Depth, Mastery, and Vanquish

[@ShanePatSmith]

"Any fighting game worth its salt" Don't worry there is plenty of salt to go around

[@remembertotakeshowerspleas355]

+Shane Smith STREET FIGHTER 5 BABY

[@joelmulder]

Shane Smith i

[@khatack]

Especially in versus mode against your friends ^^

[@carstorm85]

I tried to master life, I have yet to succeed.

[@IEnjoyBeingNaked]

I'm so glad people are still making videos about Vanquish. There really is a lot more to the combat than just hiding behind cover and spraying the assault rifle, like how some reviewers were playing when the game first came out. There's tons of neat tricks and strategies you can do like knocking bigger enemies and grouping them together with the LFE gun then throwing several grenades into them and into going AR mode and detonating them all another shot of the LFE gun.

[@vaiyt]

I think the reviewers were doing that out of reflex from playing so many cover shooters. Maybe Vanquish would have had a better reception if it ditched the cover mechanic and focused on being a crazy skidding murder machine.

[@DeathBringer769]

It's taken 10 years for people to stop looking at and playing every 3rd person shooter as some version of Gears, lol...

[@igorthelight]

And now Bayonetta and Vanquish have a second wave of fans because they are out on Steam.

[@kudosbudo]

Bayonetta yes, its well designed and not boring. Can't say the same for Vanquish. Bayonetta gives you a lot of information to learn but its all there while Vanquish (apart from being a bit boring) didn't. I got AR mode to trigger a few times but didn't at any point ever learn or understand why it was happening. Had I played longer maybe. But the game didn't tell me what was happening so it felt random. Had they given a way to practice these techniques like Bayonetta does then maybe more people would have used them and not written it off as a boring cover based shooter (like I did).

[@suspecthalo]

Also, just got a re-release on Steam 2 months ago. =)

[@WritingOnGames]

I AM SO HAPPY YOU MADE THIS EPISODE. I was literally just thinking about Vanquish the other day and remembering how much I adored it at the time. One of my favourite Platinum games for sure - a real shame that it doesn't get talked about as much as Bayonetta or MGR.

[@hanniffydinn6019]

I still play challenge modes every week, it's the most intense gaming high ever. There is real depth and skill to it, really just an intense gaming high. Nothing since can even compare to that buzz.

[@anti-ethniccleansing465]

@@hanniffydinn6019 So true!

[@NakeyJakey]

another fantastic video

[@kiwirain1235]

Liked your goopy goblin brain video

[@zedaddy3530]

You've got a bunch of em too!

[@elmaxo1591]

So how is the gooby goby brain

[@elmaxo1591]

How is uncle buck

[@elmaxo1591]

Yoga ball gamer

[@OV3RK1LL3R65]

Wow I had no idea you could melee off of cover and get some airtime. Welp, time for a new Vanquish playthrough.

[@abyzzwalker]

+OV3RK1LL3R65 yup the shotgun if I remember right is the one that gives you the air flip.

[@SherlockHyde]

Yeah, no I'm pretty sure the shotgun gives you the uppercut, I don't remember which weapon gives you the Flash Kick that you can chain into mid-air slowdown. The sniper rifle maybe? Either way, boost melee is always the kick that launches you if it connects with something.

[@Kaznor]

@@SherlockHyde 5 years later, I'm gonna say that shotgun's melee is a backhand slap that can be charged and counter enemy's melee attack if timing is right.

[@dantetouchdown9030]

@@Kaznor and ill say the air kick belongs to the pistol and the machine gun

[@Olderaccount17]

@@dantetouchdown9030 I *THINK* that the melee attack depends only on where the weapon is on the D-pad and not the weapon itself. For example, if you select your "upper" weapon, the melee attack will be the same regardlessof what weapon you've placed there.

[@MeatThatTalks]

Your videos are just getting more and more thoughtful and articulate. Honestly might be my favorite channel on KZbin right now. Keep it up, mate. Absolutely loving what you're doing here.

[@GMTK]

+Pete Crivellaro Thanks!

[@radsquid9541]

Wow, vanquish looks extremely good for it's age

[@andrewt9128]

Yes it does, holds up like a sonofabitch!

[@PauLtus_B]

I do think you're like the "Every Frame a Painting" of gaming. Talking about the very important things most people don't talk about.

[@PauLtus_B]

Good to know people feel similar. To me both their videos make me wonder why so little people talk about it (although I can guess) while it's so interesting and important.

[@GMTK]

+Kevin J. Dildonik Thanks. EFAP was obviously a big inspiration to start making this sort of thing and yes, I think a clear flow of ideas and a strong narrative structure is extremely important to keep viewers engaged and get my points across

[@PauLtus_B]

Game Maker's Toolkit Cool to hear. Both of your content is very interesting to watch. But you both stand out because you're not just discussing the stories, and what you're discussing is very inspirational and helpful for the people who want to create themselves.

[@anti-ethniccleansing465]

@@PauLtus_B Yeah only one of the two channels is still going strong in the year 2020.

[@PauLtus_B]

@@anti-ethniccleansing465 That's half a shame isn't it.

[@TheGamingBritShow]

*Slow twee quirky piano music in the background for a video on Platinum games*. Jack Status: Not letting 'er rip.

[@NoKiddingBoss]

+TheGamingBritShow if he used rock music then everyone will stop watching and instead start playing. you cannot deny the rules of nature.

[@chachawho435]

Make a video on the pc version of vanquish

[@eugenehahn559]

TheGamingBritShow I

[@ashers.5856]

The “Don’t press anything” music

[@suchayandas6136]

I thought you hated that moment

[@NevetsTSmith]

I'd like to see platinum take on a sonic game

[@twingtwang5547]

YESSSSS

[@ganaham9144]

That would be interesting

[@t.7527]

Nevets t. Smith I think Twisted Pixel Games would be alot better for Sonic.

[@1r0zz]

+Taure Anthony eeee no... seeing LocoCycle (or something like that) shows to me they would just do Sonic Boom 2

[@zaphero5518]

My gosh, I can scarcely imagine what that would be.

[@MarikBentusi]

Ahhh, man, watching this video felt liberating. I've always wondered why I kept replaying MG:Rising and continued to enjoy the combat more each time (which usually doesn't happen with other games - and I'm not really the type to seek out gameplay mastery consciously, so that thought just hadn't crossed my mind). And I've always had trouble more compactly expressing what "skill" means to me in something like Dota where revealing any obfuscated information for newbies is met with resistance from the hardcore community in the name of "lowering the game's skill requirements". (I believe skill has more to do with using your toolset cleverly, rather than crawling through wiki pages and youtube vids to notice the full toolset). I feel much clearer about my thoughts on both those topics after watching your video, thank you very much!

[@CoolRobbit]

Glad you mentioned Dota, I'm an ex-fan and long-time player. It annoys me when diehard fans praise it for being "the hardest and deepest thing ever" when 90% of its difficulty is in memorization an entire encyclopedia of mechanics and optimizing them to mathematical perfection. It falls into the "breadth" thing talked about in the video: there is a huge amount of mechanics, but ignoring a small handful of heroes, playing most every one of them is simply about pressing Q, W, E, and/or R once each at the optimal time when you're not minmaxing your farming output by last hitting or jungling, or playing matchups by remembering who you can and can't fight with which items and with which heroes missing on the map, which extend the memorization curve... but not really the execution or critical thought ones. I'd compare Dota to a really elaborate puzzle box. It's really intriguing when you first look at it, but once you solve the puzzle, it gets really boring really quickly. Even new patches just change the solution slightly. I think that's Dota's biggest problem, really. Once you remove the beginner-unfriendliness, the game's only challenging in meaningless, nitpicky ways that don't involve the rest of the players in the game as much as they do your knowledge of its convoluted ruleset. Maybe that's why the fans are so adamant about protecting that, I guess.

[@gamewhisperer6068]

All these years and still no Vanquish 2. I cry my self to sleep with my Sam figure gripped in my hands.

[@anti-ethniccleansing465]

😢😢😢😢😢😢

[@ManofOneGod]

I finished Vanquish many times and it is still one of my favorite games of all time. We can only hope to see a sequel. It very well deserves it.

[@RsnCheered]

Your videos are so professionally done, really inspiring mate, very enjoyable to watch as an aspiring games designer!

[@stevebob240]

Great video! I love Platinum games, they're all about making you feel like a badass. I love Kamiya's comment on the first playthrough being a tutorial, I feel like that applies to most Platinum games.

[@Sabu8000]

Just stumbled over this channel today. I am really pleasantly surprised to find a channel talking about games in a deep, detailed and educated way. Thank you for this!

[@prowlingmonkey]

If I didn't do it stylishly, can I really say I did it at all?

[@mexicanburrito2979]

The heart warming feeling of another episode. Love them all!

[@XanderHDD]

+MexicanBurrito Same.

[@aarcvault908]

Very interesting and comprehensive combination of overview, tutorial and summary of both top notch games. Well done.

[@MartinMas93]

Man, I love your videos.

[@SeraphimKnight]

Completing the final challenge in Vanquish is a spectacular feat on its own. To this day I haven't been able to do it. That last rocket-pack mob trio is just insane.

[@jhonejay1426]

which one is that?

[@SokiofSci]

I always love seeing your new videos, and especially this one. Vanquish is one of my favorite games of the last gen and I think it is criminally underrated.

[@sundrae]

This was my favorite game that my best friend lent me. It amazed me so much that it didn't become the hit i wished it to be. So complicated yet so simple and incredible to play. Im sad it never got a pc release... Sad day. Amazing video though! I had a class last year for User Experience and I showed some of your videos. Design by Subtraction, Mario's 4 Step Level Design and Why Nathan Drake Doesn't Need a Compass. These videos have gone a long way to help me think more about the user rather than of ways to fulfill my ego as a designer and trying to look smart with intricate puzzles that only I can solve.It's about having fun, for everyone. Love the series and keep it up!!!

[@anti-ethniccleansing465]

I saw a comment by someone else that said good release it for the PC about a year or two after you left your comment here.

[@DevilFox92]

Great video! The team Inaba + Mikami gave me 2 of my favourite games ever: Vanquish and God Hand (mastered to the highest level, believe me). My respect and admiration for them is beyond measure, especially for Mikami that led innovation in gaming like few others. Seriously, whatever genre he decides to try, he nails it. Someone please bring them together again to make God Hand 2 and Vanquish 2. I need it. The world needs it.

[@peacemaster8117]

+DevilFox I lie awake dreaming of a God Hand 2. Capcom will never make it, we need a "spiritual successor" fan sequel. I can't master God Hand for shit, but trying to git gud is some of the most enjoyable gaming I've ever done.

[@Klarden]

Good video. Platinum really tries to make their games in a way, that you WANT to play them again, like a lot of classic Capcom titles (a lot of Platinum team worked on previously often times). They hit the perfect game lengh/amount of content usually, where you don't get too tired one one playthrough so you're ready to try all you learned (and some nice unlocks) in your next playthrough. Way too many games nowadays are made with a completely opposite desire to make something that you experience 100% in one long exhausting playthrough and never return to the game again, because you've seen and tried everything, or because whatever variation there is, is done "for the sake of having it" and doesn't feel interesting enough to try it out.

[@dantetouchdown9030]

This, this is why i dont like the modern open world trend, the games mostly just feel bloated and stretched, with a movie slapped to it

[@TheTyupi]

You make the best gaming videos, no doubt. I absolutely adore this channel, and I hope it blows up soon.

[@Funkopedia]

I love this. I often hear people talk down on "easy" games, but fail to realize that a game can be both easy AND hard at the same time by having depth. And that complexity does not necessarily mean there's more content in a game.

[@pAWNproductionsDE]

It always makes me happy to hear people talk about vanquish. It's such hidden gem

[@WOWItsPhil]

Breadth VS depth! Perfect video (as always!)

[@GMTK]

+WOW! It's Phil THANKS BRO

[@SDub817]

Thank you for this, Vanquish was the first game I played from Platinum. The demo kicked my ass at first and I hated it, but then I saw a playthrough from a Sega employee and saw him doing all types of crazy shit. I went around looking for answers on how to do all the cool stuff I saw in the video, played the demo again, aced it, bought the full game and now it's been my favorite title from Platinum since then.

[@Aladelicous]

Man, Platinum more or less saved last gen for me.

[@vman339]

+Aladelicous This is the understatement of the year. In an age where many were just trying to make something to appeal to the most temporary attention span of people, they were making games that you would play years later. I personally mastered Metal Gear Rising and DMC 4, and am working on a Viewtiful Joe TAS showcase. I can safely say that adding replayability to your game pays off long-term, and anyone not playing games twice probably is in the wrong medium altogether.

[@abyzzwalker]

+Aladelicous From Software And Platinum for me :D

[@Stroggoii]

We got five Ninja Gaidens, too many God of Wars to care, three Castlevania of War, Dante of War, and the two shittiest DMCs to date. All were crap. If it wasn't for Bayonetta and MGR I'd have given up on the Hack n`Slash genre. Beat-em-ups/brawlers didn't do much better, what was there? That awful Bloodrayne game that was Bloodrayne in name only and Slain!? Meh.

[@zeusoftheaegis9038]

Stroggoii I'm sorry, while I'm all for praising Bayonetta and MGR (I've the plat) myself but saying that they saved the hack n slash genre is a gross overstatement....especially when you've listed the NG and GOW games. Granted they were both excellent 1 shot games from Platinum studios but neither one is harder than the Ninja Gaiden games (again I have the MGR Plat, only it comes close) nor has a better story and scale than the God Of War games. These two big HnS franchises carry the genre and have done so even when DMC dropped the ball with their shitty new Emo Dante in DmC and 2 of Castlevania's lack luster Lords of Shadow games. I don't care for others like Dante's Inferno, Darksiders etc but I'd love to see a MGR sequel and Bayonetta 2 on PS3. Just don't say that the NG & GOW games are bad since they are the big names in this franchise.

[@Stroggoii]

GOW stopped being fresh or enjoyable after 2 least you really identify with Kratos' murder for the sake of murder personality. And Ninja Gaiden kept getting easier from Sigma onwards. Ninja Gaiden 2 was fun, beautiful looking and had a cute sort of plot similitude with The Dark Sword of Chaos that made you feel at home if you're a fan of the NES games. But they were the same overthreaded ground from past generations. Bayonetta felt new. And counting Darksiders for Hack and Slash is super naive, it's clearly a Zelda clone with just a bit more combat than Link is used to. You're never expected or required to actually master the combat system in those games but you sure as hell are expected to dungeon crawl, solve a billion puzzles and play errand boy for everyone with a speaking role who isn't outright evil and even for some who are.

[@1groovigyrl]

Mark. You are an amazing KZbinr who is not afraid to speak his mind. Your videos open my mind to all the possibilities when making game. I am about to release a game and i use YOUR vids to make it. I love your channel! Gmtk (that's what the cool kids say. get on board) open my eye to the real reason why my favorite game are so cool. And show me game I love like downwell. Boss keys is just as amazing as we see how you think through this series. Keep it up!

[@zetetick395]

Heheh! ....Perhaps should have ended with _"Sometimes I wish we lived in a parallel universe where _*_Vanquish_*_ was a Mega-Hit, but here we are.....With Gears of sodding War 4"_ XD

[@Crowbar]

I hope Vanquish comes to PC so we can play with 60 fps or more

[@GMTK]

+Crowbar Yeah, I could go for a PS4 re-release too, right now.

[@jonko82]

+Game Maker's Toolkit I would love a PS4 rerelease but I think it's unlikely considering that it didn't do very well, saleswise, when it first released. But then again, we got a hidden gem like Beyond Good and Evil - which sold poorly originally - rerealesed on the PS3 and XBOX360 so there is hope. Now if only Ubisoft would get on with making the sequel. Game Maker, I'm curious, have you played Beyond Good and Evil? And if so did you enjoy it?

[@GMTK]

+jonko82 Yes and yes!

[@leonelc29]

+Crowbar Yes, yes please.

[@noelshen1580]

pcsx2

[@KazeVongola]

I'm glad to hear others liked this game as much as I did. I think it was a very underrated game and it certainly was memorable at the very least. I still remember starting a harder playtrough as soon as I finished the game for the first time just to try out all the things I've learned and to test myself.

[@luisronaldofigo]

+Kaze Vongola what is sad is that the only reason reviewers put it down was that it didnt have an online multiplayer .

[@nonlegend]

if I had the money, I would pay for a sequel to Vanquish myself.

[@galvanizeddreamer2051]

We all would.

[@PhillipAmthor]

@@galvanizeddreamer2051 even jesus and chuck norris would

[@atabinator]

When designing the game, do the developers come up with the high level strategies themselves? Or are they simply found by players accidentally? Things like animation cancelling don't seem like tactics originally intended by developers but exploits that players find only through practice. How do developers account for this?

[@GMTK]

+batchi It's hard to know whether some of this stuff is intentional. Platinum is all about cancelling (you can cancel any move into a dodge in nanoseconds in Bayonetta) so I'd be surprised if they never tried to cancel a reload during dev. I think the physical complexity of pulling it balances out the fact that it's a "cheat" As for stuff that's truly a bug - it's down to the developer to figure out whether it's hurting the game (if it's creating a dominant strategy in singleplayer, or killing the balance in multi) and patch it out, or decide it's cool and leave it in. Stuff like animation cancelling and all the crazy bullshit from Melee has become the bedrock for certain multiplayer games so bugs aren't all bad ;)

[@JONIMASAKIS]

+Game Maker's Toolkit can you give the actual meaning of platinum games?

[@jesusdiaz270]

+batchi In Platinum Games scenario, I thinkk they just look for this things. But, it's known that things like combos in the original Street Fighter II were accidents, exploits, that later were acknowledged by developers with the Super SFII giving score points for using these combos. So, in the end, it's something that must be looked game by game.

[@CH-fp6gj]

+batchi As a designer I can say that most of us look to create synergy between systems, making sure they work well together to add depth as the video discusses. Sometimes you find unintended strategies during the development process which you either keep in the game or remove depending on the target market for the game and if it breaks the game by being an easy dominant strategy. Hope that helps.

[@DeathBringer769]

Sometimes it's intended, sometimes it's completely unexpected emergent gameplay once all the gameplay systems and mechanics combine.

[@MegapiemanPHD]

Vanquish is so good man. So good.

[@chickenroyalty9233]

Glad i bought this game on a whim, didn't know how much depth there was, excited to get back to it.

[@danielsatira2271]

You, sir, have made me remember how to love games the way I used to love them before. While everyone loves a good story (which is my bias in games), we should never forget the element of depth that some games actually offer. It's funny how I usually overlook this element and I admit that I've become very jaded and very quick to judge a game without even trying to have fun. At the end of the day, we, the players, are mainly responsible on how we can best enjoy the games we play. Thanks for this! :)

[@tacticalochoa1310]

+Game Maker's Toolkit Wow. Now I have an even greater appreciation towards PlatinumGames and their works. Hell, I'm aspiring to be a video game designer and PlatinumGames is one of the game companies that I really want to work with the most.

[@SXYORANGEJUICE]

When I watch this episode about depth and mastery, the first example that comes to mind Super Mario 64, my favorite game of all time. This was my first game and I still come back to play it to this day. Even after all these years, surprisingly, I am still learning new things. I remember when I was a kid, I went through most of the game without knowing how to long jump. Through the years I would go from just beating the game to completing it 100%. The reason I keep coming back to it and playing it over again is because I'm STILL learning new things. Things like shortcuts, glitches, and new tricks to implement into my play through. I will watch a video on youtube of someone doing a backflip off of a cliff and forward diving to reach an area and I'll think to myself, "Woah, I can do that!?!" Though the developer may not have exactly expected players to do that, It's definitely held my attention all these years.

[@SoShiBias]

There's a GDC talk by Atsushi Inaba-san where he shares how they build the depths of the mechanic in their games, how players can finish their game with just going through only the surface level, but gradually learning something deeper the more they play. Their philosophy really shows in their works. The more you play the more you learn and by putting the new skills in work, you get more out of the mechanic itself. Bayonetta is such a game and I'm glad I pointed it out in my review. Playing Platinum Games has always been like this, the first-time was filled with thrills and the more you play, you appreciate their games more. That is why their games have longevity even though they are short at times.

[@NestanSvensk]

Gread video. I had never played a Platinum game until I played Vanquish last year together with a friend. I've never been into the brawlers, but I grew up on shooters and seeing what that game did with the genre was inspiring. It is indeed very sad that no other game in the genre has tried doing something similar. For those who have not seen in, I recommend checking out the speedrun of Vanquish from SGDQ 2015 (at least, that's when I think they played it) where a guy beats it using only one hand. That's what I call mastery!

[@KarianDespri]

Vanquish was one of my favourite games for xbox360. I was always so sad when I'd bring it up and everyone in the room would look at me like I had two heads because they had no idea what I was talking about. When I saw your video posted here with Vanquish in the title, I almost lost it; this game has so much going for it. I wish it were more popular ;.;

[@feisty-trog-12345]

This video made me finally realize why I love sequence breaking in Metroid games so much. Sequence breaks in these games require the player to have some deeper understanding about either techniques (Wall Jumps, Shinespark) or knowledge about the worlds layout. For example in Metroid Zero Mission you can skip activating the ziplines in Kraid and the Acid Worm bossfight by doing Horizontal Bomb Jumps most players will never even know about that technique, but the devs knew and left it there as a great incentive for master players. The main thing I like about Zero Mission is that the devs were encouraging these strategies so much. There are many places were there are out of place destrucible blocks. For example during the escape from the temple there are missile blocks that are useless to normal players, but allow those experts who have skipped the Screw Attack to complete the game anyway. The depth in these games is not simply a result of deep skillsets, but rather their integration into the level design, which amplifies the depth and reward for players greatly.

[@AnthPerri]

So good to hear somebody talk like this about Vanquish. Love this game, for all these reasons.

[@Sergeeeek]

If you want a multiplayer first person medieval fighting game with incredible depth you should play Chivalry: Medieval Warfare. Tthough not so great for beginners, because of the lack of match making, it gets really good when you grasp basic mechanics and you REALLY start having fun. I just don't have words to describe how amazing this game is and how fun it is, you have to try it. Also Tony Hawks games are really fun too. I have THUG2 on my psp so whenever I have free time I just bust it out and practice a bit. That's a really deep game too.

[@Nihanter]

Discovered your videos two days ago... And I've watched it all! High-level production, very well put and amazingly edited, look foward for more!

[@paulstaker8861]

Volgarr the Viking: Double Jump to deal damage and then in mid-air, hold Down to bring your sword down dealing another damage instantaneously. Love it.

[@Alexandre-rt7xk]

+Paul Staker Yeah, Volgarr the Viking is a master class in game design IMO.

[@paulstaker8861]

Alexandre Belmonte and in pissing me the hell off lol

[@Vykrex]

Love Vanquish, and absolutely love the dissection of the metagame. Subbed.

[@designybits4709]

I love Vanquish! It's one of the most thrilling experiences regardless of how well you can play it :)

[@WirinelDuSaule]

This time I didn't learn anything but that was nonetheless a very well made and well thought video. Thank you for your awesome work Mark. As for my experience, I always try to master the mechanics from games I play, even games where depth isn't explicit , and when I learn how to do things that felt like exploits while still not breaking the basic game mechanics, I always feel awesome about it.

[@MellowGaming]

Vanquish is a hugely under appreciated game. Another one I've been playing that has a crazy amount of depth to master is Assault Android Cactus. There's a load of tiny systems in that game that elevate it above a regular twin stick shooter to something you can genuinely master with enough skill.

[@denzelromero4796]

It got boring after 3 hours, environment didn't change at all

[@carannar]

I'm glad that you brought up Tony Hawk. The amount of satisfaction I got from pulling of an incredible difficult stunt made me really feel like I really "mastered" the game. Few games have given me that feel.

[@justinl8791]

Great video, Mark. You actually convinced me to get Vanquish last weekend and I have been having a good time with it, even though I still suck and haven't been able to master boost dodging and melee cancelling yet. I actually had some reservations about getting it despite being a fan of everything Platinum due to it not being their trademark schtick, as in a full on spectacle beat em up game.

[@brandonmorel2658]

Thanks Mark! Your comment about every game can have at least a little bit of depth even games like Call of Duty is honestly great, it just makes me want to replay games so that I can find new strategies that I didnt catch on the first time through.

[@darkxarth]

Super Mario Maker is actually a great example of the three levels of skill and understanding that you explained. Learners: It's fun and easy to create a simple platforming level full of enemies and power-ups. It's also (usually) fun to play these levels. Players: You can use more complex techniques, like placing enemies in Bill Blasters or requiring power-ups to pass certain areas. Tricks like spin-jumping in SMW and NSMBU and speed-running make play just as fun. Masters: At this levels, creators can use exceptional design to create levels that emulate other platformers or even other level types, and design tricks like using firebars to hide doors or combining enemies in interesting ways provide additional variety. Players can make use of difficult skills such as P-Switch jumping and item wall-jumping to bypass certain areas entirely, or they might be required in super-difficult levels.

[@DeathBringer769]

We should never stop trying to learn though ;)

[@superstreetfighter14]

Dodge boost is kinda like the Wind Run in Ninja Gaiden games. Wind Run + Jump makes you cover large distances during combat.

[@Largentina.]

Probably my favorite videogame related youtube video.

[@Jonas-ob2sh]

I wish Platinum would create a game that is challenging and which has only one difficulty mode at some point in the future, Souls games have proved that you can be niche and still be super popular.

[@HunterForHire422]

This video is incredible and it showed how great platinum is at game design. I can't wait to go back into these games with this new knowledge.

[@TheBeatlesMadness]

Now coming to PC. Perfect time to revisit this video.

[@hemangchauhan2864]

Platinum games in general. Well, most. Also like to add Devil May Cry 3/4, and God Hand. Watch MikeKob's God Hand playthroughs, and donguri990's Devil May Cry 4's combo videos. +Game Maker's Toolkit

[@XenonG]

+Hemang Chauhan You forgot ChipCheezumLPs' The Wonderful 101 and Metal Gear Rising :)

[@hemangchauhan2864]

XenonG I was taking about non-Platinum games that have similar design philosophy, hence my examples.

[@Blackcloud288]

+Hemang Chauhan God Hand is Platinum though. Different name, but all Platinum staff are ex-Clover.

[@hemangchauhan2864]

Blackcloud288 Yeah...

[@KamikazeChinaman]

Donguri is God.

[@tomatosauce5775]

One game that this really applies to in my experience is sm4sh when me and my brother first got the game we were still button mashers and special spammers, but since we started at the same time we were always getting better than each other and advanced our playing of the game. We eventually learned how to consistently perform certain attacks and currently there are new factors like di and teching. This is why for us we are better than most people at the game, because we were always at the same skill level and got better accordingly.

[@gustavoalvespimenta9643]

Your videos are awesome. I like to see your incredible description about positives and negatives points from various games.

[@DonSwingKing]

Good video. I want to mention the Batman Arkham games. The Freeflow combat system is at first glance very simple. As a new player it isn't hard to defeat enemies, but as you progress you start to get better and to develop demands to defeat all the enemies with a perfect combo. You get new gadgets with time and you can all use them not only in Predator mode, but also in combat. Like the explsoive spray, that can be sprayed on the ground fast, without breaking the combo and then fired when enemies are near.

[@TheJayman213]

I have now watched every single one of your videos starting with your Link's Awakening analysis 2 days ago.

[@KeramatZMode]

ive clocked in more than 200 hours on vanquish... YOU CAN SHOOT ON THE GRENADE? WHAT?

[@PavloIscariote]

Platinum Game was the new Capcom, Vanquish and Bayonetta my favourite games!!!

[@seanloughran6714]

Vanquish was painfully underrated. What an amazingly deep and fun game. I think if ti was released tday with KZbin being more popular, it'd be a much bigger hit. I used to watch small clips of people pulling off insane combos.

[@drakonhebi3786]

I,ve been mastering Dark Souls for years and it,s so different how to learn to be good at. Great great video!

[@dantetouchdown9030]

There are still some things you missed! Like when using a grenade while sliding, Sam just drops it on the ground, this was a great video, i have nostalgia

[@DonMiguelLaBestia]

I would give you 2 thumbs up if I could! Thanks for making this, Vanquish is still my favorite shooter. You absolutely nailed why I love this game, Shmumps like Ikaruga, Hack-n-slash games, and Platinum in general.

[@leeadkins1360]

I must say you have a great style to your videos and I love the fact you reference it all. Adding to subscriptions list ;)

[@Aaronmac404]

Revisited this video after playing Bayonetta, and now, having played also the first collection of chapters from Vanquish and your video is so fucking on point. Brilliant work, Mark Brown.

[@foreignsgamingtech]

You mentioned THPS. That game is something much more than most people think, actually. You mentioned that it takes great skill to make longer and more complicated combos. But it goes even deeper, actually. Even though the community is relatively small right now, even less of the players are skillful enough to show what can be done in THPS games. Bugs and glitches can be used for benefit, controlled to the player's own needs, only requiring the dexterity to accomplish. Techniques based on glitches are so profound that most players know what a buttslap or a kubdrift is, and use those during gameplay, even though those are basically bugs. The community has long ago reached a point when scores don't matter - what you can accomplish with your skater is what matters. How you accomplish it is what matters. Does the person have a certain style, can he create a deep and versatile enough combination of tricks, transfers and techniques so that his run is compelling to watch even after over 15 years of playing the series? The surface of THPS has only been scratched by the 99% of the people who had played it. The other 1% are the ones who understand what THPS is about. And even less of that actually know how to use the possibilities the games give the player. I will link you to a few videos I consider great (there are far much more, most of which were lost during the years). Considering your interest in deep mechanics used in games, I think THPS may prove to be very interesting. A transfer video - kzbin.info/www/bejne/moO5eap3faiajMk A no manual video (a line created with the intention of never touching the ground) - kzbin.info/www/bejne/nKOTk2R9r55kf8U A more recent video of what is considered cool in THPS right now - massive amounts of glitching and creative integration of those into combos - kzbin.info/www/bejne/r3unlnmIltd2ldE

[@GMTK]

+foreign's gaming tech Thanks for the info - I *love* Tony Hawk's but I don't know about half this stuff. Very interesting, thanks.

[@foreignsgamingtech]

+Game Maker's Toolkit if you haven't heard of it - there's a free mod for THUG2 called THUGPro, that adds tons of levels from previous games (thps3-thaw) into one game, adds a working online server and gives a lot of new possibilities for character and park creations and is basically the dream of any THPS fan. Just google it and go the reddit page mentioned in the wiki.

[@DeathBringer769]

Never stop learning ;)

[@TheDudesPerspective]

I feel like the first two vids are just some amazing runs that prove Mark's point about depth and mastery. The last clip I believe is just takig it too far. Sure, it's amazing that some are able to learn all those glitches, be able to pull them off consistently and pedict their behaviour (because we all know how crazy glitches can be), but why? It doesn't even look like Tony Hawk's at that point. I guess that's where you go when you have nowhere else to go, but imho, the guys could just try a new game? There are plenty other good genres and game series besides Tony Hawk's, and I feel like the massive amounts of time they probably invested could have been better spent discovering a new passion. You can love more than one thing. Anyway, my point is, 99% of the players just scraping the surface is bs. Considering the general difficulty of games at that time, a lot of people probably finished TH games (cause they were far from hard), and by the end-game levels the game basically teaches you how it's meant to be played through certain missions (like the C-O-M-B-O letters) which become quite hard towards the end, compared to first tries. By this point is where you realize the whole level is a massive playground just for that purpose, so you never have to just skate from A to B. You can do a sick combo as you ride around the level, and also transfer from a path (such as electric wires) to some rails or a fence on the ground that goes towards your destination. As far as I remember, no matter what your objective was, it was always easiest if you did it in one combo. So yeah, I would say a lot of people have seen the depth of TH games, it's just that, maybe 99% chose not to go full god-mode on those games or beyond that. The glitch video fits the levels of exilation meme :D Every video game probably has this group of extremely hardcore players (I was in the Left 4 Dead one, and I could argue that a way higher percentage of people missed the depth of L4D, than they did with Tony Hawk's; but that's another story). However mastering a game's mechanics pretty much happens when you fall in love with a game, and starting to discover and abuse its hidden mechanics and bugs is what happens afterwards. This doesn't necessarily add to the fun. Figuring out THPS is about traversal, momentum and rythm is pretty obvious when you get to the end-game, and if you want to perfect this and become the ultimate combo machine, that's a choice.

[@Anna_Rae]

Im sure this might be why shmups and racing games like F-Zero don't become popular, it's unfortunate.

[@guillermocereijidolopez4657]

Great video, so underrated game...

[@neon-kitty]

Mirror's Edge is a great example of this, as well. Lots of simple moves which can be strung together to form complex combos which often open up new shortcuts or faster ways to traverse a known path.

[@ahmh1000]

This brings back fond memories when i was mastering S4 league bit by bit, seeing a cool wall jump here. combining it with a melee weapon just to get that slight extra distance to score or get a kill. Learning to combine jumping with dodging and blocking at the same time and using that same move to hit enemies midair. Jumping just before placing a wall to block doors and disallow anyone from going over or under it. Running for a bit then jumping to rapidly change direction and continue running past 3, 4, 5 enemies while avoiding all their attacks.

[@DB-zl2sv]

Vanquished also had a resource management aspect in that the best to improve guns was to pick up ammo for it when you had max ammo already. Thus there is a depth to it that revolves around not using certain weapons or shuffling weapons around so you always only pick up upgrades and not ammo.

[@NigerianSeafood]

another beautiful example of Mikami's masterful gameplay design and one of the highest cieling action games i've ever played is the tragically misunderstood god hand, there's a LOT of forward thinking within the mechanics of both vanquish and god hand.

[@aortaplatinum]

I've tried to get into Vanquish twice, once with mouse & keyboard, and once with a 360 controller. I'm really excited to give it another go with my Switch Pro Controller so I get an ergonomic input device and full analog movement, along with the fantastic advantage of gyro aim, making up for not using a mouse. It's one of few Platinum games I haven't finished and loved so I'm looking forward to it!

[@angledcoathanger]

Mastering Virtual On was a great experience. Your jump automatically faces you towards your enemy, and eventually you learn to cancel jumps to face them instantly. Every dash will lock you into a certain direction for a certain timeframe and you have one attack per dash, but you can learn wait for you opponent to dash and attack first and then dash at an acute angle to them, leaving them vulnerable to your attack. There was an absurd amount of depth in the dash alone.

[@hollowedhope]

Your closing statement mirror my feelings exactly. This game deserves more than a cult following

[@frealms]

Always a good day when there is a new video by you. Love the work, just wish the currency exchange wasn't so crappy lately so I could chip in a bit.

[@Ivotas]

Playing this now for the first time and while I'm definitely not a master I just can't stress enough how much fun this game is. This game deserves a lot more recognition besides being a cult classic.

[@newtonthenewt1400]

A great example in Rocket League of this depth is that you can "land" on the ball in mid-air to get a bonus double-jump, or taking off of the top or sides of a goal, off of the ceiling, or have another player bump you so that you can use your double-jump at any time, and not have to be subject to the standard 1.5 seconds you have to double-jump after you make your first jump. (By double-jump, I also mean dodge)

[@Efithor]

Don't forget about MGR's blade canceling, which allowed you to chain animations together for some really insane combos.

[@YouMakeMyMotorRun]

It's a great concept and I never thought of this "levels" of mastery, and this philosophy in game design, outside of fighting games. After all, traditional fighting games are the ultimate kind of videogame designed for both "button-mashers" and expert estrategists. Thinking back in time, another example of this concept that pops in my mind could be Prince of Persia: The Warrior Within, where both the platform system and the seemingly endless fighting system could be rewarding in all levels of gameplay: you could finish a fight with basic one-handed combos, or combine them with weapon-steals and two handed combos, and even use your environment for dodging and even use dodging to create powerful attacks in a continous flow. Every combination worked in the end, when you had to face your enemies. That's just an opinion, though, but it feels good to think again in a new perspective about a game that I so deeply loved some years ago (when I was still an angsty teenager... those were the days)

[@OnyDeus]

I just want to say: There are very few KZbin channel comment sections that are as friendly and supportive as yours. Speaks numbers about the quality of your content and the quality of our game design community.

[@hariman7727]

One of the best examples of being awesome at a game like Vanquish is Halfcoordinated's run of Vanquish at one of the Games Done Quick events. With one hand, he has more skill and speed at that game than most players, and he shows just how ridiculously fast you can move in that game, and how impressive the movement skills for doing damage can be.

[@avocadopicture]

Original DMCs, it all starts with DMCs! Including Platinum Games :) For me it was DMC3. First playthrough surely felt like a tutorial there, second - like an advanced tutorial. And then i finally started pulling off some serious moves and scores. But i felt the real greatness behind the game when i returned to it a few years later, probably even after DMC4, and discovered even more mind-twisting and devastating techniques. Masterpiece.

[@spidermand100]

This was fascinating. I really enjoyed Just Cause 2 for its parachute grapple hook combo and how after hours of using it I could glide and fly through the air extremely fluidly. I was disappointed with Just Cause 3 and I think this video showed me why. they stripped out all the depth in favor of breadth. It became easy to fly and grapple. Instead of mastering it, I felt cheated by the overly easy mechanic. Great video as always, keep up the good work!

[@highestsettings]

I think a good way to describe depth is essentially the ability to do lots of different things with a small set of inputs. An example of this is Super Mario 64. You've got a jump button (which with good timing can become a triple jump and with clever use of inputs you can do that triple jumping without moving even though you're supposed to), you've got an attack button (which can manipulate movement, stop yourself in mid-air, get a little extra height or dive towards something to increase speed), and you've got a crouch button (which again when used in conjuction with other inputs can increase your movement options, ground pound, long jump, etc) and obviously you can walk or run with the analog stick in any direction. There are 4 different types of inputs you can make (which can be categorised and are attached to a certain button, so combinations make sense), but various combinations of those inputs give you tonnes of movement options to the point of being able to express yourself. When you have an indepth level of knowledge of these core mechanics and how to use them together, you feel like you have complete control over the character, to the point of almost feeling like it's an extension of yourself in a way. It's about being able to achieve a lot with a little. Simple to learn, difficult to master. That's the secret to a good game like this. The Japanese are amazing at that type of game play. Even stuff like PacMan, the only input you have with that game is which direction PacMan is going to go next. But the ghosts behave in different ways so knowledge of the game allows you to perform better. PacMan cuts corners but the ghosts don't so if you need to get away quickly you can just go through and area with lots of corners.

[@losalfajoresok]

Man, I love Vanquish, even though I never finished, and I never heard about the techniques you explained for the master players. I will try them!

[@anti-ethniccleansing465]

I don’t know how it’s possible to start that game and not finish it! I couldn’t even put it down once I started it.

[@losalfajoresok]

@@anti-ethniccleansing465 I finished a couple of days after I wrote this!

[@anti-ethniccleansing465]

@@losalfajoresok That is awesome… And more than that… It is super awesome that my comment reached you even though you wrote your comment four years ago! KZbin has obviously changed their algorithm so that we can reach commenters who left comments many years previous, where it used to be that we could only speak to people who left a comment around six months to no more than a year prior, max. Cool! Thx for the reply. :)

[@anti-ethniccleansing465]

@@losalfajoresok P.S. what did you think of the game??

[@losalfajoresok]

@@anti-ethniccleansing465 an amazing shooter, one of the freshest and funny twists on a genre that is very hard to innovate!! Is one of my favorite shooters ever, for sure

[@Masarofia]

Wonderful 101 is such an amazing game... If you have a WiiU, get it. And stick with it a bit because yeah, the beginning is quite overwhelming. But when every pieces come together, what a pleasure. It's amazing to play, it's amazing to watch. This game is pure joy! I kinda mastered Bayonetta on PS3 and DMC4 on PC with a keyboard (yes it's doable) and love them so much!

[@grantcooper5799]

I just love your in-depth reviews! I want to be a game writer and programmer someday, and I learn a lot from your videos. You could be a college professor teaching game design if there is a university cool enough to have that class.

[@IamFatcat.]

I do not know about you, but sometimes I think that the Japanese are the ones who make such original games in the field of triple A. I LOVE Vanquish. Being a Cover Shooter is so fun and creative. It helps to distinguish itself from other shooters and that gives it value. Many complain that it does not have multiplayer online but I see it more like putting it because all the shooters have a multiplayer. Magnificent game.