DEF CON 31 - An Audacious Plan to Halt the Internet's Ensh*ttification - Cory Doctorow

The enshittification of the internet follows a predictable trajectory: first, platforms are good to their users; then they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers; finally, they abuse those business customers to claw back all the value for themselves. Then, they die. It doesn't have to be this way. Enshittification occurs when companies gobble each other up in an orgy of mergers and acquisitions, reducing the internet to "five giant websites filled with screenshots of text from the other four" (credit to Tom Eastman!), which lets them endlessly tweak their back-ends to continue to shift value from users and business-customers to themselves. The government gets in on the act by banning tweaking by users - reverse-engineering, scraping, bots and other user-side self-help measures - leaving users helpless before the march of enshittification. We don't have to accept this! Disenshittifying the internet will require antitrust, limits on corporate tweaking - through privacy laws and other protections - and aggressive self-help measures from alternative app stores to ad blockers and beyond!

[@AChannelINeed]

We are witnessing exactly the same "you can't do what we did to you" with AI: they trained all their AIs without authorization and everyone's data. And now if you try to scrap their data, they will sue you.

[@notactuallyarealperson2267]

And that’s exactly why openai was so quiet for so many years

[@xyzzy3000]

​@@watamatafoyuscrape

[@robertscally]

Perhaps misspelling and typos are feature not a bug in autocorrect. @@arrell1xyz

[@FreestyleTraceur]

Forreal. It's like watching someone clutch the pearls they stole from their neighbors.

[@Nitidus]

Of course we do. It's a logical consequence of applying the basic rules of capitalism to this and other fields. Behaving like this increases profits while keeping costs low and getting ahead of competition. I know it feels quite human, especially if it's communicated and signed by humans in the corporations, but those corporations aren't "evil" or anything - they only adhere to the rules of a system that we collectively accept: free market capitalism. That's why shitting on corporations like Nestlé or Facebook doesn't help. It's just easy and makes you feel like you did something so you don't have to deal with the complicated reality behind it. But, as it always has been, in reality, the system is the problem. All the legislation suggested in the video are drops in the ocean. Better than nothing, but it's not an actual, sustainable solution. Change has to be literally radical, as in: it has to attack at the roots. In the end, after about 170 years of industrialized, unhinged capitalism, time is finally running out. Inequality is more blatant than ever, social instability and social conflicts are becoming more and more dangerous. The climate crisis will make this all even worse, Our current refugee movements and economic problems are nothing compared to this. After all this time, we are actually facing challenges that, if we don't fundamentally change, can realistically overwhelm and destroy human civilization. But even if the worst case doesn't happen, on the way there we can still easily lose things like democracy, or peace.

[@SomeMorganSomewhere]

That quote "five giant websites filled with screenshots of text from the other four" is fucking perfect.

[@dananorth895]

All combed over by lawyers and NLP treated to restrict the minds of the masses.

[@simonsilence]

Tell me I am not wrong in thinking that one site is reddit

[@perhapsyes2493]

@@simonsilence My thoughts too. I think it's these 5: Twitter, Reddit, KZbin, Instagram, and then Google to collate them all.

[@matthewcurry3565]

Have you ever seen schizophrenic mirrors talk to themselves? 😂

[@joshuagharis9017]

Yes, thanks capitalism 😢

[@capability-snob]

"federal contempt of business model" is a stunningly accurate description of IP law and DMCA §1201

[@yeetyeet7070]

*felony

[@markhaus]

Cory Doctorow is great at these witticisms that really captures the current state of things

[@aaronjennings8385]

Section 1201 prohibits two types of activities. First, it prohibits circumventing technological protection measures (or TPMs) used by copyright owners to control access to their works. For example, the statute makes it unlawful to bypass a password system used to prevent unauthorized access to a streaming service. Second, it prohibits manufacturing, importing, offering to the public, providing, or otherwise trafficking in certain circumvention technologies, products, services, devices, or components.

[@aaronjennings8385]

Section 1201 of intellectual property law makes two things illegal. First, it's against the law to bypass technological protections that control access to copyrighted content. This means you can't break through password systems or other barriers that prevent unauthorized access. Second, it's also illegal to create or distribute tools that can be used to bypass these protections.

[@monad_tcp]

@@aaronjennings8385 its not bypassing a password if the user provided it, isn't it ? except that's exactly why they put that law

[@wizpig64]

the only reason we're lucky enough to have VLC is because they're based in france. freedom in the US is something we have to pay for.

[@MsRubyet]

Bring new meaning to the saying ‘Freedom isn’t free.’

[@w花b]

They don't have the same concept of freedom

[@randomdosing7535]

​@MsRubyet hmm, that's true .

[@nil981]

If you have to pay for freedom, then you don't have it.

[@WhoopDePoopDeScoop]

France is more free than the USA. Just sayin.

[@burgersbeansandchips]

Totally agree, having given up FB and Twitter about 9 years ago I joined Reddit only to find Reddit is absolutely full of screenshots from FB and Twitter while thinking they are better than FB and Twitter. Social media is nothing but a curse on humanity

[@vylbird8014]

Reddit is simply in the process of enshittification, as Digg did before it.

[@burgersbeansandchips]

@@vylbird8014 lol @ "in" the process, that's funny.

[@Afreshio]

The moment reddit allowed for video formats, and later the use of tiktok memes it was game over.

[@burgersbeansandchips]

@@Afreshio The way it was designed is the cause of it being a reeking shithole, subs, while a good idea on paper very quickly and inevitably turned into echo chambers where opposing sides regularly attack and troll each other, form mobs and spread misinformation. I'm well aware there are many benign subs with good and helpful content there's just far too many echo chambers, and if you've ever seen the types of things that go on in the hidden subs, you'd scrub Reddit from your entire internet history and never log in again.

[@wendysofficial]

Reddit has been a circlejerk shithole for a long time. This is nothing new. Only the really niche subreddits have at least somewhat decent communities.

[@someguy6075]

19:51 "An app is just a web page with enough IP for Apple or Google to send you to prison if you mod it." That is interesting. I never understood the obsession with apps, they typically don't require functionality not already available via browsers and constantly being routed to the app store is a shit user experience. Perhaps that explains the somewhat failed attempt to mold desktop OSes into mobile OSes too.

[@DrEnzyme]

And now we have the real reason that Reddit killed off all the 3rd party apps.

[@Kantuva]

@@DrEnzyme We always knew the reason dude, it is always about control and revenue, be it from selling our data or showing ads or ideally from their perspective, both But yeah, "apps as web pages with enough IP" is a quite valuable brain dropping from Cory 👍

[@Phasma6969]

The web is bloat

[@monad_tcp]

Most Apps if you reverse engineer, you discover they really are mostly lots of webviews anyway.

[@monad_tcp]

@@Phasma6969 the web was made for documents, not for applications. The bloat started when AJAX was invented in 2007 (circa). All because directly exposing APIs was too open for the business that were starting to get too big. So making single page applications was a way of "jailing" the APIs, everything had to go through the layer of HTML. So now for interop you needed to webscrape data from HTML, its not impossible, but IS a barrier, you increased the cost of interop from almost 0 to something of substation effort, because then when you depend on the flimsy UX changes, your interop might break. That's why we have a bloated "web". It was the first attempt at jailing data. The App was a best answer for jailing data. Of course they didn't stop there, now we have TPM, and root of trust and crap like the entire system being locked down. You don't own a computer if you don't own the data and the computing. I'm a software developer, and when I started my career in 2003, the code of ethics was that the user owned the data, you owned the application, but not the computing or the data. Nowadays, the user owns nothing. The developer owns nothing. The platforms owns everything, no wonder everything is shit and developers are mere factory workers.

[@BigFalconar]

This video is 100% approachable for even non-tech literate folks. This video needs to be passed around everywhere possible.

[@tantalus_complex]

Professional tech educator here. There is still quite a bit of tech space jargon here. But you're right that it is pretty good overall. It's just not going to have quite the value for people who aren't willing or thoughtful enough to do some web searches to look up some of what they're hearing. I'm not sure if he even defined the term "IP." I don't blame him for that, given his immediate audience. But a lot of people still aren't going to know what that is, despite what we may think about its commonality.

[@crazycutz8072]

I disagree. The talk is clever but not for non tech guys - ite filler with insider knowledge and are mostly for a Peer audience. And you just might be part of that audience

[@quincypurcell5222]

Agreed, I don't know anything about hacking and this was very interesting! That said I heard about Cory from the Srsly Wrong podcast so I think his name is spreading quite fast

[@Kazekoge101]

maybe a Kurzeget style animated vid is in order@@tantalus_complex

[@sncln]

The political content within the speech makes it difficult to appreciate the message. To all speakers, focus.

[@Max_Mustermann]

14:10 - "a computer that runs all the programs except for those that make the shareholders sad" sounds a bit like a description of the current smartphone ecosystem and app stores.

[@kaiserzico]

walled gardens

[@samcalder6946]

The Golden Rule: whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

[@feelthebern3783]

Capitalism: Capitalists control the gold. Have fun, peasants. And please, do not abolish this economic system. We promise you the """good regulations""" are totally coming! You just wait!

[@theafro]

I too want an internet that isn't trying to squeeze me for everything I've got, The old internet was full of nonsense and bullshit, but at least you could tell them apart.

[@rickb3650]

It's good to see that at least some of the younger generation is being made aware of this. Some of us tried to prevent this inevitable descent into excrement 30+ years ago. The job ahead of you is going to be much harder to get done, but hopefully there are now more knowledgeable people involved. SCOTUS is hearing a case designed to destroy the CPFB this session.

[@christophertaylor8166]

My biggest worry in this campaign is the possibility that tech giants just go hard right wing partisan in order to turn this into a wedge issue.

[@RiahGreen]

I feel like I walked into the wrong meeting room, but I want to know what's going on (I am a normie). What's SCOTUS and what's CPFB?

[@retrogadget6183]

@@RiahGreenSupreme Court of the United States, Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

[@Mr_Boifriend]

I'm just curious: were you one of the ones who "tried to prevent this inevitable descent". If so, what did you do? If not, who was and what did they do ?

[@rickb3650]

@@Mr_Boifriend Yes, but I was a newly hatched junior when we were put on this road, so more observer than activist.

[@laurenlewis4189]

I stumbled upon Cory's twitter when the hacking educators I followed shared his threads. Best follow I ever did on that enshittified platform, everything he writes about is interesting and motivating. One of the ideologues who seems uncorrupted by his blind devotion to his values: still a nice person at the core. Excellent and optimistic talk!

[@brianhawthorne7603]

He is on Mastodon too!

[@CatherineLeonard-xx4bl]

I think he’s primarily on mastodon at this point, the man lives his values where he can

[@arcanondrum6543]

Ever since Twitter has been invaded 1:56 by a Space Karen, truly independent media is back to square one. The Nation Magazine, Mother Jones and other progressive print media had a chance of exposure until Space Karen came along and said the same thing that the Republican appointed Judges on the Supreme Court said : "Money is speech". I don't know about the rest of you but I don't have the same amount of money that Lockheed Martin has, so despite me criticizing them, people almost never get to hear anything except L.M.'s claims, not my rebuttals.

[@Coral_dude]

Oh hello KZbin

[@ince55ant]

his website is a great source for his essays

[@kayceecheshall2818]

The applause when he talked about pivots. Cathartic. Cory Doctorow is the GOAT, love his books and his lucid snark.

[@realityisfake]

what was deleted though

[@kayceecheshall2818]

@@realityisfake The audio mix was changed to different mics to pick up the audience's reaction.

[@realityisfake]

@@kayceecheshall2818 heh with the mask on it seemed like he was still talking

[@goldnutter412]

There is nothing to fear but fear itself. And look at what they do with their fear. Self sovereignty over our data is inevitable and the EU seems to be leading the way on this

[@gorak9000]

@@realityisfake Someone in the crowd clearly yelled out something, and they chopped it from the audio.

[@NullStaticVoid]

I'm about the same age a Cory. So I can remember the internet when it was only grey, black and a kind of blue-purple. Also recall the short period of time between the internet becoming open to people without .edu emails, and the opening up for commercial use. This was unfortunately concurrent with the 'interactive multimedia' trend of the 90s. So everyone saw the commercialization as a good thing. Who else but tech startups will have the money to do motion video and 3D rendering over dialup? Nobody was asking what about privacy, what about keeping this open source, what about all the static Doctor Who and cat pages which made up 90%of the non EDU internet. This was a rally great talk. Sadly I doubt anything will change. Same as the climate crisis, people with money are making sure nothing slows down the profit harvest.

[@KimMoth]

Yep, and if by some miracle the internet is saved, it will all be for nought, because it'll take a much bigger miracle to save civilisation.

[@chaos.corner]

Me too

[@dorjedriftwood2731]

You believe in the CO2 lie. Which is literally just a way of erasing all of the actual environmental action pre 2000 in favor of selling lithium battery based technologies which creates incredible amounts of pollution including radioactivity and the poisoning of groundwater. The environment is not merely climate and out of all environmental concerns CO2 is the least of your worries. 70% of Chinese water is so polluted it is completely unusable. There is 90% more toxic waste in China then there is storage capacity. Etc etc. the Ukraine war is causing more starvation than “climate change “ you trust the propaganda of the most high level elites in order to sell carbon credits.

[@musiqtee]

Same age, and fully agree… …and yes, nothing will change - unless we (very different 99% of us) change things together. 👍

[@vylbird8014]

Part of what made that era of the internet seem so good in retrospect was the filtering of users, though. To get on you needed to be fairly wealthy (computers weren't cheap) and have very good technical knowledge (Ever diagnosed a PPP connection authentication failure?). So the 90's and early 2000s internet was composed almost entirely of tech enthusiasts from middle-class families. Culturally rather uniform.

[@theeddorian]

The degradation of products and names started well before there was an internet. "Off shoring" production was a legal means to dodge the law restricting businesses from selling their products below cost. Overseas, you can have products manufactured by workers being paid slave wages. When you bring them back, you can sell them dirt cheap. And they are largely worth what you paid.

[@blaqlabspodcast5816]

Offshoring also made the product manufacturers no longer liable for things such as lead contamination Etc. Almost every product made offshore has lead contamination.. Amongst other things. Then they got caught rigging the home surface lead testing kits so they wouldn't indicate even on pure lead LOL

[@theeddorian]

@@blaqlabspodcast5816 Yes. Just about any regulation you can imagine that was put in place to protect workers from workplace hazards, and consumers from product hazards, was nonexistent overseas. People complain about the nanny state and the precautionary principle, I do myself, but there are commonsense things should be done regardless of whether there are regulations or not.

[@reinertgregal1130]

It's an ongoing trend for companies to give worse products and services to make more money. Pretty sad, but Ig we deserve it for not complaining enough. Don't be a Karen towards people who don't deserve, but towards who do!

[@avery_IO]

the applause being filtered by the noise reducing software makes it sounds like they're clapping in some strange unified rhythm. bizarre choice, defcon. great talk

[@blaiseutube]

I'm 60. The Internet was better and then it got worse, and then it got better., now it's worse.

[@craigslist6988]

mid 80s to mid 90s, mid 90s to mid 00s, mid 00s to early 10s, mid 10s until now... that matching your timeline? At this rate we should expect better to start in the next 2-3yrs and last for around 7? I have my doubts... the worst parts of the internet have been growing the whole time, they never really got turned over at any time and now they're too big.

[@boshjosh1918]

"We don't know how to make a computer that runs all the programs except the one that makes your shareholders sad" iOS seems pretty close to this. Companies have tried making computers like this before such as with web books. Thankfully it has never been very commercially successful or it has been easy to override the restrictions. I would hate to imagine what it would be like if this was the case for all machines

[@antonliakhovitch8306]

Chrome OS is worse (while somehow also being better by allowing Linux VMs), and Android is getting there (especially Android TV). Companies have been intentionally gaslighting people into thinking that mobile devices are somehow fundamentally different from plain old computers and they need to be locked down for "security". Apple has the balls to do this right out in the open by allowing you to install Linux on Macbooks but locking the bootloader on iPads that use THE SAME PROCESSOR.

[@robot_madness3164]

@@antonliakhovitch8306 chromebooks might actually be one of the other things you might want to look into, all of them run coreboot, all run open source ec firmware, and mrchromebox has been making custom coreboot builds you can flash right from dev mode accessible by entering recovery (esc-refresh-power), then pressing ctrl+d, agree on android why the hell is it so hard to get by without gms and all the bootloader locks and fake "open standards" tied cryptographically to gms

[@ZarHakkar]

I stand by that Windows 7 was the best version of Windows and every version after it is enshittified.

[@Cr3zant]

@@ZarHakkar Windows 7 was the last one that tried to compete with apple by providing some minor semblance of user control. Windows 8 tried and failed to port a touch based mobile system to desktop, and 10+ is just microsoft trying to copy apple.

[@deviden13]

you can still jailbreak iOS devices, Chromebooks, Android, etc, and "sideload" whatever code you want. There's still malware that manages to attack iOS and Android just fine. When Cory effectively says "we only know how to make the Turing complete computer that can run any code" he's talking about the hardware layer. iOS and ChromeOS can lock the users down as much as they want at the OS and software layer but the hardware ALWAYS holds the potential for hacking, jailbreaking, malware or other forms of "hostile interoperability"; there is no other kind of computer - that's why people have successfully installed DOOM on ATMs, Ultrasound Scanners, 1998 digital cameras.

[@mx338]

The only problem is assumption that government serves the normal people, instead of just the rich people who own corporations. The EU just passed the digital markets act because Europe lost out on tech sector, so now Europe is forcing US companies to let European companies enter the market. So I fear most governments aren't very interested on enforcing interoperability, maybe with the international nature of the internet the laws by the EU are enough, but I doubt the American government will follow through.

[@vylbird8014]

Reminds me of the early US's very lax attitude to copyright, and refusal to cooperate in international enforcement. It wasn't in their best interests - the country wasn't known for a prolific writing industry, so copyright would just have meant sending lots of money to mostly-European publishers at a clear detriment to American businesses. Then times changed, the American media industry grew - and suddenly the government was demanding strong, internationally-unified copyright laws. Then they started condemning China for doing exactly what their own country had done. A really huge, internationally-influential company can be an asset to the country of origin. They may dodge taxes, but they can still export the national culture, collect valuable intelligence, and foster trade relationships that increase the power of sanctions threats. So why would a government want to break one up?

[@thethan3]

@mx338 You may find some value in Ludwig von Mises essays on socialism (now a book), it provides a rational take on socialism and human action that remains unrefuted almost a century later and is not taught nearly anywhere, at least afaik. The problems apply broadly to any centralized system, and there are groups of people who are actively pushing for socialism despite the unaddressed failures. For example, an offshoot of the Fabian's publicized in their magazine (1890s) the idea of collectively as a group purchasing all the means of production (area by area, through centralization), in real estate, and then passing it to the control of the people over time (nationalization). There can be close comparisons drawn with regard to this strategy, and the ability to print money (i.e. Federal Reserve) coupled with leveraged buyouts of a few players. There's a lot of lost knowledge that was well known in the 50s that is now so hard to find.

[@jebediahkerman8245]

The government primarily serves corporations through regulatory capture. This is why we should DEregulate the economy. The United States does not have the cultural solidarity that Europe has to pull off what Europe does. US problems, US solutions. Regulation is the problem here, not the solution.

[@rustyshackle917]

​@@jebediahkerman8245 the only thing corporations like more than regulatory capture is deregulation. Try harder.

[@belstar1128]

Yea right now the eu is doing both good and bad things so its not safe to rely on the gov only

[@gubbothehuggo2771]

Listened to the whole talk. Breath of fresh air. I’ve been thinking to myself a lot about corporate consolidation, and the poisoning of digital real-estate for startups and small business owners, artists, entrepreneurs, creatives, etc and yeah everything he’s saying about interop is the key. They tinker with our business, then once they’re big enough, they put people in prison for doing the exact same thing.

[@flyingmonkey3822]

Advocating free markets and competition, at the same time as “seize the means of computation” is a wild roller coaster…

[@heliomachit5651]

Revolutionary language without any revolution. 😂😂

[@deus_ex_machina_]

😅 For someone who's gung-ho about “seizing the means of computation”, this is a surprisingly status quo approach. Where's the revolution, where are the beheadings, where are the gulags?

[@RyanLynch1]

I've heard about him from xkcd and I forgot he was a real person that existed

[@kibiz0r]

Unfortunate that the noise cancellation cuts out the "Woo!"s that precede that applause, so it sometimes sounds like he's waiting and asking for applause.

[@namAehT]

DEFCON and shit audio, name a more iconic duo.

[@kenderpl]

'corporate equivalent of Habsburg jaw' had me in stiches

[@damienasmr922]

I still remember when Google let me search outside of ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, FOX, PBS.

[@astarothgr]

I'm just fifteen minutes in, and my adrenaline is sky high! Cory Doctorow does not miss a beat, WE. NEED. SO. MUCH. MORE. OF. THIS!

[@05Matz]

Every time he lectures I feel this way. I wish I could do more to get to the future he describes, it seems like he has thought through all the social factors I'm worried about in more detail than I have, but somehow still maintains a clear, hopeful direction towards fixing them. His books are great, too; and the EFF does great work!

[@antonliakhovitch8306]

You're just fifteen minutes in, and you're already bored enough to be down in the comments section? :)

[@georgeflitzer7160]

I'm all in for this!!!❤❤❤

[@astarothgr]

@@antonliakhovitch8306 I know you're having fun, but I hate to break the news to you: the pause button is a thing!

[@Rexini_Kobalt]

certified Gutenberg archive being rn

[@agathanonymous]

i'm not even five minutes into this talk and i can already tell it's gonna be a banger. we need to save the net.

[@ftboomer1]

Too late kid. TPTB killed it.

[@agathanonymous]

@@ftboomer1 never accept defeat

[@KimMoth]

Too late to save the net, like it's too late to save the world. Even if you could save the net, there's not much point if you don't save the world as well, and there's no way that's happening.

[@EliotHochberg]

Also, the Dean effect happens here: I encourage your event to include audience response in your audio, because without it, it seems like he’s having both Howard Dean moments as well as Jeb Bush (please clap) moments

[@Neckername1]

I'm 30 years old, and yes the internet was better when people weren't on it all the time

[@thethan3]

I've a bit more experience on you. The paradigm switched from "the internet is life" to "life is the internet". Monolithic systems break down in predictable ways over time, enshitification is just a reframe of the same (but much older problems) that occur under bureaucracies such as socialism.

[@heliomachit5651]

​@@thethan3Brain dead take. Every type of operation requires a bureaucracy. Corporate companies have some of the most inefficient bureaucracies. Example: Health Insurance.

[@thethan3]

@@heliomachit5651 You are naive or straight up irrational in that line of thought. If you studied history, you'd know what the environment is now, was not always how it was. The issues we face now were predictable and ignored and structural. You don't differentiate between the environment's, for example currency was closer to rational pricing without free loans propping up industry, or regulations acting as barriers to entry, decades ago. As our systems have become more socialized, we have had more problems and more inefficiencies, and it was predictable to anyone who studies the structural failings. The irrationality part comes in because you don't follow the basic rules of logic and reasoning. Making a false dichotomy is sophistry, and a well known fallacy. Its an abuse of the contrast principle, and demonstrates low to none credibility. Corporate companies are a wide generalization, and drawing an incorrect and unreasonble comparison to mislead can suggest deceit. When you look at the inefficiencies with the market today (which is not a free market with rational pricing), its clear it stems from the banking sector bureaucracy and government. You use a lot of condensed fallacy replacing logic. I cannot help but conclude you are out of your mind crazy, and shouldn't be listened to by any rational person, or are potentially being intentionally deceitful or malevolent. If you can't follow basic rational logic, you cannot ever come to find any real truth nor would you recognize it if it was right in front of you. This fundamentally limiting belief system will only work so long as the environment allows, and when times get tough you and your children will have significantly lower chances of survival. You are hopelessly dependent on mendacity. You look at small things in isolation, I look at systems and how they interact in reality. The systems today work because you have a lot of people trying to make it work, but those people are in the minority; and failing/burning out. The more hopeless dependents you have in a system that cannot support them, the higher chance you have something like the Wannsee Conference happen behind closed doors. Notably it wouldn't have been necessary, if they didn't have those refugees hopelessly dependent in the first place. They created a predictable problem with no solution, and when the systems predictably fail you have some event like this happen. Its horrifying because its so predictable with so much literature backing it. Failure to recognize these predictable issues is beyond shortsighted, and naive because the literature is available but you seem to lack the required tools or an iota of effort to educate yourself for your own very survival. We have more information available today than ever. The lack of reasonable response in opposition to these inevitable outcomes ultimately support these outcomes that cause great harm not just for yourself but for others as well. Who would knowingly support any system that causes their own end, be it for themselves or their genetic legacy (children). There are no words to properly convey how moronic that is. Who wants to be the boiled frog.

[@yommish]

@@heliomachit5651 idk, the US health industry is pretty efficient at turning sick people’s last cent into a new yacht while dispensing the least care possible

[@WhatWillYouFind]

Perfect DEFCON talk considering the Unity situation. We need to go medieval on corporations and have a revolutionary regulation spree

[@bobmcbob4399]

You don't want revolution. That just turns the wheel of pain until we are back at the same point.

[@ianglenn2821]

These corporations basically want a feudalism situation instead of capitalism. And when we try to stop them, they accuse us of being anti-capitalist. It's infuriating.

[@watamatafoyu]

Good luck with a populace that so easily swallows corporatist propaganda.

[@youarethecreator1]

Agree

[@Nitidus]

In medieval times, there weren't really many revolutions. That really started with the American and French Revolution, the age of Enlightenment, an emerging (egalitarian!) idea of nationalism based on individual freedoms and unalienable rights. 1789 - 1918 was THE time for revolutionaries. Maybe a bit longer even if you want to include the Spanish Civil War. 🟥✊ (Edit: Obviously, there were still later ones like the Portuguese Carnation Revolution or the several events in Eastern Europe following the downfall of the Soviet Union. But it's not high times anymore.) In the Middle Ages, you only had some small peasant revolts with no ideological basis, but mostly top-down conflicts that shifted power dynamics in the nobility. Even the early modern age didn't really have any significant revolutions. *_Disclaimer:_* All of the above is stated regarding Western and mostly European societies. I'm not educated on revolutionary practices in medieval America, Africa, Oceania or Asia.

[@craigslist6988]

"Milton Friedman, court sorcerer of Ronald Reagan" rotfl... the accuracy hurts

[@aviira]

Spying on you from asshole to appetite

[@Thraeryn]

Fuck the Chicago school, now and forever.

[@wherebear]

What an amazing talk. I have never heard an explanation of what I’ve been seeing and feeling in tech put in such an understandable and entertaining way before. Wow.

[@aviira]

I quit all social media more than a year ago and don’t miss it at all.

[@nezu_cc]

You just created a paradox because you have a KZbin account. If you think KZbin isn't a "social medium" then you clearly don't know what that word means.

[@aviira]

@@nezu_cc do you follow your friends and post your selfies on KZbin, Einstein?

[@nezu_cc]

@@aviira look up the definition of "social media" Einstein.

[@lexushing1873]

@@aviira You might not, but plenty of people do

[@SpirosPagiatakis]

@@lexushing1873 Weaklings...

[@briancolon2417]

Step 1, create a monopoly Step 2, create scarcity Step 3, pretend like your monopoly is the only solution to said scarcity Step 4, profit

[@OptimumSlinky]

On the government side, we are actually seeing this now in software procurement. Defense contractors now have to ensure their proprietary, black box software talks to the GOV's open messaging system so anyone can plug and play. OMS is kind of garbage in its current state, but it's a step in the right direction.

[@ferencszabo3504]

I never had a Facebook account, I'm so glad about it!

[@itsme7570]

Yeah you can tell this recent API drama with reddit really pissed him off

[@Brandon-rc9vp]

This is the best delivered and most informed presentation I have seen in at least the last five years, Cory you are a new hero to me.

[@stuartcoyle1626]

I've quit a bunch of these platforms. It's all anti-social media.

[@wezzelinator]

It's really important that people like this are pushing for change. They still remember a time it was different. I don't, i know it was different but i didn't live it. I only live shiternet.

[@djannias]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 🎙️ Cory Doctorow discusses the changing nature of the internet. 01:12 🌐 He introduces the concept of "enshittification," describing how platforms evolve and degrade. 02:32 📉 Doctorow outlines the three stages of platform degradation: good to users, abuse for business, and self-benefit at the expense of users. 08:50 💰 He discusses the final phase where platforms withdraw all surplus and users are left unsatisfied, potentially leading to the platform's downfall. 10:34 🏛️ Doctorow explains how the lack of competition and changes in antitrust enforcement contribute to platform degradation. 14:13 🔄 He discusses the tension between Network effects and low switching costs in the tech industry. 19:22 🚫 Doctorow highlights how companies use IP laws to prevent adversarial interoperability, stifling competition. 21:52 🔧 He outlines the steps to reverse platform degradation: halting consolidation, breaking up tech giants, and enabling competition. 23:47 👏 Doctorow commends recent efforts to challenge tech monopolies, emphasizing the importance of swift action. 24:05 🌐 Interoperability is key to devolving control over technology from giant companies to smaller entities. 24:32 📜 Comprehensive Federal privacy laws with a private right of action are needed to protect privacy. 25:16 🏛️ Laws like the digital markets Act should force Tech platforms to provide APIs for new platforms. 26:50 🧩 Mandatory APIs need to be regulated to prevent cheating while allowing emergency actions. 28:57 💼 Tech Giants need to be incentivized to encourage competition rather than sabotage it. 31:30 🌐 Adversarial interoperability can help prevent companies from Nerfing their APIs. 34:03 📚 Spreading good ideas and taking steps to prevent weakness is crucial in the tech industry. 43:01 🤝 Collaboration and minimizing harm are key principles for the future of Federated open Services. 43:41 🗳️ Political change requires a slow and strategic approach, focusing on primaries and state-level actions. 45:21 🌐 Making tech independence and interop accessible to all is essential.

[@unicodefox]

the irony of an AI generated comment on a video about the great enshitification

[@virtuous-sloth]

@@unicodefox If AI can transcribe and annotate presentations then I'm all for it. As Cory describes the Luddites, they were not anti-technology, they were anti using-technology-to-steal-people's-livelihoods-and-hoard-the-fruits-for-the-owner-class. He also talks about technology in terms of who it does what to and for whom. If it's used to oppress on behalf of oppressors, then that use is shitty. If its used to help people and those people control how it helps them, then that is good.

[@djannias]

The difference is this actually provides utility and function for everyone to more easily understand and enjoy the message@@unicodefox

[@aegisxor]

@@unicodefox the deep irony of accusing a human of being an AI just because they put in some effort

[@philadams9254]

@@unicodefoxWhich AI has done this?

[@robmckennie4203]

this is the first thing i've ever seen from cory, even though i've heard the name, and this guy is cool as hell

[@Kelticfury]

Since I quit Twitter when Musk took over I had forgotten how much I value Cory Doctorow! Edit: Is it ironic that I am watching this video on a website that is owned by google on a browser made by google while running two different adblockers to stop google's new illegal policy of denying service completely if you use adblockers in a web browser?

[@rygelxv]

Just: thank you, Cory Doctorow and DefCon. This is pain relief for me to hear in these times.

[@TalynStormcrow]

I find it interesting that KZbin recommended this to me. Wonderful talk. (I was a script kiddie once, that's as far as I went). To the person at KZbin who hit back by dropping this into the algorithm. Nice one!

[@aaronjennings8385]

The wildfire analogy is very good. It's mismanagement by antisocial hoarders.

[@thefrub]

This is a fantastic solution. If these tech giants are built on open source projects, then those projects need legal protection to stop the tech giants from using them for abusive purposes.

[@hpac9687]

"Every pirate want's to be an admiral", interesting framing

[@nid817]

Totally, completely on point about the last few decades.

[@clonerstive]

I REALLY hope this comes to pass. So glad to see the EFF still doing their thing 💪

[@aaronjennings8385]

Daniel Kaminsky (February 7, 1979 - April 23, 2021) was an American computer security researcher. He was a co-founder and chief scientist of Human Security (formerly White Ops), a computer security company. He previously worked for Cisco, Avaya, and IOActive, where he was the director of penetration testing.[2][3] The New York Times labeled Kaminsky an "Internet security savior" and "a digital Paul Revere".[1]

[@annjuurinen6553]

Thank you for posting this information. I would never have found this on my own.

[@anglija-england]

Ted Kaczynski way

[@bondfall0072]

This is an excellent speech, but i wish they didn't mute the crowd. They add so much life to this already funny speech.

[@mikeloeven]

for felony contempt of business model I think the way to fight back is to bring attention to the fact that the founding fathers left a check and balance in place intentionally to prevent enforcement of tyrannical laws Jury Nullification people need to stand together and refuse to convict when a law is clearly bullshit or intentionally malicious

[@thedaveking]

Companies making content should excluded from distribution and vice-versa. Same with hardware / software, and user services / advertising. And they should only be allowed to interact on a reasonable and non-discriminatory basis.

[@nonayobizness2758]

Random normie reporting in…. Best Def Con/Ted Talk I’ve seen in a very long time. Forgive me for mis-characterizing the information and understanding you gave me as NEWS. This speech is an excellent example of why every child matters; one day, one of those kids will invent the light bulb, or maybe help explain the why and how of the light we love so much. Thank you. EFF dot something… I should probably go and goggle that ;)

[@terbospeed]

This is true revolutionary shit. I'm imagining people in 2030 looking up information about the 2000s and only getting paywalled sources.. Also feel like our generation saw the changing of the guard in terms of information control.. for thousands of years either churches or governments controlled information.. then in the 90s we gained the ability to communicate globally amongst ourselves.. at that point the methods of control had to change, and we are living through this change..

[@kezia8027]

Is it really a change though? Or just a transfer of power? Sure it isn't based around a deity and eternal salvation, but is it really that different? Timespans are shorter, but impacts are larger. Previously you had say, the pope, gurus, kings, queens, etc - swap out the religion/divine intervention with "genius playboy philanthropist" and what has really functionally changed? At least in terms of the consolidation of power, and the ability to wield that power, have things really changed so much? Have the 'landed gentry' really disappeared? Or has the 'land' simply become digital?

[@Vaeldarg]

China's government, behind their Great Firewall: "Who's 'we'?"

[@AntonSlavik]

"Hapsberg jaw", "touching their nobs" lol this dude is funny

[@Nabeelco]

Wow, he's so wrong about some of this stuff. The Apple iWork/Pages/Keynote/Numbers thing is crazy ignorant... For one, OpenOffice had been doing that for years before, for another iWork was NEVER and has NEVER been the dominant productivity suite, ANDDDD, when Apple did this, they weren't ANYWHERE NEAR as big as they were! They were WAY smaller than Microsoft! To add, iWork was birthed out of the old Claris suite of apps that Apple made in the mid 80s! Crazy ignorant and makes me wonder how much else of his presentation is way off.

[@blobidk]

THIS is the best talk from DC31.... slightly unbiased opinion

[@chitzkoi]

Digg is a warning from history

[@James02876]

Everyone needs to watch this talk.

[@ioi396]

I had to laugh during this video. What he said here exactly happened with the Unity engine too (and that just recently)

[@Ghennesph]

"And here's how we fix it! Hope that the people who have been actively breaking it decide to fix it for us!"

[@deus_ex_machina_]

😅 For someone who's gung-ho about “seizing the means of computation”, this is a surprisingly status quo approach. Where's the revolution, where are the beheadings, where are the gulags?

[@-Gnarlemagne]

The negative comments on this are all so vague and insubstantial, I really wonder if theres some sort of AI based astroturfing going on. Its one thing to see opinions about a video where someone just has a different opinion than I do - but I cant imagine how anyone could find any of this objectionable.

[@einsteinx2]

I mean there might be but also people are just that stupid… also AI is usually more coherent lol

[@-Gnarlemagne]

@@einsteinx2 Maybe so, but who's commenting on DEFCON videos who is genuinely that clueless? I reckon with the right prompt to tell chatGPT to sound like a random KZbin commenter you could make some stuff that looks like this. But maybe I'm making the age old mistake of underestimating human stupidity!

[@lexushing1873]

Hey, some people like shitty internet. 5 websites is probably enough, right?

[@raphidae]

I would. I do remember how the internet was, and the problems he identifies are real. However, I also know government is always the least efficient way to get something done. Government mandated and regulated API's? I sure like some of that unicorn blood he's freebasing. In what actual world will any of this actually work as he sees it? In the world that's left after all the "greedy bastards" are sent to the gulag? And, if so, who gets to decide who that is and isn't? Someone that stands up on a podium and starts confidently telling how to exactly fix a major societal problem (any) is someone to listen to with an extreme amount of skepticism. An audience of hackers should be the most sceptical of all.

[@feelthebern3783]

It's Capitalism Realism. Read it - it's a book by Mark Fisher. Progressive Capitalism is objectionable. Its goals might seem reasonable and laudable (on the surface), but this type of ideology ultimately only serves as a band-aid. Band-aids don't solve problems - they merely camouflage the real problem, while pretending to solve it altogether. This why I always say: was FDR a cool president? Yes. Did he do good things? Yes. Was he the best president the US had in the last century? No doubt. And yet, history will only remember him as "The Savior of Capitalism(TM)" - the same system which we are now REAPING THE CONSEQUENCES of. Because people didn't have enough lucidity or courage to abolish Capitalism when that was a realistic possibility. Now, we pay for that choice. We only demand breadcrumbs, and delude ourselves into thinking that our "totally reasonable solutions" will be implemented under the hospices of a ruling class that would never accept such changes. It's idealism; it's an utopia that will never exist until we abolish this economic system.

[@joshuabrunetti2001]

brb going to buy stock in a pitchfork factory

[@discman15]

The voice of a generation, thank you Doctor. Orow

[@crysstoll1191]

This guy just became my hero when he called Milton Friedman his arch nemesis!

[@rawlsrules]

It used to take us so long to destroy systems: we managed this in 30 years.

[@Moribus_Artibus]

One thing that also occurred in the Reagan presidency other than reduction of anti-trust laws was the ongoing de-industrialization of American manufacturing and the rise of Japan

[@_x__q]

Will AI wear a mask while speaking?

[@c0ntag10n]

I like Doctorow and I agree with his analysis but his proposed solutions are naive. Way too many "shoulds" and "needs". Antitrust laws have been ignored for 40 years and he's getting excited that they're finally starting to use them again in an election year? What's to stop them from going back to just ignoring them again after the election? How many times are we going to keep getting our hopes up just to be let down?

[@feelthebern3783]

The unironic answer is: as long as Capitalism exists. Because so long as it exists, the threat of ""bad regulations"" (or lack thereof) is always lurking behind the corner. There's people with way too much money, and their power cannot be reconciled/dealt with so long as they keep existing. They call us "Radical" Leftists for a reason. Radical comes from the expression "forming the root". We look at the root of the problem, not at its symptoms. What Doctorow proposes here, in my understanding, is to try to cure the symptoms... while ignoring the disease altogether.

[@thethan3]

@c0ntag10n , have you considered that your criticisms which you make about the speaker's naivete of the solutions may have been exactly what was intended? If not, I'd add that you may find value in background information/reading found in Mises von Ludwig's writings on socialism. Why Socialism? Because it covers in detail all of the important rational problems of 'any' centralized system involving people, that were known in the 1940s/50s (and incidentally remain unrefuted). What you may not have seen are the elements of hegelian dialectic structure, and other aspects found in this talk suggest the speaker is heavily biased towards Marxism, which as a system fails, and soft marxist propaganda nearly always targets psychological blind spots to seek agreement (for its effects in limiting rational thought). The standard play is the hope of what could be outweighs the reality of now, and the detailed changes needed to make it work (which were not touched). The related problematic elements, when recognized provide a different frame on this talk, and its purpose. Cialdini covers the basic blindspots/levers in his book 'Influence', Government officials have publicly recognized the value of his work. 'Psychology of Totalism' by Lifton covers historical examples of brainwashing done by Mao, the elements of which, once known show the danger of certain innocuous elements that most people aren't even recognizing as manipulations but are nearly everywhere online.

[@thethan3]

@thebearingedge No, what you did there is a corruption of language. 'Innovation' is largely only used in the positive, where minimal harm/risk exists, and you neglect the most important question; innovation towards what goal. If that unsaid goal is enslavement or destruction (which is a common goal when one pushes towards systems that by design will inevitably fail where survival is dependent on those systems) that's pretty important, and claiming that as innovation is just orwellian and evil and pretty clearly shows what goal your headspace is aimed at if that were the case. In regular correspondence, it is assumed that one will use words that have one generally accepted/shared meaning, and those must be used in a correct way. (i.e. Specificity of language. ). You also don't cut off important parts to strawman and put words in other people's mouthes because that is what deceitful sophists do. If you cannot do that, and continue to incorrectly minimize existential risk; you are showing by your actions that you are being deceitful and trying to mislead the gullible, i.e. acting as a malevolent entity. I'm sure that was not what you intended, right?

[@Cloudruler_]

no matter what this guy says, systems based on consensus are not force

[@HINOMNOM]

Ah yes, the evils of... hang on, lemme check my notes. Comparing and contrasting two systems in opposition to each other. Conservatives love to use words like "dialectic" because they sound scary if you only write like you read, instead of reading books

[@GeoNeilUK]

A problem with regulations is seen by me with the GDPR. I'm in the UK. I have a PC running Windows. It works. All of my Microsoft services work. I have an Android phone. It works. All of my Google services work. I'm here posting on KZbin! I have an Instagram account, a Twitter account, a Facebook account. iPhones and Macs are sold over here, all of Apple's services work. Yet there are American websites who are prepared to shut out _an entire continent_ just to avoid complying with laws that _Elon Musk_ has no problem with. Violating the GDPR is that essential to their business model. And they tend to be small news sites and local newspapers and TV stations. I can see their articles on Facebook, but I can't go to their own websites. There is a part of me that wants to see a press conference with a European head of government who, on fielding a question from a news outlet that would rather block the entire population of the country they govern than comply with the GDPR and not only refuse to answer their question, but actually throw them out of the press conference citing why... _You have the nerve to put a question to me when your publication blocks the entire population of my country from reading that response? _*_GET OUT!!!_*_ Not only do you not get an answer, you don't even get to ask the question! _*_LEAVE!!!_*

[@billbusen]

The problem with having the government require that any software used by the government must allow adversarial interoperability is that it can be argued with good reason that that would open giant security holes in sensitive government software. The executives of which you speak could even make sure that that consequence followed any such government mandate. Malicious compliance.

[@thatguyidk123]

I really enjoyed this talk and highly agreed on many of the points made during the speech

[@Tcgmaster808]

Seems like the ultimate hack is to start living offline as much as possible

[@AF-jx7hz]

Shareholders HATE this one simple trick

[@TheeCapN]

Negatory! I am too addicted and toxic to live offline. I want to talk shit as much as possible lol

[@auugh43546]

@@TheeCapN gotta respect the grind

[@thebunsenburner]

If everyone who didn't like Facebook and wanted to leave changed their profile picture and badge to the same symbol, and enough of your feed all had that symbol, that might help get the gears going further.

[@margegeneverra5594]

Better if they actually left.

[@thebunsenburner]

@@margegeneverra5594 If they leave, their friends won't notice them gone because the content will be filled back in via the algorithm. If they stay and protest, and enough people do it, then the platform itself will have a different vibe.

[@polandk2]

I ended up lifting weights to this, who needs pump up music when Cory is speaking truth to power

[@lexushing1873]

good presentation but I feel weird watching it on a google site lol

[@tauIrrydah]

Social media has turned life into an ARG.

[@theoreticalphysics3644]

Just started but so far getting the vibes of jarion lainers's ted talk on this, if y'all haven't seen it fellas please go watch that, really an incredible talk that just rings so unfortunately true.

[@MoosieSingh]

I feel like this says everything that's been on my mind recently.

[@dcorgard]

I applaud you guys wanting to un-sh!ttify the internet... it used to be AMAZING in the 90's, and even into the early 2000's... now it's absolutely dystopian.

[@hellojeyjey]

Lit as hell. Too bad it's hard to win against billion dollar-wielding policymakers.

[@HonoredMule]

"Felony contempt of business model." I don't think I've heard a finer turn of phrase in several years at least.

[@stevengill1736]

Your ideas are excellent - I hope some of them are acted on! Thank you kindly for your talk, cheers.

[@Ecotechnologist]

This is the attitude that got me into tech -- anti-capitalistic. He really hit the nail on the head in describing how tech has become these days. Now we're just another group of exploited workers. We need a working class revolution.

[@lifelover69]

history repeats itself

[@peterbelanger4094]

F

[@peterbelanger4094]

Y

[@peterbelanger4094]

S

[@peterbelanger4094]

you

[@sunnymon1436]

Murdoch only bought myspace after it died.

[@gustaveliasson5395]

Aka "Technofeudalism". Lookup Yanis Varoufakis for more info on that topic.

[@brycebeckett6654]

This speech is incredibly well written and thorough! Thank you!

[@josebr0]

This man glows

[@shinluis]

If this talk ends up with the "all we need is good capitalists instead of the evil ones, and help from the government, who is definitely an independent entity removed from the private sector and doesn't massively and consistently represent the economic elite and massive accumulators of capital" I'm going to be very disappointed edit: i'm very disappointed

[@ReachTea]

I wish I was watching this on something other than youtube

[@Looldeos]

Amazing talk. Digital Markets Act 25:07 So important, for every kind of service.

[@SimonsTechLab]

Let's Save The Internet!

[@jeffbrownstain]

Let's All Love Lain.

[@_____________3229]

@@jeffbrownstain Your Pathetic

[@nemtudom5074]

This man is a treasure trove of information and good ideologies and i could listen to him talk for days.

[@carlswenson5403]

best vader reference ive heard in a long while

[@Simon-vs2gk]

How do you propose regulation being a realistic solution when that regulation is to be enforced by a government that is bought and paid for by the corporations responsible for enshittification? Are you leaving the changes necessary as an exercise to the reader or is that union shirt just for show?

[@feelthebern3783]

Bingo. This is why an anti-Capitalist revolution is necessary for these kind of changes. The Government will never regulate Capitalists, so long as it's bought and paid for by those Capitalists. We all know that money talks. Abolish Capitalism/Capitalists, and watch the pieces start falling into place.

[@macstrong1284]

he describes a cartel so many times. I thought those were illegal

[@kyledavidson8712]

"Nevermind what's been sellin', its what you're buyin'".

[@username_mcusernameface]

Almost laughed beer out through my nose into my keyboard at 20:46