ro3tz]

even hypocrisy is laughing at this debate

[@kamaleshtewari4124]

It was a wonderful and eye-opener debate. Kudos to your team.

[@dariusaasin5580]

Very thought provoking debate.

[@TheUndergroundRockstar]

This session can take place only at The Black Hole. Otherwise, no one can have these guts.

[@ekramhussainmir3903]

Religion not only Pakistan but also most of the developing countries have eclipsed. Side by side caste n creed r rising to add further deterioration

[@Real_ZERON]

جب تک ہم مجرم کو مجرم نہیں کہینگے تب تک کچھ نہیں ہوگا

[@arifkidwai293]

Pervez Hoodbhai was the best. Aneeq Ahmed was the worst. Pervez presented his case all encompassing though succinctly with a structure married with well reasoned logic maintaining his arguments in a natural flow. His rebuttal too was robust and convincing. Aneeq Ahmed is a DIY so-called religious scholar. When he was speaking it seemed as though some least educated moulvi was giving a sermon at a local village mosque. Lacking substance and rebuttal to Pervez's arguments, Aneeq intermittently recited Arabic Ayat instead of giving its Urdu translation for the understanding of the general audience. This is called a typical village moulvi. Sarmad Ali and Fahd Kazmi appeared to be well trained and experienced debaters though Fahd Kazmi sounded a Paindo with his punjabised accent of Ardo (Urdu). After Pervez Hoodbhai, Waqas Mir was the one who impressed the audience.

[@qazwsx25321]

98% majority me minority rights what a joker

[@tariqshakeel1014]

I wish doctor sahib lives forever with us

[@rumz345]

ameen

[@edwardyeo88]

Best speech by Ambar Shamshi. Fully agree, support and apprecaite all her points.

[@kamrantahawar9192]

IT IS SIMPLE SCIENCE THAT PAKISTAN'S NAME SHOULD BE THE SEMI-ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN THIS WILL ACCEPT ALL OUR DRMAS ACCORDING TO ISLAM.

[@abdulhaq913]

ویلڈن ہودبائی.... Good narrative

[@Mr10041954]

Second speaker is so illogical and blinded by belief.