Demons & the Machine, John Vervaeke & Jonathan Pageau

This is part 2 of an exclusive conversation between Jonathan Pageau and John Vervaeke recorded in Toronto recently.
In it John and Jonathan reflect on the recent ‘War on Reality’ piece with Paul Kingsnorth and Mary Harrington: • The War on Reality, Ma...
They ask whether we have replaced virtue with value. They also take a turn into the question of the occult, where Jonathan and John talk about whether concepts such as ‘demons’ can be explained as independently existing patterns of reality.
Very grateful to Dan Hammond for the audio mix.

[@bobdmb]

This is pure joy. I agree, I am hearing the first notes of the new world in listening to you. Thank you Jonathan, John, David and team for this.

[@echoplexmedia]

These are fake smart people. David Fuller did a video a while back saying RW was coming to an end, but he must have realized that there are still a bunch of old people he can take advantage of who signed up to make monthly payments.

[@Kwalk1989]

Rebel wisdom is really getting sweet towards the end, what an absolutely fantastic conversation.

[@kbeetles]

An excellent example of an honest and friendly conversation when at the end of it you are left with a sense that something moved on as a result. Some insight, a kindling understanding, an interesting manoeuvre of the vessels out in the open, rough waters of truth. Hard to capture it yet with words but this is so much more promising than the Utopia painted by some of the "big thinkers" of our times. Thank you all!

[@triscat]

Tears have come to my eyes from listening to these amazing two conversations. Thank you.

[@ShadowTechAlchemy]

Love it!! Regarding Jonathan’s comments on evil as a parasitic force, demonology and possession, this subject is right up my alley. At 23:45 he says: “To understand demonology is to understand that evil is transpersonal, it has a kind of parasitic intelligence. You can recognize it, name it and see the pattern, and you can notice it when it embodies itself. And you can see that most of us will give up to some “demon” sometimes ( I get angry, etc.), but then sometimes some people get completely ‘taken over’ by a parasitic pattern and possessed. “ Putting on my Jungian hat here, the reason why Hannah Arendt noticed “the banality of evil” is because of the ego/shadow boundary in the psyche. We push down and repress our primal, animalistic drives that are unsuitable in civilized society where they fester and grow in the personal and collective unconscious (the shadow). We utilize cognitive dissonance so that we cannot see our own inbuilt evil and we throw our primal and uncivilized drives and intentions onto other people (projection, scapegoating). But our shadow material is not just raw energy floating about, irrationally popping up here and there. The human psyche is an ecosystem of energetic “entities” that translate, process, displace and sublimate raw energy into functional behavior in the same way that a cell is composed of organelles that process molecular energy to be used by the body. In the Jungian view, there exist many collective “archetypes” in the genetics of humanity that constitute our raw energetic drives which are then processed into the personality by what Jung called “complexes”. There are functional complexes (mother complex, father complex, the ego, the persona, etc) and then there are dysfunctional “autonomous complexes” which Jung also called “splinter psyches”. These are your demons. In innumerable ways, specific and developmental trauma can wound the developing psyche causing a fracture or split which gives rise to an autonomous complex. In the case where someone is “possessed” by anger for example, a complex has been triggered and is gaining access to the conscious ego where its energetic needs are fulfilled by the behavior it activates. Now what if a byproduct of consciousness itself is a split between ego and unconscious that by default creates the shadow and within it autonomous complexes, and that an entire shadow tapestry or ecosystem is living side by side with our conscious lives pushed out of view by cognitive dissonance? Here we get to the dark energy behind the “machine” and the “banality of evil”. Jungian shadow work is a process of going down the rabbit hole into the shadow to bring this material up. “Taking the red pill” is a colloquial term that means the same thing but it points to the shadow as it plays out in culture and social systems as corruption or “integrated” evil. Depending on the stage of psycho-social consciousness we are in ( I often use the Integral stage system), we will personify this shadow ecosystem and its constituent parts as spirits, demons or the devil, complexes, or we will project it out onto other groups that threaten our primal needs, etc. Now, why do people intuit that evil is autonomous or exogenous to the personal psyche? For one, because there is a discordance between shadow material and the conscious ego which cannot integrate it so it’s perceived as “other”. But also because the psyche itself is not limited to the individual body. I like Daniel Seigel’s definition of mind as “an embodied and relational field of energy and information”. The psyche itself is a collective “state” maintained between all in a society but also resonating with the entire biosphere. All of our psychic material, conscious and unconscious, beneficial or parasitic is collective. So evil (shadow energy) is an autonomous and somewhat external force, but so are the energies that we think of as loving and mutualistic. Love can take you over because some complexes are seeking that kind of possession while anger or hatred can take you over because the complexes channeling that elemental energy are written with that type of scripting. Therefore we personify this as both angels and demons and all kinds of spirits and deities. Are they real? Sure. Archetypes are real and complexes of the human psyche are real but we have to symbolize them to see them just as we have to write down an idea into words or create a movie character to transform psychic patterns into conscious meaning. Technocracy seems to me to be just the newest form of the shadow archetype of tyranny which is the result of the imbalanced Royal (king/queen) archetype in the collective psyche. See Robert L. Moore. In the modern west where we have outgrown monarchy, an oligarchical technocracy is a regression and is a symptom of too many people continuing to live out a parent-child relationship with authority instead of psycho-spiritually developing their own personal sovereignty. The recent C-19 scenario showed us how dire our situation is. An autonomous complex channeling the tyranny archetype in the collective psyche pushed itself up into our lives and we buckled. Technocracy is the nightmare that we are collectively dreaming up to show us that we are “way” out of balance and that we are totally falling down on the job of maintaining psycho-social-spiritual health. As more of us take personal responsibility for our own shadow material, our own thoughts and behavior, and live lives of high psycho-social integrity, technocracy will falter and burn out.

[@starkid9736]

top! thx 4 ur effort

[@MikeTownsend]

this is the best youtube comment ever...

[@pierresaelen3097]

While reading your comment, I wondered whether you were familiar with the work of the late Robert L. Moore, a neo-Jungian, and then I noticed that you refer to him. Too bad that he passed away just when Jordan B. Peterson stepped to the fore, because I would have loved to hear Moore discuss with Peterson how Jungian thought fits with the most recent findings from empirical psychology. The same with John Vervaeke, whereas Moore and Pageau would have been great discussion partners on symbolism. I do hope that one day at least one of those three starts linking their work with the teachings of Robert L. Moore.

[@candaniel]

Not a Jungian myself but I tend to find the insights intelligent Jungians can share insightful and interesting to say the least. Thanks for the comment!

[@ShadowTechAlchemy]

@@candaniel You might like the work of Robert L. Moore ("King, Warrior, Magician, Lover" book) which will take you into a very practical and useful version of Jungian theory. Another commenter here, Pierre mentioned him as well.

[@papercut7141]

Love listening to these guys. Love to understand what they're saying one day

[@dog-headedman2634]

Haha, yeah, for the longest time I just thought to myself “I don’t understand what they’re saying but there’s something here.”

[@domwren]

Hahaha

[@mathewhill5556]

I've been listening to Vervaeke for two years now, and everytime something he's said clicks into place it's a really interesting experience.

[@kwameowusu8351]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@echoplexmedia]

If they can't speak in a way that a regular person can understand, they're actually just blinding you with fake smart person jargon. I guess you like that.

[@fernanda_carcamo]

I love the bromance between these two great minds!! Thank you!!!

[@mostlydead3261]

Pageau being on Rebel Wisdom at this moment is p much him sending a message to Peterson.. respect for that..

[@donkeykong6602]

What do you mean?

[@StephanieMoDavis]

Beautiful. Now we need to add the subjective experiencer, the feminine, the non-intellectual but rather emotionally self aware perhaps spiritually embodied. Stretch ourselves

[@RomanKosins]

This was a one was pretty good. As a Buddhist I can say we have no problem believing in demons and also seeing them as aspects of our own mind. One of the things about demons is that they have an immense amount of energy that can be harnessed for good. We have beings called protectors that were ancient demons that we conquered and put into the service of protecting the holy dharma. The only catch is that you have to feed them the blood of your own ego to keep them happy and healthy. They have an insatiable delight in consuming all delusional beliefs in permanence and impermanence.

[@abbasalchemist]

Well said. In ancient Greek tradition, they differentiate between 3 kinds of daemons, and the so-called "evil" ones are precisely the variety that seek to place appropriate limits on the ego's self-inflation and pushing of boundaries. They provide the proper metria or measure of cosmic movement---without them we'd cease to have a kosmos and instead we'd have Tartarian Chaos.

[@Groundedclear108]

There is a possibility that some of the group or energy collective called Protector is still an unconquered and life-negating force. Heard this from a TB acquaintance long ago. Caution advised. Reminds me of the 2010 era popular Steven Greer assumption that all (presumed) ETs are benevolent.

[@johnellis3040]

God is in the house, been a long wait ;) wonderful & energising

[@tensevo]

Brilliant, always have time for this stuff.

[@MimicMethod]

There is no way to claim with certainty the metaphysical existence or non-existence of demons. I find, however, that when I inhabit the worldview that they do exist, my language and perceptions feel sharper, my general sense of meaning is enhanced, and my motivation to act courageously in alignment with my values is massively improved, all with the end result of a better quality of life for myself and the people around me.. Then when I inhabit the worldview where they don't exist, I experience the exact opposite effects. Makes me think of the Keiser Sose quote: "The greatest trick the devil ever played was to convince the world that he didn't exist."

[@KillerKabel]

I love this comment section with all the Vervaekians and the Pageauians. Your wordings were spot on Vervaekian, very sound and observant and 'scientific' in a way, yet still exploring the deep mystical things Pageau is bringing back.

[@MimicMethod]

​@@KillerKabel Thanks! Yes i'm half vervaekian and half Pageuian. Which is probably the main internal conflict of my psyche, which is why I get so excited whenever these two enter dialogos because it brings the two in every greater synthesis.

[@jonmonkman]

So nice to see a conversation where these guys are in the same room! Post covid, it would be great to see these happening more often.

[@conornagle9528]

Just as Jonathan says about John's work, and indirectly about his own work which has been such a factor in my own experience is "(John's) work affords us a possibility to go back into these old grimoires with a language for today". Along those lines, not quite verbatim. The gratitude for dialogues like this cannot fully be expressed. God bless all of you.

[@dawnmuir5052]

Wonderful! Just love jumping into the flow with these two. David is beaming too during much of it! ,❤️Hope there will be many more conversations between them that we can have the privilege of listening in on and sharing the joy. Thank you!

[@soapmode]

Understanding how this comes down to Limit is key. Those pushing for ultimate freedom are actually pushing for pure, unbridled Chaos.

[@KR-jq3mj]

JV and JP are such great communicators 👍

[@smicksatusadotnet]

Excellent! Mr. Fuller, I had never heard of Mr. Vervaeke before Rebel Wisdom, but this convo was the most thought-provoking I've heard yet, from him (including many hours spent on his lecture series that you pointed us to last year). What's next?

[@dog-headedman2634]

John, I love you, I think your comment about what your hoping to build was describing Orthodoxy. It’s all there. Just have to make the choice to believe. Faith is a choice we Orthodox make every day.

[@danielfoliaco3873]

7:34 😮🤯. Sensei Jhon, this felt like you were lecturing me to think better. 👍🏼

[@leedufour]

Thanks Jonathan, John and David!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee.

[@4real277]

So sad rebel wisdom is ending....who else organises discussions like this between different nuanced points of view that doesn’t get taken off track and progresses it along. Vervaeke and Paul’s discussions can end up lost in the weeds.

[@ClassPunkOnRumbleAndSubstack]

It can happen anywhere that's not a date.

[@landryprichard6778]

I took in a boarder recently for the fjrst time ever. Three weeks. She was bipolar. I was able to get her back to her estranged family after 3.5 years. It took a toll on me. I quit smoking a few months ago. The stress of helping, and the fact she was a smoker got me back into it. I dont blame her, but even a very intuitive neighbor mentioned that she had a dark cloud around her. I feel like something rubbed off on me, and it feels a bit unsettling. And, so, I am looking for a new meaning of what it is to be possessed. But how can we help others without a part of them becoming a part of us without succumbing to some of the darker elements as well? Frustrating.

[@cozzwozzle]

☦️

[@landryprichard6778]

@@cozzwozzle Greek Orthodox?

[@landryprichard6778]

@Charm Ming Oh, I am humbled by this in a big way, for sure. Seeing our works as a river flowing through us as God is the originator.

[@cozzwozzle]

I personally am part of a Greek Orthodox church, but Orthodoxy is the same whether Russian, Serbian etc etc. What's astonishing is that Charm Ming perfectly articulated my intention of responding with the Orthodox Cross. I wanted to say "Christ is the answer" but it is said so often and with no further insight or depth that I relented to just answering with a symbol in the hope of helping to point you in the right direction. We must be vigilant, because sometimes we can help someone in such a way that we are imposing our own will upon others, and as such, it is not necessarily the will of God, and it can actually cause further suffering to the other person and to ourselves. Sometimes we can interfere with another person's spiritual journey by trying to help. Not all help is good or fruitful. God bless you for helping that person. Truly, God bless you. But for you to then be afflicted with the same spiritual darkness. To be infected with the same parasite is not good. When you are in a proper relationship with Christ, it doesn't happen like that, the darkness will hound you, but it can't get a hold of you. It can't sink its teeth in. I highly recommend, that you find an Orthodox church nearby if there is one, and ask to speak to the priest. With patience and with God's help, you will find an answer to the question of how do I help another person without succumbing to the dark elements. And for the record, I struggle big time with smoking/vaping. I ask God every day for help with it. I'll potentially struggle with it for the rest of my life. A cross for me to bare. Once I started to acknowledge it as a demonic spirit mixed with the God-shaped hole in my soul, rather than reducing it to a mental/physical addiction, AND with Gods grace, I've been making small but vast improvements every day. I hope you can find the same.

[@pierresaelen3097]

@Charm Ming This is an interesting view. I'm trying to tie it into what I the little I know about neurology: could it be that when we see ourselves as the originator of help we have nobody for our mirror neurons to focus upon except the person in need with all his or her dark energy, whereas when we have the image of God in our minds while helping as his channel (for Christians: the Holy Spirit working through us), we can divert our mirror neurons to mirror the image of God or Jesus, and by this way absorb positive energy rather than the negative energy that we see in front of us? In other words: our mirror neurons are always on the lookout to mirror someone, better have them focus on the image of God.

[@jamespercy8506]

parasitic intelligence of evil, excellent insight

[@MsLickalot70]

Thank you guys, this was awesome. First time I noticed John to open up. Respect. Opening up is scary

[@DerekJFiedler]

Ooo a part 2. Nice 😎

[@CraigTalbert]

Re: 22:45 - it's strange that not everyone is talking like this.

[@suburbangothic_sublimedivine]

A beautiful conversation between three fascinating people. There is an interesting convergence with the jungian ideas of complexes that split off into autonomous archetypes and demonic 'possession' which I think is in the space Jonathan is taking about. Jung wrote : “…what is not so well known, but far more important theoretically, is that complexes can have us. … The unity of consciousness is disrupted and the intentions of the will are impeded or made impossible”. Powerful complexes split off as autonomous archetypes, like possessions, have: “...a powerful inner coherence, it has its own wholeness and, in addition, a relatively high degree of autonomy, so that it is subject to the control of the conscious mind to only a limited extent, and therefore behaves like an animated foreign body in the sphere of consciousness.” (Jung).

[@jrboi22]

Embodiment. That seems to be the most seaworthy vessel available to navigate these perilous waters. Oh the liminal space We are being invited to embody the Truth as it's continuing to be revealed. The Truth of The Most High and our true selves. God is reconciling the world to Himself. Very painful. Very suffering. But a life embodied in Truth is a victorious life. ...Ok back to navigating what I'm perceiving to be the pain and suffering of my life.

[@BurtKocain]

I feel like a child when I listen to these titans speak.

[@liammccann8763]

I have tracked RW since it's launch. For me, this discussion seems to sum up RW. Engaging, fascinating discussions with no-one possessing sufficient courage to state their belief, apart from JP in this particular broadcast.

[@cynanomite]

In academia, in addition to the terms Vervaeke used, the tendency would be to frame as a psycho/social phenomenon rather than metaphysical. For instance, instead of egregore, and especially demon, you would use "mass formation", etc.

John, you're wondering how to position the institutions for the future and make them complementary to each other. I would say you're partly doing it right now. The science and the church is coming together in a small but important way through you and Johnathan. I would imagine a way forward would be for you two, and analogous constellations, to try and manifest solutions and practices that can be shared and integrated in society.

[@1walkerw]

Mattias Desmet would be great to bring in here as well!

[@pierresaelen3097]

Agreed

[@gregorywitcher5618]

I feel like the world is coming alive again too Jonathan!

[@dionysis_]

Wonderful conversation!

[@justinlaporte9414]

"Understand this in a better way that the horror movie does not understand" well put!!!

[@CocoNAble]

Very happy to be watching. Only, there's one word that I do not understand or hear well. It sounds like naussissism, is it about gnosticism or narcissism or something I do not know? It sounds like it's a crucial word within this conversation. Anyone?

[@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026]

“Language limits me but it also affords me.” John Verwaeke Another explanation for Dante’s choice of stuffing the end of Paradiso with Christian dogma Wow!

[@thinkwhileeatingpasta5217]

What do we mean by affording here?

[@tensevo]

24:40 I don't think there is anything spooky about somebody being "possessed" by demons, that have "a life of their own", it seems like their brain is trapped in a pattern of negative thinking, anger and depression, it is completely coherant and even helpful to think of the demons, as acting on or through the body or individual, whilst not being physical entities.

[@iananderson8288]

8:00 virtue to value , nice

[@MimicMethod]

aaaaawwwwww sheeeiiiit!!!! This is EXACTLY what i want to watch

[@ICANTOUCHTHESUN]

You can only love John!

[@lisaonthemargins]

They're so amped damn

[@rmurray8913]

heavy hitters 💪

[@shawntucker9283]

I love both these guys, especially Johnathan as the symbology is so important. You guys are speaking at this coming revelation, an unveiling. Its like we are fueling the system of machine to totality in hopes that we free the lost wisdom from below. The answer in analogy: will be contained in the aqua doctrinae beneath the great pyramid as we lift from the plateau so to speak and see what comes from underneath it. The needs of the one will be found as we invert that pyramid. Also- significantly for me was to realize that the modern symbol of the cross ✝️...most of do not realize the 3ft underneath the earth touch ing the underworld in some sense, and infusing the christs blood right into the nutrients underneath the earth. It is the the two symbols of Christ and anti Christ become visible as a sacred pact and the puzzle takes shape. Besides we need to not just scale to humanity, but just what exactly will we need next to take our place amongst the tribes of the stars.

[@danielfoliaco3873]

36:50 why Agape (love) have lost the protagonist role in the ritual? I think the answer is learning how to love properly. The concept that love aquire in the RR theory allows a diagnosis and a prescription to the meaning crisis. Sensei, what means to properly love?

[@thelement3363]

john, i would love to spend a few minutes talking with you about locating and locking into reality. I have studied it deeply 5 years. The few ive shared it with appear and attempt to relay it is too real and this disgusting fantacy that is today is safer by some sort of dissonence and infantile helplessness.

[@tensevo]

parallel systems, v opposing forces

[@pedrom8831]

The thing about the ‘fully automated luxury Gnosticism’ concept is that Mary simultaneously decries the trans movement for turning female bodies into ‘meat Lego’, which, while clearly derogatory, still maintains the utility and significance of bodies, whilst also claiming that these progressives are gnostics. Matter can’t be simultaneously evil and yet also crucial in affirming ones identity. It just seems like an incoherent analysis when part of a conversation which claims to be trying to make sense of our moment.

[@willgiorno1740]

❤

[@mr-century]

Free To voluntary enslave yourself, and to love the candy coated Nestle brand whip

[@ethanb2554]

A prisoner in Chains, and I cast away at sea. One has absolute constraint the other absolutely no constraint. But both have no freedom.

[@bedcech]

Thought David had the good sense to shut down Rebel Wisdom? Or was that just a stunt from one of the kabuki theatre actors to get some views?

[@maggen_me7790]

At one point John talks like an expecting mother :) Isn't the irreplaceable the Pregnant body,- the ultimate relational dialog (agent/arena) between Mother and child....not mechanistic but reseptiv both ways....

[@markweswhit869]

David in your next venture you should talk to David N. Hempton. FRHistS.

[@brendancahill3723]

Watching those cups of water as John is talking got me like: 😰

[@stanleykubrick8786]

These guys sound like they’re competing for the World Stuttering Championship. “That That That That That … I I I I … “ Also, who is the “They” that they keep referring to? Could it be them themselves? As in Heidingers’s “Dad man”? , or the ‘They’ who killed the Kennedy’s, in The Stone’s, Sympathy For the Devil?

[@adempc]

It is fit to point out somewhere in here that Satan and God are the same person.. their psychology can express itself differently, but they are the same.

[@christophlindinger2267]

John V is in a dangerous place. He truly thinks he can figure all of this out by himself, out of himself. He needs prayer, by us for him, and eventually he will have to just bend the knee and acknowledge God.

[@mikeljmcphee]

What is a demon?

[@iananderson8288]

22:50

[@PeeGee85]

I took JBP's advice and wrote an essay, analysing life, society and social media as a set of nested games, both embodied (objective) and unembodied (subjective). I would really appreciate some critiques/reviews! I can't post a link, since youtube will automatically delete it. It's on Substack, look for "The meaning crisis: Life as an unembodied game" by Rik Lubking. The story follows almost exactly the beginning of this conversation, and tries to tie things together through the analogy of games, judges and competitions. I really hope you'll enjoy it. Thanks for all the content and inspiration!

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

Only Pageau can openly talk about angels and demons and not be laughed out of an interview lol 😇👿

[@clarebags]

I think you guys are deliberately being obtuse in this session. Pageau is an artist and works with symbolism and metaphor. John Vervaeke is an intellectual cognitive psychologist. Surely they can have a conversation which to me was perfectly clear, without the accusations levelled at them in this piece of obfuscation and an oblique way of bringing in medieval thought?

[@tonym6566]

33:00 ish

[@Nickname-ln9iw]

You can close your eyes and be a horse, don't need the metaverse for that, just a well trained imagination.

[@christheother9088]

that is useful for all manner of situations.

[@maggen_me7790]

Make me think that the downplay/attac on womans body/uterus is a parallel/mirroring threat to the unlimited access (freedom)... A constant reminder of the limit of not being able to be truly free,- Mother stands in the way. Not easy to get around that knowleg.

[@_ARCATEC_]

📕

[@Lysanderfication]

Managed discourse is torture

[@1walkerw]

Would be interesting to hear them talk about Communism. James Lindsay makes it very clear that Karl Marx was just a Gnostic theologian.

[@catejames6453]

I’m sick of men discussing these topics and issues. Not that I don’t appreciate their contributions. No. But because it’s obvious humanity will recapitulate the same conditions if women aren’t fully integrated into the fold. Not sure where the onus lays…

[@improvisedchaos8904]

None of this conversation exclusively applies to men. Are you upset it's merely men talking? Jordan's wife will have talks with Johnathon sometimes. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

[@improvisedchaos8904]

I don't think anybody wants to engage in a discussion with somebody who is "sick" of them. You can just go back into your self pity corner.

[@mcnallyaar]

44:00 listen to women. Allow women to be priests and presidents. Not as mysterious as you're acting like it is.

[@thegoldenthread]

Singularity as the Rapture of the Nerds. That is *beautiful*.

[@myfirstseven8316]

Instant standout line

[@Hitlerbaddaringood]

Can y'all turn the volume up?

[@MoiLiberty]

Jonathan Pageau has real understanding, intuition, genius about him. He can talk to Psychologist, Neuroscientist, and other materialist about the metaphysical and not be laughed out of the room. Pageau tells us something about the time we are leaving in.

[@cozzwozzle]

Glory to God.

[@06rtm]

Brilliant comment

[@the300XM8]

Perfectly articulated

[@MoiLiberty]

@William Woke I agree. Jordan Peterson walked me to water, Jonathan Pageau showed me that drinking water is not just the source of the good, it's undeniable.

[@06rtm]

@William Woke I view Pageau as the end destination and Peterson as the bridge. Peterson paved the way for Pageau to be acceptable

[@kingsalmonfish8889]

This is absolutely one of the best conversations I've ever heard. Unbelievably relieved to see the bottleneck being addressed directly.

[@echoplexmedia]

hahahahahahahaha

[@Deli-Kaatje]

Beautiful conversation. I recognize so much what John said at the end about, not knowing exactly which way my life will unfold, the only thing I know for sure is that I have to take full responsibility for all what's coming. That's why I start small and simple by taking care of my direct environment. Helping my refugee neighbor with her garden, picking up plastics in my local park and streets. Listen to the stories of my people I live with in this community. I will do my best to be a light in dark times, because I feel that's my purpose. Thank you all for sharing your wisdom and take care ❤️

[@progressivelibertarian2570]

This was an important point. People have to embody maturity, courage, discipline, virtue in every way by living it right here, right now.

[@landryprichard6778]

I am right there with you. Help your very local humans.

[@emanuelgomez1623]

Well said

[@tensevo]

leading by example is under-rated, most want to tell you what to do, but unwilling to do the things themselves.

[@ryanweeks1177]

Thanks again, David, for your honest work, and amazing conversations like these that illuminate some of the darkness in these times. I wish you all the luck and power in your pursuit to integrate some of this gold into the mainstream.

[@echoplexmedia]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[@dog-headedman2634]

Well guys, it’s been nearly 2 years of daily listening to Pageau and I can finally follow a conversation with him and Vervaeke in real time and understand it.

[@fakename3208]

Yeah I was gonna say, my head was spinning after the first ten minutes. This is gold though, from what I can follow!

[@kwameowusu8351]

This is so true. And I always wonder what kept me listening over the years since I truly didn’t understand it. Was it faith? Somehow I knew these guys had something to teach me even flight I couldn’t fully grasp what they were saying. Recently started rewatching the awakening from the meaning crisis series and everything is making so much sense now. For anyone starting this journey hang in there. It’ll take some time but it’ll start ti crystallize and come together. Thanks John and Jonathan. I feel like my transformation is just beginning and I owe it all to you.

[@dog-headedman2634]

@@kwameowusu8351 I think so!

[@CrazyLinguiniLegs]

Maybe chimps look at us and whisper amongst themselves of the dangers of transchimpanzeeism.

[@ZiggaRats]

right before they 'disassemble' us for being an abomination. usually beginning with the hands, because opposable thumbs are the work of chimp satan.

[@papercut7141]

Bro i do that

[@thombales1299]

I'm curious if John and Jonathan are familiar with the work of Walter Wink. He was a primarily a Biblical theologian who took guidance from multi-disciplinary resources - Jung, Whitehead, evolutionary science, quantum physicists and more. His most famous work was a trilogy of books about the language of power in the Bible: Naming the Powers, Unmaking the Powers and Engaging the Powers. His thesis was the language in the Bible - angels, demons, Satan, angels of nature, principalities, elements of the universe, etc. - pointed to something quite real, but a different language would be required given how science has shaped our understanding of the world, i.e., God could no longer be regarding as "up there". The chapter he wrote about demons made the hair on my neck stick up, because he took seriously the experience of people assaulted by demons and really did think the language pointed to something quite real, autonomous and malevolent. Regarding worldviews, he championed what he called an integral worldview, whereby ALL reality has inner and outer aspects.

[@anamcara7068]

Good connection there, Thom. Indeed, Wink's work is seminal: how to identify the fingerprints of what he called the domination system and the malevolent agency of the powers. He also discusses how to overcome evil.

[@StrangerByTheHour]

Can you recommend a specific title from Wink? Thanks in advance 🙏

[@thombales1299]

@@StrangerByTheHour His most famous work was a trilogy, "Naming the Powers", "Unmaking the Powers", "Tranforming the Powers". These were condensed into a small book entitled, "The Powers that Be: Theology for a New Millennium".

[@StrangerByTheHour]

@@thombales1299 thank you!

[@markweswhit869]

Luke 3 has an important question, verse 10 “What should we do?”. Maybe at a time where maximum violence is haunting us, the answer is maximum generosity. Great convo, thanks gents 🙏.

[@abbasalchemist]

Desire is a void. It cannot be satiated by externalities. Desire seeks the ACT of desiring.

[@jennysteves]

Such a beautiful conversation. In these times of grief I feel hope listening to such genuine and vulnerable conversation. I’m so very thankful that you three are in this world, now. Thank you for all you have done and will do,

[@MikeTownsend]

I love John V's excitement, especially when he responds to Jonathan

[@BlueEagle-yk6dg]

I gasped with excitement when I saw this. Love these two together :)

[@almondtree]

37:55 Suspicious of people that know the answer and try to establish a utopia. That’s good stuff. The pursuit of my own heaven will leave me in my hell.

[@DanielDSantos]

Thanks David for creating this space where we can go deep into the search to be our best version. To me, this next step needs to be around finding the higher (not common) ground. People are starting to get exhausted of the polarization, the ideologies that only create conflict and “us against them” attitudes. The kairos is now as John said and the need for higher ground is the basis for the yellow integral meme

[@smurfe2126]

The meek will inherit the world = power naturally befalls to those who least compete for it

[@jamespercy8506]

when does parasitic become symbiotic? A symbiot is a parasite that gives back more than it consumes. Which hyperobjects are symbiots and which are simple parasites?

[@papercut7141]

You just answered your own question. Parasites take and shrink their host. Symbiotic relationships are reciprocal and grow. Look for what leeches and what supports. If you're new to vervaeke, look into what he talks about with reciprocal narrowing vs reciprocal broadening, usually gets into it in the context of addiction and flow states

[@progressivelibertarian2570]

Actually parasitism is a form of symbiosis. Symbiosis is a spectrum where you have the most destructive necrotrophic parasitism on one end, then mild parasitism all the way out to high levels of symbiosis they call mutualism. Evil is human behavior that tends towards extreme parasitism or predation.

[@benjaminfranklin7263]

I want to be free from the prison of my flesh. I want to be free. If you stand in the path that Omnissiah has cleared for us, then you must be my enemy and I must defeat you.

[@papercut7141]

Benjamin Franklin tweaking hard today

[@alphabeta8284]

Virveki is looking for God.

[@lebenergy247]

It is fascinating to watch these 2 men struggle for the right words and they always come out with such amazing insights

[@TimeGhost7]

I should just offer gratitude for a great conversation, but I wouldn't choose to comment, unless I said more, so... The words used, have properties that people less versed in their knowledge will judge them inaccurate by, but that is an issue of reach, which limits all voices. They have to assume an associational consistancy similar to themself to communicate, yet I think they're happy enough that they do reach who they do. Jonathan commented on how the communication gap has narrowed between John and him. ie. John does understand cognitive science expressed in a religious language (at least how Jonathan expresses it), and I do too, where once I did not. It feels the properly spoken synthesis of the 2 sides is currently unpopular to both audiences (preferd to be thought of from one side or the other) even if understanding of the other has been reached by some. I wonder if it'll remain so.

[@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026]

Desire is longing. Longing is what moves us and opens our perceptual system to what is being revealed.

[@Mystery_G]

There seems to be a middle space from which John and Johnathan can find connection as it relates to their conversation on evil when I take into consideration R. Otto's notion of the numinous and specifically his concepts of the mysterium and tremendum, in that this appears to speak to both the mystical framing of Johnathan and the scientific framing of John, and I'm curious as to why, for John, this isn't a concept I'm familiar with him bringing up and potentially utilizing as challenge to accepting any variety of vice. Upon considering Otto's mentioned concepts, it then seems to align with both John and Johnathan's notion of the value in maximizing virtue in order to limit, to the best of our ability, the naturalness of the tremendums attempt to divert us from the mysterium.

[@thomassimmons1950]

"Now we see in a mirror darkly; but then face to face." (Saint Paul) Out standing dialogue. Insightful, humble Struggle...thanks to all three of these noble souls!!!

[@matthewmargo8573]

Hahaha