Defining Genre

[@portiawrites]

I once heard someone describe the difference between literary/commercial fiction as the difference between stained glass (beautiful to look at, sometimes challenging to see through) and a picture window (clear glass lets you see the story easily).

[@lisakaufman3029]

Jessica 's comment about the vision of the house for book marketing is the rub regarding issues with genre! If you only take in one sentence, this is everything! You should've seen me working this over in my head! TY

[@AJ_Dunn]

International Thriller Writers (of which I am a member) clearly defines mystery, "thriller," suspense, and horror. They clearly state on their website that mystery involves the uncovering of a crime by a single person, usually a detective who follows clues. A thriller is not that, but builds fear, suspense and dread of a future crime. Which is why horror is included in the thriller umbrella. There are sub-categories of thrillers: psychological, crime, action, political, legal, mystery, spy, science fiction, supernatural, paranormal, etc. I hope that's helpful for anyone interested in writing those genres.

[@kanashiiookami6537]

So "mystery" implies the crime has either already been commited or will be in the first chapter, whereas suspense/thriller means the characters are trying to stop x bad thing from happening till whatever twist or end the book comes to? Am I understanding that right? Because ironically I love both genres and have been immersed in them since I was a kid, but I've never had a full understanding of just what makes them different.

[@AJ_Dunn]

Yes!

[@lanceevans1689]

Much appreciated, AJ!

[@jaybe8877]

Thank you for another great video. My understanding ([please] correct me if I'm wrong) is that if an agent wants MG/YA, they will represent (and therefore accept queries from) any genre under those umbrellas, even if they do not represent fantasy/sci-fi etc.. in adult fiction. Unless (ofc) they specifically mention that they do not accept MG/YA fantasy etc... Would love to hear some stories about things that new clients (after accepting your representation) did that surprised you (both good and bad) and/or made you change the way you see things. Thank you for genuinely helping others through times that seem so stressful and helping us all stay positive. ❤

[@susanmatley5006]

A helpful and nuanced conversation. Thank you!

[@maggiepfob]

Wait, what? Did I hear you say "Literary Fantasy"? I'm breaking my brain but the only Fantasy I can think of that I would consider Literary is Lord of the Rings. Everything after that is commercial (and I know, because I read every word of it in throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s!) But I gave up after that, so if anyone here can prove me wrong, I'd be absolutely delighted! (I would consider McGuire's "Wayward Children" cycle to be Literary, or at least upmarket, but I'm thinking/hoping for Fantasy specifically intended for an adult audience.) In my experience, if anything has real (within the context of the story) magic in it, it is rigidly and forever doomed to be filed under "Fantasy" no matter how literary it may be. Are you sure you're not thinking of Magical Realism (in which any "magic" must never be provable to be real within the context of the story-world, except in the narrator's unreliable mind)? I would consider the bulk of Magical Realism to be Literary. PS: No, I have never read GoT, and I never will because GRRM referred to his work as "Tolkien for grownups" and that's just insulting, and I don't read work by authors who insult their readers. But you'd have a hard time convincing me his work is anything near Literary, either.

[@unusualintrests9058]

Thank you so much. This does help alot. I was confused on how to pitch my book. But helped break it down. Young adult/ middle grade/ picture book/ adult is who your aiming to sell it to. Then what is the primary genre. What does it seem to say put me here in a bookstore. And then its the writing type. Like the manuscript I'm trying to pitch now is commercial/upmarket young adult fantasy

[@clintoreilly]

Great help. I have no idea of what I'm doing but writing. Lots to learn, I guess. Thanks.

[@annworthington7253]

I appreciate your insight. And a spoonful of humor helps the medicine go down 😊

[@Keepitkind7]

QUESTION FOR JESSICA AND JAMES: For authors of both an adult upmarket novel AND several children's picture books (and illustrator), how would you advise on querying an agent?-one who represents both? Or?

[@BookEndsLiterary]

Hi! Our video coming out next week is actually on this exact topic! :)

[@MrDanroche]

To be honest, I’m still not sure of my genre. I think I’m an upmarket writer because my style isn’t as purple as literary, and it isn’t commercial either. It always contains enough social and spiritual content that it asks for a little more attention from the reader. But I try not to bog it down with too many fancy lines of prose and I try not to make it too fast paced. Maybe you’re right. Maybe I should just market myself as an upmarket writer

[@michaelhenricks4856]

So genre just identifies the audience. Writer's like to know what the words mean and the point of this episode is that nobody knows. And we think it has to be correct. If it indicates the audience, I guess its as good as you can guess.

[@jwalker6187]

I think sometimes as writers it can be difficult to see which genre forest we're in through the grove of words we've planted. That's not a bad thing. That's just the nature of growing books. When we get lost there are plenty of people around us (family, critique groups, beta readers, writing associations, etc.) to help us figure it out. And even if we do get it wrong an agent or editor isn't going to reject our work solely because we named our baby Thriller instead of Horror.

[@kanashiiookami6537]

That last bit might depend on the agent actually. I've seen some saying they will delete any query that has a genre listed that they don't represent. So they will technically reject you based on the idea that your genre is what you thought it is. Even though in reality you may have been wrong. But they'll never read the manuscript to know because "I don't rep horror".

[@apeculiarproject3501]

I don't think they are saying you have to be 100% precise and accurate. If you submit something as a romance, and they decide it's more of a romantic suspense, it's probably not a big deal if they like the book. Ultimately, it's the publisher that will make the final call on how to market it. I look at it this way - what's the core question of your story? What answer comes out in the climax? -if it's they get married, hurray. Then you have a romance. -they outshoot/out run/out fight the bad guys (whether it's drug runners, corporate espionage, diplomatic espionage, art thieves, terrorists, whatever) it's some kind of action/suspense. -some sort of make-believe science is invented to save the day, it's science fiction. -if a killer is discovered, mystery. -if the whole world is make-believe and a hero (or team) shows us how to overcome some evil, probably a fantasy. - if one person survives after watching their friends die, horror. - a woman learns to accept her past and live her best life, women's fiction. Remember, there can be subplots. It's the core question of the story - the one that's asked in the hook and answered in the climax - that defines the genre. I don't know if this works for everyone, but it helps me.

[@kanashiiookami6537]

That actually helped, thank you for posting that!🤗❤

[@salomeydraws]

Exactly! Whatever the core theme is, basically IS the genre. That's all we need to know to submit a book. Sub genres are decided after it's been read and critiqued, but it's all just a bunch of key words that support the MAIN key word.

[@lanceevans1689]

Excellent!

[@tinacelentano3629]

I find fantasy a very broad genre. I thought my manuscript was an urban fantasy because the definition I had seen was paranormal elements in a real world setting. But I have read other urban fantasies and they all had world building which mine does not. So I've started to query it as a speculative fiction because that seems to cover a broader scope but honestly not certain. My story is set in the real world with my MC encountering a supernatural character who becomes a major character. I appreciate you saying it doesn't have to be perfect! It is confusing though. Thanks for all the great information!

[@noblshtplz]

Would you consider focusing on picture book submissions?

[@BookEndsLiterary]

Hi! Some of our agents do focus on picture books! You can see which on the Submissions tab on our website

[@salomeydraws]

People in the comments complaining about writing a defined genre and saying agents should "do their job and label their book for them"... 😬 Really? If you can't say to an agent off the bat, "this is a horror", and they read it and agree, then HOW do you expect them to be an ambassador for your book to someone else? That's just absurd. All you actually have to do as an author is at least take time to UNDERSTAND the umbrella genres and write LEANING TOWARD the main genre you want to focus on in your book. If you understand the UMBRELLA genre the main theme of your book falls beneath, be it romance, Sci fi, thriller, mystery etc, you will make it MUCH EASIER for your agent to talk about your book and pitch it to the right publishers. You all go to book stores, so where in the book store do you see YOUR book? No, the "everything" category doesn't exist... What matters is eventually getting your book IN the book store!!

[@livinginthenow]

I understand what you're saying, in general, but I don't think as many people go to brick and mortar books stores these days as you might think. Even before the pandemic, many people began to buy books almost entirely in digital format. This means that there are no aisles or bookshelves with labels posted on them to physically guide the buyer to the book of their choice. For example, if you were in the mood for reading a detective story set in the 1920's England featuring a strong female protagonist, all you would have to do is type that in the search menu and dozens of offerings pop up. Some of them will be presented with labels like "Historical" or "Mystery" or even "1920's." Many of them will not. All that information is hidden in the search menu's algorithm, and does not appear until AFTER the search is made. For better or worse, that is the experience that a huge portion of modern readers have. And for those same readers who are also writers, asking them what bookshelf they would put their book on may be met with confusion and frustration. [FYI - I, like James, also have enough books to establish a library. About 40 of them are on the shelf next to my desk. The others are stored on the cloud ready for me to download to my kindle or my pc whenever I feel like reading them. They take up zero physical space, and no trees had to be sacrificed to bring them into existence. Also, no one is planning an intervention regarding the amount of money I spend on books because they have no idea how many books I have. 🤣]

[@salomeydraws]

@@livinginthenow Maybe that's true, but I'm only 28 and I still prefer physically visiting a book shop and buying actual books (as does my sister, 23), than reading digital books (and I love being surrounded by books in my home office!! They literally surround me.) This may be because I'm an author-illustrator and also create graphic novels and picture books as well as love to read them myself, and having what I create beside me makes it easy to grab and compare my work to (which should really apply to all authors). In my opinion, my gen are usually reading webcomics digitally but we still love physical books and prints stickers etc, (basically all the merch to go with our favourite stories), so I wonder how this physical vs digital "divide" stacks up generationally? (Anyway that's off topic.) I understand what you're saying, but even searching for "1920s historical thriller with strong female protag" is still a VERY specific theme in itself. You won't get YA queer fantasy coming up in a search like that - you'll get what you search for. Thriller, horror - so long as it has a general theme along those lines, that in my humble opinion IS the genre. Why? Because its the main vibe of the book, and when you're done reading it you arent confused and thinking, "That was actually Sci Fi". Like your example above sounds like historical mystery. So it's a mystery right? I personally love mystery books, doesn't matter when it's set so long as there is mystery in the book! So I'd say that's a pretty clear main umbrella "theme" or "genre" (in my eyes). I mean, it isn't rocket science right? It's a label. Give it multiple labels if you need to. There's still one core theme. That IS the genre.

[@livinginthenow]

@@salomeydraws * sighs deeply * No. It's not rocket science. If it were SCIENCE of any kind, there would be concrete parameters to guide the writer in labeling genre instead of this "you'll know it when you see it" business. I get the fact that it seems very clear to many folks. I accept that fact that I'm in the minority. But it's not as small a minority as you might think. There are plenty of people like me for whom it is about as clear as a bucket full of rocky road ice cream (with Dijon mustard and kerosene mixed in, just make it taste nasty too). My confusion lies in the fact that my current manuscript is YA (category), and has Bildungsroman (genre), and Mystery (genre), and Supernatural (genre) aspects to it. So how do I pitch that? Is there a bookshelf for YA/Mystery/Bildungsroman/Supernatural books? Seriously, without clear instructions on which of these genres supersedes the rest, I won't be able to pick just one. My blurb and synopsis both illustrate all of these, so anyone I submit it to will have the information they need to pitch the book. They will just have make their own assessment of what the genre is, because I cannot.

[@livinginthenow]

@@salomeydraws It's a shame it isn't rocket science. At least then there would be concrete parameters to help a writer label their manuscript, instead of this "you'll know it when you see it" business.

[@Justafox305]

Question. what if you have a commercial novel that is paranormal, however on query tracker, there is usually only a drop down for fantasy or contemporary. Should I go ahead and select fantasy, even if that's not the exact same thing?

[@BookEndsLiterary]

Hi! It might depend on the type of paranormal. A lot of paranormal ends up under horror, as well. In any case, whichever genre is the closest to accurate should be the one you choose. If it incites feelings of unease, maybe horror would be closer than fantasy! If it's more about the adventure and mythical creatures, it could be closer to fantasy. If it's mostly focused in the real world and character growth, it could be contemporary with a paranormal lean.

[@Justafox305]

@@BookEndsLiterary Thank you so much!

[@ArtemisMS]

That's the good thing about being a fantasy writer! We're simple folk. We know what we are! 😂😂 RE: age groups, I would love a discussion on MG, YA, and adult, and all the crossover spaces in between! (e.g. is upper MG dead? is NA self-pub romance only? is crossover fantasy more successful than YA/adult?)

[@marjoriedybec3450]

I just finished reading "A Man Called Ove" which had me sniffling or outright crying throughout most of the book. I asked the Googler what Genre it is. Site after Site lists it as HUMOROUS Fiction. I don't think that's funny.

[@beheadingbuddha4256]

Love you guys, always fabulous videos. But please can you do a video exploring how woke ideology influences agents and publishers in this crazy world of ultra political correctness? New writers everywhere would benefit immensely if you discussed how the publishing industry has reacted to the Far Left political activism we see infiltrating and subverting pop culture all across the world. For example, would Hemingway get published today? Start there. And then go deeper. Don't be afraid to do it guys. Be bold and give us your "Defining Woke" video. Peace and love x

[@livinginthenow]

This is the really frustrating thing: a writer's function is to WRITE the book, not to define it. It's not really his/her job to decide what shelf the book goes on or how to market it. That isn't where their expertise lies, and it isn't how they make their living. While it's totally understandable that agents and publishers want to know what the general genre and age category is before they take a look at a submission, expecting an author to PRECISELY and ACCURATELY define it seems like they are asking writers to do their job for them. This is why your previous video "Know Your Genre" was so frustrating. I know I'm whining here, but if a writer provides a well written piece, why can't they rely on their agent to decide what genre to label it and pitch it as? Why is there so much emphasis on whether or not a writer "knows their genre" if they aren't the ones who will be marketing it?

[@natyboops]

That's true, except how do you decide which agent to send your query to? I agree that it's difficult...I'm struggling with this too...but there's lots of stuff writers need to learn to do even though it's not writing itself.

[@kanashiiookami6537]

I agree to an extent. I do think authors should have a general handle on what genre they're writing in. In broad terms, is it fantasy, sci-fi, horror, etc? Because that can help you find the right agent. The thing that confuses me is all the sub genres we're expected to know and how opinions of readers, agents, publishers and writers seem to differ on what is what. And that literary fiction, up market and commercial? Until I started looking into agencies I'd *never* heard of those terms. Closest I got was libraries shelving Christian/inspirational fiction away from Mainstream fiction (as if the normal stuff would somehow corrupt their books). So when I tried to Google what up market and literary is (rather than going in the thought process that they sound too posh to be something I thought I'd be into) I found next to no info and what I did find, people couldn't agree on. (So I'm glad they sort of explained that in the video. I just wished they woulda gone in-depth on sub genres rather than say "well the author should know, it's not my job" when last I checked, agents have to be just as knowledgeable about genres and sub genres to help sell the book. 🤷)

[@AnastasiaCreates]

@@kanashiiookami6537 yes! I learned about upmarket and literary etc researching agencies too. And as a reader I don't go looking specifically for narrow categories like that when I'm interested in reading a new book. As a writer I would love to have unlimited creativity time and only focus on the contents of the book. But this IS a business, and agents and publishers expect your book to fit a certain mold. They want to have a steady income that's based on previous success, not necessarily on your book's groundbreaking originality. This is helpful to know, but at the same time frightening. You want to be able to keep your own voice and to tell the stories that you care about, not the ones some numbers people are telling you to tell. Another thing is, agents are always saying we need to be up to speed and be well read on the modern stuff to understand the market and the genre... It's an agent's job to read all day and do marketing, not a writer's. A writer by definition writes. And how are you going to finish your book if you read all the latest releases and analyze all the genres and trends in addition to having a job and a family? Your book will never be up to date if you waste your time on everything other people write. So I want other writers out there to not get imposter syndrome just because they think they don't read enough. That being said, I LOVE reading, and I read as much as I can. But some of my favorite book are not newly published and there doesn't have to be anything wrong with that. I respect and understand an agent's POV too, they wouldn't want to be the nanny for your immature child, they want a book that knows what it is because in a way that makes sure that the author knows how to talk to the readership. I just wish there were more space for the agent to help a writer out when they are having trouble defining the genre specifically. Because writers are writers, they are not marketers and they don't spend as much time IN the thick of it

[@lanceevans1689]

SPOT ON!

[@freedomthroughspirit]

Agree! But understanding typical elements included within each genre is helpful to be aware of -- not in how we craft our story-- but in how it might be marketed later; help an editor or agent as a starting point.

[@merlcycle8058]

Literary Fiction = employs “poetic prose”