Frog Ascending System for Caving - An Overview

[@jarretchalmers8553]

Yet another fantastic video. Thanks for the detailed descriptions Derek

[@utahcaver9115]

Thanks for the great intro video! I often send beginners to this video before getting out and hitting the wall with them for the first time.

[@DerekBristol]

You're welcome.

[@JeffWurst]

Thanks for posting this and other videos on vertical caving. I've occasionally been training people for vertical caving trips and have been refering to this and the Frog Ascending Technique video as an excellent starting point for study before they show up to practice. Yours are the only SRT how-to's I've seen that don't have something wrong with them.

[@DerekBristol]

Thanks again Jeff. I suspect there are many things wrong in my videos, but I appreciate the vote of confidence.

[@RVelarde]

Greetings from Monterrey, Nuevo León...land of cavers and climbers. Great video. Thanks.

[@crazyt1483]

Wow it is interesting to see how things change between teachers as for one my caving club had the hand jammers (hand ascender) and the cows tails as separated items. Our cows tails are practically identical but our jammers have a safety line going up to a small Maillon where it connects to the hand ascender and a 2nd bit of rope used as a foot loop. We also have a HMS though that maillon so we can clip it away like our tails and in some situations we prefer a 3rd tail

[@RoboCNCnl]

Thanks for sharing !

[@justlex4624]

I am doing a school project about spelunking and your videos have been supper helpful!!!

[@renopearl317]

Cavers rescue spelunkers

[@leechjim8023]

You need to become a REAL caver!

[@jgbelmont]

Great video I learned quite a bit. Clear close up video and easy to understand information. Other channels should do the same.

[@DerekBristol]

Thanks!

[@manuelsaavedra6852]

Gracias por el video, me ayudo la técnica para mejorar mi trabajo !

[@lukemazza6027]

Great video for beginners. I'll be remembering this for when I need to share it with others. One thing I noticed is that you cover the length of the long cowstail but not the short. In my experience that's one of the more confusing areas for new cavers setting up a frog for the first time.

[@DerekBristol]

There's been recent discussion on the subject of short cowstail length in the effort to develop training materials for the NSS Vertical Training Commission. Here's a long explanation I wrote up: "When you ascend up to a rebelay and reach the knot, you slide your footloop ascender up until it’s just 1-2 cm below the knot, but not jammed into the knot. You then stand up in the footloop until your Croll is just underneath the footloop ascender (this is where the system is fully collapsed). It’s at this point that you would clip the short cowstail into the anchor itself. This can be into the loop or loops above the knot, the rebelay connector (maillon or carabiner), or possibly the hanger on the rebelay bolt. The short cowstail needs to be long enough to go from the central connector, past the Croll, past the footloop ascender, past the rebelay knot, past the rebelay loop, and maybe 2-4 cm longer for some margin. If you add up all these lengths you come to around 40-45 cm, so that’s the shortest you want it to be. If it’s any longer then you tend to hang lower than needed below the anchor whether you’re passing it going up or going down, which requires the loop above the rebelay to be longer, which wastes rope and increases impact forces if the rebelay fails."

[@lukemazza6027]

@@DerekBristol I think that explanation makes a lot of sense. Typically I found that the first frustration beginners encounter from having incorrectly configured cowstails is an inability to change over from ascending to rapelling. That is, they unclip their short cowstail only to find that their descender isnt taking up the weight and their upper ascender is. I wonder if there needs to be some rule of thumb that's relative to the length of your long cowstail to account for that needed difference in length. I always used the method prescribed in ACT which has served me and others well enough: "The length of the short cowstail should be adjusted so that when the cowstail is loaded and your elbow is positioned over the harness maillon, the caribiner can easily be held in the palm of your hand."

[@DerekBristol]

@@lukemazza6027 I'm a little confused about your description of a change-over. Typically the short cowstail is not used in change-overs. It can be an issue that the long cowstail, which is usually the tether to the footloop ascender, can become weighted if that ascender isn't moved as low as possible before shifting weight onto the descender. The long cowstail length is usually adjusted so that it is barely within reach when weighted. It's also important to take as much slack as possible out of the descender before making this weight shift (i.e. when removing the Roll). I personally don't like the description in ACT even though it gets the length approximately right for most cavers. It would suggest that taller people need a longer short cowstail, but I don't believe height should be a factor.

[@lukemazza6027]

@@DerekBristol I've seen plenty of people use their short cowstail as part of a changeover. It's one of the suggested techniques in ACT. The last time I was in a club setting (college days) it was the standard taught to beginners, I assume because it's much easier to comprehend attaching a rack when you're not working around your croll being in the way.

[@ExpeditionFERAL]

Very helpful!

[@apiletal]

Have you used the “joanet knot” for the cowtails? This knot is also called “Juanito” is very strong, use lees rope, and can be made in hand and past intro biner ir made directy trought a ring ir anchor. I use this knot and i think is more secure and versatile. I wish your expert opinion. Thanks for all your time giving to us.

[@TomekKochman]

@Óscar Jiménez Peñalver Don't use this knot for cowtails. It's like you would use clove hitch. It's good knot, I personally like it, but it's not designed for that. It's suicide.

[@christopherthomas8722]

I have a Petzl Voltige. Would this be usable as a caving chest harness? I was thinking a using a triple locking HMS carabiner with the wide part securing the fabric loops in the center, then running an adjustable webbing loop straight down to the Croll. Or should I use a maillon?

[@DerekBristol]

You can definitely use that type of chest harness. You'd need to experiment with the right type of connector. I don't have any first hand experience. It probably won't work to use multiple links like you describe. A carabiner plus a small maillon will extend the distance between the chest harness and chest ascender, and when adjusted properly for efficient climbing the top of the chest ascender comes within just a few inches of the bottom of the chest harness. I also find carabiners or maillons at the center of a chest harness to be uncomfortable. It can dig into the sternum. I favor some type of adjustable webbing.

[@gmancolo]

If not using 5.5 mm (~13.7 kN) Titan cord for tying foot loops, any other recommendations? 7 mm (~10.4 kN) regular static cord seems a good balance of thinness/durability (static climbing-rated cord at REI ranges from 4 to 8 mm). With the 1-inch webbing foot loops on your frog-footloops page, it appears the loop knot is an overhand, and apparently a barrel knot for the carabiner? If that is an overhand, I'm wondering about the loop cinching up around the feet.

[@DerekBristol]

6-8 mm cord, or even 8-11 mm rope is often used for footloops. It's just a little less static than Dyneema/Spectra, and I'd probably favor 1-inch webbing if going for a cheaper option. Yes, those are overhand knots for both the foot-loop and attachment to a carabiner. An overhand knot in webbing will not cinch.

[@PierreFarrugia]

Fist of all thanks for your top notch videos and information, can one use a normal abseil harness with this system ?

[@ericfredrickson129]

Great video Derek. You didn't talk much about your top ascender. I've always used a petzl handled ascender, but what do you think of the Kong Futura for caving use?

[@DerekBristol]

I mostly use a Petzl Basic because it’s smaller, lighter, cheaper, and restricts the bad habit of pulling too much with the arms. I don’t have any experience with the Kong Futura Hand ascender but do own the Kong Futura Body (chest) ascender. It is junk. Cam teeth wore down in a matter of just a few trips and the ascender would not catch the rope. The handled ascender looks like similar construction so I’d probably stick with the Petzl Ascension if you favor a handled ascender in your system.

[@leechjim8023]

@@DerekBristol It is probably chincy, chinky chinesium!!! If you want Kong, play Donkey Kong!

[@thorbj1302]

Hi, on your cowstail you use the barrel knot to attach the carabiner. I tried this knot on my cowstail (same setup as yours) but i find that the barrel knot opens up slightly or get draged out.. this does not feel safe, so my question is if you have a special way of doing it, where you attach the carabiner in the knot or if I might are doing it wrong. The rope i am using is 10mm. Hope you understand my question!

[@DerekBristol]

Thorbjørn Øvrebø I use the technique in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hKuWlK2KhrmGl5o

[@counterterror101]

Excellent intro to the frog system. I just started using a chest harness similar to yours but from another manufacturer. It this type of harness really meant to have a carabiner to connect both sides at the front?

[@DerekBristol]

counterterror101 Yes, although the use of the carabiner is optional. It’s more comfortable to leave it open, but a little more efficient if closed with a carabiner. The AV Speleoshoulder is designed to work the same way.

[@mr34]

What is the chest harness carabiner for? I use the same chest harness, but without the biner as with most people I cave with.

[@diy_Lab]

Super kanał 👍łapka w górę👍😃

[@dsfgohs]

I have the same boots as you!

[@Jawesome1Shazam]

I learned the hard way in an Alabama multi-drop cave to have you're non-locking carabiners on the long cow's tail and the footloop to be oriented so the gate faces away from you. I thought my Petzl Basic was clogged with too much mud to ascend when I was mid-rope, unable to move it or take it off. Quickly realized one of the carabiners clipped to my Croll on my harness. (I have an extra Croll on my short cow's tail I clip to the rope when I'm mid rope and need an extra connection point)

[@benhazell470]

Great videos…could you do a dedicated video on setting up cowstails?

[@DerekBristol]

Good suggestion. I'll put it on my list.

[@renopearl317]

What harness is that? NSS caver here. Need to get a low attachment harness and frog system. I need all recommendations.

[@DerekBristol]

MTDE Amazonia. It does have a very low attachment point. My favorite seat harness for very vertical caves where I expect to spend a lot of time hanging in it. Can be purchased in the US from Elevated Climbing. www.elevatedclimbing.com/products/amazonia You can also see a review here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iYOXqGpoe9Jkjsk

[@leechjim8023]

I was so fascinated with vert caving at one time. But I have found that there is just too much potential for problems and screwups, especially when you are tired and exhausted. One little FUCKUPPP or brain fart and you,r a Goner! It ain,t for me. It's sad, but true.

[@rachelhasbruises]

If you had a dollar for every time I've sent someone this video......

[@jimleech2364]

Auto locks are no good. They can twist open.

[@DerekBristol]

I have been using auto-locking carabiners for decades and have never had one twist open. Not saying it's not possible, but this is not a commonly reported problem. Any piece of gear can be made to fail given certain conditions. Screw-lock biners can also open or break. Maillons can unscrew and it's easier to forget to close them. With any piece of gear it's wise to know the risks and limitations and have a system of redundancy in the unlikely event of a failure.

[@jimleech2364]

@@DerekBristol Maillons are best; certainly for the harness attachment. The nut screws tightly. As for remembering, it is part of the critical standard mental checklist as other parts of the gear. It is MUCH easier for autolocks to open by rope or lip contact possibly augmented by mud and dirt. I don't want you to become another statistic.

[@DerekBristol]

@@jimleech2364 Again... I have never had an auto locking carabiner open. I don't want to become a statistic either. If you have statistics showing that maillons are safer than auto locking carabiners then please share. Otherwise I will take this as your opinion. My opinion and experience differs. There are pros and cons to maillons, screw-lock carabiners, and auto-lock carabiners. None of them is best in all situations or for all applications.