Debunking Clichés about INTJs

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[@AlburyShaffer]

Ren I’d like to hear your thoughts on what it means to “develop” a function. That is, we often say things like “until in intj develops te and fi they can’t do XYZ”. But it also seems impossible for anyone to live their life in any capacity without the ability to make decisions at all, which is in essence what the judgment functions do. Does this mean maybe before a function is developed it still “judges” just not well? What are your thoughts?

[@Elodie_N_INTJ_Analyzes]

Beautifully explained, you right ! I wish other INTJs watch it. The alienation & not achiever, is amplified when we are enneatype 5 : we may feel disconnected, detached from everyone, everything & ourselves, the loss of contact with everything, not alive, refusing to participate in reality/life. Feeling not human, lost, not caring about most of things, not knowing what they want, impostor syndrome, seeing how no one care about them. It's not well perceived by society & most of people to have ambition, to want to change things and to say what we think, to think differently. Te may have been repressed by others, or by ourselves by fear. Fi repressed too, by fear to be hurt, and when others expect us to be like everyone. And few may understand our Ni observations, we may be reluctant to share them, fear to be misunderstood. And most of the time, no one cares. Not every INTJ have ambition & goals, will, determination, maybe most want a simple life. Mostly in an "Ni state", an empty feeling of Ni unfulfilled. We need the depth & to fulfill it, which is not easy to find meaning/depth in things & people. Like every type, taping in our 2nd & 3rd function, is not easy, require energy, and need to recharge. But it's worth it, for our development & happiness, it probably make us reconnect with our soul, and by extend the rest of the world. Be reconnected to all the parts of our functioning/self, all the functions. When developed, integrated & balanced (Te Fi) (and Ti Fe considered) INTJ become amazing, holding their potential, and more embodied. We embody Ni, not Te, initially we are not achievers, but we can become it if we want, if we tap into this Te power. Most of the time, we achieve just the minimum, the essential, under our full potential. The clichés & stereotypes, often seem to be an ideal version of types, or the immature/undeveloped version, which is useful to begin but limit the development.

[@InterestsInEverything]

INTJ here: you mentioned feedback, so here goes. I think you're right about the INFJ and INTJ being quite similar (kindred spirits). Like you said, especially when young, that Ni tends to be most of what is developed, and it is harder to see any Te in an INTJ. INTJ children AND the INFJ children both grow up with the Ni mindset that they will fight through anything, they will be the most resilient, they will never quit or give up. Most "INTJs" on the internet are not INTJs at all (not even just underdeveloped). They prioritize things in a completely different way (I think it's easier to categorize the functions as priorities). While there's nothing wrong with that, they've idolized "being an INTJ" for so long that they will refuse to accept they are a different type, and they dig a bigger hole for themselves trying to be something they're not. But it makes sense: people are vain. Regarding developing Te: an INTJ has to beat back the Fi. Unfortunately, underdeveloped INTJs are using their Fi way too much. They have to realize that their Fi needs the actual reasons (Te) in order to be valuable, otherwise that Fi is solely faith and easily picked apart. Most INTJ children are very trusting because of their sincere Fi. But as soon as the real world hits, they get taken advantage of, which hopefully spurs them to use their Te. But ultimately, they have to recognize that their Fi is not enough. That's the way I see it, anyhow. I'm an INTJ married to an INFJ. It was a deliberate choice.

[@snipergaming2639]

Hi Ren, I agree that a lot of underdeveloped INTJs who haven’t fully integrated their Te function can be quite aloof and detached due to their NI, and thus aren’t the same as the typical INTJ descriptions. In this respect they can be quite similar to INFJs due to their more concrete extroverted function being suppressed. Without the te, they have no physical framework for which to go about the world, leading to increased subjectivity, similar to that of INFJs as they have the strongest subjective intuition of all other types, due to their fe function.

[@Irma0101]

You're right. It is mostly Ni + Fi, and Te is optional, usually, only developed if situation forces, Se pressures. Or in special, better case, is when Fi actually matures enough to be deeply convicted, then it can stimulate and push Te forward. I dare say, Te is the last function to develop in INTJ. By order of frequency or "daily living", it is Ni + Fi. However, when Te actually grows, it is like having "rain" in a desert, a very valued function in INTJ! When Te shows up finally, INTJ is transformed dramatically. It becomes like "architect, mastermind" stereotypes. Many INTJs will never see that day. I usually discern INTJ vs. INFJ (like what you said too) : Te is optional to INFJ, but it’s done 😢for INTJ if not developed.

[@covetouscorvus]

The average INTJ description you’ll find online paints the type as a socially introverted ENTJ, and then people are surprised when the average real life example of an INTJ is not a pseudo Te dominant type. This view is only further reinforced by stereotypes and media that often enforce the focus on Te and completely neglect Fi and often just caricature the INTJ’s usage of Ni as being future oriented planners while totally ignoring the holistic nature of the function, to the point that INFJs often seem like the only true Ni dominant types. People seem shocked to learn that in terms of disposition, INTJs can be quite akin to their INTP cousins, which is not the same as all of the depictions of them as hyper goal driven and achievement focused at the cost of all else, which again is really more of a Te dominant trait, though of course INTJs can lean into this if their Ni is fixated on some certain external goal that they have envisioned. INTJs, especially those who are enneagram type 5s, which tends to be quite common, are are lot less practical in nature, more focused on their passions and intellectual interests, gaining knowledge for the sake of it and to refine and shape the way they see the world. It’s not all about burning the midnight oil to pursue some sort of tangible goal, and even when that is the case, it doesn’t have to be so grand in scope, it can even be focused on self development and transformation. I wish more emphasis was put on the INTJs Ni and Fi functions rather than there being such an unrealistic skew towards Te, because it truly mischaracterizes the type. The way their relation to the feeling function is often described, you’d think they’re all hyper repressed feeling inferior types that aren’t able to introspect or properly understand and express themselves at all, which is crazy given that the Ni-Fi combo is like the most highly introspective and self aware function combination due to its focus on the personal and collective unconscious as well as personal values.

[@covetouscorvus]

Also, thank you so much Renaud for actually emphasizing the fact there are prominently Ni and Ni-Fi focused INTJs that are highly introverted and less pragmatic in nature. This resonates with myself very strongly, and it’s also why I can struggle to relate to most common INTJ descriptions even though I clearly use that function stack. I actually originally typed as an INFP for this reason, partially due to my lack of knowledge on the intricacies of cognitive functions, and also because I recognized my more subjective and value driven approach, but I always recognized that I treaded the line between thinking and feeling, logic and sentiments/values. Disconnection from the world at large, existential isolation, dissociation, the feeling of “otherness”, these are all things that are hallmarks of my existence. Just because an INTJ has Te aux and is concerned with rational thinking, objective reasoning and applying logical frameworks to their intuitive musings does not mean we are inherently well adjusted to society and the world generally; we are still Ni dominants, after all, and being particularly introverted only exacerbates this issue. If anything, I relate way more to being highly introspective, abstract, poetic, theoretical, philosophical, and having the ability to balance subjectivity with objectivity, utilizing paradoxical reasoning and oxymorons in order to reach convergent conclusions. All things much more related to the Ni function, supplemented with aspects of Te and Fi. Se is…somewhere in the murky waters of the background, mostly just passively gathering external data to feed into Ni. The overemphasis on INTJ objectivity and being in tireless pursuit of external goals and metrics for achievement has always been lost on me and seen like such a parody of the actual type. I do realize that I fall into a camp that may be even less frequently occurring than the “average” INTJ, but just generally, the descriptions tend to be quite poor and one dimensional.

[@Dystisis]

INTJ here, I think you're spot on. INTJs stand at the edge of the abyss. ;)

[@Coneman3]

⁠​​⁠interesting. But it doesn’t stop INTJ feeling most lonely of all the types. INFJ feels most existential alienation, but for INTJ it’s loneliness I think.

[@Coneman3]

Replacing Fe/Ti with Te/Fi in INTJ we replace empathy with calculation, but in losing Ti, we have a mind that seeks understanding of ‘how things are’ to suit self (Fi). The lack of Ti is a weakness to me because it means understanding is not at the theoretical level. Less will be seen of how things can be changed. More of what IS will be seen. Ni-Fi looping can lead to selfishness while I think Te and Ni can mean good practical awareness but not intellectual rigour of Ti. Imo an INTJ will look more to what’s already been done when trying to achieve things. Ni-Ti in INFJ or Ti in INTP are better imo at deconstructing ‘what is’ and working up from theory to what might be. Look at Elon Musk making rockets. He’s not inventing the wheel is he? The lack of Fe and Ti can be the INTJs weakness. They do only what they need to do for personal success, and without doing anything radical. Mark Zuckerberg with Facebook: new but just a new use of existing technology. It’s practical, pragmatic achievement much more than theoretical and pure achievements.

[@snipergaming2639]

I agree with you. TI is better than Te because TI is subjective (I.e, looking within ect...) whereas Te is more objective, viewing pre-existing models rather than trying to innovate and create new and improved ideas for things. Generally I'd say that the introverted functions outweigh and outcompete the extroverted ones. That isn't to say they're better because all functions have their own pros and cons and in certain scenarios I'm sure Te is more advantageous, however, generally speaking, TI is more innovative and creative.

[@covetouscorvus]

I think the points you made here are pretty interesting and have some valid reasoning, but it’s interesting you didn’t highlight the benefit of an INTJs tertiary Fi as opposed to the INFJs Fe and in comparison to their Ti. I feel like the role of Fi in INTJs gets really overlooked, downplayed, and caricatured, to the point where Fi is just seen as being self interested/absorbed and the benefits that function brings akin to the Ti in INFJs (which is lauded as one of their particular strengths) is sorely missed. Seems a bit unfair to highlight one tertiary function and its benefits while ignoring the other, so I’m interested in what you think about that.

[@Coneman3]

I controversially believe the Templar set of functions is optimal and INFJ has best setup. I can’t explain more now, you’ll have to read my book, but all types have strengths and weaknesses. I just don’t believe they are all equal.

[@Coneman3]

I typed lots more but it got lost. Has anyone mastered the new YT replying ?! It’s crazy at times

[@Coneman3]

@@covetouscorvusFi in third slot is source of insecurity and I generally see Fi as too self interested. I prefer Fe/Ti to Te/Fi. I’ve not met an Fi user who wasn’t quite selfish. Ti is useful beyond the individual. Fi is just for the individual.

[@toddbryan5818]

I am an INTJ and call me arrogant if you wish I know lots about human history, philosophy, psychology, economics and political science and theory it makes me so lonely that I don't like talking to the average person or people and not just the knowledge I have its also that I'm an introvert which makes it more frustrating and it's true that most real INTJs isolate themselves from the public like Nietzsche and Tesla or are socially awkward such as Ayn Rand .

[@grumpyschnauzer]

There's a gap between an INFJ and an INTJ and if you actually pay attention to it, you can feel how large that gap is. It's a little scary personally... kind of like looking up from the bottom of a cave where the opening gets smaller towards the top. 😂 I need a moment to collect my self-esteem. Love Bruce Wayne as an archetype (coming from a non-comic non-cartoon loving lens). One of my favorites actually. But your point about INTJs don't all have well developed Te... and the same can be said about Fe but actually I view this as a reverse regression. What appears as an underdeveloped Te/Fe in Ni-doms is ACTUALLY a well developed type. Someone said in the comments [implied un/intentional] suppressed... whereas I say regressed on purpose. I was just watching The Great Gatsby (the more recent film) and realized Toby McGuire who plays Nick(i) is a very good example of an INFJ.