Deep Space Nine Reviewed! (by a pedant) S3E21: THE DIE IS CAST

[@Unlimited_Lives]

Today's Thought Experiment: What happens to the rest of the 100 changelings sent out to gather data now that their instinct to return home takes them to a ball of molten rock?

[@redsable6119]

Wouldn't be molten for too long and wasn't it just a largely barren rock to begin with.

[@scottwoodward7103]

I like to think that Borath, the vorta that got pissy with Odo at the end of the Search (“well that is a problem, but thankfully it’s not one *I* have to solve!”) has permanently been assigned to the now dead part of the Olmarion Nebula and ordered to direct any baby changelings who happen by in the next century to the founder’s new home. And in the meantime having to eke out whatever living he can in the ashen ruins of the old homeworld.

[@james_baker]

i would imagine the founders will set up a Jem'Hadar scout to keep a watch on the planet.

[@ptonpc]

There will be a post it note giving the new address slapped on the planet. Most likely, there would be a small flotilla of ships stationed there permanently to welcome any stragglers.

[@LucasKeesee-vm8yp]

They wanted to be sneaky too and turned into one of the Romulin ships to slip past the attacking fleet. Oops.

[@scottwoodward7103]

My favorite part of this episode is the callback to Caesar and Garak realizing that even he can be blind to his own folly.

[@wendyheatherwood]

Something I just thought of, the founders could get around the problem of having to regenerate while impersonating high profile officials by having two founders impersonate one official. They can transfer memories easy enough, so they could easily take it in shifts and spend any time they're not impersonating or regenerating as a conveniently placed book left in a meeting room.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

It's not often I read a comment and exclaim out loud "ooh, that's fuckin clever", so well done to you.

[@Mecharnie_Dobbs]

Not a book. While regenerating, they take the form of a bucket sized volume of liquid. So, something to contain that.

[@dyne313]

@@Unlimited_Lives I thought you had alluded to that in the video.

[@John73John]

Has it ever been established exactly how long it takes a changeling to regenerate? Is it, like, 5 minutes or half an hour? If it's a short duration, then an Admiral or whatever could explain his temporary disappearance by saying he was in the bathroom or something.

[@wendyheatherwood]

@Mecharnie_Dobbs I wasn't implying they'd be a book while regenerating. I was saying they could turn into something innocuous like a book during the time they're not regenerating or playing the part, so the one that is currently in character as a politician, general or whatever could leave them in a room to listen to any conversations going on behind their back.

[@Oonagh72]

If anyone asks why you love DS9 show them this video. It’s a perfect summary of what the show is It is a philosophical sci-fi mystery. It makes your brain fire on all cylinders. This was so heartbreaking. ISO’s torture was gruesome. Garak’s guilt was palpable. I cried the whole time.

[@DaHitch]

17:37 "Money in the stomach, that's a stupid idea. Nobody would do that." I'm sure this will never become relevant again.

[@fatalshore5068]

This one is a banger. The interrogation scene really shows us what Garak is capable of. Also the founders showing us what they are capable of.

[@Tolly7249]

The longer you think about this episode, the more terrifying the Founders become. They could be anyone. They could *become* anyone at any time and you wouldn't know when it happened. You can't be aware and with them 24/7, there are things like sleep to worry about. They can get through any security. They can turn people against you. They can turn you against your own interests. It's like The Thing but turned up to 11.

[@drt1605]

Well said and why although I stick with the optimism of TNG I think DS9 is more realistic

[@paulevans9307]

@@Tolly7249 they could be you. They could be me. They could even be...

[@LucasKeesee-vm8yp]

Odo and Garak want the same thing. They can't have it because they KNOW who it will cost to get it.

[@John73John]

Garak can't return home because his people reject him, Odo can't return home because he rejects what his people stand for. I feel like a lot of us can relate in some degree to both of them.

[@Oonagh72]

If anyone asks why you love DS9 show them this video. It’s a perfect summary of what the show is It is a philosophical sci-fi mystery. It makes your brain fire on all cylinders.

[@drt1605]

The "previously " screens are worthy of thumbs up alone 🎉

[@stephandolby]

17:37 Heh heh. "Hold your fire until we're within 500 metres" didn't make sense then, and it doesn't make sense now. I get that maybe there's less chance of the Defiant missing, but at that range, the Defiant is ramming its target, not firing at it. If there's a 24th century version of "two trains are travelling towards each other", Sisko just ignored it.

[@seeigecannon]

Have the space dogs tried asking the Leprechauns for help yet? They should be able to get the footage.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

[*sound of distant alarm*]

[@hagbardceline7118]

Odor is amazingly forgiving over being tortured.

[@aelolul]

"We should definitely make an enemy of the man who can turn into knives" LOL

[@littleblackcat2273]

@17:50 Another new ensign, it looks like Bob's your uncle!

[@edapplederry5888]

Something I wonder is the death toll of the fleet. Each Warbird is twice as large as a Galaxy class. Combined with the Cardassian ships that must be several thousand, probably tens of thousands killed in a single engagement.

[@littleblackcat2273]

Hopefully they weren't all changelings undercover!

[@drt1605]

WE don't care about this but the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order lost shed loads of people

[@ComradePhoenix]

Your point about it being beneficial to the Dominion for the Feddies and Klingons to chase shadows is apt, and that's all I'll say about that. Also, I think a more succinct way of making your comparison about Odo and Garak is that Odo is Lawful Neutral, and Garak is Chaotic Neutral.

[@bryancorrell3689]

Odo's admission may not be entirely truthful. He knows that 'going home' is what Garak himself really wants the most. Odo might just be trying to get Garak to feel more of a kinship with him.

[@tonyjackson4078]

There's a point also to make about the scene with Garak snd Tain. While Tain laments he deserves his fate for being played for a fool and he's not the man he used to be, the same journey parallels Garaks. Garak isn't the ideal of what a "good" Cardigan is, and as he develops he cements he very much has that upbringing in him, but he's always at odds with who he should be, and who he is. There's something so fascinating about a character who can be a villain, and has every ability to, but just doesnt have the heart to.

[@sanddagger36]

15:32 despite bragging about being an expert on watching and manipulating other people, Garak has met his match with Odo.

[@Scerttle]

I do like the possibility in this episode that the starfleet Admiral could retroactively be a plant himself.

[@paulevans9307]

@@Scerttle And indeed, at times, could actually BE a plant

[@Scerttle]

@@paulevans9307 lmfao I see what you did there

[@kyuven]

I think Lovok's reveal was intentional. During debriefing, Odo would spread the word about what happened with him. This ultimately would make it up the Starfleet/Federation chain of command, and they'd start being suspicious of the idea of changeling infiltrators. And they'd be forced to share this intel with the Klingons, since they're allies. OR they DON'T share it, which pisses off the klingons. We know in hindsight that the founders do perform a bit of switcheroo to stoke the flames, but it's interesting to note that there are only around half a dozen changelings portrayed in the series from this point on, not including crowd shots on founder planets or the Great Link itself. While send an army of changelings when you only need a few, and just the idea that there might be an army of changelings could cause more damage than an actual army of changelings.

[@VuotoPneumaNN]

The one thing I hate in this episode is that when Garak asks Tain "do you remember a Gul named Dukat?" Tain actually has to think about it instead of going "Oh, the last prefect of Bajor? The guy who was in charge when we left? Yeah, no shit Elim, of course I bloody remember him!"

[@ptonpc]

I think that was more a case of a subtle insult along the lines of 'Gul Dukat? He's not important enough for me to remember him.'

[@ptonpc]

No one writes your lines Space Dog! You are not a half animated figure! For me, a lot of the horror of the torture sequence is, both respect each other. Garak thinks he has a very good reason to do what he is doing. He wants to go home and finds Odo wants to go home. As for the torture. How often has he told himself he was 'just doing his job' after doing terrible things to someone? An all too human defence for committing evil. This is the one time we see him react as if in guilt. Did he ever do that before for any of his victims?

[@davidmckendry4491]

Shame all the cardigans and romulans had to do a dead.😢😢😢😢

[@redsable6119]

Shame they seem to have lost the prototype changeling immobilizer.

[@John73John]

@@redsable6119 Yeah it's a shame neither Garak nor Odo thought to take it with them. And it's a shame that all the information regarding the development of the device was also lost with the ship, and not stored in any secret Romulan or Cardigan labs where it could be shared with the Federation for use later.

[@UrVileWedge]

That conversation early in the episode between Bashir and O'Brien. I get that it's mostly to set the stage for how Bashir misses his conversations with Garak and how while O'Brien is a friend, he can't fill that particular void; but it made me think; Bashir comments about how the plays of recent past (to him) are all re-interpretations of non-human plays. And then it occurred to me that nobody ever listens to popular music, it's all classical or 'alien-classical'. And nobody goes to the movies, or sits and watches TV, or whatever the equivalent is. You have Quark's bar, but it's something that a lot of the federation people look down on and it's just about the only form of low culture in Trek to date. It's just weird, the more I think about it, a great, stifling artificiality to The Federation. We see a lot of scientific and technical innovation, we're told and shown repeatedly that it's a society that values free expression and individuality, it tries to remove barriers to self-actualization. So where is all the modern culture? It doesn't seem to exist. I realize that it's a lot to ask of the show creators to make a fictive culture, but would it really be so hard to have people referencing the latest bops, or videos, or that annoying rhyme all the kids are singing once in a while?

[@gerrimilner9448]

sit in the bucket under your bed, with the door locked, no reason not to liquefy to fit the cycle your in

[@GamerstudPrime]

***SPOILERS*** While the founders outsmart and play the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order to their self destruction, they’ll soon show themselves as dismissive of the Federation. This ends up leading them to the brink of extinction and being at the mercy of that Federation they dismissed. While I doubt it was intentional, it always gave me the impression that when you look at the big picture, there is a sense of “Anything aliens can do, humans can do better”. Honestly, I dig it.

[@Ceece20]

it also shows their arrogance at thinking they had destroyed the only intelligence and espionage agencies in the Alpha Quadrant that could pose a threat. They dismissed "Star Fleet Intelligence" as ineffective and limited, while missing the real threat that ultimately doomed them. As UL points out, to the Founders, intelligence agencies are the real powers and unknown factors. It also leaves the Federation as the only power with an effective intelligence agency left in the Alpha Quadrant for a while at least. Sure, the head of the agency is dead, but that level of agency surely has someone to take over in case the head is killed in the field (remember he did risk himself in day-to-day and special operations).

[@Hogtownboy1]

Remember that this whole series about the Israeli-Arab wars. Pick which side is the Dominion.

[@quentra4304]

Wow first for once, thanks for the video

[@Unlimited_Lives]

Behold the soylent sacrifice! Tonight we dine on commenter!

[@ptonpc]

@@Unlimited_Lives I've got the sauce!

[@KingSidJames]

Any one for leg?