Debating the Nature of "Tongues" in the Bible | Chris Date vs. Sam Storms

[@PuzzlesC4M]

Love Sam Storms! I’m on the Catholic side of the fence now, but will always be grateful for his teaching on amillenialism. If you know anyone trying to break away from dispensationalism, he is the way to go.

[@joshsbiblevlog]

I found this to be incredibly helpful and learned several things I had never hear before. Thanks!

[@TheKingsComingAlefTav]

The guy with the glasses is a master debater

[@kamikazezebra]

Thanks

[@brando3342]

Was Chris throwing Protestant shots with that opening? lol Shots fired 🤣

[@CapturingChristianity]

Seems like it.

[@thomisticthinker]

@@CapturingChristianity oh no, you mad? 😂

[@brando3342]

@@thomisticthinker Nah, I think we can all handle assertions of doctrinal beliefs. Not a huge deal.

[@FullMetalThomist]

I did kind of laugh that he made those statements then claimed that his opponents views were "historically novel".

[@halleylujah247]

Him and Dr Storms did it. Kinda unprofessional if you ask me to make shots like that when you are aware the moderator can't respond. Cheap shots.

[@PresbyterianPaladin]

Sam's question of how Paul's prohibition against speaking in tongues in the congregation without an interpreter would make sense, seeing as how the person doing the speaking could just tell the congregation what he was saying, doesn't take into account people like Joseph Smith. Paul most likely prohibits speaking tongues (other actual languages) without an interpreter because without the interpreter it's too easy to fake, that's how you get people who believe the book of Mormon was written in "Reformed Egyptian". Because the only person claiming to understand this foreign language is just making stuff up and there's nobody to call him on it. Whereas in genuine tongues the person who speaks the other foreign language serves as a demonstration that this person isn't just making stuff up. I don't know why Chris didn't avail himself of that response, but his points on the difficulty of translation is a good one as well. Speaking as a man learning Korean I know first hand how hard translation is. Lol

[@freedominchrist23]

Very good point thanks for sharing!!

[@christiansacra599]

As a Catholic dating a charismatic Baptist this has been helpful in clearing up the landscape for me. It's felt difficult nailing down what's important and why in charismatic Christianity

[@wild-aussies]

I'm not Lutheran, but this is brilliant: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gpmqeWd-lt6fl7c

[@christiansacra599]

@Wild Aussies I've seen that, almost made the German reformation worth it.

[@isaiahburridgemusic]

I love Sam Storms and I love Chris Date. Sam has been a wonderful influence in my Christian theology. However, I must say that Chris Date made the most convincing case of this debate.

[@tomtemple69]

The glasses guy just laid out everything i agree with

[@schubetz]

They both have glasses😊

[@regularstan6212]

Grew up in Pentacostal church, heard tounges my entire life. One day i was visiting an american church some guy started and he spoke in my native language of ukrianian. He didnt know the language at al. Its wasnt elegant but it was a simple phrase over and over again. But it was neat.

[@ProphetGreg94]

Wow!

[@Jeffmacaroni1542]

I faked tongues after the Pastor laid hands on me as a new believer because I didn't want to make the Pastor look bad in front of everyone.

[@regularstan6212]

I tried to fake it, but it happened

[@Heavenlyminded2023]

😅you poor thing there really is a lot of pressure... I'm glad you kept trying there's no point in being rushed God will give it to you when he wants to.

[@ntlearning]

You have issues Jeff. Get some help.

[@goblinondrums]

⁠@@ntlearningbecame a Christian to get help, confesses he faked speaking in tongues because he felt pressure in the setting he was in with the Pastor. Gets told by you he has issues and needs to get help. How exactly is what you just said helpful in attributing to what Jeff just clearly said in truth?

[@ntlearning]

@@goblinondrums Because it shows deeper issues - pleasing men, and not God. This person will resent the charismata one day because of this, but not take ownership of their own deviance and blame everything and everyone else - which is exactly where you were leading. They need to take responsibility as well. It's not honest, plain and simple. We've become soft and snow flake Christians these days and then claim the charismata is all fake.

[@yeshuaneitheristheresalvat8018]

Isn't it telling that no one in Pauls time debated over this. They were cosumed with Jesus, not themselves or any of the gifts!

[@BartHumphries]

Some of the pieces we have from those times say they were written as a rebuttal to the writings of others. So not only can we can see arguments and discussions happening, we know we don't have everything from all of the arguments and discussions.

[@isaiahsuarez1337]

Buddy, Paul wrote this to address their wrong ways of using/ abusing tongues. So yes people were having differing opinions on this

[@henkv9323]

Thank you, very good debate and information to evaluate this subject

[@EricBraun100]

I'm a new believer, so I don't even pretend to know much about speaking in tongues. I was raised in a Roman Catholic environment but never believed in God until recently (2 years or so) that being said... When I hear Christians speaking in tongues it makes me recoil and feel uneasy. My first impression is that it seems so fake and cultish. I'm not making any point, I just wanted to share what effect it has on me, if that helps at all. I'm going to keep trying to learn more about it.

[@givethanks6714]

Just wait if you get something yourself. It often changes the outlook. I did not seek it, and in prayer meeting one time, some others were praying (not to me), then suddenly my tongue started to move by itself, it was strange. I had no clear theology on the matter of tongues, but later I understood that was my starting point of tongues. it does edify, especially when you know the Spirit gives utterance. I also know family members that got it in private, driving car from work, sitting and praying by themselves etc.

[@larrytruelove8659]

Eric People have experiences, but it doesn’t appear to be related to the HS. I think it’s more psychological. It seems pretty ridiculous to me.

[@billleroy6736]

I agree. When I first heard people singing in this strange sound it startled me and scared me away and I thought, that was weird. I think what happens with people is phycological. So when you're being influenced by other people things can happen. Think of hypnotism.

[@EricBraun100]

@@givethanks6714 Ty for sharing. I understand you were not seeking it, but I'm curious, were you often exposed to believers who practice tongues before your experience? Was it your understanding that speaking in tongues is evidence of the Spirit being in you?

[@givethanks6714]

@@EricBraun100 Sure, I also I had my strongest experience with tongues 2am alone while reading Exodus and thinking about how great God is! :) , no manipulation, no other people making a scene, no music, no nothing. It was so special to me I had to bow my knee in awe. It was like a different person used me to speak!! I.e the H.S. Never have it been so spontaneous and strong. And then this verse came so alive to me " The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, " I had many times it is good, but not like that one. No, I had heard very little tongues prior to that time. I remember me and some other saw a benny Hinn clip and my friends asked me about tongues, but I really was unfamiliar and shared their notion in away, that it was wired etc. That is all I can remember before I got it. But it is around 9 years ago, so I can't promise that there was not other things I heard.. But at least NOT much. No it was not my understanding that that tongues is *the* evidence. But I have studied receiving the Spirit/Baptism in the H.S so much later and I think tongues is one of the signs of the reception, like it often is in Acts. But not all will get it as their first gift. So if someone get another supernatural grace gift, like prophecy, healings, words of wisdom and knowledge etc etc. then it is their sign of receiving the H.S. And then later they later may receive tongues, we are commanded to eagerly seek these gifts. But the Spirit gives and decides. Thanks for your questions :)

[@aperson4057]

Around 53:00 Chris gives the idea that the spiritual gift of interpreting tongues would be about translating difficult religious terms or phrases. This hermeneutic with the text I think falls apart very quickly with a natural reading. Paul sees this as supernatural Spirit-inspired gifts. This "meaningful translation" view seems disconnected with the worldview of the Bible and naturally read, more of a Western interpolation. Paul seems pretty clear that tongues spoken was not understood, which is why he decides not to speak in tongues to the church. It seems odd that the Holy Spirit poured out this gift in very inopportune times. So inopportune, that being a manifestation of the Spirit, yet its not to be done in the church. I will say this that in my view, glossalia seems to better explain Paul's text and later Acts passages with less ad hoc information than Date's view. Xenolalia is the obvious meaning in Acts 2.

[@commoncentsflips4030]

I think Chris's point around 50:00 is super weak. If you know two languages, you can translate from one to the other. You wouldn't need a supernatural gift to do so. I don't think the Holy Spirit is only going to be speaking weird cultural idioms all the time

[@usedtobeifb]

As someone who has had to translate since i was 6 years old (now i am 40) I can tell you that knowing two languages and translating from one language to the other are NOT THE SAME THING. I translated simultaneously for a church for 9 years and an very good at it but it took a lot of practice, and thinking. Most and I do mean most bilingual people that I have met have told me they can't translate in any meaningful way. Sam doesn't seem to grasp that idea, and it at least tells me he hasn't done any translating real time in any meaningful way.

[@asmrjeweler9237]

I am interested to know. What do you mean you translated for a church?

[@OLskewL]

Also interested to know @@asmrjeweler9237

[@tomtemple69]

@@asmrjeweler9237 the church i grew up in has services in russian and english, if the speaker was russian, there was someone in english to interpret and vice versa

[@annalynn9325]

The statements from the church fathers are most persuasive to me. What Paul said about tongues does seem more about glossolalia; on the other hand, he said it’s not a useful gift absent someone who can interpret. I have NEVER heard anyone interpret although I have heard plenty of people speak in tongues.

[@travisrosenthal398]

He said it’s not useful in edifying others absent interpretation. He does however say, without interpretation, the one speaking in tongues is edified.

[@tomtemple69]

@@travisrosenthal398 Paul is saying that as a rebuke against the Corinthians who were speaking in tongues sans interpretation all gifts are given to edify the church first and foremost, tongues are meant to edify the church using them without interpretation does not accomplish what the gift is meant for

[@travisrosenthal398]

@@tomtemple69 interesting because 1 Corinthians 14:2 says, “He who speaks in an u known tongue, speaks not to men, but to God.” Further down Paul even goes on to say, “He edifies himself.” He tells the people to keep it between themselves and God absent the interpretation .

[@larrytruelove8659]

I’m not an expert on the subject but I’ve myself made the kinds of conclusions Chris has. With regard to how someone could sincerely speak gibberish and be wrong, hypnosis explains that pretty well. In another you tube video (Long for truth), they have a lot of documentation that early 20th century charismatics believed they spoke in xenolelia and some of them travelled to foreign lands believing they could speak to the natives. They ultimately realized they couldn’t.

[@andys3035]

I come from a Pentecostal background. The problem I've seen having been in the camp years ago is tongues is faked. I remember an alter call where a pastor was coaching someone to speak in tongues and once their tongue started to stammer and rolling gibberish, the pastor proclaimed they had it. I also saw the entire congregation speak in tongues when they gathered together. I think tongues is still a gift but it's not for everyone and it's for the edification of the church.

[@brianfarley926]

I’ve seen the same bs fake thing from my wife’s family who are Pentecostal as well. Seemed like attention seeking to me for validation that they are a “believer” My reading in Acts 2 for example shows when the Apostles spoke the crowed even though they spoke many different languages could all hear the Apostles. They weren’t persuaded though until Peter got up and spoke in tongues as well converting some 3,000 of them. So it’s not some gibberish speech. The purpose of speaking in tongues was to spread the Gospel. I think charisma died out or if it exists it’s about as rare as demon possession. So exceedingly rare in other words. And I’m Catholic as if that matters but I have a defined belief in the Supernatural with being open to Angels and Demons so speaking in tongues isn’t beyond my ability to understand it’s possible but I think it’s a lot of misreading by denominations like Pentecostals. If I can ask and pray for the Saints intercession to God, it’s not beyond belief tongues exist however I tend to think it died out after the infancy of the Church and it was something the Apostles can do. But I’m open to it if I hear of a legit case where someone speaks in tongues to people of different backgrounds and the listeners all understand the speaker like in Acts 2.

[@andys3035]

@brianfarley926 there were actually practices in the occult prior to Pentecostals where people would connect with their god and would shake and claim esoteric tongues. You see this same thing happening in charismatic churches today where they bark and convulse. Pentecost is about a reversal of Babel. Instead of confusion, God brings the nations together to save through the gospel of His Son as promised to Abraham.

[@brianfarley926]

@@andys3035 fair enough. I’m skeptical never seen on that was genuine nor what I described the Apostles being able to do where everyone who spoke different languages there could understand the speaker simultaneously. Never heard that Happening since back then. What I hear today is gibberish non sense of people trying to show they believe thus work themselves into a trance to show confirmation of their belief. Now if someone can do what the Apostles did then I would find that convincing that gift of tongues still happens I’m not saying the people don’t feel genuine about what they say they experience, just isn’t convincing to me

[@andys3035]

@@brianfarley926 agreed

[@masonthompson3284]

@@brianfarley926 Pentecostal becoming Catholic chiming in! Before I converted, I witnessed one night in a prayer meeting my church held where my Pastor (a red white n blue blooded American) prayed over a Congolese couple in tongues & they actually understood much of what he said. In every other case I’ve experienced was mostly people using tongues for the sake of tongues, which is what started my own skepticism in the first place. Maybe one day the Church will have a more definitive stance on general charismatic things because at least having the door open to it helped me bridge the gap.

[@emmanuelmakoba6085]

Dr Sam is good at debating cool and calm. But Chris made better positive points.

[@brianfarley926]

52:00 mark. Someone who speaks something to me in a language I understand means I understand the language it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m interpreting what they are saying correctly. For example let’s say this sentence: “I didn’t say you stole the money.” Now depending on HOW I said that sentence and emphasized certain words there are multiple interpretations of this sentence. Make sense?

[@myragazvoda2826]

I did a study on this through bsf. I believe it was used for a time by God but for the most part It’s a source of pride and can be coming from bad angels (satan). I don’t want to ever be in a church where it’s happening.

[@thetopcat8946]

It's really not good in so many ways lack of understanding of the hebrew words imo..

[@ntlearning]

You have a faulty understanding of the mystical body of Christ. It’s impossible for the body of Christ to be unable to do the supernatural.

[@letsreasontogether9520]

1 cor 14:13-19 , it is clear that the language said in 'the spirit' does not necessarily mean it's understood by the same persons 'mind'. It is with the 'the mind' that Paul says he prays to understand, for himself, what is being communicated by his ver own 'spirit'.

[@Rsunday1927]

A few years ago, I attended a 3 Day Catholic Retreat, at the end of the session we had confession session, then session of calling of The Holly Spirit. We were singing/chanting word Hallelujah, suddenly I felt like the whole body being electrocuted, I don't know How I got on the floor, my lips started to move, with sounds that I don't even understand. I felt peaceful, I wanted to stay in that state forever, but they woke me up! Until now I am still able to speak in tongue. Fyi: I didn't believe it before. Thank you Lord for the gift❤️🙏🙏🙏

[@EduardoRodriguez-du2vd]

When you hear someone else speak in "tongues" (on a video, in another church, when someone from another country does it, etc.), do you understand exactly what they are saying?

[@givethanks6714]

@@EduardoRodriguez-du2vd I have read testimonies. A Greek woman in Sweden heard a pastor from Sweden pray for her in her own Greek, even own dialect. That was clearly xenolalia and was special. There are others also that testify of the sort. I ones said the word for strength in a tongue with my wife sitting next to me at a prayer, she understood that word in Pilipino and told me, and I never knew that meaning or can not remember even hearing the word.

[@EduardoRodriguez-du2vd]

@@givethanks6714 The situation would be that someone knows someone else's language? A woman hears that a foreign person speaks her native language? I don't really see how that relates to speaking in "tongues" or why it would be special in any way. Did you once utter a Filipino word in front of your Filipino-speaking wife? I don't distinguish because it seems surprising to you that you unconsciously acquired a bit of one of the languages your wife speaks. Frankly those examples seem irrelevant to me. The issue is whether those who speak in "tongues" resort to a sacred language. The language of angels, for example. And if people of different cultures and languages (who do not know each other) can communicate effectively using sounds and grammar of a language unknown to the rest of the linguistic community. Otherwise, speaking in "tongues" is either suggestion or meaningless babbling to impress an audience.

[@givethanks6714]

@@EduardoRodriguez-du2vd "The situation would be that someone knows someone else's language?" No, we do not know it, but that the Spirit uses a vessel and gives utterance, a word, sentence, praise to God, or even a message to another person. The person speaking never learned the language naturally and may not reproduce anything of the same language later. And therefore it is amazing. Sure some people might know a few words form the language they get utterance in. Like many older Norwegians in the villages knew "Thank you" and a few other words in English, but they were literally ignorant of the language. But if such an old Norwegian fluently spoke phrases in English, then we know it is not natural. Well, my example was in the prayer, and I already had prayed in my own Norwegian language about God and things related to that like strength etc, and we just pray in that language, since we live here.. She then noticed that word came out of me, that she knew. And you may think it seem irrelevant, but I never taught her dialects, just know a few words. But never that. She lives here, so it is not natural for me to really learn from theirs.

[@EduardoRodriguez-du2vd]

@@givethanks6714 Has anyone thought of recording all the expressions and analyzing their coherence? Is it expected to find coherence? Words that are repeated with the same meaning, grammatical and syntactic structure, etc. around the world. That you consider that an old Norwegian is not expected to know English correctly is naive. If you give me a choice between the supernatural explanation, the Holy Spirit introduced a single Filipino word in a Norwegian prayer and, your wife has said words in her dreams that you heard while half asleep, without further information, I will favor the explanation that is most likely.

[@billleroy6736]

I wish they had the scriptures up so we could read and think along with them.

[@GodsView1]

At around 49mins an error is made by Chris in saying the tongue speaker knows the human language he's saying, whereas in Acts 2 the tongues speakers did not know what they were saying but the other nations were interpreting the language. The only way a tongues speaker would know what they are saying is if God gave he or she the gift of interpreting their human language spoken.

[@regularstan6212]

I watched Rhett and Link and had NO idea they where Christian.

[@Jeffmacaroni1542]

Not everyone spoke in tongues after receiving the Spirit.

[@Imheretohelpnhavefun]

Interesting debate, but ultimately I think Chris' points are pretty forced. The Lukan parallel is relevant, and it does, in my opinion, provide Prima Facie strength to his position. But he can't even start to make sense of 1 Corinthians 14 within his view. If the evidence in 1 Co 14 wasn't so strong, I could grant that it could be the same thing, but IMO Paul could hardly be more clear that: 1. The person speaking in tongues doesn't understand what they are saying. 2. That the purpose of the gift when used without interpretation, is to provide a spiritual edification that is not mediated by the speaker's understanding. 3. That the possibility of transmission of the content to others would require supernatural intervention (not even close to the idea of the "difficulty of translating" that he presents. Also, the quote he reads at 1:11:20 is obviously talking about a really good translation for written/recorded contexts, that don't come close to being necessary in regular communication between people personally. He's such a good debater, though, haha.

[@axderka]

I had a ridiculously crazy experience with glosslalia, yet, I still would side with Chris in this debate. Experience does not trump what the Bible teaches if the experience is not biblical. I'd say my experience was not your average one in any sense.

[@tomtemple69]

yeah, that's the error of many pentecostal charismatics, because of their experience, they interpret and read into the text that which aligns with their experience

[@TKK0812]

The entire discussion towards the end of Chris asking "depends on what you mean by "in private" is a perfect representation of Chris' masterful debate skills but complete lack of content at times. Love Chris, and he's very quick on his feet and very intelligent, but his never ending use of minutia and trivialities to win an argument is at times exhausting. Isaiah 28 and Deut 28: Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, 12 to whom he said, “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”; and, “This is the place of repose”- but they would not listen. 13 So then, the word of the Lord to them will become: Do this, do that, a rule for this, a rule for that; a little here, a little there- so that as they go they will fall backward; they will be injured and snared and captured They will be a *sign* and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you. 49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, *a nation whose language you will not understand* When Paul says that tongues are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers, he is saying that uninterpreted tongues to an unbeliever is a bad sign, not a good one. It's also why he says that they will walk in as assume you are all mad.

[@ProphetGreg94]

Amen. I appreciate your comment. Well explained.

[@regularstan6212]

Chris Date makes many good points. I can see both arguements.

[@chudeobuaya6868]

I think the assumption here with known tongues is that the person speaking knows the tongue. What if they do not? Which presumingly would be the most common declaration of the gift of tongues

[@Mathetesofscripture]

Then it would be pointless noise. That's Paul's point about speaking intelligible words. Hence why this new movement is antibiblical

[@garyh2100]

Notice that Christians who pray for God to miraculously fix their cars only pray for repairs they cannot see with their eyes. If a car does not start, some believers will ask God to fix it rather than asking Him for wisdom in the situation. However, believers never ever pray for a repair of something visibly wrong with the car. For example, Christians never pray and ask God to supernaturally fix a flat tire. Why? If a knob is broken off or a windshield is busted out, Christians do not ask God to fix those things. Why? Because they know, deep within, even if they have a hard time admitting it, that God will not fix those things no matter how much faith they have. However, a mechanical problem that they cannot see presents a blind faith opportunity to deceive themselves. The uncertainty that goes with hidden problems leaves enough chance that the car just might start on the next attempt (as cars so often do). So, Christians claim a miracle when the car starts on the next try. Supernatural intervention will resume in the (actual) End Times. Meanwhile, anyone can create their own list of questions that easily disprove the claim that miracles continue today, including: - Why don't amputees get healed? - Why don't televangelists clear out children's hospitals? - Why doesn't healing ever remove a child from an organ donor waiting list? Christians should admit that they do not possess the physical redemption of their earthly bodies. For if they did possess that redemption, then they would not long for it. So remember to glorify God in trials and difficulties because that is when His power will shine brightest. ...the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us... For... we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. Cover of Bob Enyart's book The Plot: An Overview of the BibleFor we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, then we eagerly wait for it... Rom. 8:17, 22-25 Consider also that in a sense, a miracle robs an unbeliever of the opportunity to exercise faiths

[@orth3593]

Are you an atheist?

[@timmiller7338]

Praises to God for 2022AD !

[@RoyceVanBlaricome]

I'm at the 50min mark. Good debate thus far. Good argumentation, good rebuttals, and good Cross-Examination. No major points given to either side until now. A few hits, a few swings and a miss, a few fly balls but not much loading the bases. However, Sam just scored a run. Chris' attempt to explain away the need for the gift of interpretation failed. Miserably. There is NO getting around the logical fact that a person who speaks in a foreign language that he knows would know how to interpret that language. Furthermore, if he's speaking a foreign language to a group of people who alreayd speak it then there is NO need for him to interpret it to anyone but himself. Either way it is the Holy Spirit that must be involved.

[@tomtemple69]

did the people outside of the house have the gift of interpretation? they said "we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.” 12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others were mocking and saying, “They are full of sweet wine.” tongues don't need interpretation if someone of another language can translate them because they understand stand the tongue if no one can understand the tongue in the group of people, there needs to be an interpreter if not, keep silent because no one understands what you are saying and you are edifying no one

[@RoyceVanBlaricome]

​@@tomtemple69 //did the people outside of the house have the gift of interpretation?// You're not making any sense. Read what I wrote again. They wouldn't need the gift of interpretation. Smh As for the rest, your just not either thinking critically or understanding the passage.

[@ProphetGreg94]

I agree! You are correct.

[@daMillenialTrucker]

That older fella sounds like Dr Phil 😂 same accent and speech cadence 😂😂

[@CollinBoSmith]

It’s contradictory to say, as Chris is saying, that understanding what your saying in a foreign language doesn’t give you the ability to translate. If you’re speaking a language you don’t know, and understanding the meaning, you are understanding that meaning in your own language. As someone who has translated a foreign language quite a bit, any translating I do is all connected through my own native language. I can’t simply understand the foreign language without connecting it to my own language in some way, at least it’s very hard to imagine how that would happen. Chris’s position does seem to cause very little need of a true gift of interpretation.

[@jimmoomchi9738]

I was thinking exactly the same thing Collin.

[@GraceNerdTV]

Right. I found the "wooden translation vs. quality interpretation" distinction to be entirely artificial. Quality interpretation may be a difficult human task. But that's still very different from it being a supernatural gift in the broad sense that Paul has established in 1st Corinthians.

[@darrenplies9034]

Catholic charismatic renewal. Worth a dive for those unaware

[@darrenplies9034]

@Ubi Fides huh ?

[@darrenplies9034]

@Ubi Fides Mere protestant just pointing out the charismatic renewal didn’t happen in a vacuum. I’m not pro or con, just pointing out that it’s a real historic movement that people should be aware of. Been blessed with beautiful friends that were a part of it back in the early 70s and through the years. I’ve done ministry and linked arms with beautiful charismatic Catholics that love Jesus. on a testimonial front..

[@selwin26]

Chris simply Nailed it. Historical Christianity has always considered Tongues in Languages

[@regularstan6212]

Great discussion

[@CatholicWithaBiblePodcast]

1:39:00 Those preaching being "salvation by works" and "elevating Mary to the same level as Jesus". Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox should all be able to come together to disavow this because none of us believe that. I hope Dr. Storms is just ignorant and not that disingenuous.

[@Jeffmacaroni1542]

Faith alone is heresy. James 2 read it slowly , also see Ephesians 2:10 No one posts that. I'm not Catholic.

[@yeshuaneitheristheresalvat8018]

"Tongues of angels is a hyperboli. They are missing the context completely.

[@BasilTU]

Could you explain further, please?

[@reimannsum9077]

​@@BasilTU Paul is using a figure of speech to illustrate the supremacy of charity - or gracious Christian love - as a gift from God to be prized above all others. "If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing." Each example is an extreme, none of which implies that it is necessarily possible or literal. For instance, our minds are finite, and it is impossible to "fathom all mysteries and all knowledge" as that is something of which only an infinite God is capable. Clearly, Paul is being hyperbolic as a rhetorical strategy to demonstrate that love transcends all other gifts in value. In the same way, even if I could speak in the tongues of angels - which I cannot do, and which has nothing whatsoever in context to do with the way in which the gift of tongues is described consistently in every other instance as a comprehensible, human language - it would be meaningless without love, so desire that [love] above all else.

[@BasilTU]

@@reimannsum9077 Thank you for the clarification. I'm trying to wrap my head around the biblical concept of speaking in tongues and how it compares with the modern manifestation.

[@davedice9050]

Hello, I have a genuine question sort of related to this debate. It seems all or most Christian denominations claim they have the Holy Spirit but I don't understand how there can be so much disagreement if all of these people do actually have the Holy Spirit. Yes, I get that most denominations agree on the core tenets of Christian belief such as Christ's divinity, The Resurrection etc but this issue really bothers me. The Holy Spirit is meant to be God within someone right? A counsellor, and guide to truth? (John 16:13). So I guess my problem is that this is literally God guiding people to truth yet it seems no one can agree on anything except the main doctrines. Maybe the main doctrines are all that's needed but it still seems like a big issue to me. If any of that makes sense! Thanks for replies in advance :)

[@brando3342]

Iron sharpens iron. There must be disagreements to see who has God's approval. The Holy Spirit works through fallible humans, He doesn't make humans infallible.

[@davedice9050]

@@brando3342 "The Holy Spirit works through fallible humans, He doesn't make humans infallible." That's a really good way to put it, thank you :) I'm not quite sure what you mean though when you say there must be disagreements to see who has God's approval.

[@brando3342]

@@davedice9050 No problem. What I mean is what it says in 1 Corinthians 11:19 “No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.” As I take it, he is saying that as long as we have a mutual goal of aiming towards understanding truth, differences of opinion are not only okay, but actually necessary. They are what help us test our claims, as each of us are guided by the Holy Spirit. I believe there should be at least some credence given to a congregation of agreement among the Holy Spirit, when in contradiction with an individual with the Holy Spirit. That isn’t to say the individual is wrong, but if we suppose the congregation are agreeing in good faith with the aforementioned goal in mind, it ought to give us pause that they all disagree with said individual.

[@davedice9050]

@@brando3342 You are making sense thank you. I guess my problem is looking on from the outside (I haven't been to Church in years) I wouldn't know which denomination is "right" or if such a thing exists.

[@brando3342]

@@davedice9050 No worries! I completely understand what you mean. I think it is a good thing to remember we don’t always have to be right about every little bit of doctrine. I may be believing something wrong regarding tertiary doctrines, but I still know Jesus is Lord and Saviour. In the end, I will have plenty of time in eternity to learn, and grow in the truth. I would say having Mere Christianity by C.S Lewis on hand, and going back to it every once in awhile is probably a good practice, if all the debates, and disagreements start to weigh on you. As well as, of course, just spending time with your Bible, and the Lord. Regarding church, I would just choose one you think is right, so long as their doctrinal statements hold up to mere Christianity. I wouldn’t worry about disagreements so much, being a part of the congregation is good, even amid differences of opinions, as they will always exist, and that is okay.

[@EnHacore1]

Chris Date doing what he does best, twisting scripture to fit his pre-determined ideas. It is obvious that Chris's experience in twisting scripture to debate reformed Calvinist theology comes in handy.

[@kstu8019]

Fr Ripperger has a great take on this. It's a quick hit and makes sense--I'm paraphrasing, but basically God is not going to just turn you into a jib jab puppet for show. Check it out!

[@annalynn9325]

😂 If I spoke in tongues I’d be calling for an exorcist quick!

[@mokalaj]

Good debate, i am in a Pentecostal church, Tongues are languages.. we have almost 7 people speaking different languages.. translating what the main speaker says..

[@Mathetesofscripture]

Record it and put it on the internet to be inspected. The truth does not fear investigation

[@RoyceVanBlaricome]

Sam, you just taught me something. Or at least I think you did. I'll have to study out 1st Cor. 14:4 but I've always taken that in the past to mean "puffs up because that's what I've heard and it made sense on the surface. I'll have to look into that but a quick look at 30+ translations in my eSword shows at least half saying "edifies". I think I've been wrong.

[@alanhales6369]

Roycevanblaricome. The tongues in 1 Cor 14: 4, are one of the EIGHT supernatural operations of tongues that the Bible records, this tongue builds up our spirit. If you want the EIGHT supernatural operations of tongues that the Bible records, I will show you.

[@RoyceVanBlaricome]

@@alanhales6369 - LOL. No thanks. The Holy Spirit hasn't seen fit to show me in 32yrs so I highly doubt you can. Might be able to show me how to babble out some gibberish but I'm not interested,.

[@yeshuaneitheristheresalvat8018]

The "edifying yourself" was a rebuke!!! The are missing the contex entirely! We are NOT SUPPOSED TO EDIFY OURSELVES, BUT "THE GIFTS" WERE GIVING "FOR THE EDIFICATION OF THE BODY." THEY WERE BEING REBUKED, NOT INSTRUCTED.

[@ljdrew3233]

Edification begins at the point of the individual before flowing to the rest of the body… Paul would not be rebuking people for something he practices himself ..

[@newzlite1200]

Tongues is meant to edify the church. Has the church even bothered to test the spirit? Why is the church not bothered about leveraging this gift for the benefit of unbelievers? Or is it because this era is the fulfilment of people being lovers of self rather than lovers or God?

[@BuildingHisHouse]

Everyone claims with an air of superiority that they do not allow experience to teach them doctrine, but rather, the text of scripture. It simply is not true. To the one, it is the revelation of the text through the valid spiritual experience that unlocks the secrets of the text that is forever closed to the one who approaches spiritual things as an academic endeavor. For the other, it is the experience, or rather, their lack of valid spiritual experience that motivates them to tear the text down to their own meager experience, rather than, from a sense personal need, or even poverty, to seek God for more of Him. This, I find, is most often the case with professional ministers whose only authority for teaching is their book learning and the diploma or bookcase that hangs from their office wall. At any rate, I believe man tends to interpret scripture, for the most part, from their own personal experience, which is the very factor that will not allow them to be convinced by the text, even when the text is clear and straightforward.

[@lukessportsacademy]

I take Storms position on this debate, however, I would never agree to debate Chris Date!! That dude has some of the best prepared opening statements I have ever seen. He’s so convincing and prepared in every debate I have ever watched him in.

[@ThemCoversMB]

I cant help my testimony. I've had a genuine experience being baptised in the Holy spirit at an altar call in 2019 and I've had toungues flow through me ever since when I decide to use it and it's given many other spiritual unexplainable experinces through it. It would be long to explain. But, I'm pro toungues of Man and of angels. And Im happy to represent that. 🙌

[@thetopcat8946]

Yeah, my opinion changed about tongues. I was taught wrongly. I don't speak in tongues although I do study Hebrew. The church is a joke

[@Yourmom-ej6kf]

You were baptized and when you came out of there water at the altar you spoke in tongues?

[@travisrosenthal398]

@@Yourmom-ej6kf reread what he said, wasn’t talking about water baptism he specifically says, “Baptized in the Holy Spirit.”

[@travisrosenthal398]

@@thetopcat8946 I would be very careful about saying the body of Christ is a joke. Remember, a couple of bad experiences in a small number of places shouldn’t be allowed to represent the whole group.

[@Yourmom-ej6kf]

@@travisrosenthal398 literally says water in the verse baptized in water and the Holy Spirit. Read any Church Father on Baptism and you’ll realize you’re wrong

[@wadep4880]

Sam Storms got destroyed. He basically continually assumes his own modern charismatic interpretation and then argues "there's no conclusive reason why my interpretation doesn't fit", whilst Chris begins by assuming the clear testimony of scripture and shows how that fits perfectly with the unclear verses in 1 Corinthians. There's a world of difference between those two approaches. And Chris masterfully dismantles all of Sam Storms' arguments, and Sam Storms' inability to keep up is his own problem.

[@Alexmld]

I have been in a church service and the pastor spoke in a tounge "the gift" Then came out and told me what I had been doing and was thinking and was worried about at that time, and said a few word to help me. The gift of interpretation is to unbelievers why because they will be told by the spirit their sins and repent making this to hard. I was a skeptic until a pastor said try I for 10 mins in prayer time for three months and tell me it's not real. The amount of miraculous things that happened to me in that 3 months would take me an hour to write.

[@oesso]

You did not make any sense.

[@thelordisthespirit]

Interestingly enough all the people who don't speak in tongues agree with Chris

[@ProphetGreg94]

Right? Because they are bound by their unbelief, traditions, and lack of experience.

[@surenshrestha6405]

When Dr. Sam said he doesn't know if anyone before the 1900s claimed tongues to mean unintelligible language and briefly shared about Agnes Ozman, it blew me off! I've not heard why they have changed their definition of tongues and the public Shame of their claims of having languages in their disposal coming out in newspapers back then! To justify a paganlike gibberish biblical term has to be changed ? Gimme a break!

[@ganeshrupi9210]

Brother Sam, speaking in tongues is speaking in a known language, don't allow Satan to mislead you

[@regularstan6212]

Im not a fan of debates as they tend to discuss their theological positions, i prefer more expository conversations that discuss other potential interpretations. Bottom line both sides are trying to follow the scripture alone as a source of inspiration.

[@Jeffmacaroni1542]

I had an overweight Pastor once say, IF you don't speak in unknown tongues you haven't been baptised in the spirit and you need this power, I though to myself, Maybe he can use this power to help him lose some weight, I've met many who speak in unknown language in church then live like the devil the rest of the week. I'll watch the debate and go from there God not man has chosen to not give me this gift.

[@halleylujah247]

I think Dr. Storm had the better logical argument overall. However he was not prepared and did not have a lot of information to back up his stance. Chris was more prepared and presented a better case as far as amount of studies and ability to articulate his stance. Both were unprofessional in taking cheap shots at Cameron. You can disagree with Cameron's stance this was not the time to address your disagreements.

[@CapturingChristianity]

Tbf, I don’t think that Dr. Storms was taking cheap shots.

[@jimmyprice9104]

Where, exactly, did Sam take a cheap shot?

[@halleylujah247]

@@jimmyprice9104 1hr39 min mark.

[@ezekielizuagie7496]

Dr Storm seems to me like a "polite" James White calling Catholicism a cult that elevates Mary to the level of Christ... Are these people serious? Not to mention Chris Date's opening thanking God for "Protestantism" why come on the channel if you have such a problem... I think Cameron should set up a debate if they want to debate Catholicism on pints with Aquinas or elsewhere if they're interested... Rather than for them to come on his channel and take cheap shots at him

[@ezekielizuagie7496]

@@CapturingChristianity Hey Cameron... Going forward, I think it would be helpful to get your guests to leave your Journey to Catholicism out of it...if that's not the subject of discussion. It's disingenuous not to mention uncharitable.

[@surenshrestha6405]

1. Chris argued one understands what he is saying - storm didn’t rebut - he understood it very late When they don’t understand it becomes a sign he said 2. Then this should not be presented as judgment thus do not speak in public My question- with the interpretation it is to be practiced! What about then? Is it a sign now or since they understand it, it is not? Also, Storms seems to confuse this and Acts 2. He uses Acts 2 at times to support his claim and leaves it out by saying it is a different thing. Paul practiced tongues does not have to be gibberish since he says he prays with mind and heart- they both seem to leave this part out 1 Cor.14-15 If language is known to the speaker previously it is not a miracle and a gift! When this happens one just speaks in a certain moment and understands in his head what he is saying- but another miracle is when someone interprets what is being said and what that speaker is understanding in his mind to the audience present. 3. Luke writing identically like Paul of Xenoglossia is a little confused or solved with another speculation by saying within a decade or more the meaning might have been changed. 4. Storm ignores the history altogether which is a concern. Pentecostalism copied it from cult! It seems they copied it from cults historically!

[@jeremeydwinell1316]

I personally do not speak in glossalia tongues but I have to admit Dr.Storm argument was much better from the text ..Chris seemed to be emotional and focused on personal attack like accusations but his substance was lacking for all his material

[@ProphetGreg94]

I agree with you. On point. 👌

[@southpawhammer8644]

I've recently converted Catholic from Assemblies of God and I still speak in tongues. I've gotten some funny looks to say the least, LoL 🤣

[@paulsutton5951]

If you mean " I mumble in gibberish" then the strange looks are most likely cuz you're practicing kundalini in a Bible church. Kundalini gibberish is no different from charismatic gibberish. So..anyone would think it's strange to hear in a Bible church....including a practicing Hindu who was visiting your church for the first time. However if you're speaking actual languages then the strange looks are looks of awe and amazement. What other languages have you been given ??

[@TheConor43]

​@@paulsutton5951legendary comment 👌🏻

[@yeshuaneitheristheresalvat8018]

The very sad thing is tongues, signs, miracles, and wonders are what is the object and NOT JESUS! Tongues, healing, and prophecy has ceased in the sence for the purpose that it was intended for, and used by the Spirit in the early church. I have noticed that those that seek this, live a life of exhaustion, and are VERY, VERY, and I see, and mean, and experiance from them first hand, very EMOTIONALLY SHATTERED AND FEEBLE. BELIEVERS WANT POWER, AND TRY TO MANUFACTURE IT. IT ALLWAYS FIZZELS OUT TO NOTHING, LEAVING THEM DISSALOUSIONED, AND DEPRESSED. CHRIST IS NOT THEIR OBJECT!

[@Lisa-ty5xw]

Historically, it seems those who advocate and practice tongues are a bit wacky in the rest of their doctrine, with the exception of Sam Storms. You can’t really argue with me. Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones said in one of his sermons that Paul admitted he spoke in tongues more than all of them. Doesn’t that indicate that we can’t speak or pray in tongues at will like we see today. (ie., turn it on, then turn it off)

[@israelnitta]

What is the Catholic perspective on this topic of tongues?

[@BasilTU]

Hello Israel, you can check out this vid on Sensus Fidelium channel "charismatic gifts: the gift of tongues". The Church teaches that Speaking in Tongues is a charismatic gift just like raising the dead and healing the sick. But we have to understand what it actually means to speak in tongues.

[@BasilTU]

You can use this link though for the video kzbin.info/www/bejne/d3bYnGaFrtSGoNE

[@yeshuaneitheristheresalvat8018]

Hey Chris its not "your congragation", but 1 expression of the whole body of Christ on earth.

[@michalmarek7691]

wow, for a "doctor" and "expert in the matter" (he wrote books about it) dr Sam Storms totally failed in this debate. How can you write a book on tongues and then turns out you didn't even thoroughly considered/refuted the opposing view? And i speak this as a sort of pentecostal. Looks more like Storms wrote this books just to justify what he already believes rather than do a study of a topic.

[@EnHacore1]

What debate were you listening to? All Chris Date does is bable again and again making up stupid arguments such as a person that knows 2 languages, can't translate from one to another. Is this the guy you are praising? Are you that superficial to not see thru Chris's nonsense?

[@libcanbe2474]

@@EnHacore1you are biased

[@RoyceVanBlaricome]

Overall a good debate. One final word. Maybe I missed it but I didn't hear 1st Cor. 13:1 addressed at all. That seems to me to say there is a tongue of men and of angels. What I didn't hear from Chris is his Scriptural reference and and reasoning as to why a tongue of angels no longer exists. All in all I'd say there was no abundantly clear winner but I'd have to give the nod to and checkmark in the Win column to Sam.

[@tomtemple69]

that verse is not talking about a tongue of angels, that is a classic misinterpretation of that verse to justify "heavenly languages" read the verse immediately after: If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. is Paul saying it's possible to know all mysteries and all knowledge and all faith as to remove mountains? Paul is being hyperbolic, if you're the most spiritual person in the history of the world yet have not love, you are useless

[@RoyceVanBlaricome]

@@tomtemple69 //that verse is not talking about a tongue of angels// False. //that is a classic misinterpretation of that verse to justify "heavenly languages" read the verse immediately after// False. Read the verses immediately before that. "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way." (1Co 12:29-31 ESV) //Paul is being hyperbolic// False. You have not rightly divided the Word. Chapter 13 is actually a continuation of Chapter 12. For your logic to be true ALL those other gifts he mentions would have to be nonexistent as well and he clearly says they are NOT. Prophecy, for example, being the very next gift he mentions and that's NOT hyperbole.

[@tomtemple69]

@@RoyceVanBlaricome first of all, yes it is a hyperbole, read the verse right after that If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. according to your interpretation of verse 1, you are saying that verse 2 means that someone can know ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and have ALL faith that simply is not true, again, this verse along with verse 1 are speaking hyperbolically no one with the gift of prophecy knows all mysteries and knowledge and using a bad translation of 2 timothy to justifiy DIVIDING the word of God is just a terrible hermeneutic, that's not that the verse means 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. NASB 1995 is agreed upon by a majority of scholars to be the most accurate word for word translation ESV too: 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. the word in Greek used is ὀρθοτομοῦντα meaning Gloss: to handle correctly, guide on a straight path Definition: to cut straight; to set forth truthfully, without perversion, or distortion, 2 Tim. 2:15* literally the opposite of what you're doing right now you misinterpret 2 timothy to mean literally dividing Scripture and then you use that to justify cutting a verse out of context to justify your misinterpretation because it supports your argument just like how the pentecostals who though they were speaking in tongues went out to the nations and showed up and no one had any idea what they were saying so they came back and said "oh its not a foreign language so it must be "angelic" christiancourier.com/articles/what-are-the-tongues-of-angels-in-1-corinthians-13-1 blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2016/04/12/early-pentecostal-speaking-tongues-foreign-languages/ and where in the Bible are there any angels speaking these so called "angelic languages"? they aren't humans, there isn't an angel culture and civilization, they are all servants of God and God speaks to people in their own language every time an angel ever spoke to a person, old and new testament, the person understood them are you saying that all those people have the gift of interpretation of "angelic languages"? in revelation 7: 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” your multiple interpretation errors are caused by you having an idea and then interpreting the text to fit your opinions and ideas when is the 1st occurance of tongues? in Acts 2, where everyone outside could hear galileans speaking in the foreigners languages that's what I base my view of tongues on, what is plainly written in Scripture your idea of a "heavenly angelic language" is no where in the Bible and is imposed upon 1 corinthians 14 my idea of what tongues are is from the Bible itself in Acts where is you idea coming from? a pentecostal in the early 1900s who couldn't explain why their "gift of tongues" wasn't like it was described in Acts? if you're a continuationist, you believe all the gifts in Acts continued to today, so why don't they look exactly as they do in Acts? I am a biblical continuationist, the gifts should be identical to how they were in new testament, known foreign languages(acts 2) and prophecy that is inerrant (Acts 11 and 21, Agabus' 2 prophecies did come to pass)

[@RoyceVanBlaricome]

@@tomtemple69 First of all, no, it's NOT hyperbole. I read the verse right after it. You quoted it silly. LOL Now do what I said and go read the verses right before it which I quoted. You're doing the same thing there that the Egalitarians do with Eph,. 5:21. Oh, and btw, the "so as to remove mountains" isn't hyperbole. It's a metaphor. //according to your interpretation of verse 1, you are saying that verse 2 means that someone can know ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and have ALL faith// No, I'm not. Error #2. //that simply is not true, again, this verse along with verse 1 are speaking hyperbolically// It's not true again because I didn't and am not saying it and it's not hyperbole. Error #3. //no one with the gift of prophecy knows all mysteries and knowledge// That's NOT what the verse says. The funny thing is to watched folks like you that are so hung up on rationalizing and justifying your falsehoods that you twist Scripture like a pretzel with your literary gymnastics to make it says what it doesn't. I'm not gonna take the time and space to address each of your falsehoods. I'm simply gonna say you need to slow down, take a deep breath, and 3rd Grade Reading Comprehension course, and a lesson on basic hermeneutics, and then try again. Any 3rd Grader with a C+ average3 in Reading Comprehension could tell you that Paul is simply doing the EXACT SAME thing in 1st Cor. 12:28-13:3 that he does in Eph. 5:19-21. MANY people like to mark out 1st Cor. 13 and call it the Love chapter but that's not what it is. It can NOT be separated from Chapter 12 and is simply Paul saying what he's says many times. Whether it be the days one celebrates, what food they eat, or whatever. Paul is just saying "in all things love". He's telling the Corinthians that when it comes to gifts let Love for one another be a driving factor. //and using a bad translation of 2 timothy to justifiy DIVIDING the word of God is just a terrible hermeneutic, that's not that the verse means.// LOL I literally used the ESV which you cited as good in your reply! LOL And yes, that too IS what the verse means. //NASB 1995 is agreed upon by a majority of scholars to be the most accurate word for word translation// PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or stand guilty of employing the Appeal To Authority fallacy. You might wanna checkout the NET. the NT Senior Editor for that was Daniel B. Wallace. I would think most would say that he is a bona fide "scholar". I happen to have about 40 translations in my eSword. I think the NASB is a really good one but not sure I'd say it's the best or "most accurate word for word translation". Let alone "most accurate". I haven't got the NASB 2020 and haven't taken the time to see what the changes were so I can't speak to that. But I can tell you with ABSOLUTELY CERTAINTY that I did NOT use a bad translation NOR do what you claim I did. That IS a FALSE ACCUSATION and FALSE WITNESS. //the word in Greek used is ὀρθοτομοῦντα meaning Gloss: to handle correctly, guide on a straight path Definition: to cut straight; to set forth truthfully, without perversion, or distortion, 2 Tim. 2:15* literally the opposite of what you're doing right now// That's a LIE. It's EXACTLY what I was doing. Now get the GIANT Sequoia Tree outta your eye socket, get outta the Flesh, get saved if need be, and then go practice what you preach. //you misinterpret 2 timothy to mean literally dividing Scripture and then you use that to justify cutting a verse out of context to justify your misinterpretation because it supports your argument// No. Your OPINION is duly noted and summarily dismissed because, well, it's just that and MORE IMPORTANTLY God says otherwise. And you have foolishly just made yourself an abomination to God (Pro. 6:16-19) in the process. Now get the GIANT Sequoia Tree outta your eye socket, get outta the Flesh, get saved if need be, and then go practice what you preach. I interpret 2nd Tim. 2:15 to do EXACTLY what it says. And to use the definition YOU provided: to cut straight, to set forth TRUTHFULLY, without distortion. As YOU are doing. I don't know where you got your definition from and it's not a bad one but it's not the best. Like many Greek words the definition is found in a pictorial fashion and the word most literally means to cut a straight line or to dissect. Paul may have used it there in light of the FACT that there were no verse numbers, lines, paragraphs or even punctuation in the original writings. It just so happens that this is a case of a double entendre at work. It is not only the case of rightly dividing the word for proper understanding but also just happens to be a case of Chapter dividing as well. You were just so quick to stand in opposition and prove me wrong and so full of the Flesh that you obviously failed to see that. //just like how the pentecostals who though they were speaking in tongues went out to the nations and showed up and no one had any idea what they were saying so they came back and said "oh its not a foreign language so it must be "angelic" // Nope,. Another false accusation. Another false witness,. And a bit of Boogeyman Fallacy. //and where in the Bible are there any angels speaking these so called "angelic languages"?// Smh. I gave you the verse. Let's try another translation: "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." (1Co 13:1 NET) /they aren't humans, there isn't an angel culture and civilization, they are all servants of God and God speaks to people in their own language// And? So? Again, you've shown your bias and Flesh are clouding your vision and understanding. It's right there in plain sight. There are tongues (languages) of men and tongues (languages) of angels. //every time an angel ever spoke to a person, old and new testament, the person understood them// Well, duh. Ya think? It'd be pretty silly to speak to someone as a messenger in a language they couldn't understand. //are you saying that all those people have the gift of interpretation of "angelic languages"?// Nope. // in revelation 7: 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”// And? So? Maybe the angels were speaking in their language and John was given the gift of interpretation and recorded them in his language. Ya know, sort of like when the translators give us Scripture from the Greek in English. LOL //your multiple interpretation errors are caused by you having an idea and then interpreting the text to fit your opinions and ideas// Now get the GIANT Sequoia Tree outta your eye socket, get outta the Flesh, get saved if need be, read that again, and then go practice what you preach. Smh

[@tomtemple69]

@@RoyceVanBlaricome wow, yeah theres no helping you, i've shown your error time and time again, you just deny what you don't want to believe and you insult my reading comprehension skills, and straight up deny the original greek text, the new testament was written in greek, not English the only people who interpret a hyperbole as literal in 1 corinthians 13:1 are those who use it support their unbiblical interpretation all your arguments are just "no, nuh uh, false, you're not saved, get the tree out of your eye" not a single argument used Scripture, in fact you double down on your misinterpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:1 and 1 Timothy 2 fun fact: the original manuscripts don't have chapters and verses, those were added for referencing certain passages so 1 corinthians 13:1-3 are all together in one statement, and all 3 statements are hyperbole you're literally dividing the word, taking it out of context maybe you should read all of 1 corinthians 13, instead of attacking someone hatefully because they called out your error it's easier to fool someone than it is to convince them they've been fooled while you're babbling your gibberish(tongues are meant to be used to edify others btw, read 1 Corinthians 12 and 14) God have mercy on your soul, professing yourself wise you have become a fool who knows what other false teaching you'll fall into, who even knows you're saved with how much you love to misinterpret and take the bible out of context, I sincerely hope God opens your eyes and removes your pride cuz the way you are going leads to destruction

[@asmrjeweler9237]

If God is going to give a person a message in a foreign language, it doesn't make sense that it will contain idioms and cultural nuances associated with that language that the speaker or the hearers will have trouble understanding. God's purpose is clarity. He will speak concepts that the hearers are familiar with and could be easily translated by the speaker - who presumably shares the same cultural background of the hearers. The quote about translation difficulties presented here is much more relevant when you are translating literature .

[@jefferywalker2206]

Did he say that he felt like tongues made the church look ignorant to the world, so he took the side that would be more palatable to get more people to buy into it? Not many things about the Christian faith makes the Christian look "reasonable"... not good reason for me... people pleasing is NEVER the right reason

[@hornplayer1228]

Paul is writing about the way The Spirit Of Truth is manifest in the early church. It is a real language - the preferred method of delivery being in the native tongue of the audience. It is actually the Prophetic Gift and has nothing to do with foretelling future events which was known then as word of knowledge or clairvoyance. The purpose as described by Jesus was to teach all the things He was unable to reveal during His short ministry, either because His mission was still incomplete or they did not have sufficient level of intellectual understanding at that time. Which lays the foundation for the belief that it had to be an understandable language, and not the emotional psychobabble exhibited in modern day churches. The prophet would be a person with a special gift of being able to temporarily remove himself from his physical body so the Ministering Spirit could take over the body and use the vocal cords to speak to the audience. Today they would be known as trance mediums. God's laws are universal and Paul gave ample instruction as to how to determine a manifesting spirit was from God or not. Occasionally a spirit would speak in a foreign tongue, perhaps for the benefit of one or two persons in the audience who were not familiar with the native language. In any case Paul tried to discourage this behaviour - preferring the use of the native language so that all could benefit. One of the main reasons the gift of prophesy was suppressed was because God's Messengers would speak the truth or remain silent. When they saw behaviour developing in the community that was displeasing to God they would reprimand the miscreants - particularly community leaders who were abusing their power. This did not go down well and lead to suppression of this type of teaching a few centuries Later.

[@williambrewer]

I think it was zenololia but the tongue speaker doesn't know what he himself is saying (unless he also has the gift of interpretation). And I don't discount that they might have spoken tongues of angels at times. But that would just be one language out of the many earthly languages that the Christians would have been miraculously speaking.

[@rjthomasindyusa]

I find it incredibly smug and prideful when Christians debate tongues and discount all of the supernatrual experiences and daily usage of tongues by their brothers and sisters in Christ. They treat us as if we are all crazy. I was saved for 5 years before I recieved the gift. I was very cautious about alot to the charismatic stuff.... but I remained open and curious. I want anything God has to offer me while I'm in this cruel world. God eventually brought the right peole into my life and slowly exposed me to the supernatrual side of things..... and I'm eternally thankful....

[@thejohn17project15]

Christians who adopt a materialistic and naturalistic mindset have a hard time with things that are supernatural. The impulse is to explain it away and diminish it into nothing more than normal human means with maybe a little or no help from the Holy Spirit. Chris Date keeps saying that translation is hard but that's really not true. It's hard for people who grow up in a single language to do that but in the first century Roman empire it was very common for people to write in Greek, speak in Latin and also speak in their native language. People who are immersed into multiple languages have a much easier time translating then those who learn a language after they have only known a single language. His argument falls flat. I have personally known people who grew up with multiple languages and they do not have a hard time translating.

[@ProphetGreg94]

I agree. I am pastor who disciplines many, many different people from all sorts of different countries and continents, and they never need to “pray to interpret.” Whether from South Africa, Hungary, Netherlands, South America, Philippines, etc., they all articulate their ideas into English pretty well when we meet online.

[@yeshuaneitheristheresalvat8018]

Has anyone else noticed that the majority of their texts proofs are actually not text proofs, but all based on their assumptions. They speak in nothing but assumptions. Christ is NOT THEIR OBJECT. I AM LEAVING NIW BECAUSE THIS IS NOT EDIFYING, AND THEY ARE NOT EDIFYING THE BODY.

[@WC_Refugee]

The passage (s) in 1 Corinthians I think is better understood from a historical Apostolic perspective. If one assumes that the New Testament church was a proto evangelical community then this passage would be confusing. But if the early church was a liturgical one then perhaps this passage is talking about liturgy (prayers) in Hebrew or Aramaic or Greek and later latin. That's how I understand this passage. But at the very least the fact that this modern charismatic reading comes out of nowhere with no explanation or foreshadowing in scripture then disappears for 1900 years is very odd.

[@givethanks6714]

The most logical is that every mention is xenolalia, except 1 Cor 13 also mentions tongues of angles, and therefore, we need take that in to be fair. Meaning both is possible.

[@BasilTU]

@West coast refugee Thanks for this perspective. I'm understanding the whole thing better. It makes more sense to look at 1 Corinthians 14: 1- 25 in the context of the liturgy.

[@BasilTU]

By the way, you can search for this video "charismatic gifts: the gift of tongues" on Sensus Fidelium channel. It helped clear up a lot for me.

[@BasilTU]

@@givethanks6714 Tongue of angels as used in 1 Corinthians 13 has no connection at all with making sounds and unfamiliar syllables. I assume tongue of angels should be something akin to heavenly music... something beautiful. In that passage, by the way, St. Paul was talking about the extreme of things: - understand ALL mysteries, ALL knowledge, ALL faith; - give away ALL I have, deliver my body to be BURNED; - tongue of ANGELS; It makes sense that "tongue of angels" should be something so beautiful that it is out of this world...an extreme (one could say, extremely beautiful music or something like that)

[@tomtemple69]

@@givethanks6714 1 corinthians is not saying there are tongues of angels if that's true, then its possble to know all mysteries and knowledge and have all faith as to remove mountains in verse 2

[@lupeguadalupe9311]

The direct translation of the word for tongues in first Corinthians 12 is γλωσσῶν, which literally means unknown tongues that cannot be obtained through natural means. Enough said

[@tomtemple69]

no, its the genitive plural of tongue/language 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” that same word, glosson is used here, its talking about languages and John heard the angels speaking, how did he understand it if theyre "angelic and heavenly languages" ?

[@brando3342]

Probably should have defined how each person is using the word “understand” or “understanding” at the outset. That’s where they were speaking past each other most of the time. “Jesus Christ died for your sins” - Had someone who’s native language is English heard that for the first time, and never heard anything about Christianity before, it would be completely reasonable to say they likely wouldn’t understand what it means, even though they understand the content of the sentence, as a merely English sentence.

[@RoyceVanBlaricome]

Just wanna point out something as an observation because I've seen it countless times from Chris. He reads something from some guy that's an "expert linguist" and then says "And I"m not gonna argue with an expert linguist." Sam then says "Well, I'm not an expert linguist." To which then Chris then makes a head maneuver and a smirk like "Well, there ya go." The argument was a fallacious appeal to authority and is a Strawman. It strayed from the text. Sam stayed with the text and it's just as logical that a supernatural gift to speak in an unknown tongue would need to be interpreted by someone. Sam bore this out in other texts. Furthermore, even if there was an interpreter, it makes good logical sense that the one speaking should pray for interpretation in order to confirm or reject the interpretation given by another. I didn't hear that brought up at all.

[@jeffengstrom8657]

Both the real and the false are being dealt with in Corinth. Shadows of the real gift come through as Paul refers to it through the use of the word "language" in the plural: "tongues" 👅 👅 👅 👅, meaaning of course multiple languages. His references to it in the singular: "unknown tongue" or "tongue" have nothing to do with the Acts version of tongues. And I mean zero, nothing, nada, zilch. Both these guys don't get that, hence they will be forever stuck is this twilight zone of vagueness. Corinth doesn't know this difference either...Paul was counting on it!!!

[@EnHacore1]

You know a guy is dishonest when he interprets "one builds himself up" as a negative in the given context. Brother Chris, how can you live with yourself lying in this manner?

[@partlysimpson5154]

Why we need to debate over word of God? We little nugget brains... we need to pray and ask Holy Spirit to guide into the truths and mysteries

[@jeffengstrom8657]

There's only one reason for tongues. It is a sign to them that believe not. Now the big question no one ever asks : believe not what? If you say the gospel you will be clueless as far as Acts 8,10 and 19.

[@ganeshrupi9210]

Not once did Jesus ever thought his disciples to speak in tongues, but always thought them about the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, expect sufferings, sins, repentance, salvation, forgiveness, love, God's sovereignity man's responsibility, just to name a few, and that is what we must do, go preach, teach, baptise, plant churches, do it in known languages so the people will understand what you are saying and so they can receive salvation, not speaking gibberish and put on a show as if you are so spiritual, alĺ true believers received the same Holy Spirit the moment they accepted Jesus Christ as savour into their lives, where the Holy Spirit will never depart from them, so stop faking the people and preach God's word expository preaching Amen ❤

[@Mathetesofscripture]

Yes. Tongues is likely just multiple languages. Jesus spoke to Romans, J--s, and Samaritans. Probably all in different languages, and so that is the gift of tongues.

[@BasilTU]

For anyone interested, I believe this video helps to explain the actual nature of tongues. Search for "Charismatic gifts: the gift of tongues" on the Sensus Fidelium channel. The charism of tongues exists, just like other charisms such as healing the sick and raising the dead. But it seems to have been grossly misunderstood. I believe "tongue of angels" should be something so heavenly, so beautiful. Not sure I can say the same of what I've heard people claim to be speaking or praying in tongues.

[@TKK0812]

Whether or not it’s beautiful to you has nothing to do with whether God finds it beautiful. His thoughts and ways are not like ours

[@BasilTU]

@@TKK0812 Everything about God is True, Good and Beautiful. You can see this in all of God's creation. We humans have something of God in us that helps us recognise Truth, Goodness and Beauty, though to different degrees in each person. So, something that is ugly to us is most unlikely going to be beautiful for God. By the way, have you tried watching the video I referenced above?

[@BasilTU]

@@TKK0812 By the way, this is the context of my reference to "tongue of angels" Tongue of angels as used in 1 Corinthians 13 has no connection at all (in the passage) with making sounds and unfamiliar syllables. I assume tongue of angels should be something akin to heavenly music... something beautiful. In that passage, St. Paul was talking about the extreme of the things he listed: - understand ALL mysteries, ALL knowledge, ALL faith; - give away ALL I have, deliver my body to be BURNED; - tongue of ANGELS; It makes sense that "tongue of angels" should be something so beautiful that it is out of this world...an extreme.

[@brianfarley926]

My wife’s family are charismatic Christian’s they go to non denominational but raised Pentecostal. My wife and I are Catholic. I’ve heard her cousin speak in so called “tongues,” quite frankly I was pretty skeptical. My understanding of “tongues” in Acts was a way of saying the Apostles could speak in any language to spread the “Good News.”

[@TKK0812]

@@BasilTU This just isn't true. I already quoted where God Himself says that His ways are not our own and His thoughts are not our own. Many people struggle with the problem of evil, the concept of eternal judgement, many parts of God's law and moral code on and on, but God says they are wonderful and perfect. I agree that we are indwelt by His spirit so in large part, we will begin to see things as God does, but we still wrestle with the flesh. For instance, the Psalms are replete with commands to dance before the Lord, to sing a new song, to shout to the Lord, to lie prostrate, to raise our hands etc. In my church family, we practice these things in worship and believe they are Biblical, beautiful expressions of worship towards God. However, many, many born again Christians would/do feel uncomfortable doing any of those things and think them to not be beautiful. What matters is what scripture says, not what we think is beautiful.

[@haydongonzalez-dyer2727]

Great

[@anthonynickerson4957]

1 thes 1:5 for our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power and in the holy ghost and in much assurance(heres the kicker)as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. The gift of tounges or the the gifts of the spirit was a gift to the apostles and the early believers so the people they were preaching too knew they were of god because of their power and the gifts of the holy spirit. Not to use it as a tool to keep people bound and begging for it. I read jeremiah 23 today and all i can say it was a direct call/prophecy to the charismatic church of today and it scared me. Theres either truth or error and we must pray and be diligent and knowing what side we are on. Doesnt surprise me it took the antichrist so long to come with a false pentecost movement but as you all heard in the beginning even the early church goers didnt believe in the gibberish and that was 70 uears after christ not long after revelations was written. Its in the history kjv was printed and then a million versions came after who knows anything anymore they rewrite gods word every day add and subtract from it. This wicked generation seeks a sign? I trust the work that was done on the cross and the greatest miracle we all could ever ask for happened, and that jesus conquered death and arose on that third day we need to hear nothing more than christ crucified. We must not exceed what is written and we must pray always for wisdom we are all learning, theres gonna come a time when they will not follow sound doctrine and will have itching ears.

[@jlar1984]

The guy with a beard sounds so smart but can’t interpret easy passages. It’s what happens when you try and debunk what the Bible actually says.

[@manofgod3080]

At min 39:54...Chris sounds like someone who has never read the Bible. When Moses threw down his staff to become a serpent as a sign, and Pharoah's magicians did the same and they even duplicated a couple more of the Moses miracles, how did that negate the real activity of The Most High done through Moses? The Anti-Christ will also have the power to perform many lying wonders & miracles.

[@christineding4262]

Maybe he never experienced it. I got the tongues in my bedroom asking and begging for God for forgiveness then my mouth is moving uncontrollably i didnt know what it was then its in the acts if you receive the Holy Spirit it doesnt make sense but its in the bible you cant fit that in your brain as the Holy Spirit gives you utterance after that i walked in the gift of Healing God is glorified

[@julielemker2131]

Then in Numbers 22:28, we learn that “the LORD opened the donkey’s mouth

[@ajafca7153]

I am more on Chris' side on this one, although I agree his explanation of the reason for the gift of interpretation to be unconvincing. I gotta be honest, if you are not an American, tongues are kind of weird.

[@aperson4057]

My bias is on Sam's side but I agree, Date's hermeneutic on the gift of interpretation I think is pretty poor and ad hoc. Tongues speaking is practiced around the world being more common in Latin America, Africa, and Asia (both amongst Christians and some pagan practices). Tongues seems to be seen as odd in Western nations compared to other majority world nations. I think this would make sense in the Bible, since the Bible wasn't written in a Western culture.

[@tomtemple69]

Sam Storms uses his own interpretation and opinion on tongues to justify "heavenlt languages" and "private prayer language" i base my opinion of tongues based on the previous occurrence of tongues in the Bible: in Acts he's pulling this out of thin air from his own interpretation Chris and I and many others base our interpretation of the Bible on other passages in the Bible Sam Storms imposes his own rules on tongues and interpretation by saying that if the gift of tongues is languages, then it has to be one the crowd can understand(why would the gift of interpretation be needed?) and interpretation of something u never learned IS supernatural you don't get a gift of interpreting something you already know...

[@godsaysministrieshouseoffi4885]

1 Corinthians 14:2 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. "In the Spirit he speaks Mysteries..." 1 Corinthians 14:14 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. So, it's a language that only God understands... a language of Mysteries between your Spirit and God. Meaning that the devil that knows all language on earth, has No clue what you saying either!

[@Converterguy]

Tongues of angels? Didn't they speak Hebrew and Greek? They spoke in the Bible quite often and their language was understood by the hearer.

[@EnHacore1]

The debate should have stopped at minute 50 and Chris Date should have been kicked out of the debate for making the ridiculous argument that the gift of interpretation of tongues is to help the person translate better, even thou he understands the foreign language 😂 This is ridiculous, how does this guy get so much traction with people when he spits out such nonsense?

[@matthewlucas1846]

Saint Joseph terror of demons pray for us.