Caving Descenders - Overview and Principles

[@thatoneguy454c]

I have used a carabiner brake, definitely a last ditch maneuver. My profession for the last 5 years is technical rescue, rope access, and confined space rescue. The knowledge i have gained from it makes caving an obvious choice of hobby.

[@josephtmerli1673]

Derek Bristol's videos are light years ahead of everyone else's. You will not find better quality videos re caving SRT gear and technique anywhere. Thank you Mr. Bristol.

[@alexandrosmargiolis8460]

I would like to add a small detail to that great video. When you pass a rebelay, after you check that everything works well, you take off your long cowtail, but instead of leave it free, you can "attach" it to the lower rope, lower from your braking hand. So when you reach the next rebelay, it will be already "installled" in the loop of the upper rope. In this way you make things a little faster.

[@ExploringCabinsandMines]

Love it! I've been watching climbing videos and they haven't been meeting my needs, my situation in mine shafts which are more similar to caving needs.

[@christiandecelle4048]

Thank you so much for these videos

[@DerekBristol]

You're welcome.

[@hanswoast7]

Stay safe! Practice regularly. Always double check, preferably by a 2nd pair of eyes. Have fun!

[@Upsidedownorangejuice]

In NZ we tend use 5 bar racks with no frill's two ropes wide (for doing abseils where you need to pull the rope down by abseiling off the mid point on the rope), they connect via the U bend, some use their gumboots as brakes on long open vertical descents if need be, or most like my self rap round their back into there non dominate hand as their "e brake" or control on non vertical descents. ~cool fact, look them up ~new subscriber really digging the content.

[@bayangpunla6991]

Thanks for the tips

[@z50king29]

Thanks for the video. Great timing; I've been looking around for a descender. I'm going with the BMS micro with dual bars

[@DerekBristol]

Good choice. Most cavers I know favor the long frame version despite the slightly higher weight and length. The short frame version can be difficult to use on thicker and dirtier ropes, especially if you're a smaller person. I'm 200 lbs and still favor the long frame because it allows me to spread the bars further apart to reduce friction.

[@z50king29]

@@DerekBristol thank you. I'm going with the longer micro, the 10 inch

[@pbalister]

Nice video. I am intrigued by your suggestion about using a belay from above for novices. It seems like the risk of tangling the two ropes outweighs any benefit. At least that is what I've always heard.

[@DerekBristol]

It certainly can become an entanglement concern... depends on the situation. I didn't learn with a belay, and most do not. I've seen it used commonly when training kids, and I've used it when teaching my own kids to rappel. I'm more likely to trust an adult to appreciate the critical importance of maintaining the brake hand.

[@pbalister]

I was taught the importance of the brake hand by a friend who explained it to me very briefly and very loudly when I let go of the rope with my break hand. (I was much lighter on stiff rope with a lot of friction and not moving. No excuse, and the brake hand is firmly imprinted in my mind since)

[@pbalister]

Derek Bristol Thanks, context on the use of top belays for rappel is really important.

[@dennisbehan1590]

Great video. I use a Petzl Rack and find it cumbersome when transitioning from ascending to descending on the same line. It’s awkward to safely tie a lock off the device when the line you’re locking off to isn’t under tension. I’m considering changing the top bar out to a wider machined one with a stud similar to some of the micro racks I have seen. Any thoughts on this? Many thanks for all the great videos!

[@francois8655]

Hi Derek and congratulations for all your educatives videos. I landed here because I am looking for how the PETZL descender STOP is functionning, I mean about the handle. I was convinced than there is an 'auto-lock' function allowing only the descent when actionning the handle, and blocking the system when not pressed ... However at 6:39 I can observe you are descending without even touching the handle ... Is there something disfuncioning ? or can you explain please ? ( If so, maybe it is not the safe system I am looking for)

[@jean-pierreleroux7745]

yes, interesting!

[@Gamper1]

when stops get too old they arent so good at 'stopping'

[@Fawkes42]

3:15 There are cavers who don't like to get dirty? How does that even work??

[@DerekBristol]

I'm being somewhat facetious, but there are legitimately cavers who don't allow anyone with an aluminum descender to use their ropes because it leaves a residue of aluminum oxide. So the irony is that they don't want their cave rope to get dirty. It would be more appropriate to classify them as sport-rappellers than cavers.

[@igneous061]

Beautiful and informatice video.....btw i was thought that there is only one way to put rope into stop/simple and only one way to lock it off, and ofc everyone among us is discoureged from using rack-bar for desending because of that critical error person can make when puting rope into a rack bar....

[@DerekBristol]

Every descender has risks and failure modes. With a rappel rack, the so-called "suicide rig" involving threading the rope through the bars backwards is something to be careful of, and is a key reason for executing a safety check before every rappel, but is easily managed. Regarding bobbins, Petzl doesn't demonstrate some of the lower friction rigging methods in their literature, but it is commonly used in the US where we are often on 11 mm rope. I will cover the details in a separate video dedicated to the use of bobbins. There are multiple ways to lock-off any of these descenders.

[@TheBem1969]

I would also recommend the book on rope.

[@juanantoniocortesfernendez4295]

El Petzl Stop, está mal configurada la cuerda.

[@pynshailangsyiemiong9137]

Very informative and please do a video on how to do rigging for vertical cave

[@DerekBristol]

Start with this one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bGjdhnZte8-batE

[@trevethan82319841]

I'm curious if anyone has tried a cmc mpd device for caving I'm curious how it would handle

[@sparrowmalfoy2306]

What are the things that lock onto the cave walls?

[@ashleymiller4697]

Where does one learn the names of all the different equipment and how to use each one? I’ve never been caving or anything like that but was thinking of learning how and wanted to do proper research first. I can’t find any informative videos on the topic 😩

[@DerekBristol]

www.derekbristol.com/getting-started

[@ashleymiller4697]

Thank you!

[@appak001]

Another great video and i’m really looking forward to the companion videos. Was that a subtle joke at the end: talking about care and maintenance whilst descending on a stop without having to squeeze the handle?k x

[@DerekBristol]

Just a coincidence. Most people probably wouldn't be that observant, but you are correct that the Stop I'm using in that clip is so worn that the brake doesn't engage on the newer and thinner diameter rope I'm using. Time for a new upper pulley.

[@counterterror101]

Indestructible Rope Technique :). How widely used is European rigging in American caving?

[@DerekBristol]

Alpine style rigging is becoming much more common in the US. Most of what I see these days is a hybrid approach, i.e. very abrasion resistant rope mixed with rebelays and deviations. The southeast is about the only remaining bastion of IRT.

[@karstoutdoors1606]

I'd like to add a bit to what Derek said. I cave in the TAG (TN, AL, GA) area of the southeast, mentioned below. He is right, you don't see many rebelays in many of the TAG caves and 11mm Pit Rope is the rope of choice for single rope techniques. Many cavers in this area are very concerned with cave conservation and seem to think that placing bolts for rebelays will "damage" the cave. As a result, they are hesitant to place extra bolts for rebelays. European cavers, from what I understand, are more willing to place bolts for rebelays to keep the rope off of edges and for cleaner rappels. Caver safety is a main priority when placing bolts for rebelays. In addition, 9mm and 10mm ropes are used more often in Europe, which is another reason why rebelays and Bobbin rappelling devices are more common there. By the way, good video.

[@DerekBristol]

​@JASON VOORHEES What exactly is necessary? Either IRT or Alpine technique could be used in TAG. The high density of simple entrance pits creates more opportunities for IRT to work effectively, but the choice is mostly a function of local history and social norms. I believe the view that bolts are damaging to caves and show a disregard for conservation are attitudes that developed to help defend and rationalize the decision to use IRT. I don't think IRT was developed with the goal of conservation.

[@unerbittlich]

what are the reasons to use a full body harnes?

[@DerekBristol]

In general it would be in situations where one might fall and be inverted. I don't use a full body harness. I believe some professional rope access systems require one.

[@unerbittlich]

@@DerekBristol thank you,

[@davidhume2842]

You mention Titanium descenders. Can you provide any examples?

[@DerekBristol]

I don't immediately remember mentioning that, but I've seen a few custom built titanium brake-bar racks, and there's a Ti-Scarab. Definitely not mainstream.

[@davidhume2842]

@@DerekBristol Titanium brake bar racks? Now that is intriguing. I've looked into the scarab, and I think I'm leaning more to the stainless steel (I'm on the rope access/rescue side). I love your channel, you do great work, and keep posting videos.

[@andreasudarsono9118]

Good vidio 👍👍

[@DerekBristol]

Thanks!

[@sheerun]

You must be joking that the practice is to descend without backup