Dedra vs Reva: A lesson in "Sympathetic Villain" creation

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[@chrisaguilera1564]

Dedra: How to write a villain. Reva: How to Not write a villain

[@JonasGrumby-OO]

I’d say that about covers it

[@warborn_inc.]

Exactly

[@peterfmodel]

Dedra : written by talented adults, Reva : written by talentless children

[@nathank2289]

But still nowhere near as good as Mara , Thrawn, Ysanne, Kreia, or Malak. RIP EU

[@maximilianwolf2984]

lmao reva isnt a villain you need a brain

[@omegamaximus1727]

Dedra : Cunning , Intelligent and Intimidating. Reva : Raaaaargh !

[@Will_Parker]

Even worse because Reva does her "raargh" right before she tries to kill Vader lol

[@jwroot]

Not smart of her.

[@Firefox13A]

KZbin tried translate Reva… 😆

[@Tryptic214]

Reva: RAARGH! (whispers) chaos is a ladder, some try to climb it and- RAAAARGH!

[@dustymooneye5858]

@@Will_Parker "Surprise attaaaack!"

[@macwelch8599]

Dedra: one of the most competent and intelligent Imperialists in Star Wars

[@PrincessFionaYT]

In Disney Star Wars certainly. I would argue that the original imperials were all intelligent and competent.

[@macwelch8599]

@@PrincessFionaYT not the people that Vader choked to death

[@HELLBENDER77]

@@PrincessFionaYT tarkin

[@e-satan9032]

Off course she's better. She is Kathleen Kennedy, a woman trying to rank up against other stupid, slouching, smelly men (that's what the actress said, the same girl who played the nude character in the movie Monday).

[@Adrenalyn54]

Reva: One of the imperials that screams like a child the most

[@dunnagan5]

Reva: “Tell me…WHERE OBI WAN IS!!!!!!!!” Dedra: “The worst thing you can do right now is bore me.” It’s easy to see who’s better written.

[@wilkowilkins363]

Denise's acting throughout has been fabulous but this scene was amazing

[@jorenvanderark3567]

Yep. It's Reva.

[@nathank2289]

Kreia "It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards. You stole that struggle from them, cheapened it."

[@furbysimitar]

This

[@KillahMate]

Yeah, there's of course structural aspects to the writing and how the characters are conceptualized that all together makes a difference - but then (and often these kinds of analysis videos don't focus much on this part) there's just plain _better moment to moment writing._ Dialogue doesn't exist just so a character can exposit their tortured backstory, it's not there just for plot - first and foremost the audience is supposed to _enjoy it._ This is for example literally the entire reason Aaron Sorkin has a career.

[@joelpierce1453]

I like the term "Dark Nobility" to describe Luthen's speech. It's quite fitting.

[@marcosalmendras4998]

what got me to care about Deedra, was how she treated her subordinates. When she realized she was working her colleague late and told him to go home and rest, told me more about her personality than Reeva's sob story.

[@erikvarela2045]

100% Dedra's morals may not be in the right place in the bigger picture, but she has those little humanizing moments. She cares about her employees. They clearly admire her and want to do their best. Anyone who has worked multiple jobs in their life knows that working for a good boss in an environment you like--even if you don't care about the work itself--is WAY better than trying to do a job you like in an environment that makes it impossible to like. It's a humanizing element that Reva just doesn't have.

[@danieldenis8514]

During the Kenobi series, I found myself rooting for Vader to "make an example" out of Reva. During the Andor series, I was rooting for Dedra to survive.

[@joelellis7035]

Yeah, I was actually nervous that she may not survive. We'd already seen so many potentially heroic characters die rather unceremoniously in Andor.

[@porc1429]

I kinda hate her tho so I was hoping for her to at least get beat up first

[@lasakau272]

Hell no I wanted her dead. Knowing the creators they’ll always have a just as good replacement

[@westwardstar1686]

Maybe me. But Id love to see some long term characters. Have some survive the events of Andor. Like Dedra surviving post-Endor.

[@JonathanRodriguez-nz9nw]

same

[@TrentOrTreat]

Reva’s issue is that the character never felt evil. She felt like a cartoon. Like she is trying to be evil. Plus in the beginning we saw her younger years so we knew she would probably change teams.

[@buttscarlton1490]

Whaaattt noooo that was SUCH a twist when it was revealed she was the little girl from the opening scene! Lol

[@milkboy9339]

My guy, you do know that was the point right? Reva _literally was_ "trying to be evil." That's the whole point of her character! She was playing the role of the overzealous inquisitor as a ploy to get closer to Vader! Almost like she was a well-written complex character. Wild.

[@denisl2760]

@@milkboy9339 ok.... but then when she fails to kill Vader she still goes to Tatooine to kill Luke for...... reasons? Well-written my ass

[@milkboy9339]

@@denisl2760 When she realizes that she is no where near capable of killing Vader, you can't see the reason why she would instead try to exact her revenge by killing his son? I mean c'mon dude.

[@denisl2760]

@@milkboy9339 A son that he doesn't even know exists? "Hey Vader I killed your son!" "Wait what? I had a son?" You really think that's a good revenge plot?

[@carlos_takeshi]

The problem for Reva as a character was she was surrounded on all sides by other characters protected by impenetrable plot armor. As she chases down Obi-Wan and Leia, we know she can't do anything to them. When she battles the other Inquisitors for dominance, we know she has to lose. When she confronts Vader, there's no way she can win. When she hunts down Luke, we know she can't get him, nor can she hurt Uncle Owen or Aunt Beru. So nothing she's involved in carries any weight. None of it can matter in any way. Dedra, on the other hand, is going up against very vulnerable people. On Andor, there are a few characters who we know will make it through, but the vast majority have unknown fates. Therefore, when Dedra turns an intense spotlight onto Ferrix, it's actually scary. People the audience knows and that we have seen that Cassian cares about get hurt or even die. We know that Dedra could decide to just execute Bix at any time, and there's no story convenience stopping it. Everything matters.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

My thoughts exactly. Would have definitely improved the show if they added more characters that were fleshed out and would have us worry if they would survive or not.

[@hoos3014]

Best comment on these characters yet.

[@ertymexx]

That was my main head-meet-table-issue with the whole series (though far from the only one) - she has happily killed, maimed and tortured people in the series, but somehow when attacking the Larses, she goes very soft against them. She could have killed them with ease, and then taken her sweet time to waste the kid Luke, but no, she avoided harming them for... reasons. And her finally not killing Luke... well, I have interpreted that as Qui-Gon using Force Persuasion on her. Works on the weak-minded, apparently. 😕

[@kurtwagner350]

Very true, from its inception the Obi wan story was destined to have no stakes, I’d say it’s a big reason a lot of the show doesn’t work

[@jwroot]

Yeah, she was just completely unnecessary. I have no idea what the writers saw in her.

[@grapes9h5]

The real lesson here I think is that writers (along with actors/directors/producers) shouldn’t try to manufacture sympathy or empathy for a character nor explicitly moralize over their actions. Instead, an often better approach is to focus on the character as a whole person and trust or grant the freedom to the audience to either be drawn to repulsed by them, sometimes both or sometimes moving from one to another, as the story unfolds.

[@SnootchieBootchies27]

Yes. This. I'm pretty sick of Hollywood writers thinking it's their job to tell me how to feel. Because when they do that, I feel nothing except annoyed at their incompetence.

[@Drifter2025]

The difference between those shows is so blatant and shocking. I would have been shocked if you told me 10 years ago that the Obiwan show would be garbage and the Andor show would be amazing. Hopefully, Andor stays the course and doesn't change.

[@butcherpete2286]

Yeah, because 10 years ago you would have been elated with the idea of a George Lucas Obi Wan show and very confused by the name Andor lmfao

[@Korisnik982]

@@butcherpete2286 Boy, you really missed that point, didn't you...

[@butcherpete2286]

@@Korisnik982 you really missed the joke there, didn't you.

[@Brwigames]

@@butcherpete2286 You really missed the chance to talk to your crush about your feelings in the last day of college this year and will probably never ever get to see her again, making you feel sad about the fact she was the only other person you had connected with there besides a few guys, right?

[@butcherpete2286]

@@Brwigames might as well change that name to Stretch Armstrong after that fucin reach buddy.

[@jackransom.]

I actually felt sympathy for Dedra in her reaction to Syril's initial advances. There seemed to be a real conflict within her between the impropriety of the situation and the idea of actually being admired. Seems like she's never really been treated with kindness, affection or even understanding. Felt a little more nuanced in it's execution than in Kenobi. They're both tragic villains, but Dedra just resonated more.

[@ace0071000]

To be really honest, that wasn't how I read that scene at all. Syril was lighting up the whole damn board of "creepy stalker" warning lights to me, so that's how I interpreted Dedra's reaction, too.

[@GRA5S]

I mean Syril sounded and looked like an obsessive creepy stalker at that time even though he had no ill intentions but she didn't know that. She had a reasonable reaction to that. Imagine just doing your job and this guy you once interrogated confessed to you that he goes outside of your workplace all the time and wait there patiently just to watch you enter the damn building.

[@mischiefandmayhem8409]

Dedra was very clearly taken aback by Syril. I don't think she knew how to process or react to what was going on. Certainly there was real force behind the threats of imprisonment she made towards Syril, but by that exact same token, she DIDN'T have him imprisoned. Yes he was being creepy and stalkerish and obsessive, but there was definitely something in her that was having some kind of reaction to it apart from disgust. Some of the commenters act like stalkers never get into relationships, but some of them definitely do. I don't know that a romantic pairing is in the cards for these two characters, but I also can't rule the possibility out. There are all types of people and some of them are into some weird shit :p

[@johnscott7210]

Dedra was a far better written and acted character than Reva.

[@chasehedges6775]

👍👍

[@TzarBomb]

What are you talking about?! Reva is the bestest inquisitor EVAR! and you are probably a racist! - - - God... I utterly hate Disney...

[@edgodfrey7650]

Reva would have been far more interesting if they put any effort at all into her back story. I think Moses could only act within the shitty character they wrote for her. I'd like to have seen... 1. A sceen of her being broken from a padowan to a sith apprentice, using her hatred of Anakin to turn her. 2. Her killing her first Jedi. 3. I liked her character, but it would have been nice to see the Grand Inquisitor force choke her to her knees and burn an eyebrow off with his light saber for her insubordination. Her brash impulsivness is a cool trait as it paints her as a dog on a leash that's being used. But without the backstory, it just comes across awful.

[@411bvRGiskard]

Reva’s individual story arc was not a bad idea but executed amateurishly by her writers and the dialog and interaction with other poorly written characters was a shame.

[@decay79]

@@edgodfrey7650 She's not a sith apprentice, she is an inquisitor aka not even close to a sith.

[@dereklopez9060]

At the end of the day, Reva brought nothing to the table for the story. Her character and writing felt way too forced and her motivation makes no sense. She's mad at Vader for killing her Jedi friends, yet she's willing to get back at Vader by doing the exact same thing as he did ( which is killing innocent people ). Basically a cheap knock off version of Trilla from JFO.

[@kroganbers3rker778]

To say that she's an off brand Trilla is an insult to Trilla

[@parker.e]

The entire Kenobi series felt like a terrible Jedi fallen order remake, the inquisitors and fortress inquisitorious and purge troopers were all so much better in the game so it just emphasizes how bad Kenobi was

[@mickeybunts]

We as fans, might be in trouble when a videogame plot is light years ahead of a AAA Disney minus series... Or perhaps hooray for the people behind Fallen Order

[@gildor8866]

@@mickeybunts I think the main problem with the plot in Kenobi is that they started with "We want to have a fight between Kenobi and Vader" and build everything else toward that scene. Since Kenobi is on Tattooine and Vader for obvious reasons can't go there they then have to find a reason for Kenobi to leave the planet and so on. The way it should start and how the other stories probably did start is with "What kind of story do we want to tell?". It would be interesting to know when during the developement of the story for Fallen Order they first had the idea to add Vader to the final.

[@catsaresocute650]

It does make sense? She's trying to stop him and willing to play her role including killing for it. What's not really sensemaking is that as soon as Obi-Wan showes up she's willing to throw that all away? Really? She's made an insane double live and in a split second of I think you should do it now she just tries without a good plan?

[@brianmcguinness9642]

It seems amusingly ironic that not trying to make a character sympathetic makes the character more sympathetic.

[@FlorisDVijfde]

With Reva they wanted to have their cake and eat it. Dedra is far more consistent and her competence is more believable. She just analyses more and thus believes in events being related while Reva always magically knows more than any of her superiors to find Obi-Wan.

[@sterling7]

Audiences are willing to be charmed, but can swing to vicious opposites when they feel they're being manipulated. It's kind of like the old adage about "show, don't tell".

[@charlieblocher7456]

Dedra was simply more honest. She's a villain. Human, yes, but a villain. The show doesn't bring that to the forefront until later, when she orders Bix Caleen's torture, and like you mentioned, it doesn't make excuses for her or ask us to forgive her evil. Andor is much more self-aware with its characters, with makes them more relatable and real, just like you mentioned. Obi-Wan lacks all of the basic sense of Andor. That may sound harsh, but when you introduce us to a character who is at Saturday Morning cartoon levels of villainy, show us things like her chopping off a woman's hand out of pure spite, you need serious work to make her relatable. Yes, her backstory is tragic and terrible, but she's presented wholly as a villain, without even a hint of remorse or simple, real recognition of the evil she's done (i.e. without immediately shunting blame or making excuses for it). Then we're expected to forgive her for NOT committing a terrible atrocity, and act like every horrible thing she's done and implied to have done is now forgiven for adopting a basic level of decency instead of indulging in purely evil desires? Riva needed a redemption arc that started with her suffering a real loss or making a real sacrifice for doing the right thing, not magically teleporting to Tatooine after getting stabbed in the gut like it doesn't matter anymore.

[@АлексейМомот-щ7о]

ROTJ basically expects you to do the same for Darth Vader. KK is being petty and tries to outdo Lucas characters every time she has the say.

[@charlieblocher7456]

@@АлексейМомот-щ7о Except Vader makes a real sacrifice, dying to save his son. It's a pure motive, and it pulls Anakin out of Vader mode. We see real conflict and change in behavior from Vader when dealing with Luke, such as not killing Admiral Needa despite his failures due to his conflicted feelings. Plus, he dies saving his son and destroying the emperor. Riva doesn't sacrifice anything - she just doesn't do something horrible. And she's still around to be judged later. No mention of atonement is brought up. In a realistic follow up, most people probably wouldn't forgive Anakin, but the only people who really know what's going on - Luke and Ahsoka - have personal reasons to be conflicted.

[@Spinikar]

What I like about Dedra, and this is just my take, we call her a Villian, but if you were to ask her, she's not the villain, whereas Reva is as you put it, childishly the villain. Dedra is one of my favorite new characters, and in like my top 5 favorite across Star Wars. It's so good to have a strong Imperial character who believes in what she is doing. I so hope that don't do another stupid redemption arc, and she joins the rebellion. So sick of those. I put her up there close to Thrawn, though, we all know that Thrawn is the greatest character ever written for Star Wars.

[@cptpropane]

@@Spinikar damn that would be amazing to see Dedra return in Ahsoka's show as one of Thrawn's trusted imperials (his intelligence service director or smth). or in Mando S3 as one of the high-rank officers among imperial remnants.

[@areitu]

100%. Andor largely shows us her human side, up until she goes to Ferrix. I think that's what makes her so relatable. Instead of showing us how evil she is from the start, we're shown her facing obstacles at work, feeling unsure on whether or not to stake her reputation at work on a hunch, working late at the office, etc. We see her being stressed out by work. Those are all things we've felt at some point in our lives. This show truly is 'for adults' because younger folks may not have had the life experience to feel that yet In a roundabout way, it's the opposite of how we're introduced to Mon Monthma, who is shown as someone who seems to know what she's doing, and over time we find out she's struggling in the dark, with far less room for error because her stakes are just as high as anyone else's

[@Kevin_Street]

Well said, Thor! This sums it all up: "Basically with Dedra we feel like we've watched or been shown the creation of a character. Not just had one presented to us and told why we should care, and then given a resolution in the end that is meant to be a profound conclusion to a beginning that happened before our story even began." That's exactly why I find Dedra far more interesting than Reva. Dedra has a character, but we're discovering it through the course of the story and not simply being told everything the show thinks is important in advance. With Reva we know she was victimized as a child, and that made her an angry, vengeful adult. That's it. I can picture Dedra ordering a caf from the Coruscant version of Starbucks, and feel like I know what she might say to the terrified barrista. ("Quickly, please.") But I can't imagine Reva doing the same thing, because I don't really know Reva. Victimhood can inform characterization, but it isn't a character trait in itself.

[@fluidthought42]

I don't think she's the type to say please to anyone she doesn't have to say it to. Maybe "Quickly, if you can", which borders a level of disrespect and respect that fits her cold and calculating yet barely controlled nature.

[@superbientotal1]

“Victimhood can inform characterization, but it isn't a character trait in itself.” Well-said! 👏🏾

[@Theruler091]

Deedra was carefully built and not infallible as shown by her failing in the riot, she felt like a person doing a job even if it was brutal

[@Rakshiir]

I think one of the important things about Dedra is that she is never shown as a "good guy" She does what she does, for her own reasons and it is left to the audience to decide about her. She also was very interesting as a character. They tried to make Reva feel like a good guy, while she is an evil person. No doubt about it. Nothing in her past changes this fact. She also was lazy and didn't make sense A LOT of the time. Dedra in comparison makes sense. She isn't out of place, or has actions that don't make sense. Reva should have died so many times, was teleporting all over the place with no explanation. Luthen is very different as you said, he owns his actions, and even sais he will never see the light that his actions want to bring. Because he is tainted. That scene alone makes him 100 times better then Reva. But let's be real: Dedra and Luthen were in a competently written show while Reva simply wasn't. Kenobi was written terribly bad.

[@malasc12]

Reva was just a plagiarized Trilla and the producers hoped we wouldn't notice

[@Sam_T2000]

I think one of the problems with _Star Wars_ lately is that they use up more their semi-interesting ideas in smaller projects, and then when they go to write something bigger, they’ve already blown their wad. for example, Reva was just a more boring, rehashed version of the Inquisitor lady from _Fallen Order,_ and the type of story best suited for _Book of Boba_ was already used for _The Mandalorian,_ which itself was originally born out of ideas for a Boba Fett movie or show, I’m sure.

[@joyoustye2326]

I completely agree with this.

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

Trilla was pretty damn cool. Reva just looked like a whiny copy that wasn’t remotely as charismatic or interesting.

[@SuicV]

For Boba Fett they could easily have explored the galaxy's (not tatooine's) criminal underworld, while showing Boba to be the ruthless badass we all imagined he should be. But of course, like anyting, that would take decent writing, which seemed to be in short supply

[@Sam_T2000]

@@SuicV - aside from the two episodes that were basically _The Mandalorian,_ the whole “Dances with Tusken Raiders” plot was actually my favorite part of the show… I wish they’d had done more with that, and then just have him out for revenge against the underworld on Tatooine, and then in other parts of the galaxy in future seasons. I think the idea that he would want to become the new Jabba was silly… he needed to be ruthless. I’d have enjoyed more flashbacks, too, and to leave the Mando/Grogu plot for their own show.

[@JT-295]

@@Sam_T2000 my thoughts exactly

[@Veilzlol]

One of the most interesting parts of her character was how externally her actions were evil, but on a personal level I admired her ambition and struggle. A real characterization of 'evil' and how from a myopic view evil can seem relatable.

[@petiteminish2863]

Dedra reminds me of Bruce Willis' version of The Jackal: competent, methodical, ruthless, even sympathetic in some ways and they have a real chance of obtaining their goals. That's what makes them good villains in my eyes.

[@edwardaugustus9680]

Dedra feels like the kinda villain who goes home after a hard day's work, has a drink, watches some TV (or the equivalent) then goes to bed. Which is pretty rare to see.

[@PrincessFionaYT]

Nobody was left for dead because apparently light saber impalement is not a lethal thing since Qui-Gon. Boy I bet HE feels stupid

[@fatalshore5068]

Just use some force healing on him....oh wait nvm

[@istari0]

It all goes back to the quality of the writing. Dedra's reflected the quality of the writing of Andor and thus we got a fascinating character whose action made sense. Kenobi was not written with this quality and consequently many of Reva's actions did not make sense.

[@earnestbrown6524]

That's why I love when Andor is telling Jyn that him and the strike team need to do this. Because they are those people that did bad things so others can have a better future.

[@mazkeraid4039]

Yet both Andor and Rogue One felt disconnected. Also series named after the titular character is straight up redundant. This is supposed to be Rebellion times and barely signs of OT coming about. That is disconnected from the original vision even so-called lovers of Andor failed to know the difference.

[@paakdisayaniyom]

I've heard many people would considering that the best kind of terrifying villain/antagonist is the kind that we can understand the motivation and have enough humanity that we could relate to that character, Dedra Meero is made all out of that...

[@JoJoJoker]

The higher quality of costumes in Andor is apparent just by looking at these still photos.

[@fluidthought42]

Andor is better costume and prop design without necessarily being higher quality of material. For example, the kids on Cassian's homeworld were all wearing clothing made from what looks like IRL safety vests. This informs us that their tribe is or was dependent on salvaged supplies, and that their planet had a history of being an industrial site for the Republic. The rebels doing the heist had modded AK's, not because that's "lore accurate" but because it makes for effective visual shorthand for the rebels. The safety boots for the Narkina 5 prison guards are also clearly just snowboarding boots, but they look like they're juuuust convincing enough for that detail to fall into the background. Obviously a lot of cheaper examples of "lower quality material" that don't add up into being lesser design. Indeed, less can be more.

[@JoJoJoker]

@@fluidthought42 this is also a “call back” to 1977 Star Wars props which were, essentially, thrift shop finds. That adds a bit of personality which was lost in the high budget prequels.

[@fluidthought42]

@@JoJoJoker Yup! Creative applications of cheap props using skill and talent. And then some people decided to complain about the AK 47s not being lore accurate...

[@ThunderChivo]

You don't need to have exotic powers to be awesome, you don't need to shout to be respected you don't need to kill to be feared you don't need to show a traumatizing past to be relatable but you need to be a good actress and have good writer and director to be such a good villain Thanks Dedra

[@mazkeraid4039]

Ehhh… she’s about as compelling as Cersei Lannister, who is also calm and calculating.

[@chasehedges6775]

Dedra is a character that you sympathize with and relate to even though she does terrible things and has flaws and vulnerabilities Reva is a character that is unlikable the moment you see her.

[@tobiaslawrence8928]

She is one of those characters that have a chip on her shoulder but they never properly explain why. The inquisitors are interesting characters with good backstories I.e Jedi:fallen order but it's not explained why she feels they way she does about obi-wan.

[@Milothemighty10]

The whole thing with reva was just (in my opinion) intruding on a story that was better off without her…

[@MrDrProfessor4]

Reva never really felt like a character to me. She's a plot device.

[@Kevin_Street]

It's because the story itself is telling us how we should feel about Reva. Audiences resent that kind of blatant manipulation.

[@Milothemighty10]

@@Kevin_Street exactly as someone once pointed out the second sister from Jedi fallen order was a better version of reva and your right it’s like the writers were forcing you to care for the character just like how I viewed many characters from the sequel trilogy…

[@SuperRamos619]

One of the biggest issues with Reva, is that we never ever see that Reva has inner conflict about her actions. We never see that all of her "evil" actions were in the pursuit of her personal goal of revenge, and she had to push down the good in her to achieve her goal. All we saw was the end result when she decided to spare Luke that basically came out of no where.

[@pqsnet]

Reva acts like a spoiled brat teen that seek conflict and revold agains her parents/superiors.

[@ktvindicare]

So to sum up. Dedra vs Reva is a classic example of "show, don't tell." The kind of lesson you are literally supposed to learn in High School creative writing class.

[@kingbooomer9231]

Forced sympathy versus regretful sympathy. Dedra is genuinely one of the best characters within Star Wars, and I’d rather have the experience of rooting for a villain before having to regret rooting for her than being forced to be sympathetic to a villain like Reva

[@masteroftheassassins]

My main issues with Reva were that she got a lot of attention and how she seems fine attempting to torture Leia but she can’t bring herself to kill Luke.

[@darwinxavier3516]

I think one of the key differences in the competency of the writers is knowing that "understandable" does NOT equal excusable. I've seen way too many morally awful characters that the narrative expects us to forgive as if "tragic backstory" is some kind of shield against disdain.

[@kimwand]

You could see Dedra serving on the Death Star in the OT, Reva is more of a pantomime character.

[@Peter-id9wh]

At the beginning of Obi-Wan, I genuinely thought Reva was going to be a proper villain. The way she carried herself, the desire for power and position, the menace with which she sought these goals were just next level when considering Disney Star Wars. For them to then make her a “sympathetic” villain was almost laughable. Yes - I saw the first 10 minutes and yes I figured her character was one of the younglings. I had simply hoped that they would treat it as Vader seeing the dark side in Reva and sparing her as a potential ally against Palpatine (again, flying in the face of Vadar’s mindset at this point in the story but who’s got time for canon when there’s content to push). All in all, it’s ironic that by making no excuse or tragedy to explain a character’s awful deeds, Andor made their antagonist so much better. Just shows once more that you don’t give iconic properties and characters to “creators” that don’t know how to craft their own compelling stories.

[@suezcontours6653]

He never saw her as an ally. Would he ever humour someone he knew was a youngling for his own means? Ultimately he wanted Kenobi and it's implied that Reva is a good tracker.

[@jrobertlysaght]

I keep thinking how great a character Reva could have been with just one story change. She should not have knows who Vader is, Obi Wan should have been the one revealing it to her mid fight, ending the fight, and then have her go after Vader, buying time for the escape of the ship of rebels. Not knowing who Vader is means when you see Reva all in with the Empire, it makes sense. The jedi were traitors who needed wiping out, hell, their great chosen one Anakin murdered all those kids, and nearly her. In her mind if Anakin= Jedi, it all makes much more sense.

[@PrincessFionaYT]

I agree story wise that would’ve been better. But it wouldn’t save the character of Riva who is just horrible from the get-go. The actress is terrible and her direction is terrible and her dialogue is terrible. Also the fact that she only knows how to yell is super irritating.

[@PrincessFionaYT]

Oh yeah and her subsequent actions are irredeemable regardless of the reasons. She became worse than that which she fought against. There is no universe in which she should be allowed to be free or even live. Regardless of any change of heart she might have.

[@Kevin_Street]

That's pretty good. It would give Reva something of a character arc. It wouldn't make her a better person, but it would make her hostility to the Jedi understandable.

[@whiskeySe7en]

If you think THAT'S the only change she needed, I dunno what to tell you

[@DavidSmith-mt7tb]

I've told people the same thing. If she finds out Anakin is Vader then she feels betrayed cause she hated Anakin. Then she could go after him and get killed, letting Obi-Wan get away. It's still an issue if she hates Anakin for killing younglings yet she has been doing the same thing: hunting Jedi.

[@MedalionDS9]

I dunno if this was brought up before, but apparently Joby Harold... the main writer for Obi-Wan admitted he never saw Revenge of the Sith when he made this show... I was like... that explains so fucking much in retrospect

[@sanmo3057]

wtf

[@fluidthought42]

That's only an issue because it's an Obi Wan show, which sounds obvious until you learn that the guys who wrote Andor weren't big Star Wars fans themselves. It's not necessarily that being super familiar with the source material is a guarantee for good writing, but it does help if characters have a sense of continuity.

[@MedalionDS9]

@@fluidthought42 We knew Tony Gilroy was not a huge Star Wars fan before Andor was released... but he had probably an easier job to write a story about a character who has not a huge legacy and impact as Obi-Wan, like you said. Tony Gilroy is an Academy Award winning Director and has been in the business for decades... Joby seems pretty new to a lot of this.

[@keith6706]

@@fluidthought42 The difference is that the crew behind Andor don't need to be very knowledgeable fans. Give them a basic universe bible, some notes on Yularen and Mon Mothma, and they're good to go. And really, it's only Mon Mothma where they have anything they have to be careful with because of prior depictions and even then, it's not much they could conflict with. Yularen, because of Clone Wars has more personal backstory but his appearance in the series is a slightly glorified cameo, so there's not much new (at least so far) that could conflict. Even Andor himself isn't much of an issue: "Will become ruthless agent" is all you have to know.

[@wipis59]

I felt like Reva was all telling and not showing. When it was revealed she survived the slaughter of the children we should have gotten an episode that showed her struggle to plant herself inside the empire. We should see her struggle with choosing to do terrible things to get herself in a position for revenge. But no, we get some stunted conversations where she explains herself and a couple flashbacks.

[@shadokat]

Another difference between Reva and Dedra was the way they were presented to us within the context of the shows. Dedra, while we see a lot of her, is not one of the main characters. She is presented as a cog in the machine of the empire, doing her job and being very good at it. But there are other characters and situations to focus on and nobody is trying to make us think of Dedra in every scene. We can sympathize with Dedra as a working woman trying very hard to stand out in a mostly male organization. We see her struggle to investigate something the empire needs to know about while being patted on the head (at first) by her male supervisor and colleagues. Even though it's going to hurt Andor, the main character, we cheer for her triumph when she finally gets those stupid men to listen to her. We don't want her side to win, but we're glad she's doing well and making strides in her career. She's worked hard. She deserves it. She's not loud, brash, or arrogant. I don't know how many of you out there are shipping her and Syril, but I'm not. I think Syril is creepy. He's been an incel for so long he doesn't know how to handle a crush on a pretty girl. Reva, on the other hand, was thrust forcefully into our faces as one of, if not THE main character in a show with another character's name in the title. It was like, the show is called Obi-Wan, but you WILL pay attention to Reva! Look at Reva! Feel sorry for Reva! Be afraid of Reva! Reva is the star here, not Obi-Wan! The publicity outside the show didn't help either, with them assuming we didn't like her because she was black. She was portrayed as obnoxious, in-your-face, cruel, and very unlikeable. Putting her before Obi-Wan soured at least my perception of her. I mean, the very first scene of the show, a show called Obi-Wan, was about Reva. If it was a show called Reva, Inquisitor Extrordannaire, we may have enjoyed her being in the spotlight. In Obi-Wan's show, we did not. When they did that, they doomed her character in the eyes of the audience. We were going to hate her. Even if she had been played by a white actress, we would have hated her.

[@PrincessLockette]

Fun fact, the actress who played Dedra also played Yennefer in the 3rd Witcher game 😊

[@JeffHucik]

Dedra is a FAR superior character, carefully crafted and executed. To me there’s no comparison. Not even close.’

[@SGTRandleOneOne]

The best part about Andor to me is that I find myself routing for everyone.

[@yurigansmith]

Dedra reminds me of a former supervisor. It's an uncomfortably realistic character depiction.

[@miragewizard]

After having watched Andor, it's painful to revisit the character of Reva and envision what she could have been. Great video!

[@devonsharkey414]

We are still watching Andor, and just last night, viewing episode 8, I commented, “am I supposed to be rooting for her? Because for some reason I kind of am..”

[@msp4383]

Lol I forgot that the villain in Kenobi even existed. I don’t remember her name

[@netney52]

Dedra reminds me of the character bellatrix lestrange from Harry Potter. A very well written villain, fantastic actress but is one of the characters I like to watch because of how evil they are by pure choice. These sort of characters are so hard to get right.

[@rauli386]

It's human being evil

[@st.m7865]

Yes both are good villians, but I strongly disagree that dedrs and bellattix have lot in commen. I would say they are actually to opposite forms of evil. Bellatrix is the pure evil. She is a psycho devil, who really enjoys being evil. She is killing people just for fun. Dedra is as the villians in andor in general are not evil monsters that murder for fun. The evil in andor is no personal evil, it is a systematic evil. Dedra does evil things not for fun, she does it because it is her job and she wants to persue her career.

[@bnickerson2933]

Dedra is gradually developed in the Andor story. The Kenobi series didn't allow enough time for Reva's character development and arrived too quickly at a resolution. But Ian McGregor apologized to fans, explaining Kenobi series was shortened from scripts for 3 mini -movies to a mere 6 weeks and acknowledged it was not as well done as it could've been.

[@typeviic1]

I predict major back-story for Lt. Meero in season 2.

[@deepashtray5605]

Reva's story was handed to us whole with any ambiguity hammered out of her early on, Dedra's we had to process for ourselves with a lot of unanswered questions which in itself made for a more interesting character. There's also a big factor of nuance in the relationships between characters which can say as much about the character as their story line and further engross the audience. The better acting, dialogue and narrative in Andor didn't hurt either.

[@suezcontours6653]

Dedra is not a new character though. She's played by MANY women who have ever believed in a cause. She seems like a German stereotype

[@caelincoolz5814]

@@suezcontours6653 The problem I see is, what is a German Stereotype? If you're thinking of a generic Nazi villain who is ruthless and effective, then that isn't really a German Stereotype. Germany (right now) is epic.

[@DavidSmith-mt7tb]

Starting with the flashback with Reva also takes away the reveal later. If you're going for that backstory, better to leave her motives secret until the right time. Even then, I just don't see a way to make that character work, having them be Jedi who witnessed Anakin kill the Jedi and then proceed to help hunt Jedi. Maybe it works if they were a Jedi once but got taught the darkside and that the Jedi were evil and commit to that, like the character in Fallen Order. But your biggest character focus and motivation is the one thing you can't sensibly betray. You can betray everything else in pursuit of that one thing tho.

[@PrincessFionaYT]

That was a very good analysis. Of course they had to go the heroic route with her because they needed to sell all of those DIE action figures. You know, the ones that are filling up the bargain bins as we speak.

[@blacksabre5343]

Yeah, absolutely agree on these points. This is no knock on the actress personally, but if they had a better actress portray Reva it could have elevated the weak story through better acting. She just didn't have the gravitas of a darkside force user tainted by fear and power hunger and driven by revenge. The actors on Andor were just superb.

[@demon-hunter1498]

I think the worst part about Reva is that her character was already done far better, The Second Sister from Jedi: Fallen Order. She was what they wanted Reva to be and it's funny to me cus it seems like the writers for obi wan forgot that J:FO takes place 5 YEARS BEFORE OBI WAN (order is set 5 years after 66 and obi wan is 10) so the sense of them saying "defences? None cause no one would be dumb enough to go at it" in the ep where they talk about braking into fortress inqwiatoris (or how ever you spell it) had already happened 5 years before! I feel like if they looked to the game they would have taken another rought with the story.

[@rachelbolyard1527]

Reva suffered no dark side corruption, because Disney couldn’t. They couldn’t because she was always supposed to be “the good guy”, which made her character unbelievable, at best.

[@ecurb10]

Really interesting, thank you. I love it when someone like yourself articulates what it is I've subconsciously thought.

[@JonathanRodriguez-nz9nw]

Meero was an incredible villain, extremely well written. The exact opposite of the screaming lady

[@Lawlietftw30]

I like how you mention that the audience is or isn't basically told how to feel about these characters. The Obi Wan show really wants its audience to feel a certain way about its characters, perhaps especially Reva. The Andor show puts a lot of effort into the characters, but then presents them to the audience without definitive "they're good now" or "they're bad now" labels. The characters are complex and potentially relate-able in different ways, and they're forced into difficult situations, including morally difficult situations. And then the show just sits back and lets the audience feel how they feel about them. Different audience members are going to feel at least a little differently about the same characters - and that's okay.

[@joshm3484]

Hur durr, I will kill da jedi because I have a super secret plan to get close enough to Darf vader to kill him. This is the kind of bullshit a 10 year old would write.

[@steprockmedia]

Reva's lines through the first several episodes was screaming "OBI-WAAAAAANNN!!!!" and then they asked why we didn't like her.

[@brianalambert1192]

I feel terrible for the actress that played Reva because of all the hate she got for this. This was a character that could have been incredible, but the bad writing hindered what she had to work with. I was loving that this was a ruthless villain, I was loving that she was just evil and there wasn't a tragic backstory. Until there was, and they tried to make it out that her going after Vader somehow redeems her. I literally growled at my screen "What?!"

[@80sOGRE]

The Idea of a Kenobi series was always going to be a hard task for the writers. Last thing it needed to be was action based, which is what we got. IMO it should have been predominantly introspective, reflective and spiritual with the action just being used to season it. Nuance doesn't seem to be in many popcorn cinema directors tool kits. It's as if the heads at Disney think we will get bored and everything has got be teen level " and we got toys to sell anyway ! ". Funny how Andor has put them in quiet the pickle. Suddenly throw away lightweight just isn't gonna cut it anymore.

[@fluidthought42]

I'd like to think that, but I also know that a lot of people will find Andor's slower pace to be too boring. Hopefully though the word of mouth should continue to grow, it's word of mouth that led me to watch it and I'm trying to push it onto anyone I can too.

[@thork6974]

Impressive. I hadn't thought to compare the two characters, despite their many superficial similarities. I think mystery is the key: we want to know more about Dedra precisely because we're told so little about her (Wasn't Boba Fett cooler when we didn't know anything about him?). And the depiction of her workplace provides a look into how the Empire actually functions at the human level, perhaps for the first time since Grand Moff Tarkin remarked that "fear will keep the locals in line."

[@kellingc]

I still thought Dedra was better. We were rooting for her but hated ourselves for it because we knew what that meant. I keep thinking of what was done with Gladrial in "Rings of Power". She is introduced as a character who is often ignored or dismissed be people over her as well as colleagues. Very simular to Dedra. I think the main reason it isn't accepted as well is Gladrial is an established character, and her characterization in RoP is in direct conflict to who she is in the third age. Dedra is a new character. Plus, it never comes off as because she's a woman. Another reason I've really liked "Andor" is these characters feel like real people reacting and causing action to what is happening around and to them. Not some insert that is to make the audience see themselves as that image on the screen.

[@eatmorenachos]

The only "sympathy" or connection anyone can have with Dedra is watching her deal with an incompetent bureaucracy and backstabbing colleagues. That's something that most people can identify with, even as we don't want her to succeed because her goals are evil. She's a very interesting character. Reva is more like a background character with no real arc.

[@catsaresocute650]

She's not a damsel in distress. Andor or other people also have had moments where they needed to be rescued. If it's somone capable in a (rare) situation of trouble they're just a character with some weakness as all characters should be

[@northislandguy]

Dedra: Cool calm and collected Reva: Screaming tantrums

[@caelincoolz5814]

I want OBI WAAN! Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!

[@mathiasbartl903]

That actually makes sense for someone half trained in the dark side.

[@SGTRandleOneOne]

Reva is right out of a cartoon. Dedra feels like a real person.

[@ertymexx]

I think one of the problems is what they wanted to do with the characters. I think that they wanted Reva to be the next Ashoka - a cool badass character that be considered cool, and a new part of the canon. Alas, that failed miserbly as she couldn't really scare anyone since we knew that she couldn't harm anyone important to the story. So basically she came out as a toy knife - trying to look badass, but in the end utterly harmless and therefor uninteresting. Andor does not do that. There is no "look how cool he/she is"-factor to the characters presented. Indeed, they are all fallible, weak and vulnerable in oh so many ways. They are not made to be "azzum", they are made to play an important part in the story told. Perhaps this was the issue with the whole Kenobi show. And that is why Andor succeeded and Kenobi failed.

[@derekcaan7686]

Obi Wan had such poorly written characters and the plot was a hot mess - Andor has been an exceptional piece of content given how well it has come together

[@jaxkommish]

Same energy at the end of the MCU show WandaVision: "They'll never know what you sacrificed for them." Writing that line indicates a lack of understanding of concept of a hero, or even just a protagonist

[@swanstation9171]

Dedra: smart and effective Reva: just good looking

[@marchingham]

I agree 100%! One of the things I loved about Dedra was that she wasn't just a cartoon bad guy with a background that somehow linked to the lead. She was just a Bamf who wants to be the best at her job in an organization that she believes is a good one. Great video!!

[@hesthatguy]

Deirdre felt more like the " class president" kind of character you see in anime. Cereal just wanted senpai to notice him.

[@jakecook2375]

Thor you basically explained the difference between good writing and motives in creating the characters. Reva comes from a show in which KK had control of as the show runner and Andor had Gilroy as the show runner and writer of the show because KK doesn't have or never has had any real skill as a creator. Additional, OWK only had 6 episodes whereas Andor had 12. Steven Spielberg best described KK in a quote as "a bad over priced executive secretary". How she became president of Lucasfilms is a good example of wokeness at its best. Thor if you understand the force the way George originally made it the force is not species or gender specific, right? However, in pushing her agenda KK had t-shirts made that said "The Force is Female". Dedra was someone I never wanted to rout for but she was so well written and acted by I initially was routing for her but Gilroy's excellent writing and Denise Gough did such an excellent job of acting that I couldn't stand her and wanted her to die. KK has no f-ing understanding of SW and Gilroy is such a good story teller, like George, he doesn't have to be a SW fan to create an excellent SW story. I have gained so much respect for Gilroy and his ability to work with other creators unlike KK's ability to not work well with others and distort SW for her own agenda.

[@jonbodhi]

While I share your low opinion of KK, I feel compelled to point out the ‘The Force is Female’ was a slogan from a Nike campaign. It was a stupid thing for her to wear, but she didn’t come up with the idea (or any other idea, apparently! At least, not a good one!)

[@jakecook2375]

@@jonbodhi Thanks for letting me know

[@areitu]

I think the biggest key is: We are truly *shown* who she is, not told through clumsy exposition. She's initially portrayed as ambitious but insecure ISB supervisor, especially when she says "I don't know what we're looking for." We only get a hint of her evil side when she interrogates Cyril, but it goes away when she realizes he's not hostile. It's not until she arrives on Ferrix that we're truly shown how much of a villain she truly is. Even then, we're still shown her being stressed out by her job and working late. villainous

[@joemck74]

Imagine Dedra was found and promoted by Thrawn.

[@michaelk2533]

Thanks for reminding me that Obi Wan wasn’t the focus of his own show which is clearly seen by the first scene being about someone else entirely

[@amsfountain8792]

Dedra : Looks like a real person Reva: Looks fake

[@aquapendulum]

Forget about sympathetic, how about not having an insane level of plot armor for a start? Third Sister survived Vader stabbing her with a lightsaber TWICE! And she is not even a Pau'an (species that has 2 stomaches).

[@RMNarratives]

OWK had a lot of writers in the room (the credits list Joby Harold along with others - 'teleplay' & 'story by' (& I don't know if these people had experience working together) But Gilroy had a tighter ship & people who had a vision not beholden to typical Star Wars tropes. If they had handed the writing & direction with Andor's maturity (love Deborah Chow but she missed on a lot of this with the writers - hello Chasing Leia by Flea & co.) it would be a lot different. We are just going to have to get used to comparing upcoming Star Wars properties with Andor (once you get that fine wine, it's hard to go back to the moonshine) You may get the buzz but the hangover won't be too pleasant.

[@marcomarterer7232]

Reva: "It´s not my fault, they made me do it, you have to like me, mi mi mi!" Luthin: "Fuck it! I know what I´ve done. It´s the only way and I did what I had to do!"

[@macaron3141592653]

What I love about Dedra is that we don't actually know how evil or bad she is, and its not something we even dwell on. We see her as a hard worker in an intense job, but one that does horrible things. It really shows how a horrible system makes motivated, maybe intense people do horrible things to get their job done.

[@Rashomon69]

“Andor” is a great freaking show all around.

[@superiorrule34]

Reva Redemption could have been better if either she Recognized what she did and to know she will not be forgiven or when she fought Vader he would ask her if killing him will justify was she’s done with her saying no it won’t.

[@Numba003]

It's a delicate act to create a villain that is either evil and sympathetic, or evil and unsympathetic yet believable. Thank you for this thoughtful video essay. God be with you out there friends! ✝️ :)

[@peterpayne2219]

I appreciate that you didn’t just crap all over Obi-Wan, you actually made a thoughtful argument about the elements of each characters story. Great video!

[@frahohen]

The general rule is always to tell the backstory later in the series to give more weight to the character's emotions to emphasize, otherwise you cannot take the intent serious.

[@minutemansmonitor]

"Andor:" it's a lot like "Turn," but IN SPACE!

[@andrewlim9345]

Good comparative case study on how to write and not to write villains.

[@mewtwo.150]

Not only those, both the series entirely -Obi-Wan: how not to write a series -Andor: how to write a series That also goes for the music as well Andor OST is beautiful!!!

[@kevindaniel1337]

Reva was a great opportunity to really drive home the corruption of the Dark Side, she joined the inquisitors to get vengeance on Vader, but that's the path to the dark side. She needed to fall to get closer to Vader, but once she fell, the Dark Side corrupted her purpose. She had a noble purpose, but her actions are not justified even in that light. They could still do a redemption arc, but it should have been Obi-Wan showing her what she's become in her pursuit of revenge, and drawing her attention to her crimes and their contradictions.

[@JonasGrumby-OO]

Regardless of anything good or bad, Reva's character motivation is nonsensical. Once that happens, the character is broken.

[@JM-us3fr]

I’m so glad you made this video. I would never have made this connection if you hadn’t. The comparison is so perfect, and I hope writers can learn from this example

[@dusty8789]

the difference in writing between andor and kenobi is insane. i wish some of the newly introduced characters in kenobi were done properly because the show couldve been so much better than it was, but andor is just a masterpiece in terms of writing.

[@yllbardh]

Reva is such a character you'll meet in SWTOR playing the dark side, so competitive that almost that is all defining that character struggles to reach higher levels of development. In other hand Deidra is ice cold queen, calculative and cunning. Just the right person for the job that she's doing.

[@ethangonzalez8904]

A better comparison might be between Reva and Trilla, from Jedi: Fallen Order. On paper, almost the exact same character except for certain minor details (Trilla was a padawan, not a youngling when she was captured in the aftermath of the Purge). Both were tortured and twisted by the Empire to become Darkside-wielding Jedi hunters, both have abandonment issues with the masters they were expecting to save them, and both have redemption arcs that end with them standing up (more or less) to Darth Vader. Both are also given flashbacks to their traumatic downfalls and have structurally sympathetic villain origins. Yet fans love Trilla as an intimidating, intelligent- even unbalanced and sociopathic- villain, while they find Reva obnoxious and bafflingly stupid.

[@michaelcarstater2097]

A big difference is that the writers for Andor actually respect the audience's intelligence, while the writers for Obi-Wan don't. In Andor, we are presented characters and their actions and it is up to us to decide how to feel. Obi-Wan very much tells us exactly how we are supposed to feel about the characters.